Thank you, T-bone. 'Competent to Counsel' is the only book by Jay Adams I have read. If there are more I would appreciate the titles of them, since I also enjoy his writings.
Abigail, thank you for your response. I hope I didn't spoil your morning. I agree with most of your points wholeheartedly. I know we were taught in TWI that we had the answers for everything, but it seems to me that when we are confronted with a situation like the one Mr. Hammeroni was that we would be wise to admit that there are some situations where we just don't know why they happened.
And, yes, I agree that there are times when it is possible to get really angry at God without condemning oneself. Moses did, and I wouldn't be surprised to find that there were others also.
And, yes, I agree that there are times when it is possible to get really angry at God without condemning oneself. Moses did, and I wouldn't be surprised to find that there were others also.
I can't remember who first brought this up but it's an excellent point. I've read a book once -- It might have been written by T D Jakes -- which covered this topic. Darn memory! Anyways, I believe it's part of our human psyche to get angry. Meaning that it can be healthy. Seeing that God "created" us and part of our being is to have emotions I don't see why God would not expect us to get angry -- even if our anger is directed towards Him. I suppose the only thing we should keep in mind is to "not let the sun go down on our wrath."
I can't remember how many times I've been angry at God for one thing or another. Haven't been struck by a lightening bolt yet. :)
Thank you, T-bone. 'Competent to Counsel' is the only book by Jay Adams I have read. If there are more I would appreciate the titles of them, since I also enjoy his writings...
I'm thinking others may not mind the list of Jay Adams' books – most of it is great stuff relevant to this thread of ministering grace. The books that I have of his are:
Competent to Counsel
The Christian Counselor's Manual
Essays on Counseling
More than Redemption: A Theology of Christian Counseling
What to do on Thursday: A Layman's Guide to the Practical Use of the Scriptures
Solving Marriage Problems
A Call to Discernment: Distinguishing Truth from Error in Today's Church
Shepherding God's Flock: A Preacher's Handbook on Pastoral Ministry, Counseling, and Leadership
The War Within: A Biblical Strategy for Spiritual Warfare
The Biblical View of Self-Esteem, Self-Love, Self-Image
Christian Living in the Home
Truth Apparent: Essays on Biblical Preaching
Helps for Counselors: A Mini-manual for Christian Counseling
The Christian Counselor's Wordbook: A Primer of Nouthetic Counseling
people have the ability to show others who they are only in parts.
we all use words to describe our experience in life our felings the happenings etc.
and words fail to tell the whole story because no one has the whole story, we filter and process and educate and do all types of things in our brain to think the way each person does. those who claim to minister and those who seek to be ministered each come in the equation with "stuff" and it is not always the truth in fact seldom the whole truth and nothing but.
and you end up with various thoughts feelings and actions in a matter.
so to minister is for me the ability to listen and pray and love.
those who feel empahty for another do well, but ya know if a person is really hurting from the fact the cat was put down and you inside never really liked cats the empathy is limited.
that is a simple example it goes much deeper even to the shape of the person face reminds you of a distant aunt who used to give you socks for christmas.
so we really do not do well as heros of the soul as much as many feel they can compete with what God and Jesus Christ ACCOMPLISHED it is often just a matter of hearing another story and feeling with them about it.
what is the difference between "ministering to someone" and" loving someone" ?
To me, Ephesians 4:29 is saying ... be nice. It's like this: When you put people down, they won't listen to you anymore, about God, or about anything. If you build them up (edify them), then they are more likely to consider your position.
The "grace" part of this has to do with God's grace, which is to say that God accepts us the way we are. To minister grace by edification is to act like God and accept everybody. Find their good parts ... and then say so ... to them.
It's a nice way to be.
But now you've got them eating out of your hand. Ministering grace can also be used to manipulate people. Phony edification can be just as powerful and also indicates your acceptance of another person, even though it's all an act.
Sorry, I'm thinking of the author of Ephesians. OK, now back to the topic ...
In the "Message" bible, the verse ends with this phrase: "Each word is a gift". I like that.
I see nothing in there about causing one to loss their faith. Besides even if your challenging words may cause someone to loss their faith, for all you know that could be the best thing for them. After all many people with the strongest faith are those that have lost it for a while.
In the KJV it sounds a little controlling to me, but I do like the way the NIV puts it.
Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.
What is helpful and benefitial is going to differ from case to case, but challenging ones thinking is not always a bad thing. Infact, most of the time it is a good thing.
I would like an example of someone saying something that the hearer is not "ready for." What does that mean? In what way does this hurt them? I understand it in terms of saying the wrong things to someone who may be grieving, for example, but that didn't sound like what some of you were talking about.
The context of that verse seems pretty simple. Don't steal. Instead work hard and give to those that need and when you are speaking with others don't be a jerk, a perv, or gossipy. Don't cause God a lot of greif. (NLT, New Lindy Translation). The KJV uses words that make everything seem so spiritually hoitty toitty. Ministering, corrupt, grace, edify... it is just talking about how to act and treat eachother with a little common sense and respect. Like Shifra said...play nice together.
back at ya. I'm glad you could grace this thread with your thoughts.
In the "Message" bible, the verse ends with this phrase: "Each word is a gift". I like that.
That reminds me of James 3:10 and 13 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him show out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
Obviously the word "man" is an all-inclusive noun 'cause you certainly are wise and endued with knowledge.
I see nothing in there about causing one to loss their faith. Besides even if your challenging words may cause someone to loss their faith, for all you know that could be the best thing for them. After all many people with the strongest faith are those that have lost it for a while.
I would like an example of someone saying something that the hearer is not "ready for." What does that mean? In what way does this hurt them? I understand it in terms of saying the wrong things to someone who may be grieving, for example, but that didn't sound like what some of you were talking about.
I think of it in terms of convincing a trinitarian that Jesus Christ is not God or the dead are not alive. Both of these truths were very comforting to me when I learned them, but I can see the devastation if someone is not ready to hear them. I once heard a story of a (non TWI) clergyman who was horrified with the doctrine of the dead are not alive because as he said, 'You're taking away people's comfort'. Now to me it is more comforting to know the truth, but to someone who thinks they know the truth and then to find out that their comfort is based on a lie could be extremely devastating. Now as you say that could be the best thing for them, but if you are going to do something that undermines someone's faith even temporarily, you had better be right.
Huh? I think you just said I speak with a forked tongue. I'm sure it seems that way. Sorry.
Well, if that's how it seems to you I'll have to work on expressing myself better. The phrase "Each word is a gift." simply reminded me of what James says about our words. Our words can be a blessing or a curse. I wasn't saying that your words are -- in fact I was complimenting you on what I have observed about you -- (other than the Eeyore comment -- which you explained wasn't an insult) I find you are full of grace in the way you express yourself.
Now, I'm wondering if even that (above) is going to be misunderstood. I hope not.
Recommended Posts
Jeaniam
Thank you, T-bone. 'Competent to Counsel' is the only book by Jay Adams I have read. If there are more I would appreciate the titles of them, since I also enjoy his writings.
Abigail, thank you for your response. I hope I didn't spoil your morning. I agree with most of your points wholeheartedly. I know we were taught in TWI that we had the answers for everything, but it seems to me that when we are confronted with a situation like the one Mr. Hammeroni was that we would be wise to admit that there are some situations where we just don't know why they happened.
And, yes, I agree that there are times when it is possible to get really angry at God without condemning oneself. Moses did, and I wouldn't be surprised to find that there were others also.
Edited by JeaniamLink to comment
Share on other sites
Larry N Moore
I can't remember who first brought this up but it's an excellent point. I've read a book once -- It might have been written by T D Jakes -- which covered this topic. Darn memory! Anyways, I believe it's part of our human psyche to get angry. Meaning that it can be healthy. Seeing that God "created" us and part of our being is to have emotions I don't see why God would not expect us to get angry -- even if our anger is directed towards Him. I suppose the only thing we should keep in mind is to "not let the sun go down on our wrath."
I can't remember how many times I've been angry at God for one thing or another. Haven't been struck by a lightening bolt yet. :)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
I'm thinking others may not mind the list of Jay Adams' books – most of it is great stuff relevant to this thread of ministering grace. The books that I have of his are:
Competent to Counsel
The Christian Counselor's Manual
Essays on Counseling
More than Redemption: A Theology of Christian Counseling
What to do on Thursday: A Layman's Guide to the Practical Use of the Scriptures
Solving Marriage Problems
A Call to Discernment: Distinguishing Truth from Error in Today's Church
Shepherding God's Flock: A Preacher's Handbook on Pastoral Ministry, Counseling, and Leadership
The War Within: A Biblical Strategy for Spiritual Warfare
The Biblical View of Self-Esteem, Self-Love, Self-Image
Christian Living in the Home
Truth Apparent: Essays on Biblical Preaching
Helps for Counselors: A Mini-manual for Christian Counseling
The Christian Counselor's Wordbook: A Primer of Nouthetic Counseling
Grist from Adams' Mill
A Thirst for Wholeness
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
Share on other sites
pond
I truly love people and I truly love God.
I believe I will never know either one .
people have the ability to show others who they are only in parts.
we all use words to describe our experience in life our felings the happenings etc.
and words fail to tell the whole story because no one has the whole story, we filter and process and educate and do all types of things in our brain to think the way each person does. those who claim to minister and those who seek to be ministered each come in the equation with "stuff" and it is not always the truth in fact seldom the whole truth and nothing but.
and you end up with various thoughts feelings and actions in a matter.
so to minister is for me the ability to listen and pray and love.
those who feel empahty for another do well, but ya know if a person is really hurting from the fact the cat was put down and you inside never really liked cats the empathy is limited.
that is a simple example it goes much deeper even to the shape of the person face reminds you of a distant aunt who used to give you socks for christmas.
so we really do not do well as heros of the soul as much as many feel they can compete with what God and Jesus Christ ACCOMPLISHED it is often just a matter of hearing another story and feeling with them about it.
what is the difference between "ministering to someone" and" loving someone" ?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Great post, Pond - that's some deep stuff!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Shifra
Hi Larry
To me, Ephesians 4:29 is saying ... be nice. It's like this: When you put people down, they won't listen to you anymore, about God, or about anything. If you build them up (edify them), then they are more likely to consider your position.
The "grace" part of this has to do with God's grace, which is to say that God accepts us the way we are. To minister grace by edification is to act like God and accept everybody. Find their good parts ... and then say so ... to them.
It's a nice way to be.
But now you've got them eating out of your hand. Ministering grace can also be used to manipulate people. Phony edification can be just as powerful and also indicates your acceptance of another person, even though it's all an act.
Sorry, I'm thinking of the author of Ephesians. OK, now back to the topic ...
In the "Message" bible, the verse ends with this phrase: "Each word is a gift". I like that.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
lindyhopper
I see nothing in there about causing one to loss their faith. Besides even if your challenging words may cause someone to loss their faith, for all you know that could be the best thing for them. After all many people with the strongest faith are those that have lost it for a while.
In the KJV it sounds a little controlling to me, but I do like the way the NIV puts it.
What is helpful and benefitial is going to differ from case to case, but challenging ones thinking is not always a bad thing. Infact, most of the time it is a good thing.
I would like an example of someone saying something that the hearer is not "ready for." What does that mean? In what way does this hurt them? I understand it in terms of saying the wrong things to someone who may be grieving, for example, but that didn't sound like what some of you were talking about.
The context of that verse seems pretty simple. Don't steal. Instead work hard and give to those that need and when you are speaking with others don't be a jerk, a perv, or gossipy. Don't cause God a lot of greif. (NLT, New Lindy Translation). The KJV uses words that make everything seem so spiritually hoitty toitty. Ministering, corrupt, grace, edify... it is just talking about how to act and treat eachother with a little common sense and respect. Like Shifra said...play nice together.
The NLT will be out in bookstores near you soon.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Larry N Moore
That reminds me of James 3:10 and 13 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him show out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
Obviously the word "man" is an all-inclusive noun 'cause you certainly are wise and endued with knowledge.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Shifra
Huh? I think you just said I speak with a forked tongue. I'm sure it seems that way. Sorry.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Jeaniam
I think of it in terms of convincing a trinitarian that Jesus Christ is not God or the dead are not alive. Both of these truths were very comforting to me when I learned them, but I can see the devastation if someone is not ready to hear them. I once heard a story of a (non TWI) clergyman who was horrified with the doctrine of the dead are not alive because as he said, 'You're taking away people's comfort'. Now to me it is more comforting to know the truth, but to someone who thinks they know the truth and then to find out that their comfort is based on a lie could be extremely devastating. Now as you say that could be the best thing for them, but if you are going to do something that undermines someone's faith even temporarily, you had better be right.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Larry N Moore
Well, if that's how it seems to you I'll have to work on expressing myself better. The phrase "Each word is a gift." simply reminded me of what James says about our words. Our words can be a blessing or a curse. I wasn't saying that your words are -- in fact I was complimenting you on what I have observed about you -- (other than the Eeyore comment -- which you explained wasn't an insult) I find you are full of grace in the way you express yourself.
Now, I'm wondering if even that (above) is going to be misunderstood. I hope not.
Edited by Larry N MooreLink to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.