I hope this thread can get back to the main discussion. There were a lot of great points made early on.
Are we still discussing the authority of a woman as it pertains to either the workplace or society? Or are we now discussing how it relates in a marriage?
I find that the media stereotypes both men and women unfavorably. If you're a man you're either a big hotshot with a taste for cheating, or a dumb brute who is helpless.
If you're a woman then you're either a b*tch who can't keep her skirt down in between major corporate takeovers, or you're just a dumb bunny waiting for your man to teach you a lesson in life.
Maybe what we need is an introduction of the next point and a defining of terms. I hate to see threads like this degenerate into just one or two people throwing stones at each other.
Really, aren't we in essence talking about how we all in general deal with each other? Do we base a person's worth on their gender? Do we limit our view of what that person can accomplish according to whether or not they have mammary glands?
It's early. I'll write more later. Got to get the kids off to school.
My last post included the current issue between John, Jean and Cathy but it also included the authority of a woman in the workplace as well as my opinion that a woman in the White House would be an advantage and why. Perhaps that was missed.
I guess the only woman I picture is Hilary. That would be disasterous. But there are women out there that make sound decisions, and think logically and aren't evil, but do those kind of people make it in our political system.
It would be a sin to allow her to be the representative of the first woman in office; gosh we would be sent back to the dark ages.
But I do believe a woman has much to offer in that line of work even though that wasn't our arena too many years past they have proven themselves to be logical and resourceful I think.
And thanks for acknowledging I did go back to point. :)
The only problem I have invisioning a woman in the White House is that the only possible example IS Hillary.
I don't see any other politically active women for this 2008 election. There are too many interesting men presently running.
Have I missed somebody (other than Hillary, of course)? Because she would have to poke her head up above the minions pretty soon to be seriously considered.
unfortunately Condolisa has the race and sex thing against her. She does seem to have a strong ethic and I might consider her for office. She has been strong through many slams against her person.
I wonder if a woman running for office puts her life at risk? Especially if they are competing with the evil Hilary.
You mean as in they could end up sleeping with the fishes?
I overheard a group of black women cutting Condolisa to shreds because she didn't act black enough. :blink:
I was talking to my son about having more than one president in office at the same time and representing different parties. He said in Sweden they have a committee of presidents (of a sort) but even though the process is slower they have recognized one man cannot be sufficient to have the knowledge of military, finance, business, etc sufficiently. So it stands to reason if you have someone strong in the major needs area you could run a smoother country. He also felt a woman in office would be interesting and hoped in his lifetime he got to witness that. And even though he and I are not brains in this area he felt our country would eventually get it and said we are a young country that has to learn the hard knocks before we understand the importance of where we place our positions.
I was tickled that he wanted a woman in office though and he complimented me by saying he'd seen me back off people with my logic and protective mode in gear and he'd like to see that in the oval office. He's just prejudice though cause I'm mom. :)
Wiki's representation of Swedish Government is really quite accurate. King Gustav, indeed, is a figurehead.
Discrimination is heavily frowned upon in Scandinavia, though, as anywhere else, there are problems.
I really don't see any women at the present time, at least currently active in politics, who would make a viable president. Of course, I think that about the men, too.
I think women proving a point without the intentions of giving their best efforts still hurt the respect factor towards women that are in authority.
An example: somewhere around 1975 there was a woman that became a Firefighter/EMT and she had a baby while employed. She brought the child into the station where a nursery was provided. That alone wasn't the problem but her wanting to nurse in the station in front of the men was. They were uncomfortable with it and she felt that was discriminative towards her. She didn't do us any good in that endeavor. Common sense alone was thrown out the window. IMHO why should the entire system of Firefighters/EMT have to be in an upheaval to accommodate a woman that felt it was proper to whip it out and feed her child in front of them?
Our authority in any endeavor will only be respected if we show respect to ourselves and others in the process. Bulldogs have hurt us for years. But I think we are gaining respect more today because there isn't quite the same fight factor there was at the start of the women's movement.
au·thor·i·ty /əˈθɔrɪti, əˈθɒr-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uh-thawr-i-tee, uh-thor-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -ties.
1. the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
2. a power or right delegated or given; authorization: Who has the authority to grant permission?
3. a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.
4. Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government: They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.
5. an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
6. a quotation or citation from such a source.
7. an expert on a subject: He is an authority on baseball.
8. persuasive force; conviction: She spoke with authority.
9. a statute, court rule, or judicial decision that establishes a rule or principle of law; a ruling.
10. right to respect or acceptance of one's word, command, thought, etc.; commanding influence: the authority of a parent; the authority of a great writer.
11. mastery in execution or performance, as of a work of art or literature or a piece of music.
12. a warrant for action; justification.
13. testimony; witness.
[Origin: 1200–50; earlier auct(h)oritie < L auctōritās; r. ME autorite < OF < L. See author, -ity]
—Synonyms 1. rule, power, sway. Authority, control, influence denote a power or right to direct the actions or thoughts of others. Authority is a power or right, usually because of rank or office, to issue commands and to punish for violations: to have authority over subordinates. Control is either power or influence applied to the complete and successful direction or manipulation of persons or things: to be in control of a project. Influence is a personal and unofficial power derived from deference of others to one's character, ability, or station; it may be exerted unconsciously or may operate through persuasion: to have influence over one's friends. 3. sovereign, arbiter.
1. The power to enforce laws, exact obedience, command, determine, or judge.
2. One that is invested with this power, especially a government or body of government officials: land titles issued by the civil authority.
3. An accepted source of expert information or advice: a noted authority on birds; a reference book often cited as an authority.
4. A quotation or citation from such a source: biblical authorities for a moral argument.
2. Power assigned to another; authorization: Deputies were given authority to make arrests.
3. A public agency or corporation with administrative powers in a specified field: a city transit authority.
4.
1. An accepted source of expert information or advice: a noted authority on birds; a reference book often cited as an authority.
2. A quotation or citation from such a source: biblical authorities for a moral argument.
5. Justification; grounds: On what authority do you make such a claim?
6. A conclusive statement or decision that may be taken as a guide or precedent.
7. Power to influence or persuade resulting from knowledge or experience: political observers who acquire authority with age.
8. Confidence derived from experience or practice; firm self-assurance: played the sonata with authority.
I was once told that in our government the real power lies with the Senate Majority leader. So maybe we should start there and then shoot for a woman president.
Btw Chatty - I didn't see your post when I posted my request for a return to the subject. Maybe we were typing at the same time. Maybe I just got lazy and posted without reading - it was early!
An example: somewhere around 1975 there was a woman that became a Firefighter/EMT and she had a baby while employed. She brought the child into the station where a nursery was provided. That alone wasn't the problem but her wanting to nurse in the station in front of the men was. They were uncomfortable with it and she felt that was discriminative towards her. She didn't do us any good in that endeavor. Common sense alone was thrown out the window. IMHO why should the entire system of Firefighters/EMT have to be in an upheaval to accommodate a woman that felt it was proper to whip it out and feed her child in front of them?
I think there is a discrete way to nurse and there is whipping the boob out while trying to get the kid to latch. A mom should realise that some might not want to see her boobs in a non-sexual way and should go the discrete route. If mom does this then I think moms should be able to nurse wherever and whenever they feel like it. It is natural and it is the best thing for a baby. People need to not be so uptight. I think there was a story a few years back about a woman getting thrown our of a Wendy's for nursing. Craziness. Apparently, some of the patrons couldn't choke down their grease burger while seeing a baby have some of mommy's milk in their periphery.
Btw Chatty - I didn't see your post when I posted my request for a return to the subject. Maybe we were typing at the same time. Maybe I just got lazy and posted without reading - it was early!
Thanks Dooj! And you did one heck of a detailed job there. :)
I think there is a discrete way to nurse and there is whipping the boob out while trying to get the kid to latch. A mom should realise that some might not want to see her boobs in a non-sexual way and should go the discrete route. If mom does this then I think moms should be able to nurse wherever and whenever they feel like it. It is natural and it is the best thing for a baby. People need to not be so uptight. I think there was a story a few years back about a woman getting thrown our of a Wendy's for nursing. Craziness. Apparently, some of the patrons couldn't choke down their grease burger while seeing a baby have some of mommy's milk in their periphery.
No question of it Lindy. Women can discretely feed their babes anywhere, which I did while in a room full of Navy men many a time. But I had me and the babe covered so no one saw a thing and I never made the guys uncomfortable. This woman wanted to do it in view, no covering, no consideration for the men around her.
Oprah? ah,,, no. Oprah comes off as though she is in the corner with the common man/woman, but I feel its because it sells. I often ask myself would she be doing this if there were no monetary return in it. If the station said Oprah. we'll let you do your show but we can't pay you. I don't think she would continue for very long.
Nursing is very natural but not so much in our culture. For that woman to make an issue of nursng when the men were uncomfortable definitely defeated the cause. Had she gone to a private location and been sensitive to those men, the arrangement might have worked.
there's definitely a time to fight for a cause and a time to use common courtesy around others.
In my opinion authority, no matter who holds it or wields it; it is never perfert. It is always in need of checks and balances. I think authority is nothing without being tempered with humility and compassion; and that otherwise is apt to just become an egocentric dictatorship.
The Virtuous Woman in Proverbs chapter 31: 1-31 quantifies in part what I feel is a good example of the Authority a woman in particular, as relating to that which she is expected to deal with on a day to day basis successfully; but not only that...it seems to address her perhaps inbred qualifications. I further think that the unique ways and make up of a woman is somewhat different than that of a man both traditionally and in some of the ways we process and apply knowledge.
I wonder about the inbred factors and modeling for both sexes. I do know we have gone far beyond our preset roles of yester year. I wonder too about the single parenting effects and the effects of the break down of standards in the world; How will they impact our children and how it will affect their ability to handle and deal with authority in their lives. That is a concern of particular to mothering and the authority of motherhood, Although that is somewhat a conditioned role, I know. Is Authority learned through modeling? Is it imbred? is it a combination? Myself, I think it is a combination but I am not certain. In order to be a good authority of a women figure do we need to teach it or model it for women and men differently or have our genetics predetermined this?
Qualifications affect the authority of a women; as well as they do a man. Qualifations always affect the results This is not to say that a man is more qualified than a woman...or a woman is more qualified than a man. I am wondering how we can demonstrate this in a way that men will respect and understand us more???? We may need to learn to share our authority in somewhat more clarified ways so that men can recognize and respond to it differently. Not in ways that define us as male versus female role players on the stage of life; but as respected friends, partners, and colleagues. Knowing the feeling is mutual and reciprocal.
Hey I don't deny that aI could be dreaming...although I am hoping and looking for a recipe!
In my opinion authority, no matter who holds it or wields it; it is never perfert. It is always in need of checks and balances. I think authority is nothing without being tempered with humility and compassion; and that otherwise is apt to just become an egocentric dictatorship.
The Virtuous Woman in Proverbs chapter 31: 1-31 quantifies in part what I feel is a good example of the Authority a woman in particular, as relating to that which she is expected to deal with on a day to day basis successfully; but not only that...it seems to address her perhaps inbred qualifications. I further think that the unique ways and make up of a woman is somewhat different than that of a man both traditionally and in some of the ways we process and apply knowledge.
I wonder about the inbred factors and modeling for both sexes. I do know we have gone far beyond our preset roles of yester year. I wonder too about the single parenting effects and the effects of the break down of standards in the world; How will they impact our children and how it will affect their ability to handle and deal with authority in their lives. That is a concern of particular to mothering and the authority of motherhood, Although that is somewhat a conditioned role, I know. Is Authority learned through modeling? Is it imbred? is it a combination? Myself, I think it is a combination but I am not certain. In order to be a good authority of a women figure do we need to teach it or model it for women and men differently or have our genetics predetermined this?
Qualifications affect the authority of a women; as well as they do a man. Qualifations always affect the results This is not to say that a man is more qualified than a woman...or a woman is more qualified than a man. I am wondering how we can demonstrate this in a way that men will respect and understand us more???? We may need to learn to share our authority in somewhat more clarified ways so that men can recognize and respond to it differently. Not in ways that define us as male versus female role players on the stage of life; but as respected friends, partners, and colleagues. Knowing the feeling is mutual and reciprocal.
Hey I don't deny that aI could be dreaming...although I am hoping and looking for a recipe!
ok explain this please more thouroughly, I dont get what you are saying here ... please don't jump down my thoat honey:) I just want to understand your post.
Sorry your terms on Qualication and Inbred Factors caught my eye: can you expound farther on the terms you used, I enjoyed your views but somethings are a little unclear to The Captain yes Captain Spiritural. :)
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doojable
I hope this thread can get back to the main discussion. There were a lot of great points made early on.
Are we still discussing the authority of a woman as it pertains to either the workplace or society? Or are we now discussing how it relates in a marriage?
I find that the media stereotypes both men and women unfavorably. If you're a man you're either a big hotshot with a taste for cheating, or a dumb brute who is helpless.
If you're a woman then you're either a b*tch who can't keep her skirt down in between major corporate takeovers, or you're just a dumb bunny waiting for your man to teach you a lesson in life.
Maybe what we need is an introduction of the next point and a defining of terms. I hate to see threads like this degenerate into just one or two people throwing stones at each other.
Really, aren't we in essence talking about how we all in general deal with each other? Do we base a person's worth on their gender? Do we limit our view of what that person can accomplish according to whether or not they have mammary glands?
It's early. I'll write more later. Got to get the kids off to school.
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FreeAtLast
dooj I am with you. Let's get the discussion back on track before this thread gets killed. There is still much to discuss on this topic.
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ChattyKathy
My last post included the current issue between John, Jean and Cathy but it also included the authority of a woman in the workplace as well as my opinion that a woman in the White House would be an advantage and why. Perhaps that was missed.
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FreeAtLast
I guess the only woman I picture is Hilary. That would be disasterous. But there are women out there that make sound decisions, and think logically and aren't evil, but do those kind of people make it in our political system.
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ChattyKathy
It would be a sin to allow her to be the representative of the first woman in office; gosh we would be sent back to the dark ages.
But I do believe a woman has much to offer in that line of work even though that wasn't our arena too many years past they have proven themselves to be logical and resourceful I think.
And thanks for acknowledging I did go back to point. :)
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krys
The only problem I have invisioning a woman in the White House is that the only possible example IS Hillary.
I don't see any other politically active women for this 2008 election. There are too many interesting men presently running.
Have I missed somebody (other than Hillary, of course)? Because she would have to poke her head up above the minions pretty soon to be seriously considered.
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rascal
Well if we wanted a woman in the white house...what about Condolisa Rice (sp?)?
She seems like a class act and strong.
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krys
I agree that she has the potential but she's not running as far as I know.
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ChattyKathy
Krys,
There aren't any others that I know of either. My hopes are for the future since I don't want her to be our first example. :)
Cathy,
She'd have my vote!
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FreeAtLast
unfortunately Condolisa has the race and sex thing against her. She does seem to have a strong ethic and I might consider her for office. She has been strong through many slams against her person.
I wonder if a woman running for office puts her life at risk? Especially if they are competing with the evil Hilary.
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ChattyKathy
You mean as in they could end up sleeping with the fishes?
I overheard a group of black women cutting Condolisa to shreds because she didn't act black enough. :blink:
I was talking to my son about having more than one president in office at the same time and representing different parties. He said in Sweden they have a committee of presidents (of a sort) but even though the process is slower they have recognized one man cannot be sufficient to have the knowledge of military, finance, business, etc sufficiently. So it stands to reason if you have someone strong in the major needs area you could run a smoother country. He also felt a woman in office would be interesting and hoped in his lifetime he got to witness that. And even though he and I are not brains in this area he felt our country would eventually get it and said we are a young country that has to learn the hard knocks before we understand the importance of where we place our positions.
I was tickled that he wanted a woman in office though and he complimented me by saying he'd seen me back off people with my logic and protective mode in gear and he'd like to see that in the oval office. He's just prejudice though cause I'm mom. :)
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QuietThinker
Wiki's representation of Swedish Government is really quite accurate. King Gustav, indeed, is a figurehead.
Discrimination is heavily frowned upon in Scandinavia, though, as anywhere else, there are problems.
I really don't see any women at the present time, at least currently active in politics, who would make a viable president. Of course, I think that about the men, too.
;-)
~QT
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ChattyKathy
If I understand it correctly they still come together to vote changes amongst themselves so no one person has ultimate authority.
(sorry for de-railing also)
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likeaneagle
I vote OPRAH for the next Pres!!!!!
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ChattyKathy
I think she has more power than the president now.
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QuietThinker
Hehehehe, Kathy :)
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ChattyKathy
I'm really not helping with the de-rail gig am I?
I think women proving a point without the intentions of giving their best efforts still hurt the respect factor towards women that are in authority.
An example: somewhere around 1975 there was a woman that became a Firefighter/EMT and she had a baby while employed. She brought the child into the station where a nursery was provided. That alone wasn't the problem but her wanting to nurse in the station in front of the men was. They were uncomfortable with it and she felt that was discriminative towards her. She didn't do us any good in that endeavor. Common sense alone was thrown out the window. IMHO why should the entire system of Firefighters/EMT have to be in an upheaval to accommodate a woman that felt it was proper to whip it out and feed her child in front of them?
Our authority in any endeavor will only be respected if we show respect to ourselves and others in the process. Bulldogs have hurt us for years. But I think we are gaining respect more today because there isn't quite the same fight factor there was at the start of the women's movement.
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doojable
So - How are we going to define authority?
Being the boss?
Having the most power?
Having the final say?
Having the capacity to lead a group of both men and women fairly and across the board?
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Source cited
au·thor·i·ty /əˈθɔrɪti, əˈθɒr-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uh-thawr-i-tee, uh-thor-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -ties.
1. the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
2. a power or right delegated or given; authorization: Who has the authority to grant permission?
3. a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.
4. Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government: They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.
5. an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
6. a quotation or citation from such a source.
7. an expert on a subject: He is an authority on baseball.
8. persuasive force; conviction: She spoke with authority.
9. a statute, court rule, or judicial decision that establishes a rule or principle of law; a ruling.
10. right to respect or acceptance of one's word, command, thought, etc.; commanding influence: the authority of a parent; the authority of a great writer.
11. mastery in execution or performance, as of a work of art or literature or a piece of music.
12. a warrant for action; justification.
13. testimony; witness.
[Origin: 1200–50; earlier auct(h)oritie < L auctōritās; r. ME autorite < OF < L. See author, -ity]
—Synonyms 1. rule, power, sway. Authority, control, influence denote a power or right to direct the actions or thoughts of others. Authority is a power or right, usually because of rank or office, to issue commands and to punish for violations: to have authority over subordinates. Control is either power or influence applied to the complete and successful direction or manipulation of persons or things: to be in control of a project. Influence is a personal and unofficial power derived from deference of others to one's character, ability, or station; it may be exerted unconsciously or may operate through persuasion: to have influence over one's friends. 3. sovereign, arbiter.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source
au·thor·i·ty (ə-thôr'ĭ-tē, ə-thŏr'-, ô-thôr'-, ô-thŏr'-) Pronunciation Key
n. pl. au·thor·i·ties
1.
1. The power to enforce laws, exact obedience, command, determine, or judge.
2. One that is invested with this power, especially a government or body of government officials: land titles issued by the civil authority.
3. An accepted source of expert information or advice: a noted authority on birds; a reference book often cited as an authority.
4. A quotation or citation from such a source: biblical authorities for a moral argument.
2. Power assigned to another; authorization: Deputies were given authority to make arrests.
3. A public agency or corporation with administrative powers in a specified field: a city transit authority.
4.
1. An accepted source of expert information or advice: a noted authority on birds; a reference book often cited as an authority.
2. A quotation or citation from such a source: biblical authorities for a moral argument.
5. Justification; grounds: On what authority do you make such a claim?
6. A conclusive statement or decision that may be taken as a guide or precedent.
7. Power to influence or persuade resulting from knowledge or experience: political observers who acquire authority with age.
8. Confidence derived from experience or practice; firm self-assurance: played the sonata with authority.
I was once told that in our government the real power lies with the Senate Majority leader. So maybe we should start there and then shoot for a woman president.
Btw Chatty - I didn't see your post when I posted my request for a return to the subject. Maybe we were typing at the same time. Maybe I just got lazy and posted without reading - it was early!
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lindyhopper
I think there is a discrete way to nurse and there is whipping the boob out while trying to get the kid to latch. A mom should realise that some might not want to see her boobs in a non-sexual way and should go the discrete route. If mom does this then I think moms should be able to nurse wherever and whenever they feel like it. It is natural and it is the best thing for a baby. People need to not be so uptight. I think there was a story a few years back about a woman getting thrown our of a Wendy's for nursing. Craziness. Apparently, some of the patrons couldn't choke down their grease burger while seeing a baby have some of mommy's milk in their periphery.
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ChattyKathy
Thanks Dooj! And you did one heck of a detailed job there. :)
No question of it Lindy. Women can discretely feed their babes anywhere, which I did while in a room full of Navy men many a time. But I had me and the babe covered so no one saw a thing and I never made the guys uncomfortable. This woman wanted to do it in view, no covering, no consideration for the men around her.
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FreeAtLast
Oprah? ah,,, no. Oprah comes off as though she is in the corner with the common man/woman, but I feel its because it sells. I often ask myself would she be doing this if there were no monetary return in it. If the station said Oprah. we'll let you do your show but we can't pay you. I don't think she would continue for very long.
Nursing is very natural but not so much in our culture. For that woman to make an issue of nursng when the men were uncomfortable definitely defeated the cause. Had she gone to a private location and been sensitive to those men, the arrangement might have worked.
there's definitely a time to fight for a cause and a time to use common courtesy around others.
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RainbowsGirl
In my opinion authority, no matter who holds it or wields it; it is never perfert. It is always in need of checks and balances. I think authority is nothing without being tempered with humility and compassion; and that otherwise is apt to just become an egocentric dictatorship.
The Virtuous Woman in Proverbs chapter 31: 1-31 quantifies in part what I feel is a good example of the Authority a woman in particular, as relating to that which she is expected to deal with on a day to day basis successfully; but not only that...it seems to address her perhaps inbred qualifications. I further think that the unique ways and make up of a woman is somewhat different than that of a man both traditionally and in some of the ways we process and apply knowledge.
I wonder about the inbred factors and modeling for both sexes. I do know we have gone far beyond our preset roles of yester year. I wonder too about the single parenting effects and the effects of the break down of standards in the world; How will they impact our children and how it will affect their ability to handle and deal with authority in their lives. That is a concern of particular to mothering and the authority of motherhood, Although that is somewhat a conditioned role, I know. Is Authority learned through modeling? Is it imbred? is it a combination? Myself, I think it is a combination but I am not certain. In order to be a good authority of a women figure do we need to teach it or model it for women and men differently or have our genetics predetermined this?
Qualifications affect the authority of a women; as well as they do a man. Qualifations always affect the results This is not to say that a man is more qualified than a woman...or a woman is more qualified than a man. I am wondering how we can demonstrate this in a way that men will respect and understand us more???? We may need to learn to share our authority in somewhat more clarified ways so that men can recognize and respond to it differently. Not in ways that define us as male versus female role players on the stage of life; but as respected friends, partners, and colleagues. Knowing the feeling is mutual and reciprocal.
Hey I don't deny that aI could be dreaming...although I am hoping and looking for a recipe!
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Captain Spiritural
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Captain Spiritural
Sorry your terms on Qualication and Inbred Factors caught my eye: can you expound farther on the terms you used, I enjoyed your views but somethings are a little unclear to The Captain yes Captain Spiritural. :)
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