I've always had a ying/yang thing going in my personality. Like, when I was about 11, knee deep in Catholic Parochial education, I decided that being a priest would be cool. I was a fairly serious thinker (then as now I guess) and I figured, "if anyone understands what all this is about, priests do". Kids, huh?
At the same time, same year, I was raisin' serious Cain with my teachers, askin' questions like "why are we so sure there's a heaven"? and "how do we know there's a God"? It got so "bad" that mid year or so the Sistern called my parents in to talk to them about how I was developing "Communist" views...! No kidding, really happened. 11 years old, I'm a communist, right? Pass the vodka!
So here I am, a kid, looking for "answers" and thinking I'll be a priest, and at the same time I was questioning openly the whole religious thing. Later in high school, I met a priest, "Father Donovan", who told me he'd quit high school in Ireland and hitchhiked around Europe for a few years, questioning everything he'd been raised to believe and finally came back to the Catholic faith.
So there he was, and he actually encouraged me to a/question everything and b/definitely wait to even think about being a priest, till I'd had a chance to grow up a little. By then I wasn't interested, (I was surrounded by Catholic girls in pleated skirts!) but it was interesting advice.
So long story longer, I've found I've always been kind of like that. A non-joiner who likes to join things and then try to change them. Doesn't make sense, does it? So now I don't look to join anything. If something comes along I want to be a part of, I do it, but I'm really careful about making committments because I know how I am.
I work hard and heavy on things I believe in but I also know things change - they're supposed to I think. I personally believe that the one thing that doesn't is "love", definable on any number of levels. That's all I'm looking to carry away to the last moment I take a breath. And maybe a hug or two and a nice guitar in hand, if I have my druthers...
I place highest on my list of "things I belong to" my family, our kids, marriage, and friends (which is just about anybody that doesn't try to screw me) and that's about it. "Intangible assets" I guess.
Hmmm...nother long post, not much said. But it's something...let's all sing a song...
A group of people having something in common, and having the desire to be 'likeminded' and having 'singleness of heart' about it now being also considered as Yet Another Definition of 'cult'.
Hhmmmmmmm.
"I know there are specific definitions for a cult, but aren't there organizations out there that aren't of a religious nature that can be considered "cult-like"?"
And why is it that seeking out community of like-minded people, or those with 'singleness of heart' must be regarded as being a possible 'cult-like' group in the 1st place?
"I'm not suggesting that EVERY group with a common goal is a cult. What I'm trying to say is do WE, survivors of a cult, MAKE these organizations cult-like because of our TWI involvement?"
Tell me something. How do you know it isn't because we have, by default, accepted the 'anti-cult experts' supposed *authority* as final; upon which standard everything else 'cult'-related is judged. We see something similar to how something was done in TWI, or hear phrases used, or concepts mentioned, and how many of us automatically, in even a knee-jerk fashion, refer back to "Uh ohh, this sounds like a 'cult'", even w/o stopping to analytically think about what is actually going on?
Nothing personal here, Hope. Just some more points to consider.
Great topic, Hope...just one I was thinking about recently.
When I left twi, I started out alone. When the masses weren't there anymore, and I was left to my own devices, it was very obvious that there was something wrong.
A few guys from AA noticed me, and thought I was high on cocaine...but in actuality>
I smoked 2 packs of cigarettes a day, and at least 10 cups of coffee. (necessary witnessing items, ya know )...and was flying...
They suggested I had an addiction problem...I immediately entered ACOA meetings where I found out I had "renewed my mind" into absolute complacency...I had no feelings.
So, I went cold turkey on the smokes...and, it was a few more months before the coffee went...That's when I really cracked...my "cover-ups" were no longer there. It's easy to suck on a smoke, and down coffee...people expect you to be anxious and high...but, it's not natural...not if you are looking for "self-actualization" (a term I picked up and strived for as a psych major in college).
I spent every day at an ACOA meeting...I entered individual therapy and group therapy. Every penny I made went to my "recovery".
I learned many things...and have gone many places...
Fact is...I NEEDED the group and like-minded people to validate my feelings...hundreds of them...I needed their support and shoulders.
The difference with this group of people was...Noone, not one, told me how to think, or what to believe, or tell me I was wrong for any choices I made.
Perhaps I'll re-write that in bold type:
NO ONE, NOT ONE, TOLD ME HOW TO THINK, OR WHAT TO BELIEVE, OR TELL ME I WAS WRONG FOR ANY CHOICES I MADE.
People need people (that's what makes us the luckiest people in the world, doncha know?)...and groups are not bad, they are necessary...and like-minded groups give us a sense of esteem and validation for our choices. I don't think criticizing or judging another group is ever justified...because each group has it's own merits...each is necessary, even if for nothing else, but for a good fight.
However,
When and if a group gets to the point where members are controlled or manipulated in any way....when a person feels betraying because they don't attend the group...
When the group becomes more important than caring for yourself, your family or your environment...
Then, I deem it unhealthy.
Get out.
Get help.
...We've slipped back into codependency...and, unless we wanna live unhappy, unfulfilled lives,..then codependency is NOT the place we want to be.
I think this controlling cultic philosophy has been around since cave-man times...even further...In business its called politics, in politics its called self preservation under the guise of being better for others, I have been a part of a lot of groups, PTA, Cub Scouts, Sports programs included, I think its a tendency of human nature in a primordial kind of way. Areas of people or groups that aren't so controlling seem to have at least subliminally acknowledged that humans dont always have to be controlled. Influence goes a lot farther than control
and HEY---IM BACK ----after computer crashes and losts of other busy things
and Hope, yes I miss the cozies, but really do get it from my own family more now.
I finish my profile with all the im junk later, just had a few minutes.
The other thing I remembered as I was drifting off to sleep last night was something called "K-M".
There was a whole group of people who left TWI in the late 80's and got involved with a MLM group that sold this product called "K-M". It was this nasty brown drink that was supposed to heal all wounds (can you say "snake-oil"?)
Anyway - we got a call from someone who was trying to recruit us into selling, or at the least, buying the product. I remember this woman telling me she had just gotten back from a K-M Seminar and told me "it's just like PFAL!"
It got really popular among the ex-Way folks here. I don't think it lasted all that long - but I remember thinking... "if it's just like PFAL, then why did you leave the ministry?" (of course, I was still in!)
Someone I knew who was a Tupperware rep told me the National Tupperware Jamboree (Jubilee?) was "just like the Rock!"
(Sorta when someone tells you that fried squirrel "tastes just like chicken"... yeah... I'll take the chicken, thank you!)
Garth - I probably shouldn't have used the word "cult" in reference to anything other than TWI - what I meant was a group that had cult-like tendencies... the "look and feel" so to speak. And I never said that being likeminded was another definition of a cult... just that many of us may be drawn to other organizations that were like that.
I've never read the list of what defines a cult because it does change from author to author. I know there are certain characteristics in these groups that are common in every "cult" (use another word... "sect", "faction").
I'm not trying to re-define the word "cult". I guess my question is for those who consider TWI a cult. If you don't - the question is moot.
And perhaps we DO have a knee-jerk reaction when something is similar to TWI - I know I do! But I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with that. We're more aware of the manipulative tactics that cults use, and since we've been there, done that, we know when to disassociate ourselves from that group.
And I almost agree with Wacky when she said... "and groups are not bad, they are necessary...and like-minded groups give us a sense of esteem and validation for our choices."
But shouldn't we be able to validate our choices based on the results of those choices, rather than what everyone else thinks of them? Yes, it's nice when someone says "I like your shoes"... but I know I would buy shoes I like without needing anyone else's approval!
And I know that:
"No Man is an island, entire of itself;
Every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main..."
So living like Ted Kosinski isn't an option either!
Hope asked, "... do WE, survivors of a cult, MAKE these organizations cult-like because of our TWI involvement?"
This question assumes that peoples' following the pack, letting an organization dictate to them, allowing its "leaders" to manipulate them, etc., started with twi. I contend that it didn't.
I instead think twi became a "cult" to people to the degree they were vulnerable to handing the reins of their horse over to another person/group.
I still say twi was most "cult-like" to those who were inclined to follow the pack unquestioningly, allow an organization to tell them what to do and let so-called leaders manipulate them.
That's not a slam against anyone. I think most all of us were influenced by the twi organization and its "leaders" to some degree. I just think some of us tended to relinquish control of their lives and decisions more than others.
I still don't like the use of the word "cult" because it's too loaded--loaded with emotion and loaded with so many shades of meaning that it loses meaning and loaded with pseudo-psychological definitions from people who encourage thinking that, to my mind, is just as "cult-like" as any alleged cult members'.
I recently read an article by a prof from a local university, challenging a lot of the "cult" cliches. He suggested the use of a different term: "high-demand religion." That, to me, communicates what twi was (and is) a whole lot better than a word whose meaning is so subjective. To me it says clearly what was wrong with twi, without all the excess pseudo-psych baggage. I like it.
"I still don't like the use of the word 'cult' because it's too loaded--loaded with emotion and loaded with so many shades of meaning that it loses meaning and loaded with pseudo-psychological definitions from people who encourage thinking that, to my mind, is just as 'cult-like' as any alleged cult members'."
What you have stated here is putting it most concisely what I have always felt, and many times failed to put into such a clear form! Thank you!!
The main reason I use the word "cult" to describe TWI really has nothing to do with definitions, I do it for me.
For a long time, I couldn't even use the word in reference to TWI. Oh, it was okay to use it about the Moonies, or the People's Temple, or the anyone BUT The Way.
As far as "high demand religion" goes - I think of the Mormons or the JW's. Maybe it's because they have so many followers, I don't know. And TWI HATED the word "religion". And though I think the term could apply perhaps to TWI 1, I think TWI 2 under LCM's leadership became a text-book cult.
And, Linda, I agree with what you said:
"I still say twi was most "cult-like" to those who were inclined to follow the pack unquestioningly, allow an organization to tell them what to do and let so-called leaders manipulate them."
But weren't all of us in that boat at one time or another in our TWI lives? How about those of us who went through the Corps? Or WOW? For me, I think my Corps years were the few years I was a "lemming for Loy". After I graduated, the adulation started to wear off and slowly but surely I began to think for myself again.
But as I said earlier, this thread isn't really about defining the word "cult". I'll call it whatever you want me to. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck...
All I was merely asking is if anyone got involved with another "group-think" organization after leaving TWI because it "felt" like the TWI they were first attracted to. I know I saw it in my area, I was just wondering if anyone else saw that pattern.
You said we were drawn into TWI because we LIKED the whole idea of being "likeminded" with other people? That "singleness of heart" and "undivided loyalty" was like a magnet for many of us?
I think that's true. Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing, I think depends on how intensely the person feels this desire or need and how the group takes advantage of it.
When you & I got involved, the way did not abuse that desire in it's followers as much as it did in later years. As it got better at manipulating and taking advantage of that need or desire then more and more people left. Those that are still there probably have that need to a dysfunctional degree.
In other words, I think there's a continuum not a sharp point at which it becomes good or bad (I won't say cult-like or not because that word has other pieces to it). Maybe there are even two continuums - one for the degree of the need in the person and one for the degree of the group to use or abuse that.
When I was in therapy, my shrink used the term "closed society" to indicate situations where your work, home and social lives are all tied into the same group of people. Cults are like this to an extreme, but to a different degree, and for a different purpose, the military, police and other professions are closed societies as well.
The main reason I use the word "cult" to describe TWI really has nothing to do with definitions, I do it for me.
For a long time, I couldn't even use the word in reference to TWI. Oh, it was okay to use it about the Moonies, or the People's Temple, or the anyone BUT The Way.
As far as "high demand religion" goes - I think of the Mormons or the JW's. Maybe it's because they have so many followers, I don't know. And TWI HATED the word "religion". And though I think the term could apply perhaps to TWI 1, I think TWI 2 under LCM's leadership became a text-book cult.
And, Linda, I agree with what you said:
_"I still say twi was most "cult-like" to those who were inclined to follow the pack unquestioningly, allow an organization to tell them what to do and let so-called leaders manipulate them." _
But weren't all of us in that boat at one time or another in our TWI lives? How about those of us who went through the Corps? Or WOW? For me, I think my Corps years were the few years I was a "lemming for Loy". After I graduated, the adulation started to wear off and slowly but surely I began to think for myself again.
But as I said earlier, this thread isn't really about defining the word "cult". I'll call it whatever you want me to. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck...
All I was merely asking is if anyone got involved with another "group-think" organization after leaving TWI because it "felt" like the TWI they were first attracted to. I know I saw it in my area, I was just wondering if anyone else saw that pattern.
Hope, Call it whatever you want to call it. Cult. High-demand religion. Pile of s**t, whatever.
Linda and I aren't telling you what to call TWI, just bringing up some points re: the usage of the word, as well as in relation to your points on our apparent social needs for 'like minded' groups.
It is only recently that I have begun to use the word "cult" to describe twi, but in using it I think of the twi that I left, not the twi that I joined up with in 1977. Think of the hordes of people that actually took piffle and later were free to consider that that it was time to move on. There was no "with us or against us" mentality until the early 90's - at least not that I felt at the twig level.
What attracted me to twi was the light in the eyes of the people and speaking in tongues. Having read the gospel many times over (but not venturing into Acts)I was fascinated by the ability to do this and to have some sort of proof that Christianity is the real deal. I hesitated at the very thought of being likeminded and wanted to believe that I was still an independent thinker-- fortunately the people that were around me when I got in were all stubborn and intelligent folks. Later I bucked the system and argued against ignorance many times -- I won't bore you guys with the details but let's just say that I had a hard time buddying it up with the most waybrained folks cuz frankly, they were idiots. IMHO
I love Linda's term, "high-demand religion" and I would put twi in that category pre-pop and even post-pop-- for most twi peons...up until the end of the wow program the roa and the beginning of wap classs and the purge etc. Then it was cult all the way, supreme loyalty, extortion of time and money, threats for non-compliance.
But before that time, I see that the the belief system of our "high demand religion" became ever more narrow as the years went on, filled with a shared language and experiences.
In considering this, I would have to say I became more "cult-like" in conforming myself to the behaviors of the group for acceptance, even if I did not agree with the teachings and practices. I was not afraid for my safety to leave twi, I was afraid of the ensuing isolation that would occur by severing myself to twi's apron strings. Who could I talk to in twi shorthand and who would there be to really understand me? What church could I ever fit into? I wanted what I was used to but I hated what it had become! I hated myself for becoming a person that was forced to play a part in order to stay.
Isn't that cult-like behavior?
I insisted upon getting my bachelors degree before going wow and I refused every opportunity to take the advanced class and would not consider applying to the corps or way college. I had even refused to take pfal right away, I was 6 months *in* before I felt I had to take "the class" to get all my quesitons answered.
It must have seemed selfish of me to have no ambition and insist upon my peon status, but I was afraid go into the "inner" circle of twi and I really felt that God worked best one-on-one and and not in a political/competitive situation. I also did not regularly tithe because I suspected that twi was self-serving as I never heard of "The Way" help anyone financially.
Although I fought against likemindedness, by the time I was no longer welcome my sense of self was so tied into twi that the pain of separation seemed excrutiating at times, like divorce.
In this respect, I do not feel that I joined a cult but I did become a cult member.
Lots of food for thought here.
Edited twice for grammer and spelling
[This message was edited by Hopefull on June 14, 2002 at 13:29.]
[This message was edited by Hopefull on June 14, 2002 at 13:33.]
Rather than getting in the discussion of cult terms and their accuracy, this thread has had me thinking along some other lines. Perhaps some experts would call it some nicely packaged term or disorder; I think about the term used as addictive personality or faults. But, I see where my self and others that were in TWI could not live a *normal* church or acceptable life according to society.
When I turn 17 and partook of some of the taboo evils of our day and time, it wasn?t long I was completely *sold-out* to those things and running around promoting the same. I had *turned-on* and was going to do all I could to *turn-on* all that I could reach. Never had I been able to participate in any thing I enjoyed with out going almost *whole-hog* with my involvement.
Then there is also the involvement=volunteer and service aspect to consider. From a youth it was ingrained in me to get involved and always help out and do my part for the organization. I did this with the boy scouts, 4H and FFA, when there was something to be done. I was one of the dependable members in the group.
Many of the qualities of a good employee are also found in so many of us. Taking the tasks at hand so seriously and not tossing in the towel until the job was done and done right. We were punctual, reliable and trust worthy. Hard working individuals that could be trust to handle tasks and situations with minimum supervision. Of course that trust and the amount we were watched changed in TWI-2.
Perhaps the best way I have heard it explained is that so many of us were good *cause* orientated and motivated people. We chose what we believed to be a high cause, heck we were lead to believe it was the Highest cause and we were then taken in and taken advantage of. TWI took a lot of great people that were easily motivated and would move with things and then got us out and moving their things and while they prospered and moved their hidden agendas????..
edited just to *do it*
[This message was edited by Grizz Bear on June 14, 2002 at 16:29.]
I like that term - "closed society". I always used to consider TWI a "sub-culture", I even used it as an example of a sub-culture in my college Sociology class when I went back to school - and I was still IN TWI at the time! (how can there be any "sin" in sincere or "cult" in culture!!)
I think "closed society" is a better description - escpecially for those of us who may have worked for TWI on staff, or even taken our Corps and/or WOW assignments as seriously as we did our secular jobs.
FULL
"I do not feel that I joined a cult but I did become a cult member."
I guess that's the way I feel, too. And I agree with your time-line of when the cult-like part of TWI reared it's ugly head.
But for a long time I LIKED being a part of the group I hooked up with. I liked that "one body", "one heart", "one mind" feeling. Sorta like knowing a secret handshake that only you and a few others get to use!
This year is the first year I haven't been involved in any kind of "group" setting. No TWI or PTA (unless you consider GS a "group"). At first, I wondered "what am I going to do?" As the year progressed, I found that I was happy just being with myself and my family and having a few close friends. I also know I'm still drawn to be part of a group - and that I miss it at times. I was recently asked to be on the PTSA Board at the middle school my youngest will be going to next year. I have to say it's really tempting - and I haven't made a decision yet.
Grizzy... We posted at almost the same time! (Does that make us "like-minded"? )
Volunteering can be taken too seriously in any group. But think of what we all could have done if we'd been volunteers in the Peace Corps instead of the Way Corps! I know I did more for my community in PTA than in TWI!
I think I'm concerned that being part of a group causes a person to lose their sense of self - like it did in those latter years of TWI 2 that Hopefull mentioned. Maybe the longer a person is away from TWI, the more independent minded they become - so there's no "need" for a group, or the group they're a part of doesn't become the main focus of life for that person.
Am I taking all this too seriously? I don't know.
That's why I asked if any of you found yourselves wanting or needing to be part of some kind of group since leaving TWI, and did you take the new group as seriously?
(edited because I wanted to respond to Grizzy - we posted at the same time!)
[This message was edited by Hope R. on June 14, 2002 at 16:28.]
You said...I liked that "one body", "one heart", "one mind" feeling.
This makes me think about the ROA's of the late 70's early 80's and being under the big top tent.
Thousands of good-hearted, altruistic folk singing from the blue book (before it changed to the brown book then back again). Voices swelling in glorious harmony to God, VPW swaying in the background, yes the worship was wonderful BUT BUT BUT...the FEELING you mentioned...it was such a high. Grizz you said this well, it is part of this feeling---We chose what we believed to be a high cause, heck we were lead to believe it was the Highest cause. We were young, healthy and had all the answers and were ready to share it with the world.
Other times I would feel like I was on the outside looking in. I either had an "in or out" kind of experience at the ROA- some years I was more "in" the group than others.
Today I feel too worn out and cynical to be in any kind of a group - nowadays I just try to be decent to people, be true to myself, and have a prayer life with a little humility.
Although a spinoff is not for me I did have the need for SOMETHING because I felt sooo isolated and alone after twi.
I sorta derailed myself, so now that I have a little more time I?ll say what I was going to say when I went off the track. I intended to answer some of your questions, Hope, but I ran out of time.
I honestly didn?t give a hoot about likemindedness and unity and all that when I got into twi. I wasn?t looking for a group to belong to; in fact, I got involved in spite of the fact that twi was a group.
I didn?t jump right into a spin-off group and still haven?t, 13 years after leaving. I had my own reasons for leaving twi, over things I?d seen for myself. I didn?t feel I needed JAL to show me the way out or RD or any former leader from twi who was traveling around the country sounding the alarm (nothing against any of them, but I?d seen enough to know I was outa there). I needed time to sort things out?just God and me?and I took it. I might have been right or wrong about them, but I felt like these guys were gathering a following, and I wanted none of that.
Lest I sound like I think I was so flippin? smart, let me tell you I did some stupid stuff, too, out of a desire to make up for the years I?d lived like a nun and sat through meeting after meeting. But it had nothin? to do with any spin-offs. J
I did hang out for a while with the local excommunicated Corps and others who?d bailed, but they weren?t yet organized into any particular group. I starting seeing signs of SOSDD (same old $hit, different day): followers and an exalted local leader--the former following the latter so closely that if he?d stopped suddenly they?d have quickly found themselves in a place where the sun doesn?t shine. (I think a lot of those people are in Geer?s group today.)
Hope asked, ?Are we just a bunch of people who needed to learn to think for ourselves? Or will we forever be attracted to organizations that encourage a ?cult mentality???
I think the so-called ?cult mentality? is an inside thing, not an outside thing. Yes, if a group makes high demands, whether it?s the PTA, twi or the NRA, and if one has the tendency to get into it gung-ho, then one will exhibit that type of mentality.
If that kind of whole-hog behavior stems from an outside influence, like twi, then how could so many people stay on the fringes of it through the years, yet maintain a limited degree of involvement? There were many like that. They took the classes, they came to fellowships, but they didn?t make it their whole life. By the same token, I?ll bet there were lots of people in the PTA who didn?t get as deeply involved as you did. That?s not a criticism. Being willing to commit to something and give to and work for what you believe is important is a good character trait, as Grizz has said so well. But sometimes our strongest characteristics are those that come around and bite us in the butt.
Examples:
I?m a careful editor. Sometimes I?m so intent doing a good job that I lose sight of the big picture and become nitpicky. Not because I?m generally a nitpicky person, but in my enthusiasm to do a good job, I go past doing my best and head right into overboard!
I?ve seen this in people who are really into fitness. It goes beyond healthy and becomes obsessive.
I could think of a dozen other examples.
As Grizz said, A lot of us had hearts to get involved and help and work hard to get things done. I think that?s why you got so involved in twi and the PTA. There?s got to be a middle ground where a person can be enthusiastic and devoted/committed to something without ending up letting that something dominate life.
?I'm not suggesting that EVERY group with a common goal is a cult. What I'm trying to say is do WE, survivors of a cult, MAKE these organizations cult-like because of our TWI involvement? Do we rely on them the way we relied on TWI in so many ways??
I don?t think so. I think that wherever we go, there we are. I think we made twi a cult to the degree that we relinquished ourselves to it. Was the organization more than happy to accommodate us? Sure.
We can?t change the fact that there are plenty of groups out there that are more than eager to take advantage of pure-hearted, hard-working, devoted types like many of us are. Who could blame them? Where are you going to find such great people who will volunteer and volunteer and give and give? I watched it happen to a relative in the Baptist Church. She?s a doer and a giver and she just did and gave and did and gave until she was burnt out and didn?t know what had hit her.
TWI wasn?t made up of a bunch of soap-opera-watching, bon-bon-popping sluggards who were too lazy to do much more than put new batteries in the TV remote. But I believe we, even being those types of people Grizz described, can learn when to put on the brakes when we?re going too far.
I also believe that as long as we think, ?THEY took my individuality and THEY made me do this or that and THEY stole my years, then WE haven?t yet found the brake pedal. It?s in US. There?s no organization I?ve ever seen that won?t suck you dry if you put yourself in the position for that to happen. Not because all groups are evil, but because when they finally find people who will get off their duffs and care enough to do something, they will gladly receive what those people have to give. They usually won?t say, ?You?re giving too much. Stop. Your work is too good. Please stop.? J
(Sorry this was so long, but I was trying to respond to several of Hope?s posts at once.)
We got out in 89, I went to work for Microsoft in 90. I realized after being there for many years that the cult microsoft also attracted the young folks that had, stamina and arrogance to ?do the job, whatever it takes?. I constantly found myself calling Microsoft Corporate??Headquaters??..hmmm
Found myself volunteering and trying to go the extra mile. It just seemed to be my nature, and
It was my nature- but was I like that before my twi days or after, during, ????
But now it was who I was. I remember once someone saying to me (at Microsoft for a project I
was heavily involved with) ?You know, this company is going to be successful with or without
your input?. I was shocked to think they actually COULD succeed without me!
I stayed involved in the ?causes? but relaxed. The more involved in the company and I saw the ?good o?l
Boys Club? in full swing, -its not who you know but who you blow- concept. Microsoft had so much
Diversity, so much to offer, such a future, what a fellowship, what a joy divine?.
I realized it to was cultish. I got less involved with it. I like Grizz?s term, good employee, I honestly
thought that?s what I was.
I soon got involved with my kids school PTO (ha -we weren?t an Association, WE were and Orginazition?) but realized immediately that the schools were preaching to the choir and ?it just doesn?t matter? was an obvious. The politics involved were (and still are)incredible.
I do not believe I was involved to make the organizations cult like, I believe the cult mentality is already
established like someone already stated. Heck pta has been around for years. I also don?t believe I was
searching for that cozy feeling, sitting through minutes of meetings has NOTHING cozy about it. But I
was involved because I believed in something.
The Word Cult doesn?t evoke emotion in me like Linda stated, embarrassment maybe, but not emotion . Some of the other terms were part of the cult experience, but the duck quacks?. I also {became a cult
Member} the question is when & how?
My kids asked me once what a Hippie was, and I said, ?well we did what we wanted, wore blue jeans,
long hair and protested?. They said, ?Your still a hippie mom!!?
I shared with HopeR that before I went into the corpse someone asked me -- Not to change, Not to come out like the other corpse women?and I promised I wouldn?t. So I am not sure how serious I took the whole shebang. Obviously serious enough to stay involved from 72-89 BUT I kept friends (at home) since childhood,
Still did my thing with evil unbelievers, still partied hardy with those -not of the faith-, still did what I wanted. (the hippie in me)
But also I still listened when leadership advised me to stay in WI when my mother was sick, didn?t go home when my mother died, didn?t move home when I should have, didn?t didn?t didn?t?..my ideas and
beliefs were swayed to the closed society. I didn?t join a spin off group, took me years to even go to church! (but alas I have found a church home for my daughter and me.)
Also finances were always a struggle while involved, twi made
sure of that for us peons, the upper echelons were taken care of by us worker bees. But also I must admit,
Corpse week was the loneliest time of my life. ROA was work, traveling to and from was a burden, sending my kids off was a heartbreak, missing my family was difficult, being poorer than dirt was sad.
CULT mentality made sure my believing DID NOT equal receiving?
That's why I asked if any of you found yourselves wanting or needing to be part of some kind of group since leaving TWI, and did you take the new group as seriously?
In answer to this question, I saw almost everyone I knew leave TWI and go into something else. I personally did not want to join or go to ANYTHING where I might have to join, stay, be nice to people -- anything. I departed and wanted to hide.
I felt as though I was trying to outrun a pyroclastic cloud. I left during the big out in the 80?s and we were all kind of scrambling for validation. We left and kept fighting the draw to go back. -- Not that we wanted to return but it was like driving by an accident and having the need to look, Then later maybe search for it in the newspaper to see WHAT HAPPENED?
I disconnected from people, changed my phone number and disappeared. I could not be comfortable in any MEETINGS. I had this feeling it would never end -- like in the corps. Looking at it now, I, who was very sanguine (having a need for people and approval) became withdrawn and tried to recover and figure things out by myself.
But my friends? One became HUGE in Mary Kay because it was just like the ROA and her meetings were just like twig. Another went on to join an immediate post-POP splinter. A male friend did sell that weird brown drink K something, etc.
I think people look for things in common. When I was on a first date and if the guy like the same color I did, I was thrilled we had that in common. It was part of the first date magic . However, after I discovered he was a lazy drunkard, then I did not give a crap what colors he liked.
Did I originally get involved because of like-mindedness? No. I got involved because I desperately needed to see the power of God in my life and I saw it upon taking PFAL. I hated a lot of the likeminded concept i.e., like if you were not smiling people would ask you what was wrong all the time, because we were all suppose to be so da^^n happy. I hated the way we were all suppose to be nice all the time.
I recall a "LEADER" wanted to butt in line corps week when the food was slow for those of us last in line. He went up the line asking each person if he could get in front of them and they all politely say YES! He!l, I am from the North East and we hardly ever let someone butt in line!!! So, I said "no, I have been waiting here for a very long time and I have to be some where just like you do, so you can just get in line."
It did not bode well.
I was never a fan of the likeminded bull.
I was a fan of the legitimate love (like-mindedness?) we all shared for God. I did love a large group of people worshiping God. I did love being around people that loved God and that I could grab almost anyone and say, "do you want to pray?" I LOVED that.
I did like being in a large group that sang praises to our Lord. I enjoyed we all were doing it at the same time (like minded, I guess) But it is not why I got involved. It is perhaps a strong reason why I stayed.
Hope, it factored in I am sure but was not the original reason I got involved.
Garth, I actually see consistency in Hope's original post. She seems to define a cult in terms of what it was like in her life...whether it be TWI, or PTA. She defines it in terms of HER experience and not someone else's. It leaves open the possibility that either the TWI or the PTA experience may not be a cult in someone else's life.
Anyway, I see a lot fewer problems with that definition than with the one that imposes the definition for someone else's life...that is, "you were in a cult and under mind control and if you believe you are/were not, you are just being waybrained"...or "PTAbrained."
Whatever the terminology...cult, closed society, etc...The Way was quite in a 'nuther category from mainstream denominations.
The Way separated people from the wider society by using an inside lingo, replete with MANY unique definitions of common words, a unique & separate culture. 3 Cents nailed the problem in his post.
Mainstream denominations avoid using inside-only loaded language. They communicate using accepted meanings for common words. If somebody doesn't want to call this "cult', that's fine with me. Whatever you call it, it is vERY different from mainstream denominations, clubs, groups, etc.A closed society, no matter how beneficient on the surface, is ultimately destructive. God is about relationships and His redemptive work is for the whole world........
I gues what Hope was trying to say is that through the TWI experience many want to be committed to something. That can be dangerous, as we see from her PTA experience.
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socks
Let's see where it lands.
Interesting comments, Hope. Hmmm...maybe. Dunno.
I've always had a ying/yang thing going in my personality. Like, when I was about 11, knee deep in Catholic Parochial education, I decided that being a priest would be cool. I was a fairly serious thinker (then as now I guess) and I figured, "if anyone understands what all this is about, priests do". Kids, huh?
At the same time, same year, I was raisin' serious Cain with my teachers, askin' questions like "why are we so sure there's a heaven"? and "how do we know there's a God"? It got so "bad" that mid year or so the Sistern called my parents in to talk to them about how I was developing "Communist" views...! No kidding, really happened. 11 years old, I'm a communist, right? Pass the vodka!
So here I am, a kid, looking for "answers" and thinking I'll be a priest, and at the same time I was questioning openly the whole religious thing. Later in high school, I met a priest, "Father Donovan", who told me he'd quit high school in Ireland and hitchhiked around Europe for a few years, questioning everything he'd been raised to believe and finally came back to the Catholic faith.
So there he was, and he actually encouraged me to a/question everything and b/definitely wait to even think about being a priest, till I'd had a chance to grow up a little. By then I wasn't interested, (I was surrounded by Catholic girls in pleated skirts!) but it was interesting advice.
So long story longer, I've found I've always been kind of like that. A non-joiner who likes to join things and then try to change them. Doesn't make sense, does it? So now I don't look to join anything. If something comes along I want to be a part of, I do it, but I'm really careful about making committments because I know how I am.
I work hard and heavy on things I believe in but I also know things change - they're supposed to I think. I personally believe that the one thing that doesn't is "love", definable on any number of levels. That's all I'm looking to carry away to the last moment I take a breath. And maybe a hug or two and a nice guitar in hand, if I have my druthers...
I place highest on my list of "things I belong to" my family, our kids, marriage, and friends (which is just about anybody that doesn't try to screw me) and that's about it. "Intangible assets" I guess.
Hmmm...nother long post, not much said. But it's something...let's all sing a song...
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GarthP2000
A group of people having something in common, and having the desire to be 'likeminded' and having 'singleness of heart' about it now being also considered as Yet Another Definition of 'cult'.
Hhmmmmmmm.
"I know there are specific definitions for a cult, but aren't there organizations out there that aren't of a religious nature that can be considered "cult-like"?"
And why is it that seeking out community of like-minded people, or those with 'singleness of heart' must be regarded as being a possible 'cult-like' group in the 1st place?
"I'm not suggesting that EVERY group with a common goal is a cult. What I'm trying to say is do WE, survivors of a cult, MAKE these organizations cult-like because of our TWI involvement?"
Tell me something. How do you know it isn't because we have, by default, accepted the 'anti-cult experts' supposed *authority* as final; upon which standard everything else 'cult'-related is judged. We see something similar to how something was done in TWI, or hear phrases used, or concepts mentioned, and how many of us automatically, in even a knee-jerk fashion, refer back to "Uh ohh, this sounds like a 'cult'", even w/o stopping to analytically think about what is actually going on?
Nothing personal here, Hope. Just some more points to consider.
Cheers,
Garth P.
P.S. I like this board better too!
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Wacky Funster
Great topic, Hope...just one I was thinking about recently.
When I left twi, I started out alone. When the masses weren't there anymore, and I was left to my own devices, it was very obvious that there was something wrong.
A few guys from AA noticed me, and thought I was high on cocaine...but in actuality>
I smoked 2 packs of cigarettes a day, and at least 10 cups of coffee. (necessary witnessing items, ya know )...and was flying...
They suggested I had an addiction problem...I immediately entered ACOA meetings where I found out I had "renewed my mind" into absolute complacency...I had no feelings.
So, I went cold turkey on the smokes...and, it was a few more months before the coffee went...That's when I really cracked...my "cover-ups" were no longer there. It's easy to suck on a smoke, and down coffee...people expect you to be anxious and high...but, it's not natural...not if you are looking for "self-actualization" (a term I picked up and strived for as a psych major in college).
I spent every day at an ACOA meeting...I entered individual therapy and group therapy. Every penny I made went to my "recovery".
I learned many things...and have gone many places...
Fact is...I NEEDED the group and like-minded people to validate my feelings...hundreds of them...I needed their support and shoulders.
The difference with this group of people was...Noone, not one, told me how to think, or what to believe, or tell me I was wrong for any choices I made.
Perhaps I'll re-write that in bold type:
NO ONE, NOT ONE, TOLD ME HOW TO THINK, OR WHAT TO BELIEVE, OR TELL ME I WAS WRONG FOR ANY CHOICES I MADE.
People need people (that's what makes us the luckiest people in the world, doncha know?)...and groups are not bad, they are necessary...and like-minded groups give us a sense of esteem and validation for our choices. I don't think criticizing or judging another group is ever justified...because each group has it's own merits...each is necessary, even if for nothing else, but for a good fight.
However,
When and if a group gets to the point where members are controlled or manipulated in any way....when a person feels betraying because they don't attend the group...
When the group becomes more important than caring for yourself, your family or your environment...
Then, I deem it unhealthy.
Get out.
Get help.
...We've slipped back into codependency...and, unless we wanna live unhappy, unfulfilled lives,..then codependency is NOT the place we want to be.
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washingtonweather
I think this controlling cultic philosophy has been around since cave-man times...even further...In business its called politics, in politics its called self preservation under the guise of being better for others, I have been a part of a lot of groups, PTA, Cub Scouts, Sports programs included, I think its a tendency of human nature in a primordial kind of way. Areas of people or groups that aren't so controlling seem to have at least subliminally acknowledged that humans dont always have to be controlled. Influence goes a lot farther than control
and HEY---IM BACK ----after computer crashes and losts of other busy things
and Hope, yes I miss the cozies, but really do get it from my own family more now.
I finish my profile with all the im junk later, just had a few minutes.
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Hope R.
The other thing I remembered as I was drifting off to sleep last night was something called "K-M".
There was a whole group of people who left TWI in the late 80's and got involved with a MLM group that sold this product called "K-M". It was this nasty brown drink that was supposed to heal all wounds (can you say "snake-oil"?)
Anyway - we got a call from someone who was trying to recruit us into selling, or at the least, buying the product. I remember this woman telling me she had just gotten back from a K-M Seminar and told me "it's just like PFAL!"
It got really popular among the ex-Way folks here. I don't think it lasted all that long - but I remember thinking... "if it's just like PFAL, then why did you leave the ministry?" (of course, I was still in!)
Someone I knew who was a Tupperware rep told me the National Tupperware Jamboree (Jubilee?) was "just like the Rock!"
(Sorta when someone tells you that fried squirrel "tastes just like chicken"... yeah... I'll take the chicken, thank you!)
Garth - I probably shouldn't have used the word "cult" in reference to anything other than TWI - what I meant was a group that had cult-like tendencies... the "look and feel" so to speak. And I never said that being likeminded was another definition of a cult... just that many of us may be drawn to other organizations that were like that.
I've never read the list of what defines a cult because it does change from author to author. I know there are certain characteristics in these groups that are common in every "cult" (use another word... "sect", "faction").
I'm not trying to re-define the word "cult". I guess my question is for those who consider TWI a cult. If you don't - the question is moot.
And perhaps we DO have a knee-jerk reaction when something is similar to TWI - I know I do! But I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with that. We're more aware of the manipulative tactics that cults use, and since we've been there, done that, we know when to disassociate ourselves from that group.
And I almost agree with Wacky when she said... "and groups are not bad, they are necessary...and like-minded groups give us a sense of esteem and validation for our choices."
But shouldn't we be able to validate our choices based on the results of those choices, rather than what everyone else thinks of them? Yes, it's nice when someone says "I like your shoes"... but I know I would buy shoes I like without needing anyone else's approval!
And I know that:
"No Man is an island, entire of itself;
Every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main..."
So living like Ted Kosinski isn't an option either!
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Wacky Funster
Sorry, Hope.
I didn't mean that we NEED to get validation from these folks...but, just that fact that we hang together IS validation...and builds esteem.
You don't have to answer to anyone. I guess I didn't make that clear.
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Linda Z
Hope asked, "... do WE, survivors of a cult, MAKE these organizations cult-like because of our TWI involvement?"
This question assumes that peoples' following the pack, letting an organization dictate to them, allowing its "leaders" to manipulate them, etc., started with twi. I contend that it didn't.
I instead think twi became a "cult" to people to the degree they were vulnerable to handing the reins of their horse over to another person/group.
I still say twi was most "cult-like" to those who were inclined to follow the pack unquestioningly, allow an organization to tell them what to do and let so-called leaders manipulate them.
That's not a slam against anyone. I think most all of us were influenced by the twi organization and its "leaders" to some degree. I just think some of us tended to relinquish control of their lives and decisions more than others.
I still don't like the use of the word "cult" because it's too loaded--loaded with emotion and loaded with so many shades of meaning that it loses meaning and loaded with pseudo-psychological definitions from people who encourage thinking that, to my mind, is just as "cult-like" as any alleged cult members'.
I recently read an article by a prof from a local university, challenging a lot of the "cult" cliches. He suggested the use of a different term: "high-demand religion." That, to me, communicates what twi was (and is) a whole lot better than a word whose meaning is so subjective. To me it says clearly what was wrong with twi, without all the excess pseudo-psych baggage. I like it.
Linda Z
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GarthP2000
"I still don't like the use of the word 'cult' because it's too loaded--loaded with emotion and loaded with so many shades of meaning that it loses meaning and loaded with pseudo-psychological definitions from people who encourage thinking that, to my mind, is just as 'cult-like' as any alleged cult members'."
What you have stated here is putting it most concisely what I have always felt, and many times failed to put into such a clear form! Thank you!!
Talking about "Loading the language"!
Cheers,
Garth P.
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insurgent
Kind of like those "high maintenance" babes you see in the land of the beautiful people?
Very well put, Linda!!
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Hope R.
The main reason I use the word "cult" to describe TWI really has nothing to do with definitions, I do it for me.
For a long time, I couldn't even use the word in reference to TWI. Oh, it was okay to use it about the Moonies, or the People's Temple, or the anyone BUT The Way.
As far as "high demand religion" goes - I think of the Mormons or the JW's. Maybe it's because they have so many followers, I don't know. And TWI HATED the word "religion". And though I think the term could apply perhaps to TWI 1, I think TWI 2 under LCM's leadership became a text-book cult.
And, Linda, I agree with what you said:
"I still say twi was most "cult-like" to those who were inclined to follow the pack unquestioningly, allow an organization to tell them what to do and let so-called leaders manipulate them."
But weren't all of us in that boat at one time or another in our TWI lives? How about those of us who went through the Corps? Or WOW? For me, I think my Corps years were the few years I was a "lemming for Loy". After I graduated, the adulation started to wear off and slowly but surely I began to think for myself again.
But as I said earlier, this thread isn't really about defining the word "cult". I'll call it whatever you want me to. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck...
All I was merely asking is if anyone got involved with another "group-think" organization after leaving TWI because it "felt" like the TWI they were first attracted to. I know I saw it in my area, I was just wondering if anyone else saw that pattern.
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My3Cents
Hope,
You said we were drawn into TWI because we LIKED the whole idea of being "likeminded" with other people? That "singleness of heart" and "undivided loyalty" was like a magnet for many of us?
I think that's true. Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing, I think depends on how intensely the person feels this desire or need and how the group takes advantage of it.
When you & I got involved, the way did not abuse that desire in it's followers as much as it did in later years. As it got better at manipulating and taking advantage of that need or desire then more and more people left. Those that are still there probably have that need to a dysfunctional degree.
In other words, I think there's a continuum not a sharp point at which it becomes good or bad (I won't say cult-like or not because that word has other pieces to it). Maybe there are even two continuums - one for the degree of the need in the person and one for the degree of the group to use or abuse that.
When I was in therapy, my shrink used the term "closed society" to indicate situations where your work, home and social lives are all tied into the same group of people. Cults are like this to an extreme, but to a different degree, and for a different purpose, the military, police and other professions are closed societies as well.
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GarthP2000
Hope, Call it whatever you want to call it. Cult. High-demand religion. Pile of s**t, whatever.
Linda and I aren't telling you what to call TWI, just bringing up some points re: the usage of the word, as well as in relation to your points on our apparent social needs for 'like minded' groups.
Cheers,
Garth P.
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Hopefull
Good thread, Hope.
It is only recently that I have begun to use the word "cult" to describe twi, but in using it I think of the twi that I left, not the twi that I joined up with in 1977. Think of the hordes of people that actually took piffle and later were free to consider that that it was time to move on. There was no "with us or against us" mentality until the early 90's - at least not that I felt at the twig level.
What attracted me to twi was the light in the eyes of the people and speaking in tongues. Having read the gospel many times over (but not venturing into Acts)I was fascinated by the ability to do this and to have some sort of proof that Christianity is the real deal. I hesitated at the very thought of being likeminded and wanted to believe that I was still an independent thinker-- fortunately the people that were around me when I got in were all stubborn and intelligent folks. Later I bucked the system and argued against ignorance many times -- I won't bore you guys with the details but let's just say that I had a hard time buddying it up with the most waybrained folks cuz frankly, they were idiots. IMHO
I love Linda's term, "high-demand religion" and I would put twi in that category pre-pop and even post-pop-- for most twi peons...up until the end of the wow program the roa and the beginning of wap classs and the purge etc. Then it was cult all the way, supreme loyalty, extortion of time and money, threats for non-compliance.
But before that time, I see that the the belief system of our "high demand religion" became ever more narrow as the years went on, filled with a shared language and experiences.
In considering this, I would have to say I became more "cult-like" in conforming myself to the behaviors of the group for acceptance, even if I did not agree with the teachings and practices. I was not afraid for my safety to leave twi, I was afraid of the ensuing isolation that would occur by severing myself to twi's apron strings. Who could I talk to in twi shorthand and who would there be to really understand me? What church could I ever fit into? I wanted what I was used to but I hated what it had become! I hated myself for becoming a person that was forced to play a part in order to stay.
Isn't that cult-like behavior?
I insisted upon getting my bachelors degree before going wow and I refused every opportunity to take the advanced class and would not consider applying to the corps or way college. I had even refused to take pfal right away, I was 6 months *in* before I felt I had to take "the class" to get all my quesitons answered.
It must have seemed selfish of me to have no ambition and insist upon my peon status, but I was afraid go into the "inner" circle of twi and I really felt that God worked best one-on-one and and not in a political/competitive situation. I also did not regularly tithe because I suspected that twi was self-serving as I never heard of "The Way" help anyone financially.
Although I fought against likemindedness, by the time I was no longer welcome my sense of self was so tied into twi that the pain of separation seemed excrutiating at times, like divorce.
In this respect, I do not feel that I joined a cult but I did become a cult member.
Lots of food for thought here.
Edited twice for grammer and spelling
[This message was edited by Hopefull on June 14, 2002 at 13:29.]
[This message was edited by Hopefull on June 14, 2002 at 13:33.]
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Grizzy
Rather than getting in the discussion of cult terms and their accuracy, this thread has had me thinking along some other lines. Perhaps some experts would call it some nicely packaged term or disorder; I think about the term used as addictive personality or faults. But, I see where my self and others that were in TWI could not live a *normal* church or acceptable life according to society.
When I turn 17 and partook of some of the taboo evils of our day and time, it wasn?t long I was completely *sold-out* to those things and running around promoting the same. I had *turned-on* and was going to do all I could to *turn-on* all that I could reach. Never had I been able to participate in any thing I enjoyed with out going almost *whole-hog* with my involvement.
Then there is also the involvement=volunteer and service aspect to consider. From a youth it was ingrained in me to get involved and always help out and do my part for the organization. I did this with the boy scouts, 4H and FFA, when there was something to be done. I was one of the dependable members in the group.
Many of the qualities of a good employee are also found in so many of us. Taking the tasks at hand so seriously and not tossing in the towel until the job was done and done right. We were punctual, reliable and trust worthy. Hard working individuals that could be trust to handle tasks and situations with minimum supervision. Of course that trust and the amount we were watched changed in TWI-2.
Perhaps the best way I have heard it explained is that so many of us were good *cause* orientated and motivated people. We chose what we believed to be a high cause, heck we were lead to believe it was the Highest cause and we were then taken in and taken advantage of. TWI took a lot of great people that were easily motivated and would move with things and then got us out and moving their things and while they prospered and moved their hidden agendas????..
edited just to *do it*
[This message was edited by Grizz Bear on June 14, 2002 at 16:29.]
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Hope R.
I like that term - "closed society". I always used to consider TWI a "sub-culture", I even used it as an example of a sub-culture in my college Sociology class when I went back to school - and I was still IN TWI at the time! (how can there be any "sin" in sincere or "cult" in culture!!)
I think "closed society" is a better description - escpecially for those of us who may have worked for TWI on staff, or even taken our Corps and/or WOW assignments as seriously as we did our secular jobs.
FULL
"I do not feel that I joined a cult but I did become a cult member."
I guess that's the way I feel, too. And I agree with your time-line of when the cult-like part of TWI reared it's ugly head.
But for a long time I LIKED being a part of the group I hooked up with. I liked that "one body", "one heart", "one mind" feeling. Sorta like knowing a secret handshake that only you and a few others get to use!
This year is the first year I haven't been involved in any kind of "group" setting. No TWI or PTA (unless you consider GS a "group"). At first, I wondered "what am I going to do?" As the year progressed, I found that I was happy just being with myself and my family and having a few close friends. I also know I'm still drawn to be part of a group - and that I miss it at times. I was recently asked to be on the PTSA Board at the middle school my youngest will be going to next year. I have to say it's really tempting - and I haven't made a decision yet.
Grizzy... We posted at almost the same time! (Does that make us "like-minded"? )
Volunteering can be taken too seriously in any group. But think of what we all could have done if we'd been volunteers in the Peace Corps instead of the Way Corps! I know I did more for my community in PTA than in TWI!
I think I'm concerned that being part of a group causes a person to lose their sense of self - like it did in those latter years of TWI 2 that Hopefull mentioned. Maybe the longer a person is away from TWI, the more independent minded they become - so there's no "need" for a group, or the group they're a part of doesn't become the main focus of life for that person.
Am I taking all this too seriously? I don't know.
That's why I asked if any of you found yourselves wanting or needing to be part of some kind of group since leaving TWI, and did you take the new group as seriously?
(edited because I wanted to respond to Grizzy - we posted at the same time!)
[This message was edited by Hope R. on June 14, 2002 at 16:28.]
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Hopefull
RICH
You said...I liked that "one body", "one heart", "one mind" feeling.
This makes me think about the ROA's of the late 70's early 80's and being under the big top tent.
Thousands of good-hearted, altruistic folk singing from the blue book (before it changed to the brown book then back again). Voices swelling in glorious harmony to God, VPW swaying in the background, yes the worship was wonderful BUT BUT BUT...the FEELING you mentioned...it was such a high. Grizz you said this well, it is part of this feeling---We chose what we believed to be a high cause, heck we were lead to believe it was the Highest cause. We were young, healthy and had all the answers and were ready to share it with the world.
Other times I would feel like I was on the outside looking in. I either had an "in or out" kind of experience at the ROA- some years I was more "in" the group than others.
Today I feel too worn out and cynical to be in any kind of a group - nowadays I just try to be decent to people, be true to myself, and have a prayer life with a little humility.
Although a spinoff is not for me I did have the need for SOMETHING because I felt sooo isolated and alone after twi.
The answer to that? I am HERE aren't I?
FULL
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Linda Z
I sorta derailed myself, so now that I have a little more time I?ll say what I was going to say when I went off the track. I intended to answer some of your questions, Hope, but I ran out of time.
I honestly didn?t give a hoot about likemindedness and unity and all that when I got into twi. I wasn?t looking for a group to belong to; in fact, I got involved in spite of the fact that twi was a group.
I didn?t jump right into a spin-off group and still haven?t, 13 years after leaving. I had my own reasons for leaving twi, over things I?d seen for myself. I didn?t feel I needed JAL to show me the way out or RD or any former leader from twi who was traveling around the country sounding the alarm (nothing against any of them, but I?d seen enough to know I was outa there). I needed time to sort things out?just God and me?and I took it. I might have been right or wrong about them, but I felt like these guys were gathering a following, and I wanted none of that.
Lest I sound like I think I was so flippin? smart, let me tell you I did some stupid stuff, too, out of a desire to make up for the years I?d lived like a nun and sat through meeting after meeting. But it had nothin? to do with any spin-offs. J
I did hang out for a while with the local excommunicated Corps and others who?d bailed, but they weren?t yet organized into any particular group. I starting seeing signs of SOSDD (same old $hit, different day): followers and an exalted local leader--the former following the latter so closely that if he?d stopped suddenly they?d have quickly found themselves in a place where the sun doesn?t shine. (I think a lot of those people are in Geer?s group today.)
Hope asked, ?Are we just a bunch of people who needed to learn to think for ourselves? Or will we forever be attracted to organizations that encourage a ?cult mentality???
I think the so-called ?cult mentality? is an inside thing, not an outside thing. Yes, if a group makes high demands, whether it?s the PTA, twi or the NRA, and if one has the tendency to get into it gung-ho, then one will exhibit that type of mentality.
If that kind of whole-hog behavior stems from an outside influence, like twi, then how could so many people stay on the fringes of it through the years, yet maintain a limited degree of involvement? There were many like that. They took the classes, they came to fellowships, but they didn?t make it their whole life. By the same token, I?ll bet there were lots of people in the PTA who didn?t get as deeply involved as you did. That?s not a criticism. Being willing to commit to something and give to and work for what you believe is important is a good character trait, as Grizz has said so well. But sometimes our strongest characteristics are those that come around and bite us in the butt.
Examples:
I?m a careful editor. Sometimes I?m so intent doing a good job that I lose sight of the big picture and become nitpicky. Not because I?m generally a nitpicky person, but in my enthusiasm to do a good job, I go past doing my best and head right into overboard!
I?ve seen this in people who are really into fitness. It goes beyond healthy and becomes obsessive.
I could think of a dozen other examples.
As Grizz said, A lot of us had hearts to get involved and help and work hard to get things done. I think that?s why you got so involved in twi and the PTA. There?s got to be a middle ground where a person can be enthusiastic and devoted/committed to something without ending up letting that something dominate life.
?I'm not suggesting that EVERY group with a common goal is a cult. What I'm trying to say is do WE, survivors of a cult, MAKE these organizations cult-like because of our TWI involvement? Do we rely on them the way we relied on TWI in so many ways??
I don?t think so. I think that wherever we go, there we are. I think we made twi a cult to the degree that we relinquished ourselves to it. Was the organization more than happy to accommodate us? Sure.
We can?t change the fact that there are plenty of groups out there that are more than eager to take advantage of pure-hearted, hard-working, devoted types like many of us are. Who could blame them? Where are you going to find such great people who will volunteer and volunteer and give and give? I watched it happen to a relative in the Baptist Church. She?s a doer and a giver and she just did and gave and did and gave until she was burnt out and didn?t know what had hit her.
TWI wasn?t made up of a bunch of soap-opera-watching, bon-bon-popping sluggards who were too lazy to do much more than put new batteries in the TV remote. But I believe we, even being those types of people Grizz described, can learn when to put on the brakes when we?re going too far.
I also believe that as long as we think, ?THEY took my individuality and THEY made me do this or that and THEY stole my years, then WE haven?t yet found the brake pedal. It?s in US. There?s no organization I?ve ever seen that won?t suck you dry if you put yourself in the position for that to happen. Not because all groups are evil, but because when they finally find people who will get off their duffs and care enough to do something, they will gladly receive what those people have to give. They usually won?t say, ?You?re giving too much. Stop. Your work is too good. Please stop.? J
(Sorry this was so long, but I was trying to respond to several of Hope?s posts at once.)
Linda
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suz
We got out in 89, I went to work for Microsoft in 90. I realized after being there for many years that the cult microsoft also attracted the young folks that had, stamina and arrogance to ?do the job, whatever it takes?. I constantly found myself calling Microsoft Corporate??Headquaters??..hmmm
Found myself volunteering and trying to go the extra mile. It just seemed to be my nature, and
It was my nature- but was I like that before my twi days or after, during, ????
But now it was who I was. I remember once someone saying to me (at Microsoft for a project I
was heavily involved with) ?You know, this company is going to be successful with or without
your input?. I was shocked to think they actually COULD succeed without me!
I stayed involved in the ?causes? but relaxed. The more involved in the company and I saw the ?good o?l
Boys Club? in full swing, -its not who you know but who you blow- concept. Microsoft had so much
Diversity, so much to offer, such a future, what a fellowship, what a joy divine?.
I realized it to was cultish. I got less involved with it. I like Grizz?s term, good employee, I honestly
thought that?s what I was.
I soon got involved with my kids school PTO (ha -we weren?t an Association, WE were and Orginazition?) but realized immediately that the schools were preaching to the choir and ?it just doesn?t matter? was an obvious. The politics involved were (and still are)incredible.
I do not believe I was involved to make the organizations cult like, I believe the cult mentality is already
established like someone already stated. Heck pta has been around for years. I also don?t believe I was
searching for that cozy feeling, sitting through minutes of meetings has NOTHING cozy about it. But I
was involved because I believed in something.
The Word Cult doesn?t evoke emotion in me like Linda stated, embarrassment maybe, but not emotion . Some of the other terms were part of the cult experience, but the duck quacks?. I also {became a cult
Member} the question is when & how?
My kids asked me once what a Hippie was, and I said, ?well we did what we wanted, wore blue jeans,
long hair and protested?. They said, ?Your still a hippie mom!!?
I shared with HopeR that before I went into the corpse someone asked me -- Not to change, Not to come out like the other corpse women?and I promised I wouldn?t. So I am not sure how serious I took the whole shebang. Obviously serious enough to stay involved from 72-89 BUT I kept friends (at home) since childhood,
Still did my thing with evil unbelievers, still partied hardy with those -not of the faith-, still did what I wanted. (the hippie in me)
But also I still listened when leadership advised me to stay in WI when my mother was sick, didn?t go home when my mother died, didn?t move home when I should have, didn?t didn?t didn?t?..my ideas and
beliefs were swayed to the closed society. I didn?t join a spin off group, took me years to even go to church! (but alas I have found a church home for my daughter and me.)
Also finances were always a struggle while involved, twi made
sure of that for us peons, the upper echelons were taken care of by us worker bees. But also I must admit,
Corpse week was the loneliest time of my life. ROA was work, traveling to and from was a burden, sending my kids off was a heartbreak, missing my family was difficult, being poorer than dirt was sad.
CULT mentality made sure my believing DID NOT equal receiving?
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Danny
Hope great stuff. But why did u have to put in the duck stuff? 2slickduck
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Dot Matrix
Hope you said:
That's why I asked if any of you found yourselves wanting or needing to be part of some kind of group since leaving TWI, and did you take the new group as seriously?
In answer to this question, I saw almost everyone I knew leave TWI and go into something else. I personally did not want to join or go to ANYTHING where I might have to join, stay, be nice to people -- anything. I departed and wanted to hide.
I felt as though I was trying to outrun a pyroclastic cloud. I left during the big out in the 80?s and we were all kind of scrambling for validation. We left and kept fighting the draw to go back. -- Not that we wanted to return but it was like driving by an accident and having the need to look, Then later maybe search for it in the newspaper to see WHAT HAPPENED?
I disconnected from people, changed my phone number and disappeared. I could not be comfortable in any MEETINGS. I had this feeling it would never end -- like in the corps. Looking at it now, I, who was very sanguine (having a need for people and approval) became withdrawn and tried to recover and figure things out by myself.
But my friends? One became HUGE in Mary Kay because it was just like the ROA and her meetings were just like twig. Another went on to join an immediate post-POP splinter. A male friend did sell that weird brown drink K something, etc.
I think people look for things in common. When I was on a first date and if the guy like the same color I did, I was thrilled we had that in common. It was part of the first date magic . However, after I discovered he was a lazy drunkard, then I did not give a crap what colors he liked.
Did I originally get involved because of like-mindedness? No. I got involved because I desperately needed to see the power of God in my life and I saw it upon taking PFAL. I hated a lot of the likeminded concept i.e., like if you were not smiling people would ask you what was wrong all the time, because we were all suppose to be so da^^n happy. I hated the way we were all suppose to be nice all the time.
I recall a "LEADER" wanted to butt in line corps week when the food was slow for those of us last in line. He went up the line asking each person if he could get in front of them and they all politely say YES! He!l, I am from the North East and we hardly ever let someone butt in line!!! So, I said "no, I have been waiting here for a very long time and I have to be some where just like you do, so you can just get in line."
It did not bode well.
I was never a fan of the likeminded bull.
I was a fan of the legitimate love (like-mindedness?) we all shared for God. I did love a large group of people worshiping God. I did love being around people that loved God and that I could grab almost anyone and say, "do you want to pray?" I LOVED that.
I did like being in a large group that sang praises to our Lord. I enjoyed we all were doing it at the same time (like minded, I guess) But it is not why I got involved. It is perhaps a strong reason why I stayed.
Hope, it factored in I am sure but was not the original reason I got involved.
Dot Matrix
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def59
Even in the way, which is as much a scam as Amway, i tried herbalife, politics (only 3rd parties and fringe groups for me.
I got into sexual addiction and the like.
I go to church now and take it in small bites and steps.
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Lifted Up
Garth, I actually see consistency in Hope's original post. She seems to define a cult in terms of what it was like in her life...whether it be TWI, or PTA. She defines it in terms of HER experience and not someone else's. It leaves open the possibility that either the TWI or the PTA experience may not be a cult in someone else's life.
Anyway, I see a lot fewer problems with that definition than with the one that imposes the definition for someone else's life...that is, "you were in a cult and under mind control and if you believe you are/were not, you are just being waybrained"...or "PTAbrained."
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TheEvan
Whatever the terminology...cult, closed society, etc...The Way was quite in a 'nuther category from mainstream denominations.
The Way separated people from the wider society by using an inside lingo, replete with MANY unique definitions of common words, a unique & separate culture. 3 Cents nailed the problem in his post.
Mainstream denominations avoid using inside-only loaded language. They communicate using accepted meanings for common words. If somebody doesn't want to call this "cult', that's fine with me. Whatever you call it, it is vERY different from mainstream denominations, clubs, groups, etc.A closed society, no matter how beneficient on the surface, is ultimately destructive. God is about relationships and His redemptive work is for the whole world........
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Lifted Up
I gues what Hope was trying to say is that through the TWI experience many want to be committed to something. That can be dangerous, as we see from her PTA experience.
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