Here's a survey you can copy and paste into your reply with your own answers. Elaborate on your answers if you like. You can also come back and write a full explanation of your position for any particular item. (Heck, you can do whatever you like!)
T = true F = false U = unsure
Adam and Eve are historical figures, who lived 5000 - 7000 years ago. T/F/U
True
Jesus of Nazareth uniquely represented the Creator as His Son. T/F/U
True
The risen Jesus Christ is my Lord. T/F/U
True
The Book of Job is allegorical. That is, it attempts to explain human suffering using fictional characters. T/F/U
False
The disciple John, one of "the twelve", wrote 5 Books: John, 1John, 2John, 3John, and Revelation. T/F/U
True
Paul wrote Hebrews. T/F/U
True (as far as I was taught)
Moses wrote Genesis. T/F/U
unsure
David wrote the 23rd Psalm. T/F/U
True
Paul's doctrine of "by faith alone" contradicts James' doctrine, as recorded in the Book of James. T/F/U
unsure (I never thought about)
Four were crucified with Jesus. T/F/U
True
I speak in tongues in my private prayer life. T/F/U
True
God loves homosexuals. T/F/U
True
Homosexuality is not a sin. T/F/U
False
God does not hate. T/F/U
True
1 Cor. 12 says that all nine "manifestations" of the spirit are the privilege of everyone who has been "born again" by confessing Jesus as their lord, and believing God raised him from the dead. (When combined with Romans 10:9 and other scriptures.) T/F/U
True
The prayer of a believer can move God to do something He would not otherwise have done. T/F/U
True (at least open a possibility)
Mormonism, Catholicism, and JW’s are perversions of Christianity. T/F/U
unsure about the word perversion
Some of Jesus’ teaching is impossible to carry out. T/F/U
False
"Sin consciousness" is not in the believer’s self-interest. T/F/U
False
The canon is closed. Another authentic letter of Paul will never surface. T/F/U
unsure
There are authentic apostles and prophets of God living and ministering today. T/F/U
True...but where are they?
Requiring narrative answers (short or long):
When Jesus told Nicodemus that he "must be born again," what did he mean?
I am not sure exactly what he meant. From my perspective and understanding, being "born again" was made possible after the day of Pentecost. Did Jesus know about the out pouring of holy spirit and all it would mean when he was talking to Nic? I can't imagine that he only had an inkling that "something" would happen and then tell Nicodemus that he "must" if he, Jesus, didn't have a full grasp of he insisted on and all that would entail.
What are your thoughts on the Fourth commandment (not to work on the sabbath)?
I heard a series calling the Ten Commandments the "Tender" Commandments. The love and practicality of their directions for life being based on our best interests. God doesn't want His willful, wild and wacky kids to get hurt.
AnotherDan....you bless me. I spent lots of time with you in Little Rock and a bit in F14. You are quite the intellectual with heart and compassion. My hat is off to you.
Deb, thanks for exWay-ing in on the survey, and for your comments addressed to me. You bless me, too. You always have. I'm pretty sure I know who you are, based on your comments. Favorite memory of mine.... you laid hands on me and prayed for me after I'd taken a very bad dive off a cliff into a quarry... I had quite a concussion, and as you prayed, my mind came into great clarity. Many other fond memories, as well.
Favorite answers to the survey questions included your narrative anwser on the Sabbath question and this one:
There are authentic apostles and prophets of God living and ministering today. T/F/U
True...but where are they?
N. T. Wright, maybe.
Intellectual pursuit of study, reading, and considering various believers' works (and unbelievers!) through the centuries has given me a more balanced perspective. I do have a strong orientation in that direction, sometimes to my injury, but it is a part of loving God with all one's heart, soul, MIND, and strength. God is marvelous, even terrifying, to me. I'm willing to become as a little child, to start over, if He'll give me the grace to see.
My time here at GSC may be coming to a close; I've done some "processing," and it's been fairly hard on me. Overall, I don't really like it here, but that's to be expected in any "ex" type of site. I don't really consider myself exWay in the most basic sense, considering that Jesus Christ said He was the Way, the Truth, and the Life. I'm trying to be exFoolishness, exSuckered (but not exSuccoured!) and exPrideful.
There are a lot of thoughtful, wonderful people posting here, and I have gained at least one real friend here. But I'm weary of much of the hardness and debate. My email is listed in my profile, so I figure if some future browsers come across my posts, they can find me. Drop me a line if you wish. I have been wondering if the golfing thing worked out for M_____. Love you!
true, they are people. I appreciate that sentiment. And some of them are profoundly hurt, and I can appreciate that too. I was just trying to describe how the "ex" element of any paradigm is negative space, and I mean that in a new way than the way I used to think. "Reaching forth" to the things which are before me is something I'm trying to do. I recognize that lots of other folks are doing the same in their own ways. I didn't mean to sound critical, though again, the term "critical" can be used in a positive sense.
This is a valuable forum. If I had the time and energy, I might try to start a better one, but upon reflection I don't think I really could. As you suggested, this place is populated by "people" (duh! but again, I'm responding to you, and surely you were stating the obvious, as well)
Just as many have noted here, local congregations all have various compromises, various doctrinal and practical elements that make "sharing fully" difficult. And sometimes it is not clear to me where the line must be drawn between forbearance and commitment to the truth as I see it. Something that may be seen in these congregations as well as at the GSC is a jostling of this line. The NT is replete with examples of the kind of forbearance that both Jesus and Paul taught, and which is all-too-rarely practiced among rabid Christian fundamentalists.... just like the Pharisees of the 1st century. On the other hand, there is also a "toleration" that flies in the face of authentic living -- what might be called "kingdom living." There are those who reject such a paradigm, and I have no problem with that, but the fruit of that root seems pretty obvious at times, at least to me.
The irony of an intolerance of intolerance makes some to resort citing the absurd example. Shall we tolerate child molesters? The usual reply runs that as long as there is no victim, everything is OK. Shall we protect drug abusers from themselves? Some would say "no". I give a d-amn, but sometimes I don't know how to do "the thing which is good." The seed we sow is of utmost importance, but sometimes equally important is choice of the ground into which we sow it.
Thanks, cman. And I think you're right about the honesty thing. One of the most valuable services that can be rendered sometimes is to encourage people to express what they are feeling, without condemning/judging them. How else can we be said to truly love one another?
But I have found that for the most part these people here are honest.
And can be trusted with your honesty and your honest replies or comments.
Don't let a few that 'seem' too forward discourage you.
But if it's time to move on I'm all for it for you.
You are welcome here anytime as you know.
I don't know Cman. There is still a boundary there. This is still the internet and people can appear honest and yet not be so. I am not referring to you or Dan here, just making a general statement. I think sometimes, because we all have that common background of TWI, that we slip into that mindset TWI once taught us, that we can leave our wallets with anyone in the auditorium (figuratively speaking) and all our money will still be there when we get it back.
Dan, it has been a true pleasure meeting up with you in these forums and when you leave, I hope you will at least pop in from time to time to say hi. I will probably continue to hang out down here a bit more - I enjoy the exchange of information. But I keep learning over and over again that "sharing fully" as you put it, is a risky business when it comes to the great wide open internet and when you lose on such a gamle, you could potentially lose very big.
My time here at GSC may be coming to a close; I've done some "processing," and it's been fairly hard on me. Overall, I don't really like it here, but that's to be expected in any "ex" type of site. I don't really consider myself exWay in the most basic sense, considering that Jesus Christ said He was the Way, the Truth, and the Life. I'm trying to be exFoolishness, exSuckered (but not exSuccoured!) and exPrideful.
AD, I understand if you need to leave GS, but I have to say it will be a real loss to GS. You've brought a unique perspective that has blessed me quite a bit. You're kind, and thoughtful and thinking. I was looking forward to discussions with you in doctrinal.
I get bothered sometimes by different perspectives here, but more and more I just tend to ignore those I don't agree with, unless I feel I need to respond or that I have something profitable to contribute.
...My time here at GSC may be coming to a close; I've done some "processing," and it's been fairly hard on me. Overall, I don't really like it here, but that's to be expected in any "ex" type of site. I don't really consider myself exWay in the most basic sense, considering that Jesus Christ said He was the Way, the Truth, and the Life. I'm trying to be exFoolishness, exSuckered (but not exSuccoured!) and exPrideful.....
Another Dan, I’d hate to see you go. You bring another valuable perspective here! Please consider the idea that some of your processing things out loud here at Grease Spot can serve as a BIG help to someone else.
Wrds, can one type in tongues? Special survey question just for you! :P
Many kind words... I appreciate them. Hope the thread keeps going (that others continue to "exWay-in" on the questions) and I will check in from time to time. I've been somewhat house-bound for the past week or so, and that afforded me a lot more time to "devote" to internet stuff. I'm getting better now, and I'll have to do some serious hours to catch up at work, so that's a factor too in my deciding to curtail involvement. My email is danhspot-signup"AT"yahoo"DOT"com, which I check fairly often. (there is a hyphen in there)
I'd be interested in hearing any elucidations on any of the topics covered in the survey, as well.
I had hoped to post my thoughts more thoroughly on some of the topics, but I never did get that done. Jesus said more about the Sabbath than about any of the other of the 10 commandments, with the exception, perhaps, of fornication/adultery. I think a sensible experimental practice of sabbathkeeping might be in order. Liz and I did that for some time, and I wish we were still doing it now! Friday sunset to Saturday sunset. Sabbath was made for man, and Jesus Christ himself IS our rest, our shabbat. Some of these things were brought up by other posters.
Lots more to explore. Many things God has yet to teach us.
It will be obvious that this is directed to those who call themselves Christians, but all are welcome to play, if they care to. I regard these questions to be harder, and also that they are less likely to prompt a response that includes the words "does it matter?" (Except, maybe, the dinosaur question. Though I'm sure some would feel that way about others.)
Jesus Christ is personally aware of my pain. He also knows where I in my weakness have forsaken him, and where I have failed to do the right thing. He is aware of sacrifices I have made. T/F/U
I believe that it is a Christian's duty, my duty, to love the enemies of God, and to "bless" them. T/F/U
There is coming a day when the universe will be made right, and I will exist as a part of it. T/F/U
Sickness and other bad things that have befallen me are not necessarily because of wrongs I have done. T/F/U
Dinosaurs lived in a period which could be called "the first heaven and earth." T/F/U
As a parent, it is never right to discipline a child by hitting him or her. T/F/U
God can and does heal cancer. T/F/U
None of my loved ones who have died have perished forever. T/F/U
Ultimately, I will be held responsible for people whom I have hurt. T/F/U
Requiring a narrative answer:
Cite an example of something that can be done "in the name of Jesus Christ," and explain what it means to do that action in his name.
It will be obvious that this is directed to those who call themselves Christians, but all are welcome to play, if they care to. I regard these questions to be harder, and also that they are less likely to prompt a response that includes the words "does it matter?" (Except, maybe, the dinosaur question. Though I'm sure some would feel that way about others.)
Jesus Christ is personally aware of my pain. He also knows where I in my weakness have forsaken him, and where I have failed to do the right thing. He is aware of sacrifices I have made. T/F/U
At this time in my life I would have to say unknown. I believe the above is true of God, but I have not made up my mind regarding Jesus Christ. Some part of me would like to be able to answer true, if for no other reason than because in this society it is far easier to be Christian than anything else, but I am not yet fully persuaded in that direction. I believe he lived, I believed is was a great Rabbi, but beyond that I lack conviction. Part of that has to do with the way traditional Christianity presents him. The way Cman has recently presented him has definitely intrigued me though.
I believe that it is a Christian's duty, my duty, to love the enemies of God, and to "bless" them. T/F/U
Ha - you have to know I'm going to ask for definitions here! Define "enemy of God" and define "bless", please. As it stands by my own understanding of those terms I would say false. I am not convinced God has enemies. Rather, I think we are all in one stage or another of getting to know Him, even those who say they do not believe. If there are enemies, I would say they are in the form of a spirit being(s), in which case I am uncertain how I could love or bless a spirit being whose existance I am uncertain of.
All of that said, as a human I believe it is my duty to love all of humanity, as well as the animals and planet, and do for them the good I can to the best of my ability.
There is coming a day when the universe will be made right, and I will exist as a part of it. T/F/U
I tend to think so, yes.
Sickness and other bad things that have befallen me are not necessarily because of wrongs I have done. T/F/U
True. Some 'bad things' were a direct result of my own decisions and actions. Some were an indirect result of my own decisions and actions. Some were a direct or indirect result of someone else's decisions or actions and some I just cannot offer an explanation for.
Dinosaurs lived in a period which could be called "the first heaven and earth." T/F/U
Unknown. There are many theories regarding the dinosaurs but I have not found one that I could say is I believe is absoultely the correct one.
As a parent, it is never right to discipline a child by hitting him or her. T/F/U
I will say false here, in part because you used the word never. I am not a fan of hitting children. However, I do think when one is dealing with toddlers sometimes a swat on the butt is necessary. I have debated this issue in the past and will sum it up by saying I would rather give my toddler a SINGLE, swat on the behind than see him run out in front of a car and get injured or killed. I think once a child reaches a certain stage of development, however, this would no longer be necessary. I can't offer you a specific age because all children are different, but I would say somewhere between 4 and 6 at the latest.
Besides, as Sushi says - mental torture is so much more fun ;) (It's a JOKE!!!)
God can and does heal cancer. T/F/U
True. I won't say He always does, but I would say He can. And because I tend to feel a disclaimer is necessary when this topic comes up, I very much believe in utilizing the medical profession and seeking medical treatment whenever necessary.
None of my loved ones who have died have perished forever. T/F/U
Unknow. I would like to say with a certainty this is true and on one level I believe it to be true. However, I can't say I know with 100% certainty that it is true. Is that wishy washy enough for you?
Ultimately, I will be held responsible for people whom I have hurt. T/F/U
Unknown. Again, on one level I will say true and would add that I think I have and in some cases continue to pay the price for hurting people. However, I think you may be speaking here more in terms of the afterlife or next life, in which case I cannot say for a certainty what will be. I do believe God knows our hearts and form and would not hold us accountable in an unjust, unloving or punative way.
Requiring a narrative answer:
Cite an example of something that can be done "in the name of Jesus Christ," and explain what it means to do that action in his name.
I can't answer this one. I know what we were taught in TWI, but honestly I never witnessed anyone doing anything outside of prayer "in the name of Jesus Christ." My personal obersvations and experiences with prayer is that it is no more or less successful than prayer without adding that phrase.
I think a sensible experimental practice of sabbathkeeping might be in order. Liz and I did that for some time, and I wish we were still doing it now! Friday sunset to Saturday sunset.
Our family has done that as well, including the Shabbat dinner with the candlelighting and the Hebrew blessings. I especially love the part in the Shabbat ritual where the father of the house lays hands on the children and blesses them:
for sons:
"May God make you like Mannassah and Ephraim",
for daughters:
"May God make you like Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel and Leah" and
for both:
"May God bless you and watch over you.
May God shine His face toward you and show you favor.
Abi, can you tell us in your own words what has intrigued you about Cman's presentation of Jesus?
Wrds, if I still lived in SouthernCal, I'd have to look you up. I would definitely try to get myself invited over for Passover!
We did Shabbat dinner friday evenings, too, and welcomed our rest. Our prayers were always in the line of, "Father, we don't know what we're doing with this sabbath thing. We want to learn to live in you and in your son, Jesus Christ, who is our rest. Teach us, lord, how to rest in you."
We made a point of preparing to rest... cooking ahead of time, that type of thing, but mindful of many of the things Jesus taught about the sabbath, we did not strain at gnats. And if we spotted a sheep in the ditch, we didn't hesitate to do a little work.
That link about blessing the children was wonderful, Wds, thanks for taking the trouble to post it.
The Sabbath is a wonderful time of resting and renewing so we can start the new week fresh and ready. We don't do it perfectly around my house either, nor do we do it particularly formally. I have two very active and energetic young boys and when dinner is on the table they are READY TO EAT!!! So, we eat dinner before sunset and light the candles afterwards. That way everyone is relaxed and peaceful. See, the sabbath is for us, it is OUR rest. I don't think we have to strain at gnats either.
You know, its funny, in all my studies I somehow missed the blessing for the children. (I suck at the details within the rituals - lol- mostly I focus on the intent behind them). That is truly a beautiful thing and a great reminder for the sabbath. After a long week of working, taking care of the home, rushing kids to and from various events, it is easy to get cranky and become lax in reminding them of how much we love them, how precious they are to us, and how much joy they bring to our lives.
Abi, can you tell us in your own words what has intrigued you about Cman's presentation of Jesus?
I sort of did this in the Calvin thread, but I will toss it in here too. Perhaps others would like to offer insight as well - which I always appreciate. :)
I've been giving a lot of thought to some of Cman's posts regarding being born again and it being a process. I think SirG may have said something along the same lines in the past, but I never really "got it" before.
In TWI we were taught a formula. We do Romans 10:9 and 10 and poof we were magically born again. All the bad was washed away and we started out new and fresh. If we made in mistakes from that point on we simply asked for forgiveness and all was new and fresh again. We could do that over and over and over again. It didn't even really require much thought, introspection, or even self honesty. Nice, easy, and quick.
But is birth quick, easy and simple? It is a process, it requires effort mentally, physically and emotionally. It doesn't happen in an instant, it takes time. For humans it takes 9 months. For some animals the gestational period is shorter and for some longer.
So maybe the same is true of becoming born again. Maybe it is a process that occurs over time. It may start with a hunger to know God, it may start with an acceptance of Jesus' teachings, I don't really know what the exact point of conception is.
The concept of rebirth being a process instead of a simple easy formula would also fit with Judaism and Kabbalah. In that sense, all of life could be taken as the birthing process. Or perhaps some portion of life is the birthing process, some point is toddlerhood, then adolecense. I don't know, I'm still mulling it over.
I have a problem with "the formula," too. Hark back to our discussion on this thread regarding being "born again," and as you know, we've been discussing it on the Calvinist thread. In GSC jargon, an "innie" still belongs to TWI, but there are other innies, particularly among various denominations who are sure they are the one, true church. (Saint Peter showing someone around heaven.... goes past a doorway and says to his guest, "Shhhhhh! That room is for the [Catholics, Southern Baptists, etc.] They like to think they're the only ones here.") The Pharisee to whom Jesus was speaking was a pious man, but he wasn't apparently willing to be "born again."
We religious/devout people ought to see ourselves in the Pharisees of Jesus' day... at least to accept that it is possible that those things are addressed to us as a warning, if not a condemnation. (And yes, I used the words "addressed to us" quite literally. The Gospels were written after the Pauline corpus.) Lord, I repent of my dispensationalist sins!
I have a problem with "the formula," too. Hark back to our discussion on this thread regarding being "born again," and as you know, we've been discussing it on the Calvinist thread. In GSC jargon, an "innie" still belongs to TWI, but there are other innies, particularly among various denominations who are sure they are the one, true church. (Saint Peter showing someone around heaven.... goes past a doorway and says to his guest, "Shhhhhh! That room is for the [Catholics, Southern Baptists, etc.] They like to think they're the only ones here.") The Pharisee to whom Jesus was speaking was a pious man, but he wasn't apparently willing to be "born again."
We religious/devout people ought to see ourselves in the Pharisees of Jesus' day... at least to accept that it is possible that those things are addressed to us as a warning, if not a condemnation. (And yes, I used the words "addressed to us" quite literally. The Gospels were written after the Pauline corpus.) Lord, I repent of my dispensationalist sins!
Ha, Dan! See, I knew you were going to be a great addition to this place!! And your St. Peter jokes are killing me!!!! :)
And yes, I suppose there are "innies" in many many walks of life. For myself, I don't like to speculate on someone else's "standing" with God, so to speak. I am not God to know such a thing, nor does it make any difference to me in the grander scheme of things. Love your enemy? I see that as love everyone. Treat everyone with as much respect and love as you can muster.
Not saying I come anywhere close to doing that, but it is at least a worthy endeavor. Roy is a fantastic example in that category. People can be very cruel to him and he never returns fire. Sometimes I think he no longer even has the urge to return fire, though obviously I don't really know that.
Me, I not only have the urge, but I still take the action at least some of the time.
Roy is a fantastic example in that category. People can be very cruel to him and he never returns fire.
That's what I admire about you, Abi. You're like the John Madden of GSC. You "get" people. You know what the lineman's going through.
Jesus is walking through heaven one day, a little bored, when he passes the Pearly Gates and sees St. Peter talking with an elderly gentleman and decides to go over and hear the man's tale.
"Where are you from, old man?" Jesus asks.
"Well, I lived my life on the shores of the Mediterranean," the old man replies.
"Hmmm. I spent some time there myself," says Jesus. "What did you do for a living?"
"Well, I was a poor carpenter," says the old man.
"Wow. So was I," says Jesus.
"And I had a son," says the old man. "Well, he wasn't my son really, but a miraculous spirit came into him and he became a very famous person."
Jesus can't hold back any longer. "Father!" he cries.
The old man falls into Jesus' outstretched arms. "Pinocchio!"
Having a little fun here, but still waiting on others to weigh in on some of these serious matters... They're hard, some of them. My answers would all be True except for the last two, where I would have to admit to Unsure. I wish some of your smart people would straighten me out! Where's Linda?
The name of Jesus Christ. We Christians are told to do all things in his name. I'll have to get back to you on that one.
The doctor told him he was going to die, and he thought about all the things he had accomplished in life. He was a wealthy man who had worked very hard to obtain what he had accumulated, but he was also a godly man who worked as hard for Adonai as for himself. He also gave much to the poor and to his congregation, and he was known in his community to be one to whom any could go for advice, a loan, even a kind word.
But he was dying. He knew that it was not quite kosher, but he asked the angel of death if he could please bring some of the wealth he had accumulated with him, for he had worked hard for it. The angel told him that it had never been done before, but he would see what he could do, since he was the most righteous man he had known in centuries.
Finally, the angel came back and told him, "Adonai has granted you permission, but you may bring only what you can pack in one suitcase."
So the man found the largest of his suitcases. He packed it and let the angel know that he was ready. And he died.
At the pearly gates, St. Peter saw him coming. "Ho there! You cannot bring anything up here from the earth!" he said. The man explained that he had special permission.
St. Peter replied, "This is highly irregular! I will have to ask the Boss."
Peter came back momentarily, and he said, "The Boss says that you may bring it in, but I have to inspect it first."
The man opened the suitcase, and St. Peter looked inside. It was jam-packed with bright, shining gold bouillon! St. Peter stood back with a puzzled look on his face. "I guess you can take it in," he said, "but why do you want to bring in street pavement?"
Come on, Socks, T-Bone, InvisibleDan, all you others. Are you going to take the quiz? "Is that your final answer?"
That's what I admire about you, Abi. You're like the John Madden of GSC. You "get" people. You know what the lineman's going through.
Thanks, Dan, but honestly it is simply a matter of having been around this place for nearly 7 years and therefore having plenty of time to get to know the "regulars," a number of which I have also gotten to know via PM and emails, and a growing handful of which I have even had the pleasure of meeting face to face.
For me this place is a godsend. With a husband, two young boys, and a job, I simply don't have a lot of left over time for going out for coffee a few times a week with friends, etc. Add to that my skittishness of organized religion and my loathing of gossip and it becomes very difficult to find people who are willing to have discussions of this nature on a regular basis.
Here I have nearly the best of it all. The availability to come and visit during times that fit my lifestyle. The freedom to learn at my own pace without compulsion, and a group of people who may not all believe as I do (which is great, IMO) but are still interested in learning. The only downside is that I haven't gotten to meet more people face to face and I don't get to see those I have met as often as I would like to.
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debbieb
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anotherDan
Deb, thanks for exWay-ing in on the survey, and for your comments addressed to me. You bless me, too. You always have. I'm pretty sure I know who you are, based on your comments. Favorite memory of mine.... you laid hands on me and prayed for me after I'd taken a very bad dive off a cliff into a quarry... I had quite a concussion, and as you prayed, my mind came into great clarity. Many other fond memories, as well.
Favorite answers to the survey questions included your narrative anwser on the Sabbath question and this one:
There are authentic apostles and prophets of God living and ministering today. T/F/U
True...but where are they?
N. T. Wright, maybe.
Intellectual pursuit of study, reading, and considering various believers' works (and unbelievers!) through the centuries has given me a more balanced perspective. I do have a strong orientation in that direction, sometimes to my injury, but it is a part of loving God with all one's heart, soul, MIND, and strength. God is marvelous, even terrifying, to me. I'm willing to become as a little child, to start over, if He'll give me the grace to see.
My time here at GSC may be coming to a close; I've done some "processing," and it's been fairly hard on me. Overall, I don't really like it here, but that's to be expected in any "ex" type of site. I don't really consider myself exWay in the most basic sense, considering that Jesus Christ said He was the Way, the Truth, and the Life. I'm trying to be exFoolishness, exSuckered (but not exSuccoured!) and exPrideful.
There are a lot of thoughtful, wonderful people posting here, and I have gained at least one real friend here. But I'm weary of much of the hardness and debate. My email is listed in my profile, so I figure if some future browsers come across my posts, they can find me. Drop me a line if you wish. I have been wondering if the golfing thing worked out for M_____. Love you!
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cman
perhaps you could have the perspective that these are people and not ex anything
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anotherDan
cman,
true, they are people. I appreciate that sentiment. And some of them are profoundly hurt, and I can appreciate that too. I was just trying to describe how the "ex" element of any paradigm is negative space, and I mean that in a new way than the way I used to think. "Reaching forth" to the things which are before me is something I'm trying to do. I recognize that lots of other folks are doing the same in their own ways. I didn't mean to sound critical, though again, the term "critical" can be used in a positive sense.
This is a valuable forum. If I had the time and energy, I might try to start a better one, but upon reflection I don't think I really could. As you suggested, this place is populated by "people" (duh! but again, I'm responding to you, and surely you were stating the obvious, as well)
Just as many have noted here, local congregations all have various compromises, various doctrinal and practical elements that make "sharing fully" difficult. And sometimes it is not clear to me where the line must be drawn between forbearance and commitment to the truth as I see it. Something that may be seen in these congregations as well as at the GSC is a jostling of this line. The NT is replete with examples of the kind of forbearance that both Jesus and Paul taught, and which is all-too-rarely practiced among rabid Christian fundamentalists.... just like the Pharisees of the 1st century. On the other hand, there is also a "toleration" that flies in the face of authentic living -- what might be called "kingdom living." There are those who reject such a paradigm, and I have no problem with that, but the fruit of that root seems pretty obvious at times, at least to me.
The irony of an intolerance of intolerance makes some to resort citing the absurd example. Shall we tolerate child molesters? The usual reply runs that as long as there is no victim, everything is OK. Shall we protect drug abusers from themselves? Some would say "no". I give a d-amn, but sometimes I don't know how to do "the thing which is good." The seed we sow is of utmost importance, but sometimes equally important is choice of the ground into which we sow it.
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cman
In general, people are afraid to be honest in any type of group get together.
But I have found that for the most part these people here are honest.
And can be trusted with your honesty and your honest replies or comments.
Don't let a few that 'seem' too forward discourage you.
But if it's time to move on I'm all for it for you.
You are welcome here anytime as you know.
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anotherDan
Thanks, cman. And I think you're right about the honesty thing. One of the most valuable services that can be rendered sometimes is to encourage people to express what they are feeling, without condemning/judging them. How else can we be said to truly love one another?
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anotherDan
Letatelia garund a maysa telia geenseen.
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Danny
Dan
Go or stay that's up to u.
Let me say some of the thing you have typed helped me.
You might be the one to put something here that gives great healing
to a needing soul.
One thing that always chapped me was the 3 piece suit.
Not everyone should wear one.
Especially on Sunday.
I will only affect a certain person.
So will you.
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Abigail
I don't know Cman. There is still a boundary there. This is still the internet and people can appear honest and yet not be so. I am not referring to you or Dan here, just making a general statement. I think sometimes, because we all have that common background of TWI, that we slip into that mindset TWI once taught us, that we can leave our wallets with anyone in the auditorium (figuratively speaking) and all our money will still be there when we get it back.
Dan, it has been a true pleasure meeting up with you in these forums and when you leave, I hope you will at least pop in from time to time to say hi. I will probably continue to hang out down here a bit more - I enjoy the exchange of information. But I keep learning over and over again that "sharing fully" as you put it, is a risky business when it comes to the great wide open internet and when you lose on such a gamle, you could potentially lose very big.
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cman
Just from the standpoint of being honest with what we say Abi.
Not that we are to tell all we know, but what we do is from the heart.
Again, for the most part.
And thanks for bringing that up.
We must always be wise in our choice of what to say and not say.
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wrdsandwrks
AD, I understand if you need to leave GS, but I have to say it will be a real loss to GS. You've brought a unique perspective that has blessed me quite a bit. You're kind, and thoughtful and thinking. I was looking forward to discussions with you in doctrinal.
I get bothered sometimes by different perspectives here, but more and more I just tend to ignore those I don't agree with, unless I feel I need to respond or that I have something profitable to contribute.
BTW, Happy Anniversary!
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T-Bone
Another Dan, I’d hate to see you go. You bring another valuable perspective here! Please consider the idea that some of your processing things out loud here at Grease Spot can serve as a BIG help to someone else.
Love and peace to you brother, T-Bone
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wrdsandwrks
Is this tongues? Interpretation?
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anotherDan
Wrds, can one type in tongues? Special survey question just for you! :P
Many kind words... I appreciate them. Hope the thread keeps going (that others continue to "exWay-in" on the questions) and I will check in from time to time. I've been somewhat house-bound for the past week or so, and that afforded me a lot more time to "devote" to internet stuff. I'm getting better now, and I'll have to do some serious hours to catch up at work, so that's a factor too in my deciding to curtail involvement. My email is danhspot-signup"AT"yahoo"DOT"com, which I check fairly often. (there is a hyphen in there)
I'd be interested in hearing any elucidations on any of the topics covered in the survey, as well.
I had hoped to post my thoughts more thoroughly on some of the topics, but I never did get that done. Jesus said more about the Sabbath than about any of the other of the 10 commandments, with the exception, perhaps, of fornication/adultery. I think a sensible experimental practice of sabbathkeeping might be in order. Liz and I did that for some time, and I wish we were still doing it now! Friday sunset to Saturday sunset. Sabbath was made for man, and Jesus Christ himself IS our rest, our shabbat. Some of these things were brought up by other posters.
Lots more to explore. Many things God has yet to teach us.
Kisses and hugs and chocolate all around!
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anotherDan
Spot Survey: Reveal yourself, doctrinally, part 2
It will be obvious that this is directed to those who call themselves Christians, but all are welcome to play, if they care to. I regard these questions to be harder, and also that they are less likely to prompt a response that includes the words "does it matter?" (Except, maybe, the dinosaur question. Though I'm sure some would feel that way about others.)
Jesus Christ is personally aware of my pain. He also knows where I in my weakness have forsaken him, and where I have failed to do the right thing. He is aware of sacrifices I have made. T/F/U
I believe that it is a Christian's duty, my duty, to love the enemies of God, and to "bless" them. T/F/U
There is coming a day when the universe will be made right, and I will exist as a part of it. T/F/U
Sickness and other bad things that have befallen me are not necessarily because of wrongs I have done. T/F/U
Dinosaurs lived in a period which could be called "the first heaven and earth." T/F/U
As a parent, it is never right to discipline a child by hitting him or her. T/F/U
God can and does heal cancer. T/F/U
None of my loved ones who have died have perished forever. T/F/U
Ultimately, I will be held responsible for people whom I have hurt. T/F/U
Requiring a narrative answer:
Cite an example of something that can be done "in the name of Jesus Christ," and explain what it means to do that action in his name.
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Abigail
I'll play, Dan. :)
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wrdsandwrks
Loshanta malacha, loshanta malacha, loshanta malacha, loshanta malachasiti. How's that? (LOL, JK)
Our family has done that as well, including the Shabbat dinner with the candlelighting and the Hebrew blessings. I especially love the part in the Shabbat ritual where the father of the house lays hands on the children and blesses them:
for sons:
"May God make you like Mannassah and Ephraim",
for daughters:
"May God make you like Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel and Leah" and
for both:
"May God bless you and watch over you.
May God shine His face toward you and show you favor.
May God be favorably disposed toward you,
and may He grant you peace."
Here's a link: http://www.aish.com/shabbathowto/fridaynig...he_Children.asp
I sometimes wonder if this isn't one of the reasons many Jewish people are prosperous and make such great contributions to our society.
We haven't done a Shabbat dinner in a while...
No excuses, but my daughter does competitive gymnastics and she's at the gym on Fridays until 8:30, kind of makes it difficult.
(We do a Passover Seder every year.)
Amen to that and back at you!
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anotherDan
Abi, can you tell us in your own words what has intrigued you about Cman's presentation of Jesus?
Wrds, if I still lived in SouthernCal, I'd have to look you up. I would definitely try to get myself invited over for Passover!
We did Shabbat dinner friday evenings, too, and welcomed our rest. Our prayers were always in the line of, "Father, we don't know what we're doing with this sabbath thing. We want to learn to live in you and in your son, Jesus Christ, who is our rest. Teach us, lord, how to rest in you."
We made a point of preparing to rest... cooking ahead of time, that type of thing, but mindful of many of the things Jesus taught about the sabbath, we did not strain at gnats. And if we spotted a sheep in the ditch, we didn't hesitate to do a little work.
That link about blessing the children was wonderful, Wds, thanks for taking the trouble to post it.
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Abigail
The Sabbath is a wonderful time of resting and renewing so we can start the new week fresh and ready. We don't do it perfectly around my house either, nor do we do it particularly formally. I have two very active and energetic young boys and when dinner is on the table they are READY TO EAT!!! So, we eat dinner before sunset and light the candles afterwards. That way everyone is relaxed and peaceful. See, the sabbath is for us, it is OUR rest. I don't think we have to strain at gnats either.
You know, its funny, in all my studies I somehow missed the blessing for the children. (I suck at the details within the rituals - lol- mostly I focus on the intent behind them). That is truly a beautiful thing and a great reminder for the sabbath. After a long week of working, taking care of the home, rushing kids to and from various events, it is easy to get cranky and become lax in reminding them of how much we love them, how precious they are to us, and how much joy they bring to our lives.
I sort of did this in the Calvin thread, but I will toss it in here too. Perhaps others would like to offer insight as well - which I always appreciate. :)
I've been giving a lot of thought to some of Cman's posts regarding being born again and it being a process. I think SirG may have said something along the same lines in the past, but I never really "got it" before.
In TWI we were taught a formula. We do Romans 10:9 and 10 and poof we were magically born again. All the bad was washed away and we started out new and fresh. If we made in mistakes from that point on we simply asked for forgiveness and all was new and fresh again. We could do that over and over and over again. It didn't even really require much thought, introspection, or even self honesty. Nice, easy, and quick.
But is birth quick, easy and simple? It is a process, it requires effort mentally, physically and emotionally. It doesn't happen in an instant, it takes time. For humans it takes 9 months. For some animals the gestational period is shorter and for some longer.
So maybe the same is true of becoming born again. Maybe it is a process that occurs over time. It may start with a hunger to know God, it may start with an acceptance of Jesus' teachings, I don't really know what the exact point of conception is.
The concept of rebirth being a process instead of a simple easy formula would also fit with Judaism and Kabbalah. In that sense, all of life could be taken as the birthing process. Or perhaps some portion of life is the birthing process, some point is toddlerhood, then adolecense. I don't know, I'm still mulling it over.
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anotherDan
I have a problem with "the formula," too. Hark back to our discussion on this thread regarding being "born again," and as you know, we've been discussing it on the Calvinist thread. In GSC jargon, an "innie" still belongs to TWI, but there are other innies, particularly among various denominations who are sure they are the one, true church. (Saint Peter showing someone around heaven.... goes past a doorway and says to his guest, "Shhhhhh! That room is for the [Catholics, Southern Baptists, etc.] They like to think they're the only ones here.") The Pharisee to whom Jesus was speaking was a pious man, but he wasn't apparently willing to be "born again."
We religious/devout people ought to see ourselves in the Pharisees of Jesus' day... at least to accept that it is possible that those things are addressed to us as a warning, if not a condemnation. (And yes, I used the words "addressed to us" quite literally. The Gospels were written after the Pauline corpus.) Lord, I repent of my dispensationalist sins!
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Abigail
Ha, Dan! See, I knew you were going to be a great addition to this place!! And your St. Peter jokes are killing me!!!! :)
And yes, I suppose there are "innies" in many many walks of life. For myself, I don't like to speculate on someone else's "standing" with God, so to speak. I am not God to know such a thing, nor does it make any difference to me in the grander scheme of things. Love your enemy? I see that as love everyone. Treat everyone with as much respect and love as you can muster.
Not saying I come anywhere close to doing that, but it is at least a worthy endeavor. Roy is a fantastic example in that category. People can be very cruel to him and he never returns fire. Sometimes I think he no longer even has the urge to return fire, though obviously I don't really know that.
Me, I not only have the urge, but I still take the action at least some of the time.
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anotherDan
Having a little fun here, but still waiting on others to weigh in on some of these serious matters... They're hard, some of them. My answers would all be True except for the last two, where I would have to admit to Unsure. I wish some of your smart people would straighten me out! Where's Linda?
The name of Jesus Christ. We Christians are told to do all things in his name. I'll have to get back to you on that one.
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anotherDan
The doctor told him he was going to die, and he thought about all the things he had accomplished in life. He was a wealthy man who had worked very hard to obtain what he had accumulated, but he was also a godly man who worked as hard for Adonai as for himself. He also gave much to the poor and to his congregation, and he was known in his community to be one to whom any could go for advice, a loan, even a kind word.
But he was dying. He knew that it was not quite kosher, but he asked the angel of death if he could please bring some of the wealth he had accumulated with him, for he had worked hard for it. The angel told him that it had never been done before, but he would see what he could do, since he was the most righteous man he had known in centuries.
Finally, the angel came back and told him, "Adonai has granted you permission, but you may bring only what you can pack in one suitcase."
So the man found the largest of his suitcases. He packed it and let the angel know that he was ready. And he died.
At the pearly gates, St. Peter saw him coming. "Ho there! You cannot bring anything up here from the earth!" he said. The man explained that he had special permission.
St. Peter replied, "This is highly irregular! I will have to ask the Boss."
Peter came back momentarily, and he said, "The Boss says that you may bring it in, but I have to inspect it first."
The man opened the suitcase, and St. Peter looked inside. It was jam-packed with bright, shining gold bouillon! St. Peter stood back with a puzzled look on his face. "I guess you can take it in," he said, "but why do you want to bring in street pavement?"
Come on, Socks, T-Bone, InvisibleDan, all you others. Are you going to take the quiz? "Is that your final answer?"
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Abigail
Thanks, Dan, but honestly it is simply a matter of having been around this place for nearly 7 years and therefore having plenty of time to get to know the "regulars," a number of which I have also gotten to know via PM and emails, and a growing handful of which I have even had the pleasure of meeting face to face.
For me this place is a godsend. With a husband, two young boys, and a job, I simply don't have a lot of left over time for going out for coffee a few times a week with friends, etc. Add to that my skittishness of organized religion and my loathing of gossip and it becomes very difficult to find people who are willing to have discussions of this nature on a regular basis.
Here I have nearly the best of it all. The availability to come and visit during times that fit my lifestyle. The freedom to learn at my own pace without compulsion, and a group of people who may not all believe as I do (which is great, IMO) but are still interested in learning. The only downside is that I haven't gotten to meet more people face to face and I don't get to see those I have met as often as I would like to.
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