You said "I also feel in the marriage situation that the man is the head. "....................I can't say I agree with that, according to Twi's interpretation of the man being the head, it was that the man was to have the final say and make all the decisions and even if the man was wrong, you were to stand behind him and give him your full support, as far as my thinking goes it was a no-win situation for the woman. When my ex and I dropped from the way-corp our country co-ordinator came out to try and talk us into going back, my ex wanted to go back, I didn't and the country-cordinator lit into me saying "It doesn't matter what you as the wife wants, forget all your dreams and goals, you are married and you need to do what your husband wants, doesn't matter what you want"
I don't believe for a minute that Twi's interpretation of the "head" is anywheres near accurate, in my opinion I think partner or equal, would fit the bill. I'm not a feminist by any means but if I ever get into a relationship where the man things he is the head over me or can lord over me because that's what they think the Bible means, then I'm out of here, even if that's the true meaning of the word, I will never marry again then. I feel I have alot to bring to a marriage or a relationship but not at the cost of being stifled or a chance to be my own person, it's not worth it.
FreeAtLast, just in case you think I might be lashing out at you, I'm not at all, I think it's a real good question, it's just that it really hits a nerve with me when women think they have to be under the authority of a man. It doesn't make any sense, you leave home to be out on your own, and you do great, no one lording over you, telling you what to do, you meet someone, get married and then all of a sudden they are in charge of every decision and thought you make? No thanks!!
Oh Cowgirl read the nontheistic thread I have no belief that I should be under those types of restraints. I don't agree with the Way's take on the subject at all but there some areas that we must give in to and that is when a couple is at an impasse. Someone has to make that decision then.
here are some of my posts
Ok I usually stay away from these topics but was directed here by a friend.
Greek2Me.
You wouldn't vote for a woman? In the presidential office I have to agree I would not be comfortable with a woman as president and I am a woman! But there are many situations where a woman is in charge. such as mentioned - motherhood. I have held positions of authority over men in my field and it has worked nicely no problem.
Now a woman being head over her husband definitely not!!! the scriptures are clear in the roles in the marital relationship. But look in the scriptures even Deborah was in charge of many men. I know VPW always said it was because there were no men available, but I don't see that written there. Maybe she was just the best man/woman for the job. I suppose you think women should all be at home barefoot and pregnant and making their men dinner. OOps I don't have a man, now what do I do? It's ludacris to think a woman can't hold a position of authority.
As for the presidency maybe I just don't like Hilary, or maybe I still am stuck in some of the old thoughts and don't believe that a woman should run a country. OH geeze what about when she's PMSing. There goes china, she just nuked them because they ....ed her off the wrong time of the month.
But the one thing I want to ask you is your statement about not electing someone because they are black. Did I read this right? Since when is the color of someone's skin the pre-requisite for doing a great job. If Colin Powell had run when he was considering the presidency I WOULD have absolutely voted for him. I am hoping I read your statement wrong.
This was in response to Notta's comments
Great points Notta. Marriage should be a partnership. But when you reach an impass someone has to break the tie, and that's usually the guy. But in our day and time unlike the 50's and the 60's women pursue careers and gain fulfillment in working outside of the home. Our mother's weren't encouraged to do that.
I will admit being a single mom there are many times wish I could be home with my kids more, that I could keep up with the housework and always have a home cooked meal on the table each night, but the reality is that society doesn't allow that anymore. Even if I were married without 2 incomes it is hard to support a family. I command a pretty good wage and I still struggle keeping up with the expenses of myself and my 3 munchkins. Times have changed and the function of the woman has as well. Truth is even if I got my wish and could stay home and care for my kid and home, I would eventually feel unfulfilled, out of the loop and out of touch with reality, and society. I would have to find some way to make myself useful outside of the home at least on a part time level.
Even the virtuous woman had authority. She considered a piece of land and bought it, she helped the needy, and all without asking permission of her husband. but this should probably be a topic for another thread, since it gets away from the election of a woman.
I did want to add here that if I had stayed in my marriage and "obeyed" my husband I would be dead today. I chose not to allow this left him sought medical attention more aggressively and found I had a tumor the size of a hardboiled egg in the right ventrical of my heart. So no I wouldn't let a man make my health decisions for me either but had to leave the marriage to feel like I wasn't wasting "our" money. Now I was just wasting "my" money if I never found anything.
What Judaism teaches and what I believe is that it was never God's design for women to be subservient or submissive to man, rather the two were to be partners, equals.
Sarah spoke up to Abraham and God told Abraham to listen to his wife.
Rebecca also was spiritually sharper than Jacob, when it came to which of the two children (Esau and Jacob) should inherit the promise.
There are many, many examples biblically, where it was the women who was correct.
The idea of a female president doesn't scare me at all. I won't vote for Hillary because I don't trust her, but I would vote for a women if I believed she represented my views.
...found I had a tumor the size of a hardboiled egg in the right ventrical of my heart.
And considering your right ventricle is only about the size of a hardboiled egg anyway...(well a little bigger)...I'm certainly glad you did!
I find this is an interesting thread for even more than just a biblical interpretation. There is that large school of thought that believes women are simply "wired" to be subordinate. I can't say that this has been my experience, but I can at least confirm what I suspect most people already know about me ... :)
I tend to base my idea of what authority is based on how that authority manifests. For example, I submit to the rule of law, therefore, when I am stopped by a police officer...I don't just flip him the bird and drive off. I suppose I could try, but I don't fancy the time in jail.
There were very few times in my marriage that my ex-husband tried to "lord his authority" over me. I was particularly sensitive to that anyway, having grown up with three elder brothers and being very independent. My brothers were my best practical examples of how peers operate (they were extremely fair) and my father set the personal example of deferring to my mother in many matters when her expertise was clearly greater. I suppose that means by physical example, I was taught negotiation.
When I think of things now...and how I view authority in a marital relationship...I can see where even in biblical times we are talking about what has traditionally been a paternalistic society. It is only in relatively recent history where women in the west have begun to assert a certain independence. I can tell you, though, that in many eastern cultures, a female-oriented society exists and it is perfectly natural to see a woman managing, if you will, the family finances and other major decisions.
For me, personally, it comes to this, I think...and I'm so interested to read what everyone else thinks, because I, too, believe this could be a really fun thread...I'll negotiate happily with a partner or husband when he brings order and reason to the table. When a final decision is reached, even when the two parties disagree, it has to be about compromise--because no one agrees on everything. I will not be dismissed out of hand, or told to keep my place because I have breasts, as it were. Neither do I think that he gets the last word because of his...physical attributes.
I think history is replete with examples of strong, independent women. This history of Boudica, Queen of the Iceni has always fascinated me.
And...of course...while I was writing this, my son stripped nekkid and ran out into the yard to, I suppose, express himself. So, you can see how much authority I command around here!
...and agreed with Abi, too...
I've no problem with women in office. However, I think Hillary might just set back the entire cause of humanity, not just women. She skeers me.
QT it's interesting you mention the school of thought that says men should dominate. I have friends who have adopted the Gorean philosophy to their relationships. The women are slaves (there are free women too but they are still under the men) and the men dominate.
Their belief is that the women are wired to be submissive to their men and that they are in their rightful place and happier when serving a man. This one girl I know is very strong emotionally, mentally and physically and she has chosen to 'serve' her 'master' in the Gorean way. Her master and I were friends before he was shipped his little slave girl and he was trying to "recruit" me. I told him that I just got my freedom back there is no way I would relinquish it to a man with his belief system.
Well this woman enjoys her life with her master. Her master shared with me that he had to SPANK her to keep her in line. I told him if I were her I would have kicked him where it counted and headed out the door. But the point is she has chosen to live this way and for some sick reason feels fulfilled in that arrangement.
I wonder what horrendous event could have caused a woman to want to give up her free state and enter into that of slavery? But this is a huge sub-culture that exists in the United States there are even web sites where masters can find their potential slaves. These sites are akin to the dating sites for vanilla relationships. There are other variant societies that believe this way as well. One that evolved from a celtic background and is now sweeping the US. I write a lot of blogs on line and I am presented with these people regularly and have been "educated" to their ways.
What is freightening is that the Gorean sub-culture is based on a series of fictional books, that these people took to be the gospel for their lives.
QT it's interesting you mention the school of thought that says men should dominate. I have friends who have adopted the Gorean philosophy to their relationships. ....(snipped for space)
Ooooh...Gor. Aye, FAL...I agree with you there. I've written a lot about alternate lifestyle choices in several aspects, but, Gor...it baffles me.
Skeers me as well. I have asked what they do when a master is beating their slave to a pulp. Well the slave gets a free woman to represent her but she still lives in the house with her master. They take it before a board of all men to determine the fate of the slave. If the man is found guilty he is reprimanded, but of course the slave has the choice to return or not. But most choose to return. Now where does she go. They have no resources to move on.
I know how you feel about a Knight in Shiny Armor Excathy! Sometimes when things are all messed up and getting worser and worser by the second.....take me away from here....It almost falls into the category of stop the world I want to get off!!!
A woman President - hmmmm - yes IF we had the right kind of woman who could carry herself well diplomatically and somebody who's words and actions would be respected by Heads of State in other countries. Margaret Thatcher comes to mind. Golda Meir as well. I know there must be others.
The Cinderalla Complex. I think that is the name for that desire to be rescued, when it is taken to the extreme and acted upon over and over again anyway. We learned it from Disney movies and romance novels.
Unfortunately, it has been my experience that those who want to rescue a woman usually turn out to be scum. They rescue you and then when you are on your feet and no longer need rescuing, they have to beat you up so they can rescue you all over again.
Gee whiz, wasting money when you were checking on your health. So thankful he is out of your life dear.
Abi,
Excellent post, as always! I love the things you bring about your faith, simply love it.
QT,
You continue to impress me. Thank you for joining both the thread in 'tacks and this one. You are a wonderful read.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
That Gorean thing is just flat out sick.
For me I have changed greatly in the ways of a man and woman. I use to think I was to obey but you can ask hubby today and he would quickly tell you that was another Kathy but not the one he's married to now.
I think women make great leaders. It has been observed that with men there is a tendancy to think in linear / spatial dimensions. Linear / Spatial thinking is particularly useful in accomplishing objectives where success is based on a set of objectives that is clearly quantifiable and especially so if the context of the undertaking is rigidly time bound, i.e. meeting Wall Street's expectation for the next quarter, making the playoffs, bringing a major construction project in on time and under budget and military success.
On the other hand, it has been observed that women have a tendency to be adept at thinking in global / relational dimensions. The ability to think globally with a view how different entities relate to each other is particularly useful in determining what course of action best serves the accomplishment of vital interests of the group as a whole especially when one is faced with a lot of unknown variables , i.e. managing a family budget that takes into account future as well as immediate needs, long term strategic business planning and shaping a forward looking foreign policy.
I think a lot of the male dominance attitudes that have prevailed in TWI over the years came directly from VPW.
"Dr. said this is how it's supposed to be so that's how it is."
The problem with that is that much of the type of thinking he had on the subject stemmed from his own personal life experiences. He was not unique in that respect. He grew up in rural America during The Great Depression. Lots of people from that background had/have a similar outlook on the subject. What seperated DocVic trom the average Joe, on this topic, was that he used and abused Gods' word to justify his own opinion and then proselytized others to adapt to this approach.
That's just my opinion.
I think it might be beneficial to look at the issue as it relates to specific subcatagories such as:
1.) In the marriage
2.)In the workplace
3.) In society in general
4.) In positions of political authority
I'm sure there are other subcatagories to add to the list.
I have found that some women in authority in the workplace have had to prove themselves so much to get there that it tends to harden them in ways not complimentary. I don't mean this is exclusive but in my experience it has been noted. I have thought that as women are accepted in power the less that edge will be seen because they won't have to fight so hard to get there.
I think a lot of the male dominance attitudes that have prevailed in TWI over the years came directly from VPW.
"Dr. said this is how it's supposed to be so that's how it is."
The problem with that is that much of the type of thinking he had on the subject stemmed from his own personal life experiences. He was not unique in that respect. He grew up in rural America during The Great Depression. Lots of people from that background had/have a similar outlook on the subject. What seperated DocVic trom the average Joe, on this topic, was that he used and abused Gods' word to justify his own opinion and then proselytized others to adapt to this approach.
That's just my opinion.
I think it might be beneficial to look at the issue as it relates to specific subcatagories such as:
1.) In the marriage
2.)In the workplace
3.) In society in general
4.) In positions of political authority
I'm sure there are other subcatagories to add to the list.
That's my 2 cents.(probably over priced at that)
Always good to hear from the fellas, Waysider! You and Oeno bring up interesting points and much to consider.
Marriage is so complicated, as it is such a personal issue, the intimacy between partners and the nature of that intimacy certainly must impact roles. I have found marriage to be dynamic and rich, full of nuance and plenty of room for shared authority. Some may find it interesting, so I share the following: My father retired the year I was born and shortly after (I was about 4) my mother went back to full-time work at the hospital. This would have been about 1975. It was not traditional at that time for a man to be at home with the kids. My father, however, a retired police officer, was just what we kids needed. Later, he was a cook, drove a dump truck and was even the "avon lady". I know, you're giggling, but it's true. My dad is one of the most "authoritative" people I know...and I was too young to recognize the difference between authoritative and authoritarian when I was first involved with twi.
Let me address Excie, too, in this point. Love? Oh my, yes...what a thing not to speak to in my post. At work, of course, I have several men who report to me. I don't know how that happened, but, it has. I never wanted to be in a managerial position. Because our emotional ties are not in the least affectionate--we are colleagues, the politics change a bit. However, when one of them smacked me on my butt today, as he was passing, I reminded him...as I always do...that smacking the rear end of the woman holding a scalpel is just a bad move in general. But, I have no concern as to who holds the hammer in that relationship...it's neither of us. I might be in charge of giving him work to do, but, we both report (in terms of hiring and firing) to the same person. I can hold my own in most any situation, and I don't feel threatened by him. He feels threatened by me, but that is another matter entirely.
In terms of general society, I want to address that, but must think some more.
And...political authority, well, I've spoken on that a bit in the other thread...but will think on that a bit more, as well.
On a slightly personal note...my ex-husband and I are often asked why we are not still married. Most people who see us together notice that we appear close and certainly seem very in-tune with what's happening with our children. Now, on this forum, all I probably need say is...I will never return to twi and he is looking for a way back. That will speak to most people here. But, in the larger context of this thread, I think people respond to the fact that I appear completely at ease in his company, and I appear that way, in part, because of my confidence in my authority over my own life and decisions. It has smoothed the relationship he and I will always have, since we are bound by our children.
Now...must think on society.
~QT
Oh, and Kathy...about women hardening-up in the workplace? I think there is something to be discussed there too...I'm putting it in my hopper :)
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ChasUFarley
I think there's a problem with your link there, so consider that I haven't read what is on the other thread you mentioned about this...
Here's my thoughts on it:
If God hadn't wanted women to be an authority over men at some point then She wouldn't have given them a brain.
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ChattyKathy
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...mp;#entry313797
Try this one. And thank you for starting this here but I need to get back to work now so will come back later.
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Cowgirl
FreeAtLast
You said "I also feel in the marriage situation that the man is the head. "....................I can't say I agree with that, according to Twi's interpretation of the man being the head, it was that the man was to have the final say and make all the decisions and even if the man was wrong, you were to stand behind him and give him your full support, as far as my thinking goes it was a no-win situation for the woman. When my ex and I dropped from the way-corp our country co-ordinator came out to try and talk us into going back, my ex wanted to go back, I didn't and the country-cordinator lit into me saying "It doesn't matter what you as the wife wants, forget all your dreams and goals, you are married and you need to do what your husband wants, doesn't matter what you want"
I don't believe for a minute that Twi's interpretation of the "head" is anywheres near accurate, in my opinion I think partner or equal, would fit the bill. I'm not a feminist by any means but if I ever get into a relationship where the man things he is the head over me or can lord over me because that's what they think the Bible means, then I'm out of here, even if that's the true meaning of the word, I will never marry again then. I feel I have alot to bring to a marriage or a relationship but not at the cost of being stifled or a chance to be my own person, it's not worth it.
FreeAtLast, just in case you think I might be lashing out at you, I'm not at all, I think it's a real good question, it's just that it really hits a nerve with me when women think they have to be under the authority of a man. It doesn't make any sense, you leave home to be out on your own, and you do great, no one lording over you, telling you what to do, you meet someone, get married and then all of a sudden they are in charge of every decision and thought you make? No thanks!!
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FreeAtLast
Oh Cowgirl read the nontheistic thread I have no belief that I should be under those types of restraints. I don't agree with the Way's take on the subject at all but there some areas that we must give in to and that is when a couple is at an impasse. Someone has to make that decision then.
here are some of my posts
Ok I usually stay away from these topics but was directed here by a friend.
Greek2Me.
You wouldn't vote for a woman? In the presidential office I have to agree I would not be comfortable with a woman as president and I am a woman! But there are many situations where a woman is in charge. such as mentioned - motherhood. I have held positions of authority over men in my field and it has worked nicely no problem.
Now a woman being head over her husband definitely not!!! the scriptures are clear in the roles in the marital relationship. But look in the scriptures even Deborah was in charge of many men. I know VPW always said it was because there were no men available, but I don't see that written there. Maybe she was just the best man/woman for the job. I suppose you think women should all be at home barefoot and pregnant and making their men dinner. OOps I don't have a man, now what do I do? It's ludacris to think a woman can't hold a position of authority.
As for the presidency maybe I just don't like Hilary, or maybe I still am stuck in some of the old thoughts and don't believe that a woman should run a country. OH geeze what about when she's PMSing. There goes china, she just nuked them because they ....ed her off the wrong time of the month.
But the one thing I want to ask you is your statement about not electing someone because they are black. Did I read this right? Since when is the color of someone's skin the pre-requisite for doing a great job. If Colin Powell had run when he was considering the presidency I WOULD have absolutely voted for him. I am hoping I read your statement wrong.
This was in response to Notta's comments
Great points Notta. Marriage should be a partnership. But when you reach an impass someone has to break the tie, and that's usually the guy. But in our day and time unlike the 50's and the 60's women pursue careers and gain fulfillment in working outside of the home. Our mother's weren't encouraged to do that.
I will admit being a single mom there are many times wish I could be home with my kids more, that I could keep up with the housework and always have a home cooked meal on the table each night, but the reality is that society doesn't allow that anymore. Even if I were married without 2 incomes it is hard to support a family. I command a pretty good wage and I still struggle keeping up with the expenses of myself and my 3 munchkins. Times have changed and the function of the woman has as well. Truth is even if I got my wish and could stay home and care for my kid and home, I would eventually feel unfulfilled, out of the loop and out of touch with reality, and society. I would have to find some way to make myself useful outside of the home at least on a part time level.
Even the virtuous woman had authority. She considered a piece of land and bought it, she helped the needy, and all without asking permission of her husband. but this should probably be a topic for another thread, since it gets away from the election of a woman.
And that is why I started this thread.
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ChattyKathy
Excellent posts!
This is going to be one of my favorite threads I suspect but I must be heading home now so again ran out of time.
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FreeAtLast
I did want to add here that if I had stayed in my marriage and "obeyed" my husband I would be dead today. I chose not to allow this left him sought medical attention more aggressively and found I had a tumor the size of a hardboiled egg in the right ventrical of my heart. So no I wouldn't let a man make my health decisions for me either but had to leave the marriage to feel like I wasn't wasting "our" money. Now I was just wasting "my" money if I never found anything.
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Abigail
What Judaism teaches and what I believe is that it was never God's design for women to be subservient or submissive to man, rather the two were to be partners, equals.
Sarah spoke up to Abraham and God told Abraham to listen to his wife.
Rebecca also was spiritually sharper than Jacob, when it came to which of the two children (Esau and Jacob) should inherit the promise.
There are many, many examples biblically, where it was the women who was correct.
The idea of a female president doesn't scare me at all. I won't vote for Hillary because I don't trust her, but I would vote for a women if I believed she represented my views.
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FreeAtLast
Thanks Abi great post, and great biblical points. Loving it.
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QuietThinker
And considering your right ventricle is only about the size of a hardboiled egg anyway...(well a little bigger)...I'm certainly glad you did!
I find this is an interesting thread for even more than just a biblical interpretation. There is that large school of thought that believes women are simply "wired" to be subordinate. I can't say that this has been my experience, but I can at least confirm what I suspect most people already know about me ... :)
I tend to base my idea of what authority is based on how that authority manifests. For example, I submit to the rule of law, therefore, when I am stopped by a police officer...I don't just flip him the bird and drive off. I suppose I could try, but I don't fancy the time in jail.
There were very few times in my marriage that my ex-husband tried to "lord his authority" over me. I was particularly sensitive to that anyway, having grown up with three elder brothers and being very independent. My brothers were my best practical examples of how peers operate (they were extremely fair) and my father set the personal example of deferring to my mother in many matters when her expertise was clearly greater. I suppose that means by physical example, I was taught negotiation.
When I think of things now...and how I view authority in a marital relationship...I can see where even in biblical times we are talking about what has traditionally been a paternalistic society. It is only in relatively recent history where women in the west have begun to assert a certain independence. I can tell you, though, that in many eastern cultures, a female-oriented society exists and it is perfectly natural to see a woman managing, if you will, the family finances and other major decisions.
For me, personally, it comes to this, I think...and I'm so interested to read what everyone else thinks, because I, too, believe this could be a really fun thread...I'll negotiate happily with a partner or husband when he brings order and reason to the table. When a final decision is reached, even when the two parties disagree, it has to be about compromise--because no one agrees on everything. I will not be dismissed out of hand, or told to keep my place because I have breasts, as it were. Neither do I think that he gets the last word because of his...physical attributes.
I think history is replete with examples of strong, independent women. This history of Boudica, Queen of the Iceni has always fascinated me.
And...of course...while I was writing this, my son stripped nekkid and ran out into the yard to, I suppose, express himself. So, you can see how much authority I command around here!
...and agreed with Abi, too...
I've no problem with women in office. However, I think Hillary might just set back the entire cause of humanity, not just women. She skeers me.
~QT
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FreeAtLast
QT it's interesting you mention the school of thought that says men should dominate. I have friends who have adopted the Gorean philosophy to their relationships. The women are slaves (there are free women too but they are still under the men) and the men dominate.
Their belief is that the women are wired to be submissive to their men and that they are in their rightful place and happier when serving a man. This one girl I know is very strong emotionally, mentally and physically and she has chosen to 'serve' her 'master' in the Gorean way. Her master and I were friends before he was shipped his little slave girl and he was trying to "recruit" me. I told him that I just got my freedom back there is no way I would relinquish it to a man with his belief system.
Well this woman enjoys her life with her master. Her master shared with me that he had to SPANK her to keep her in line. I told him if I were her I would have kicked him where it counted and headed out the door. But the point is she has chosen to live this way and for some sick reason feels fulfilled in that arrangement.
I wonder what horrendous event could have caused a woman to want to give up her free state and enter into that of slavery? But this is a huge sub-culture that exists in the United States there are even web sites where masters can find their potential slaves. These sites are akin to the dating sites for vanilla relationships. There are other variant societies that believe this way as well. One that evolved from a celtic background and is now sweeping the US. I write a lot of blogs on line and I am presented with these people regularly and have been "educated" to their ways.
What is freightening is that the Gorean sub-culture is based on a series of fictional books, that these people took to be the gospel for their lives.
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QuietThinker
Ooooh...Gor. Aye, FAL...I agree with you there. I've written a lot about alternate lifestyle choices in several aspects, but, Gor...it baffles me.
And skeers me too!
~QT
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FreeAtLast
Skeers me as well. I have asked what they do when a master is beating their slave to a pulp. Well the slave gets a free woman to represent her but she still lives in the house with her master. They take it before a board of all men to determine the fate of the slave. If the man is found guilty he is reprimanded, but of course the slave has the choice to return or not. But most choose to return. Now where does she go. They have no resources to move on.
I say RUN!!!! Run as fast as you can!!!! Scarey.
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excathedra
where and when should a woman learn these lessons, values, way(s) of life ? not as a little girl, in my case, that is
i'm talking about the marriage thing, not the political
it seems marriage should be about kindness, respect, and that thang called love.... for both
there are times i so want to be rescued by a knight in shining armor..... do men feel that way too ? i wonder ?
and there are times..... well..... let me think about this
:)
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krys
I know how you feel about a Knight in Shiny Armor Excathy! Sometimes when things are all messed up and getting worser and worser by the second.....take me away from here....It almost falls into the category of stop the world I want to get off!!!
A woman President - hmmmm - yes IF we had the right kind of woman who could carry herself well diplomatically and somebody who's words and actions would be respected by Heads of State in other countries. Margaret Thatcher comes to mind. Golda Meir as well. I know there must be others.
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Abigail
The Cinderalla Complex. I think that is the name for that desire to be rescued, when it is taken to the extreme and acted upon over and over again anyway. We learned it from Disney movies and romance novels.
Unfortunately, it has been my experience that those who want to rescue a woman usually turn out to be scum. They rescue you and then when you are on your feet and no longer need rescuing, they have to beat you up so they can rescue you all over again.
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excathedra
good thing i've never been rescued eh ? ;)
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ChattyKathy
FreeAtLast,
Gee whiz, wasting money when you were checking on your health. So thankful he is out of your life dear.
Abi,
Excellent post, as always! I love the things you bring about your faith, simply love it.
QT,
You continue to impress me. Thank you for joining both the thread in 'tacks and this one. You are a wonderful read.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
That Gorean thing is just flat out sick.
For me I have changed greatly in the ways of a man and woman. I use to think I was to obey but you can ask hubby today and he would quickly tell you that was another Kathy but not the one he's married to now.
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oenophile
Great topic!
I think women make great leaders. It has been observed that with men there is a tendancy to think in linear / spatial dimensions. Linear / Spatial thinking is particularly useful in accomplishing objectives where success is based on a set of objectives that is clearly quantifiable and especially so if the context of the undertaking is rigidly time bound, i.e. meeting Wall Street's expectation for the next quarter, making the playoffs, bringing a major construction project in on time and under budget and military success.
On the other hand, it has been observed that women have a tendency to be adept at thinking in global / relational dimensions. The ability to think globally with a view how different entities relate to each other is particularly useful in determining what course of action best serves the accomplishment of vital interests of the group as a whole especially when one is faced with a lot of unknown variables , i.e. managing a family budget that takes into account future as well as immediate needs, long term strategic business planning and shaping a forward looking foreign policy.
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ChattyKathy
Cool insight there.
I love this thread.
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waysider
Are guys allowed in this forum? Just askin' :)
I think a lot of the male dominance attitudes that have prevailed in TWI over the years came directly from VPW.
"Dr. said this is how it's supposed to be so that's how it is."
The problem with that is that much of the type of thinking he had on the subject stemmed from his own personal life experiences. He was not unique in that respect. He grew up in rural America during The Great Depression. Lots of people from that background had/have a similar outlook on the subject. What seperated DocVic trom the average Joe, on this topic, was that he used and abused Gods' word to justify his own opinion and then proselytized others to adapt to this approach.
That's just my opinion.
I think it might be beneficial to look at the issue as it relates to specific subcatagories such as:
1.) In the marriage
2.)In the workplace
3.) In society in general
4.) In positions of political authority
I'm sure there are other subcatagories to add to the list.
That's my 2 cents.(probably over priced at that)
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ChattyKathy
5) in the bedroom
(I'll be back in a minute to edit this out I bet)
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ChattyKathy
I have found that some women in authority in the workplace have had to prove themselves so much to get there that it tends to harden them in ways not complimentary. I don't mean this is exclusive but in my experience it has been noted. I have thought that as women are accepted in power the less that edge will be seen because they won't have to fight so hard to get there.
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QuietThinker
Always good to hear from the fellas, Waysider! You and Oeno bring up interesting points and much to consider.
Marriage is so complicated, as it is such a personal issue, the intimacy between partners and the nature of that intimacy certainly must impact roles. I have found marriage to be dynamic and rich, full of nuance and plenty of room for shared authority. Some may find it interesting, so I share the following: My father retired the year I was born and shortly after (I was about 4) my mother went back to full-time work at the hospital. This would have been about 1975. It was not traditional at that time for a man to be at home with the kids. My father, however, a retired police officer, was just what we kids needed. Later, he was a cook, drove a dump truck and was even the "avon lady". I know, you're giggling, but it's true. My dad is one of the most "authoritative" people I know...and I was too young to recognize the difference between authoritative and authoritarian when I was first involved with twi.
Let me address Excie, too, in this point. Love? Oh my, yes...what a thing not to speak to in my post. At work, of course, I have several men who report to me. I don't know how that happened, but, it has. I never wanted to be in a managerial position. Because our emotional ties are not in the least affectionate--we are colleagues, the politics change a bit. However, when one of them smacked me on my butt today, as he was passing, I reminded him...as I always do...that smacking the rear end of the woman holding a scalpel is just a bad move in general. But, I have no concern as to who holds the hammer in that relationship...it's neither of us. I might be in charge of giving him work to do, but, we both report (in terms of hiring and firing) to the same person. I can hold my own in most any situation, and I don't feel threatened by him. He feels threatened by me, but that is another matter entirely.
In terms of general society, I want to address that, but must think some more.
And...political authority, well, I've spoken on that a bit in the other thread...but will think on that a bit more, as well.
On a slightly personal note...my ex-husband and I are often asked why we are not still married. Most people who see us together notice that we appear close and certainly seem very in-tune with what's happening with our children. Now, on this forum, all I probably need say is...I will never return to twi and he is looking for a way back. That will speak to most people here. But, in the larger context of this thread, I think people respond to the fact that I appear completely at ease in his company, and I appear that way, in part, because of my confidence in my authority over my own life and decisions. It has smoothed the relationship he and I will always have, since we are bound by our children.
Now...must think on society.
~QT
Oh, and Kathy...about women hardening-up in the workplace? I think there is something to be discussed there too...I'm putting it in my hopper :)
You *always* give me much to consider.
~QT
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excathedra
i was referring to love in a marriage, more than a workplace
now scalpel in a marriage ;) ;) ;)
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