but he also claimed scientific control, mathematical and scientific precision. Not to mention convincing..
I didn't need 36 hours of a class to save me from raw ignorance just because I didn't know the difference between throroughly and throughly. Now I find there really wasn't a difference anyway.
quote: I didn't need 36 hours of a class to save me from raw ignorance just because I didn't know the difference between throroughly and throughly.
It only took 2 minutes or so for VP to teach that, not 36 hours. 28 minutes if you count the whole segment, context and all. Sin and death are not an imaginary problem.
Or to protect me from devils, or to give me all of the answers in life. Personally, I don't feel redemption is so ineffective that it requires such extraordinary methods to implement.
I read this thread with great interest as I have given this very subject some thought since I've been away from the boards.
In the area where I live (and this is a couple of years ago now, I've not had contact since), there were very few TWIers who could be described as financially or socially successful, if the standard by which success is measured includes: making over 35k/year, salary, and having the ability to assess social situations accurately.
We were told, as little'ns in the fellowship, that the reason things weren't growing apace was because we weren't trying hard enough, believing big enough, etc. "There are people out there hungry for the word!" was the rallying cry.
Well, that may be so, however, were they hungry for the word we were s'posed to be offering is another matter entirely. During the witnessing events in which I was compelled to participate, I watched members of the fellowship select a target, then lob any number of biblical statements which were meant to get at the heart of the matter, but which missed the mark entirely. In part, because I saw people foist themselves on individuals and couples that were occupied in other business, some of it important. I have never worked in *sales* myself, but, I'm fairly sure that successful salespeople are able to read when their continued presence is actually costing them business rather than gaining it.
After these dismal events, which included accosting strangers in parks, shopping malls, and, yes, Doctor's waiting rooms, the club-over-the-head from leadership was to remember that we weren't "selling anything." Um. yeah. Right.
We were told to stay away from people who were obviously, or seemingly obviously, wealthy, because "they won't have hearts to hear." But, I suspect that was more disingenuous behavior. The fact is...when someone is prospering, feeling pretty good, and interested in life and maybe seeking a place to learn about a religion, in this case, the bible and Christianity...how likely are they to listen with respect to someone who tells them that they have no shot without the word as this organization teaches...that they are doomed to fear...and that they are sold out to the world because they put their education and career above everything else. It's an awfully poor sell, if you ask me.
The very last contact I had with a TWIer was a few months ago...she called, I didn't check the caller ID, and I answered. We chatted for a moment and she asked what I was doing with myself. I mentioned I'd returned to school and accomplished a few other small things, and she said...to me..."That's great! You were always so smart and funny, if you could just come back, then we could do some great witnessing together about how God has blessed you so much!"
Erm. This from the same woman who told me that finishing my education was a vain and prideful notion and that my jealousy of my then-husband was the root cause. Um, no...it was a promise he made to me when we were first together, his PhD first, then my returning to school. Funny...while we were together, after we sorted out his PhD, the *word* said that my education was superfluous--that from him and from leadership.
So...if that's the package they're selling, and I think it still is, there won't be all that many takers from the pool of people who already have their lives together and can recognize the hard sell when they see it.
I found the classes to be boring, tedious, and condescending...long on spectacular self-aggrandizing statements and short on actual logic. I was never able, in good conscience, endorse them...and have only now to feel guilty about those whom I convinced to sign up. I feel very responsible for doing such a damaging thing.
people who for some reason could not or would not accept society rules for success.
it was the world and a bad bad thing for you!
join twi and you will loved and accepted and finaly a success because how many people did YOU get born again?
i remember a lady who was in twi they had a fine beautiful home, yes it was where the class was run!
her hubby was a successful man, business type traveled alot! drank alot.
twi kept the little woman busy while he lived a life he wanted.
one day she asked me why in twenty years she never got ONE person to take pfal, and I had so very many sign up and finish the class.
the answer was clear to me and I told her I didnt do anything God gives the increase! yeah i believed that, I did and that is why i got so hurt when i was marked.
in two decades giving of her home and much much money to twi and she still didnt understand it.
she was a sad lonely woman looking so good and successful doing twi bidding .
her precious hubby who provided so well for twi and her, died at a very young age alone in another country in a hotel room.
when i was selling pfal , i was young and wanted to be successful I wanted to help people I wanted to belong to something.
these are normal desires.
twi robbed many of the life we should have had .
im angry a little because they were not young they KNEW and made a fine living OFF the work and love the young and dare i say stupid or unknowing of how manipulating people can be for their own gain.
they didnt love me. they didnt care about my life or where or what would happen to me, they had the plan and it worked for them.
to me it was very unloving.
i do not regret i have spoken to one old friend fromhigh school an old man now haha like me and he is clergy never had children.. sold out to twi still . states away from any "earthly family or friends".
they are ok, they just wont consider the life they could have had.
the world was sold as a bad place and twi was a good place.
After these dismal events, which included accosting strangers in parks, shopping malls, and, yes, Doctor's waiting rooms, the club-over-the-head from leadership was to remember that we weren't "selling anything." Um. yeah. Right.
They were a little more blatant here.
The reason that they gave us that we weren't selling was that it was because *we* were too boring. That NOBODY could stand the blandness of the fellowship.. I think she was just projecting.
I think they drank a little too much of their own kool aide..
it got to the place that leadership was sold on the concept that we weren't supposed to have fun, we were supposed to "move the word".
she said...to me..."That's great! You were always so smart and funny, if you could just come back, then we could do some great witnessing together about how God has blessed you so much!"
Yep.. they are looking for more gold to salt that old iron mine with..
people who for some reason could not or would not accept society rules for success.
I would agree, but I think they were rather successful at portraying their dismal form of "success" as being REAL. It looked real enough to me, but I like others was rather young.
Yeah.. 36 hours of class, to learn the keys to success like it hasn't been known.. a real "bargain" and shortcut. Then all of a sudden it's not quite good enough. Well, more study.. intermediate class, seminars, advanced class-
Real success always seemed to be an illusion just around the corner.
quote: Yeah.. 36 hours of class, to learn the keys to success like it hasn't been known.. a real "bargain" and shortcut. Then all of a sudden it's not quite good enough. Well, more study..
What about college? I didn't need 2 yrs of college to learn that Freud was nothing more than a glorified religion bigot. But I had fun there and I'll take my 2 yr degree even though that's not quite enough for the elite.
This all reminds me of something. We all know what the figure of speech called hyperbole is: exaggerating the largeness of something, like Bart Simpson saying don't have a cow or in Genesis where Nimrod was building a tower "to reach unto heaven", but in this thread Mr. H has exaggerated the SMALLNESS of something. Very effectively, I might add.
quote: I didn't need 36 hours of a class to save me from raw ignorance just because I didn't know the difference between throroughly and throughly.
Another example of this is in a Grateful Dead DVD. Comedians Al Franken and Tom Davis (SNL) are coaching Dead keyboardist Brent Mydland as to how to introduce them to the crowd. After Brent walks away Al Franken says, (sarcastically) "Oh, this is just GREAT! We're doing comedy in front of the Dead audience and we're being introduced by BRENT! He's been with the band for 5 minutes. Oh, this is just GREAT!"
At that time (1980), Brent had been with the band for just over a year and a half, not 5 minutes. This was a short time compared to the rest of the band on board since the 60s, but again, Al Franken exaggerated the smallness of something. Is this still hyperbole in reverse, or is there a specific word that covers exaggerating smallness instead of largeness? Anybody know?
I would agree, but I think they were rather successful at portraying their dismal form of "success" as being REAL. It looked real enough to me, but I like others was rather young.
Yeah.. 36 hours of class, to learn the keys to success like it hasn't been known.. a real "bargain" and shortcut. Then all of a sudden it's not quite good enough. Well, more study.. intermediate class, seminars, advanced class-
Real success always seemed to be an illusion just around the corner.
Now now now Mr. Hammeroni, don't you know why real success was always just around the corner? Don't you??? It was because you weren't do all of the five all the time. When we weren't witnessing (releasing), prayer (s.i.t), reading-studying(retaining), tithing and fellowshipping, that WAS the cause of things not coming together for us for the more abundant life.
And DON'T forget, it you were taking in more light (from studying) than you were releasing (witnessing) you were really putting yourself out of balance and whack and no damn wonder things weren't working for us!
Talk about imaginary problems and impossible cures!
in this thread Mr. H has exaggerated the SMALLNESS of something. Very effectively, I might add.
well, thanks for the compliment, I think.. :)
"The WORD like it hasn't been known since the first century" (except to bullinger, stiles, etc. etc.)
"ninety five percent of your questions about the bible will be answered"
"first, read what's written. If it is wrong, *I* will tell you.."
"I've forgotten more about the holy spirit field than that little fellow will EVER KNOW".
"If you do EXACTLY as *I* tell you, you too will manifest the greatness of the power of God.."
Pretty exaggerated claims, are they not? I think when I did "exactly" as he said, I only convinced MYSELF that I had the "great power of God"..
But besides that, this boasting of being the best thing since the earth cooled- that was part of the marketing. Anybody get close enough, and it puffs itself like a puffer fish.. looks a lot bigger than it really is.
The "success" of TWI was largely determined by largeness, putting on a good production, a good show.
Now now now Mr. Hammeroni, don't you know why real success was always just around the corner? Don't you??? It was because you weren't do all of the five all the time. When we weren't witnessing (releasing), prayer (s.i.t), reading-studying(retaining), tithing and fellowshipping, that WAS the cause of things not coming together for us for the more abundant life.
And DON'T forget, it you were taking in more light (from studying) than you were releasing (witnessing) you were really putting yourself out of balance and whack and no damn wonder things weren't working for us!
Now it all makes sense! It was a self-perpeptuating problem, with a self-perpeptuating cure with a self perpeptuating problem.
Introducing more "cure", caused more "problem". More "problem", you need more "cure".
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Ham
"you could sit around home, studying the bible, but how would you like to grow ten years spiritually in one?"
surrrrrre.
"you NEED to go WOW.."
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Ham
So, there I was, six months later..
"so mister, you know that feeling, you walk out and a car nearly hits you, the FEAR..."
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Ham
The first session of the class "my people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge"
I question vic's "knowledge of da bible" as being the precise meaning of this..
But what is this but another imaginary problem? "well, I'd a better learn what da man is saying so I don't get destroyed..."
I wasn't "destroyed" the day before, what made that day any different?
I think vic was far more salesman than "man of the cloth" so to speak..
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Free Soul
If you mean snake oil salesman, then yeah, he had it wrapped up real good & we bought it.
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Ham
Well, that's the easy way to say it
but he also claimed scientific control, mathematical and scientific precision. Not to mention convincing..
I didn't need 36 hours of a class to save me from raw ignorance just because I didn't know the difference between throroughly and throughly. Now I find there really wasn't a difference anyway.
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ex70sHouston
Advertising has to have one of the following. It either has to meet a need or creat a need.
The one thing that a salesman has to have is excitment. If he is excited about his product he can sell it.
I could never sell the class because I wasn't excited about it.
The excitment I saw when I first went was what got me in. After the class it was gone.
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Ham
True. Excitement only goes so far on its own. I remember trying to say how exciting it was, and people looked at me like I was from Mars.
Well, ex-70's, you answer the question how I can sell more modern, digital mouse traps.
Breed more mice..
I think the second method to sell, if you can't find or make a need:
salt the mine.
right- get as many successful, influentual people on your team as you possibly can.
Sure- they're getting "results".
Making $100,000 + a year.. nice house, nice car..
Just ignore the fact that they spent four years in college.. four or more years in graduate work, etc.
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frank123lol
Mr. Ham,How right you are,most of the twier are making exactly that in this area where I live.
Yes,They all went to college,Working men and women have to bust thier butt to make evrn close to that,
Yes it is easy to proclaim abundance if you have the bucks to show it.
There are no average "joes " around this area still in twi.
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Ham
Yep.. I thought as much. I guess everybody else is expendable. No average Joes anymore.
It makes sense though. They seem to be trying to get their fangs into the upper level of society.
Trying to get back some prestige, some influence.. some respect.
Just salting the mine.
I don't think they are getting many converts though.
But like the little boy trying to sell the pencil for a million dollars, he said "well, if I could just sell ONE.."
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johniam
quote: I didn't need 36 hours of a class to save me from raw ignorance just because I didn't know the difference between throroughly and throughly.
It only took 2 minutes or so for VP to teach that, not 36 hours. 28 minutes if you count the whole segment, context and all. Sin and death are not an imaginary problem.
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Ham
It didn't take a 36 hour class to save me from sin and death either.
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Ham
Or to protect me from devils, or to give me all of the answers in life. Personally, I don't feel redemption is so ineffective that it requires such extraordinary methods to implement.
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QuietThinker
Hi Mr. H...
I read this thread with great interest as I have given this very subject some thought since I've been away from the boards.
In the area where I live (and this is a couple of years ago now, I've not had contact since), there were very few TWIers who could be described as financially or socially successful, if the standard by which success is measured includes: making over 35k/year, salary, and having the ability to assess social situations accurately.
We were told, as little'ns in the fellowship, that the reason things weren't growing apace was because we weren't trying hard enough, believing big enough, etc. "There are people out there hungry for the word!" was the rallying cry.
Well, that may be so, however, were they hungry for the word we were s'posed to be offering is another matter entirely. During the witnessing events in which I was compelled to participate, I watched members of the fellowship select a target, then lob any number of biblical statements which were meant to get at the heart of the matter, but which missed the mark entirely. In part, because I saw people foist themselves on individuals and couples that were occupied in other business, some of it important. I have never worked in *sales* myself, but, I'm fairly sure that successful salespeople are able to read when their continued presence is actually costing them business rather than gaining it.
After these dismal events, which included accosting strangers in parks, shopping malls, and, yes, Doctor's waiting rooms, the club-over-the-head from leadership was to remember that we weren't "selling anything." Um. yeah. Right.
We were told to stay away from people who were obviously, or seemingly obviously, wealthy, because "they won't have hearts to hear." But, I suspect that was more disingenuous behavior. The fact is...when someone is prospering, feeling pretty good, and interested in life and maybe seeking a place to learn about a religion, in this case, the bible and Christianity...how likely are they to listen with respect to someone who tells them that they have no shot without the word as this organization teaches...that they are doomed to fear...and that they are sold out to the world because they put their education and career above everything else. It's an awfully poor sell, if you ask me.
The very last contact I had with a TWIer was a few months ago...she called, I didn't check the caller ID, and I answered. We chatted for a moment and she asked what I was doing with myself. I mentioned I'd returned to school and accomplished a few other small things, and she said...to me..."That's great! You were always so smart and funny, if you could just come back, then we could do some great witnessing together about how God has blessed you so much!"
Erm. This from the same woman who told me that finishing my education was a vain and prideful notion and that my jealousy of my then-husband was the root cause. Um, no...it was a promise he made to me when we were first together, his PhD first, then my returning to school. Funny...while we were together, after we sorted out his PhD, the *word* said that my education was superfluous--that from him and from leadership.
So...if that's the package they're selling, and I think it still is, there won't be all that many takers from the pool of people who already have their lives together and can recognize the hard sell when they see it.
I found the classes to be boring, tedious, and condescending...long on spectacular self-aggrandizing statements and short on actual logic. I was never able, in good conscience, endorse them...and have only now to feel guilty about those whom I convinced to sign up. I feel very responsible for doing such a damaging thing.
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pond
They wanted stupid people.
people with problems.
people who for some reason could not or would not accept society rules for success.
it was the world and a bad bad thing for you!
join twi and you will loved and accepted and finaly a success because how many people did YOU get born again?
i remember a lady who was in twi they had a fine beautiful home, yes it was where the class was run!
her hubby was a successful man, business type traveled alot! drank alot.
twi kept the little woman busy while he lived a life he wanted.
one day she asked me why in twenty years she never got ONE person to take pfal, and I had so very many sign up and finish the class.
the answer was clear to me and I told her I didnt do anything God gives the increase! yeah i believed that, I did and that is why i got so hurt when i was marked.
in two decades giving of her home and much much money to twi and she still didnt understand it.
she was a sad lonely woman looking so good and successful doing twi bidding .
her precious hubby who provided so well for twi and her, died at a very young age alone in another country in a hotel room.
when i was selling pfal , i was young and wanted to be successful I wanted to help people I wanted to belong to something.
these are normal desires.
twi robbed many of the life we should have had .
im angry a little because they were not young they KNEW and made a fine living OFF the work and love the young and dare i say stupid or unknowing of how manipulating people can be for their own gain.
they didnt love me. they didnt care about my life or where or what would happen to me, they had the plan and it worked for them.
to me it was very unloving.
i do not regret i have spoken to one old friend fromhigh school an old man now haha like me and he is clergy never had children.. sold out to twi still . states away from any "earthly family or friends".
they are ok, they just wont consider the life they could have had.
the world was sold as a bad place and twi was a good place.
i bought that .
what a lie.
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Ham
Hello Quiet Thinker, nice to meet you.
They were a little more blatant here.The reason that they gave us that we weren't selling was that it was because *we* were too boring. That NOBODY could stand the blandness of the fellowship.. I think she was just projecting.
I think they drank a little too much of their own kool aide..
it got to the place that leadership was sold on the concept that we weren't supposed to have fun, we were supposed to "move the word".
Yep.. they are looking for more gold to salt that old iron mine with..
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Ham
I would agree, but I think they were rather successful at portraying their dismal form of "success" as being REAL. It looked real enough to me, but I like others was rather young.
Yeah.. 36 hours of class, to learn the keys to success like it hasn't been known.. a real "bargain" and shortcut. Then all of a sudden it's not quite good enough. Well, more study.. intermediate class, seminars, advanced class-
Real success always seemed to be an illusion just around the corner.
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QuietThinker
I saw a lot of that, too....so sad.
And nice to meet you, too, Mr. H.
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Nottawayfer
That's is the best statement I've heard so far. That is soooooooo TRUE!
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johniam
quote: Yeah.. 36 hours of class, to learn the keys to success like it hasn't been known.. a real "bargain" and shortcut. Then all of a sudden it's not quite good enough. Well, more study..
What about college? I didn't need 2 yrs of college to learn that Freud was nothing more than a glorified religion bigot. But I had fun there and I'll take my 2 yr degree even though that's not quite enough for the elite.
This all reminds me of something. We all know what the figure of speech called hyperbole is: exaggerating the largeness of something, like Bart Simpson saying don't have a cow or in Genesis where Nimrod was building a tower "to reach unto heaven", but in this thread Mr. H has exaggerated the SMALLNESS of something. Very effectively, I might add.
quote: I didn't need 36 hours of a class to save me from raw ignorance just because I didn't know the difference between throroughly and throughly.
Another example of this is in a Grateful Dead DVD. Comedians Al Franken and Tom Davis (SNL) are coaching Dead keyboardist Brent Mydland as to how to introduce them to the crowd. After Brent walks away Al Franken says, (sarcastically) "Oh, this is just GREAT! We're doing comedy in front of the Dead audience and we're being introduced by BRENT! He's been with the band for 5 minutes. Oh, this is just GREAT!"
At that time (1980), Brent had been with the band for just over a year and a half, not 5 minutes. This was a short time compared to the rest of the band on board since the 60s, but again, Al Franken exaggerated the smallness of something. Is this still hyperbole in reverse, or is there a specific word that covers exaggerating smallness instead of largeness? Anybody know?
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FullCircle
Now now now Mr. Hammeroni, don't you know why real success was always just around the corner? Don't you??? It was because you weren't do all of the five all the time. When we weren't witnessing (releasing), prayer (s.i.t), reading-studying(retaining), tithing and fellowshipping, that WAS the cause of things not coming together for us for the more abundant life.
And DON'T forget, it you were taking in more light (from studying) than you were releasing (witnessing) you were really putting yourself out of balance and whack and no damn wonder things weren't working for us!
Talk about imaginary problems and impossible cures!
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Ham
well, thanks for the compliment, I think.. :)
"The WORD like it hasn't been known since the first century" (except to bullinger, stiles, etc. etc.)
"ninety five percent of your questions about the bible will be answered"
"first, read what's written. If it is wrong, *I* will tell you.."
"I've forgotten more about the holy spirit field than that little fellow will EVER KNOW".
"If you do EXACTLY as *I* tell you, you too will manifest the greatness of the power of God.."
Pretty exaggerated claims, are they not? I think when I did "exactly" as he said, I only convinced MYSELF that I had the "great power of God"..
But besides that, this boasting of being the best thing since the earth cooled- that was part of the marketing. Anybody get close enough, and it puffs itself like a puffer fish.. looks a lot bigger than it really is.
The "success" of TWI was largely determined by largeness, putting on a good production, a good show.
Wikipedia article about puffer fish
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Ham
Now it all makes sense! It was a self-perpeptuating problem, with a self-perpeptuating cure with a self perpeptuating problem.
Introducing more "cure", caused more "problem". More "problem", you need more "cure".
Sounds more like a heroin addiction..
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FullCircle
Hamsters on a wheel for da Lord
Always busy and always moving, but never getting anywhere.
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Ham
Should have saved this for a "caption this" thread..
"I can do all nine, all the time"
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