I remember spending a great deal of time a while back looking for proof of a mustard plant that grew to be as large as a tree and unable to find a darn thing. There are different varieties of mustard plants, but none that grow large enough to provide homes for birds.
This website is a fascinating gallery and encyclopedia of plants mentioned in the Bible.
In fact, the small stature of the mustard plant and the pungent flavor of it's seed suggest to my mind what the church ought to be--lowly and unimpressive, but powerful, even pungent, influence on society.
*shrug* "suggest to my mind" seems to be the operative phrase here. Although, I will say I agree with him that churches should be understated and humble, not the monstrosities run by ministers worth millions of dollars living in palatial homes with $23,000 toilets.
Why does Jesus say that this mustard seed, which is supposed to to be lowly and unimpressive, will provoke false growth. It will stimulate a false system that will be characterized by an abition to be dominant, impressive, and powerful. It will seek worldwide influence, and as a result, satanic forces will take up residence by the birds that nests in the branches of the mustard plant.
I re-read all three accounts of this parable and do not see in any of them where Jesus says it is "false growth". :huh: I don't see where Jesus says any of this that he's saying it does.
He's comparing the mustard plant to the Kingdom of God, not the church.... unless they are the same thing? Are they the same thing? I don't think so, but that's my opinion.
So, using the power of the Rosetta Stone, we see what the birds nesting in the mustard plant represent: evil forces, satanic forces, that invade and nest within the kingdom.
What the heck does the Rosetta Stone have to do with this?? :huh: I think I'm missing something here....
It seems to be straining gnats to me.... not much different from what we did in TWI.
Word or words used before - mustard seed = believing (Mat 17:20, Luk 17:6)
Seed = Word of God (Mat 13:18-ff)
The Parable of the Sower - (at Mark 4:1-20, Matthew 13:1-23, and Luke 8:1-15) - the freshly sown seed is snatched away by the fowls of the air (satan)
If the seed is nurtured, fed and properly cultivated it grows so big and strong that the birds can not snatch it away.
The mustard seed is so small that the fowls can literally eat it. But if it’s planted and allowed to grow, it becomes so big that the only thing that the fowls can do against that tree, is to lodge in its branches. Do you think that birds bother a tree? It’s probably not bothered by humans! It’s too big and strong. It’s like there not even there.
When we plant the Word in our hearts, the seed is very small and insignificant, it’s at this time the Satan represented as fowls of the air come looming in around us. To the small size of that seed the birds seem like 747 airplanes. The spirits of darkness are TEMPORARILY stronger than us. “Then cometh the devil to take out the word that is sown in the heart”. He uses affliction and persecution in the beginning phases. Then after the seed has sunk roots and has become stronger, he employs different tactics, he attempts to CHOKE the word, with “the cares of this world the deceitfulness of riches and the lust of other things”. But if the seed is allowed to grow, with time the tree will become a 747 to the birds. In other words their non-existent as far as their influence goes.
Sunny, we learned well in TWI how to twist, manipulate and present the scriptures to say what we want them to say. That mustard seed could be the word of God, it could be a church, it could be faith, it could be any number of things.... all of which can be justified and proven depending on how one presents the "evidence".
I doubt if any one interpretation is right - there are a lot of lessons in the scriptures and a lot of what we see, feel and learn from them is going to depend on where we are personally in our own lives, what lessons we need/want to be learning at that particular time and so many other influences. I hope that helps, if not, well, it's been a fun exercise anyway. Thank you. :)
Matthew 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:
32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.
Matthew 17: 20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Mark 4:31 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:
32 But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.
Luke 13:19 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it.
Luke 17:6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.
mustard - G4615. sinapi, sin'-ap-ee; perh. from sinomai (to hurt, i.e. sting); mustard (the plant):--mustard.
The kindom is like the key could be "like"
other wise the kingdom of heaven is like a plant that grows to be a tree were the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof
a change other then our eyes can see that which is above reason
that which seems unreal fleshly because fleshly it is but we are talking about spiritual
Jesus was talking about what can be not what is or what will be not that which was
Sorry Sunny friend, I would be of no help on this one. Never really looked into it. Belle did a good job looking stuff up though.
I only suggest that in class, you might want to take the opportunity to challenge everyone to ''think'' for themselves, and see if they can research it and share the results in class.
It will get them to not put themselves in a denominational box and it may help foster a greater appreciation for other views.
Maybe the very fact that mustard doesn't grow that big is an integral element of the parable.
I think you may have hit the nail on the head.
In Bible times, the mustard plant wasn't even allowed to be planted in a garden. and, if the fowls occupy this plant, they will soon mess it all up. According to some, the fowls are the ministers of the wicked one from Verse 19.
Makes sense to me.
Sunny, it seems the other folks are wrapped up in tradition and don't want to even consider another view. Their loss.
But is this a battle you can win with them? -- I have found that many times it's not worth the effort.
Some folks are so "right" on certain things that they won't even look. -- Debate over.
Study groups like yours are great for discussion. Everyone contributes.
I was in a group that studied the gospel of John, last year. Parables seem to inevitably generate lively discussion. That's what they're designed to do, they say something is like something else. The kingdom of heaven is like...How is it like that? Why? What's Jesus saying, what's He mean, what's that mean to me? These are all questions that will be personalized by the hearer. Parables don't say "this IS exactly like THAT". The comparisons are loose and don't seem to make sense sometimes when they're screwed down tight and in fact they may generate more questions than answers in discussion.
Steadman's beat on the mustard tree isn't that off kilter, in context. Comparing the kingdom of heaven to a mustard seed growing, with birds in it's branches, isn't exactly the clear cut image of a great and glorious tree that one might expect of the "kingdom of heaven". Jesus was being...hmmmmmmm...it reads like it was meant to generate thought in the listener. :)
I sat through a lecture recently by a Dr. James Fleming, an archeologist. He lived in Israel the majority of his life. He had PICTURES. I got to see mustard. Actually, it is a weed. Plants are everywhere. He showed a picture of where Jesus spoke that parable (or supposedly spoke it). It was surrounded by mustard. So, as he spoke it, the people around saw it. It was NOT wanted. Goats and sheep wouldn't even eat it. It has sharp leaves. Anyway, he believes the parables were true and meant to be shocking. He has a booklet just on the parables, but I didn't get it. An interesting sideline was that Jesus may have had what we would call a 6th grade education, yet the authority he spoke with was quite recognized. He also said that wheat and weeds were late bloomers. He said some neat stuff about some of the other parables also. He has a museum in LaGrange, GA with life-size models from biblical times. Web site: www.biblicalresources.net. I haven't gone there, but there might be something helpful.
I also lead a bible study group at church and I love it. We've been together four years now. We pretty much know who believes what, but I never let anyone, including myself, think they are right and everyone else is wrong. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I basically just try to keep them questioning. It keeps me on my toes.
Here is a very straight forward and to the point explanation of mustard from the Nelson Bible Dictionary.
PLANTS
Mustard. A plant which grew wild along roadsides and in fields, reaching a height of about 4.6 meters (15 feet). The black mustard of Palestine seems to be the species to which Jesus referred (Matt 13:31-32; Mark 4:31-32; Luke 13:19). It was cultivated for its seeds which were used as a condiment and for oil.
The mustard seed was the smallest seed known in Jesus' day (Matt 13:32). Nevertheless, Jesus said that if one has faith as a mustard seed, he can move mountains (Matt 17:20) or transplant a mulberry tree in the sea (Luke 17:6).
Right on, Sunnyfla. I'm sure your meeting will go well.
I'm of the mind that Jesus's parables often had more than one level of meaning, and really won't make sense if we restrict them and squeeze 'em too tight. :)
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cman
seems there is a lot on this SunnyFla
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Belle
Sunny,
I remember spending a great deal of time a while back looking for proof of a mustard plant that grew to be as large as a tree and unable to find a darn thing. There are different varieties of mustard plants, but none that grow large enough to provide homes for birds.
This website is a fascinating gallery and encyclopedia of plants mentioned in the Bible.
*shrug* "suggest to my mind" seems to be the operative phrase here. Although, I will say I agree with him that churches should be understated and humble, not the monstrosities run by ministers worth millions of dollars living in palatial homes with $23,000 toilets.
I re-read all three accounts of this parable and do not see in any of them where Jesus says it is "false growth". :huh: I don't see where Jesus says any of this that he's saying it does.He's comparing the mustard plant to the Kingdom of God, not the church.... unless they are the same thing? Are they the same thing? I don't think so, but that's my opinion.
What the heck does the Rosetta Stone have to do with this?? :huh: I think I'm missing something here....
It seems to be straining gnats to me.... not much different from what we did in TWI.
Here's another way of looking at the parable....
Word or words used before - mustard seed = believing (Mat 17:20, Luk 17:6)
Seed = Word of God (Mat 13:18-ff)
The Parable of the Sower - (at Mark 4:1-20, Matthew 13:1-23, and Luke 8:1-15) - the freshly sown seed is snatched away by the fowls of the air (satan)
If the seed is nurtured, fed and properly cultivated it grows so big and strong that the birds can not snatch it away.
Sunny, we learned well in TWI how to twist, manipulate and present the scriptures to say what we want them to say. That mustard seed could be the word of God, it could be a church, it could be faith, it could be any number of things.... all of which can be justified and proven depending on how one presents the "evidence".
I doubt if any one interpretation is right - there are a lot of lessons in the scriptures and a lot of what we see, feel and learn from them is going to depend on where we are personally in our own lives, what lessons we need/want to be learning at that particular time and so many other influences. I hope that helps, if not, well, it's been a fun exercise anyway. Thank you. :)
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year2027
God first
Beloved Sunnyfla
God loves you my dear friend
lets look and see
The kindom is like the key could be "like"
other wise the kingdom of heaven is like a plant that grows to be a tree were the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof
a change other then our eyes can see that which is above reason
that which seems unreal fleshly because fleshly it is but we are talking about spiritual
Jesus was talking about what can be not what is or what will be not that which was
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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bliss
Sorry Sunny friend, I would be of no help on this one. Never really looked into it. Belle did a good job looking stuff up though.
I only suggest that in class, you might want to take the opportunity to challenge everyone to ''think'' for themselves, and see if they can research it and share the results in class.
It will get them to not put themselves in a denominational box and it may help foster a greater appreciation for other views.
btw, how's it going????
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waysider
Mustard just doesn't get that big here in the Midwest.
Maybe it did in Bible times. Maybe it didn't.
Who knows?
What bothers me, is that Pillai said he had seen this plant, alive and thriving, in the twentieth century.
How come nobody else did?
Anyway, it's a parable.
It's not meant to be accepted as literal fact anyhow.
That's how parables work.
Maybe the very fact that mustard doesn't grow that big is an integral element of the parable.
Dunno.
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Goey
I think you may have hit the nail on the head.
In Bible times, the mustard plant wasn't even allowed to be planted in a garden. and, if the fowls occupy this plant, they will soon mess it all up. According to some, the fowls are the ministers of the wicked one from Verse 19.
Makes sense to me.
Sunny, it seems the other folks are wrapped up in tradition and don't want to even consider another view. Their loss.
But is this a battle you can win with them? -- I have found that many times it's not worth the effort.
Some folks are so "right" on certain things that they won't even look. -- Debate over.
Minister's wives can be tought nuts to crack.
Good luck.
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socks
Study groups like yours are great for discussion. Everyone contributes.
I was in a group that studied the gospel of John, last year. Parables seem to inevitably generate lively discussion. That's what they're designed to do, they say something is like something else. The kingdom of heaven is like...How is it like that? Why? What's Jesus saying, what's He mean, what's that mean to me? These are all questions that will be personalized by the hearer. Parables don't say "this IS exactly like THAT". The comparisons are loose and don't seem to make sense sometimes when they're screwed down tight and in fact they may generate more questions than answers in discussion.
Steadman's beat on the mustard tree isn't that off kilter, in context. Comparing the kingdom of heaven to a mustard seed growing, with birds in it's branches, isn't exactly the clear cut image of a great and glorious tree that one might expect of the "kingdom of heaven". Jesus was being...hmmmmmmm...it reads like it was meant to generate thought in the listener. :)
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irisheyes
I sat through a lecture recently by a Dr. James Fleming, an archeologist. He lived in Israel the majority of his life. He had PICTURES. I got to see mustard. Actually, it is a weed. Plants are everywhere. He showed a picture of where Jesus spoke that parable (or supposedly spoke it). It was surrounded by mustard. So, as he spoke it, the people around saw it. It was NOT wanted. Goats and sheep wouldn't even eat it. It has sharp leaves. Anyway, he believes the parables were true and meant to be shocking. He has a booklet just on the parables, but I didn't get it. An interesting sideline was that Jesus may have had what we would call a 6th grade education, yet the authority he spoke with was quite recognized. He also said that wheat and weeds were late bloomers. He said some neat stuff about some of the other parables also. He has a museum in LaGrange, GA with life-size models from biblical times. Web site: www.biblicalresources.net. I haven't gone there, but there might be something helpful.
I also lead a bible study group at church and I love it. We've been together four years now. We pretty much know who believes what, but I never let anyone, including myself, think they are right and everyone else is wrong. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I basically just try to keep them questioning. It keeps me on my toes.
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Sunnyfla
Thanks everyone,
Your replys have helped me put this subject in a better perspective.
Like Belle was saying about the "straining of gnats and how it wasn't much different from twi" I felt that in me for the first
time since leaving twi. I guess because twi always had(or they thought) the answer and was right and taught us that God is
not a God of confusion, which He isn't, but you know why they used that so much on us. Well, I was confused, and not
happy about how they were handleing it and basically chalked it off as (this commentary is wrong and didn't want to discuss
the issue.) I'm certainly not going to argue about it either, like the old days.
Belle: Thank you for looking up stuff and giving me places to check out. I like the Bible Plant encyclopedia. Your view on
this was highly noted.
Year 2007: Your so kind and thank you for views
waysider: Your right... it is a Parable after all. This is how Jesus taught in many ways to those who didn't understand
spiritual matters. Even His deciples weren't that clear on what He was saying, so He explains it to them.. And we still don't
get it!! :huh:
Goey: You had a good point about the ones who are wrapped up into traditions. Now, I myself don't know much about
these traditions, like this one, and that's why I'm here hoping you all could explain a little of this stuff to me. I knew twi
never touched on this, but I've been wrong before. I'm surprised they didn't try to put this one into their way of belief
socks: Yes, I agree. I love my study group. Many are of the Catholic background and next week we are getting into Jesus
siblings.. That will be interesting. They all have such wonderful hearts and really want to learn more about the bible. For
some, this is their first bible study and had to go and get thier first bible ever. I pray a lot for them and that God will teach
them what He wants them to learn each week... and He does. They share everything during the discussion, sometimes we
don't finish the study and that's ok at times. And I actually like Steadman's take on the mustard seed and the Kingdom of
God. It made sence to me.. what can I say?
Bliss: Thanks for adding your comments. I had actually told a few of them to look up material on the mustard seed and
bring it in tomarrow. It'll be a good discussion.
We are all doing great... e-mail me
irisheyes: Thanks for the web site. I'll definitly look that up. I liked everything you said about Dr. Flemimg. A Very insiteful
lecture. Thanks for shareing it .
If I get stuck again, I hope you won't mind if I call on you all.
XOXO
Sunnyfla
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Mark Sanguinetti
Here is a very straight forward and to the point explanation of mustard from the Nelson Bible Dictionary.
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socks
Right on, Sunnyfla. I'm sure your meeting will go well.
I'm of the mind that Jesus's parables often had more than one level of meaning, and really won't make sense if we restrict them and squeeze 'em too tight. :)
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Sunnyfla
Thankfully, nothing came up at the meeting. It was as if they all didn't notice it at all
So, I didn't bring it up. The only thing that one of the ladies had a question on was where did the legion of evil spirits go
when they went into the pigs and off the cliff. That was in the study along with the mustard seed parable. I told her , I don't
know, the main point was that Jesus cast out the spirits from the man and he became normal again and was to be a witness
to the religious leaders. And wasn't it interesting that the people wanted Jesus to leave thier town after that had happened?
Why? Well, according to this teaching. The swine were the Jews source of income. They evidently sold them to the Romans.
So, if course they would be a little angry to see all 2,000 of them running off the cliff and drown.
I never heard that teaching from twi either. Just thought I would run that across you guys.
XOXO
Sunnyfla
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