So to make a short answer long, this project has allowed me to heal some of what I did not percieve as broken from my twi days and has opened my eyes, heart and mind to the actual words of God that are nestled inside of the Bible. It has helped me in immesurable ways from a research point of view and has I believe made me a more flexable person. I really cant wait to see what tomorrow will bring.
I hope that answers your question.
What an eloquent answer. Thank you.
You know, one of the things that has struck me through the years that I've been recovering (and that's precisely the word for it) is the absolutely insideous nature of TWI dogma: the choking, self-perpetuating roots and tendrils that invaded every corner of my thinking. I'm sure that I can't have been alone in that experience. I grew used to seeing blind obedience and what can only be described as reactionary outrage over what were perceived as attacks on core doctrinal tenets -- questioning was not only discouraged, but in many cases the questioner was subjected to outright mockery or denegration: mind control at its finest.
Ridding oneself of that is no easy prospect. How people do that interests me. I'm intrigued by what inspires people to strike out and investigate things, to question things. I think it must have been a difficult matter, choosing to question this particular topic.
What I mean is that in rereading these posts, and what you write on your web site, I'm struck with the sense that you entered your research expecting one thing (even while you maintained a healthy sense of objectivity regarding your subject matter) and you walked out astonished at having found something contrary to your initial expectations. This is no minor matter, and it's nothing to be brushed aside. So, yes, I applaud your questioning of the subject matter. I'll be interested to read your findings and your conclusions.
I'm intrigued by what inspires people to strike out and investigate things, to question things. I think it must have been a difficult matter, choosing to question this particular topic.
Actually I didnt pick this topic. I was asked if it was a sin or not and I was unable to give an answer that I was comfortable with. When I was in twi the verses seemed clear at the time and I felt comfortable saying that it was a sin. But even then I was not comfortable with the dicotomy caused by the 'love the person hate the sin' doctrine. How pray tell does someone seperate the two? I guess some folks were able to do so and some still do but I just couldnt do it. Anyway, when I was asked if it was a sin 10 years after leaving twi forever and I found that the verses were no longer as clear as they once had been and the person asking me was asking some pointed questions that made me wonder if I really knew what the book was saying.
What I found in the OT was that with a simple lesson in history and culture the verses made perfect sense without a lot of extra study. In the NT things were a bit more complicated especially in Romans where the writer relies heavily upon what 'everyone' knew. But once again with some more history lessons and quite a bit of Greek study specifically of the language and how some words were used in the everyday venacular, a picture soon developed. All in all I found that the NT follows well with the OT in practical doctrines and customs. If there was a specific section of verses that you were interested in I would be happy to tell you what I found if you tell me which one.
As far as ridding yourself of twi doctrine and beliefs sometimes it is easiest to read, as you have, what others have done, such as the things that Raf did on PFAL. Most of the conclusions I agree with and some I do not but that is to be expected. Not that I agree with the teaching either but I dont totally agree with where he (and others) went with it. But I myself have not bothered to rehash PFAL so I have no other conclusion to offer.
The topic of homosexuality or the twi doctrine concerning it was never a big concern to me and I doubt if I ever truly would have researched it had I not been asked and hence got intrigued. I was more bothered by the 'submission' doctrine that twi promoted and perhaps one day I will research that one.
Exie darlin' there are so many things about vp that a person can have a problem with, adultery was just one of many. Feel free to jump in whenever you like.
I've finished your book. It was a fascinating and thought provoking read. I highly recommend it to anyone who wants to know more about the culture it OT times and how it relates to writings in the OT. You did a marvelous job of researching it and presenting your findings in a logical, easy to follow, manner.
I agree with many of your conclusions. A few I'm not yet "on the same page" with you. That is not to say I reject your conclusions, just that I would need to do more study on my own to accept or reject them. Until then, we can enjoy a difference of opinion.
Great job! Can't wait to read your future publications. And remember, I get an autograph of this one at the next BBQ!
I've finished your book. It was a fascinating and thought provoking read. I highly recommend it to anyone who wants to know more about the culture in OT times and how it relates to writings in the OT. You did a marvelous job of researching it and presenting your findings in a logical, easy to follow, manner.
I agree with many of your conclusions. A few I'm not yet "on the same page" with you. That is not to say I reject your conclusions, just that I would need to do more study on my own to accept or reject them. Until then, we can enjoy a difference of opinion.
Great job! Can't wait to read your future publications. And remember, I get an autograph of this one at the next BBQ!
PurpleDays
Of course I will sign it and I very much have looked forward to your critique especially of the things that you did not agree with or you found something missing from them. It sounds like we will have lots to talk about while we tool around Houston trying to find our hotel.
Thank you for the kind words as well they mean a great deal to me.
I don't remember if breaking the sabbath had the same penalty, but if you do,
I'll take your word for it at the moment. After all, it's not like that's where the
discussion is going...
Dear Wordwolf,
I always enjoy your feedback on my posts, they always cause me to look at the matter a little more closely. I don't think that my response is worth a new thread, but Ex: 31: 13-17 and Ex 35: 2 seem conclusive that for the Jews breaking the sabbath was worthy of death.
The poor practices of top twi leadership-as reflected in their poor "private" doctrines-
were the cause of much hurt and harm to people. They were also quite hypocritical-
lcm was a poor Christian when in charge of twi, and a chronic sinner,
but he railed at length against SOME sins and considered OTHER sins to be perfectly fine.
(And that's only one example from twi.)
As a Christian, there's a lot to be said for patience, kindness, prayer, and the like when dealing with
all acquaintances, for all sin...
Unless you're thinking of an entirely different quote, the one you were thinking of was
"I will have mercy and not SACRIFICE",
and was meant to indicate that mercy, kindness, and so on were far MORE important
than all the rituals to be followed-especially if they were followed without mercy and
kindness.
I misquoted the scripture because I was working from memory without checking. You were right about the source of one of the scriptures I was refering to, but the other one that I was thinking of was James 2: 13 which points out that "mercy rejoices against judgment." I think of this as kind of a TTTHHHP response when a person judges another but God chooses to have mercy.
I think that TWI had so much screwed up when it comes to homosexuality that I support Eyesopen's endeavor wholeheartedly. I admittedly won't be able to get her book right now, or give her level of labor its due consideration right now, but I hear what she's saying about needing to rework the whole field after her TWI' days. TWI missed the boat so badly on this one that it should be looked at anew IMO.
Actually I didnt pick this topic. I was asked if it was a sin or not and I was unable to give an answer that I was comfortable with. When I was in twi the verses seemed clear at the time and I felt comfortable saying that it was a sin. But even then I was not comfortable with the dicotomy caused by the 'love the person hate the sin' doctrine. How pray tell does someone seperate the two? I guess some folks were able to do so and some still do but I just couldnt do it. Anyway, when I was asked if it was a sin 10 years after leaving twi forever and I found that the verses were no longer as clear as they once had been and the person asking me was asking some pointed questions that made me wonder if I really knew what the book was saying.
I still love my family even when they act like total screw-ups, don't you? That's how. One can still love a person even if they are doing wrong. Sins, transgressions and iniquities can be repented of and healing obtained through the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.
What I found in the OT was that with a simple lesson in history and culture the verses made perfect sense without a lot of extra study. In the NT things were a bit more complicated especially in Romans where the writer relies heavily upon what 'everyone' knew. But once again with some more history lessons and quite a bit of Greek study specifically of the language and how some words were used in the everyday venacular, a picture soon developed. All in all I found that the NT follows well with the OT in practical doctrines and customs. If there was a specific section of verses that you were interested in I would be happy to tell you what I found if you tell me which one.
Eyes, I'd be interested in your findings concerning the Greek words especially. I take it you are referring to Romans in the Greek? Or are you referring to the LXX for the OT?
The topic of homosexuality or the twi doctrine concerning it was never a big concern to me and I doubt if I ever truly would have researched it had I not been asked and hence got intrigued. I was more bothered by the 'submission' doctrine that twi promoted and perhaps one day I will research that one.
I have already done a lot of research on the "submission" doctrine that is so prevalent not only in TWI but in the mainstream churches. This was spurred on by the feelings elicited whenever I heard D. Moneyhands teach on the subject of marriage.
I still love my family even when they act like total screw-ups, don't you? That's how. One can still love a person even if they are doing wrong. Sins, transgressions and iniquities can be repented of and healing obtained through the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.
I hear you here, I really do and of course I still love my family if they sin or whatever. Perhaps I should expound on this a bit...when I lived in Little Rock after my first WOW year and prior to entering into the Corps I worked as a waitress at a Mexican Restaraunt. Among my co-workers besides an 11th Corps grad who was my Way home coordinator and my WOW brother, there were several bisexual or gay people. Now I was not ignorant and I had worked with gay people in a restaraunt setting before I went out WOW. So to me this was no big deal. I had been taught by my parents that your "judge" each person on an individual basis and never upon their skin color, race, religion or sexual orientation or whatever. There was never a "love the person and hate the sin" mentality or doctrine in my family. So when twi introduced me to it I simply could not swallow it.
To me people are people, if they make a mistake and "sin" ok, dont do it again. If they have a habit of it I dont sweat it I just walk away since they obviously dont want to change. Now this would be just fine when it came to homosexuality except for one thing... I actually got to know quite a few of them and became friends. Some loved God and wanted to hear the word but they were not allowed at twig until they professed their change in lifestyle. Which of course they had major problems in doing. I talked with one of them at length about this and deep in my soul I realized that she couldnt change. It didnt matter if it was a sin, or a learned behavior or if anyone else thought that she could, she just could not be something that she wasnt. This should have set off red flags and sent me running from twi but it didnt. I figured that she must just be an isolated case. My Way home Coordinator told me to just brush the dust off....but that didnt make sense either. Jesus said 'if they dont hear you' then brush them off. But she wanted to hear and was denied.
I just couldnt and still cant wrap my brain around the seperation. My family is full of 'sinners' including myself, as we all are, but if someone wanted the word I would never brush them off despite whatever sin they were in. Since that time I have met and now know many gay people and have found that my friend was not an isolated incident. Now, without twi I just lived my life and accepted people as they are because no matter what I may say they arent going to change anything unless they want to. But I dont 'hate' the sin, I simply choose which 'sins' as it were, that I will allow access to my life by way of a friend. Did that make sense?
Eyes, I'd be interested in your findings concerning the Greek words especially. I take it you are referring to Romans in the Greek? Or are you referring to the LXX for the OT?
Romans was one of the sections of verse that I studied in the Greek. But there are actually 10 sections of verse that are used regularly to prove the sin nature of homosexuality, and all of the ones in the NT I studied in the Greek. I didnt know that there were so many going into this but I figured it out pretty quickly. Anyway, I know that sometimes in the Bible a word is used that it is difficult to ascertain the actual meaning of or it is a word that is only used once in the Bible. I dont like to take anyone's word for it when it comes to definitions of ancient words as those meanings can change quickly in a culture or not at all (which is of course another reason why knowing the history is so important). So what I did with most of them was look them up in the writings of Authors, Poets, Speeches and anything else that has survived the centuries to see how the word was used in everyday language. This was quite helpful in several places. Let me look up the link and get back to you. It is fairly simple to use as you can change it from Greek to English but you have to know kind of what you are looking for before you switch.
I have already done a lot of research on the "submission" doctrine that is so prevalent not only in TWI but in the mainstream churches. This was spurred on by the feelings elicited whenever I heard D. Moneyhands teach on the subject of marriage.
I dont think I ever got the 'pleasure' of such a teaching and if I did it apparently was altogether forgettable. I really hated the way that we had to treat the guys in residence. It always felt like the ladies had to kiss their tails and pretend to not be smart or have an idea anytime a man was around. It probably wasnt easy on them either tho, they had to have all the answers or they would be chastised. I just thought it was sickening. But I would like to see what you have found on the topic.
I gotta go and make dinner, so I'll get back at you before the night is out. (on the West side)
I think that TWI had so much screwed up when it comes to homosexuality that I support Eyesopen's endeavor wholeheartedly. I admittedly won't be able to get her book right now, or give her level of labor its due consideration right now, but I hear what she's saying about needing to rework the whole field after her TWI' days. TWI missed the boat so badly on this one that it should be looked at anew IMO.
Go for it EYESOPEN!!!
(edited for grammar)
Thanks for the support Jeff, I really appreciate your kind words.
Romans was one of the sections of verse that I studied in the Greek. But there are actually 10 sections of verse that are used regularly to prove the sin nature of homosexuality, and all of the ones in the NT I studied in the Greek. I didnt know that there were so many going into this but I figured it out pretty quickly. Anyway, I know that sometimes in the Bible a word is used that it is difficult to ascertain the actual meaning of or it is a word that is only used once in the Bible. I dont like to take anyone's word for it when it comes to definitions of ancient words as those meanings can change quickly in a culture or not at all (which is of course another reason why knowing the history is so important). So what I did with most of them was look them up in the writings of Authors, Poets, Speeches and anything else that has survived the centuries to see how the word was used in everyday language.
Eyes, I think the "sharper than any 2 edged sword" bible is about to go out the "back door"! If you can re-work the bible to promote homosexual behaviour as being OK with God's plan for man.... I think you've got a best seller on your hands!
Hopefully your agent isn't a boring, straight, conservative Christian!
Eyes, I think the "sharper than any 2 edged sword" bible is about to go out the "back door"! If you can re-work the bible to promote homosexual behaviour as being OK with God's plan for man.... I think you've got a best seller on your hands!
Hopefully your agent isn't a boring, straight, conservative Christian!
Hmmm... have you ever stopped to think that maybe someone else reworked the Bible to say that homosexuality was a sin? And perhaps after 1700 years of constantly being told that 'this is the way it is' and having the freedom to persecute people for their sexual orientation maybe we have just been buying and selling another bigots point of view for so long that we really believe it? I asked a question of myself and then of God and the Bible. What I found may not be what 'mainstream Chrisitanity' teaches but that doesnt preclude it from being right. My conclusions may be wrong...only time will tell, but at least I didnt just swallow the hook again because it tasted good to me at the time.
This may have been plagerized (well it was plagerized) but the words actually meant something to me:
...Who teach because they love the teacher's task
And find their richest prize
In eyes that open, and in minds that ask.
I have asked questions since I was a child, in fact it was in asking questions that got me kicked out of twi. I will never stop questioning the world around me and I will never stop questioning any doctrines that are promoted as truth and/or Godly when they encourage hate and violence. And frankly I dont give a rats tail if I sell one more book if it were only about money...I have said it over and over again but some just never seem to believe me, I am not doing this to sell books and make money, I never even intended to write one, but since it developed that way I made it available for those that were interested. If you're not interested then please feel free to stop posting on this thread. I dont get it! Why is there so much talk about me making money or selling books? Some of you act as if my mind is on money. It that's what you think, mister you got two more thoughts coming and their both wrong!
Now that that bit of nastyness is out of the way...no offense Bumpy, normally I find your posts to be a welcome relief from some tense moment, but please dont do what you just did again to me.
So....Bride, I am sorry for not posting last night but for some reason the browser would not even come to GS. I tried several times but finally gave up. The place that I get information on the ancient Greek language so I can see a fuller meaning of a word is called Perseus tuft. Here are some links that I have in my bibliography. They are only on one word, Porneo or pornos. It was used in I Cor 5:1 and is most commonly translated as fornication. I had no real reason to look it up except I wanted to get the full context of I Cor 6:9 and it (fornication) seemed like the topic. Anyway here are the links:
“Pornos. Demosthenes, Speeches 22, section 73.” Kata Androtiônos Paranomôn, Editions and Translations: S. H. Butcher and W. Rennie, based on Demosthenis. Orationes. Oxonii. E Typographeo Clarendoniano. 1907 and 1921. Perseus Tufts Online Classics Collection, with assistance by The Annenberg CPB/Project 2006.
“Pornos. Aeschines, Speeches #1, section 130.” Kata Timarchou, Translations: Charles Darwin Adams, Ph.D. Cambridge, MA, based on Aeschines. Aeschines, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1919. Perseus Tufts Online Classics Collection, with assistance by The Annenberg CPB/Project 2006.
<Aeschines, Speeches speech 1, section 130>
“Pornos. Aeschines, Speeches #1, section 157.” Kata Timarchou, Translations Charles Darwin Adams, Ph.D. Cambridge, MA, based on Aeschines. Aeschines, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1919. Perseus Tufts Online Classics Collection, with assistance by The Annenberg CPB/Project 2006.
<Aeschines, Speeches speech 1, section 157>
“Pornoi. Demosthenes, Letters 4.10.” Peri tês Thêramenous blasphêmias. Editions and Translations: Greek, W. Rennie | English, Norman W. DeWitt, Norman J. DeWitt 1931. Based on the book: Demosthenes. Orationes. ed. W. Rennie. Oxford: Clarendon Press. 1931. Perseus Tufts Online Classics Collection, with assistance by The Annenberg CPB/Project 2006.
<Demosthenes, Letters (ed. W. Rennie) card 4.10>
I looked up a good many words using this particular sight. One of the most illuminating words that I looked at here was the word Malakos which is translated 'effeminate' in I Cor 6:9 and is used to say that this verse is talking about 'homos' (to quote LCM) If you look this word up in the Bible and in Perseus you will find that nowhere does it allude to homosexuals or the act in any way. But it does talk about 'soft' men who wear 'soft' clothing, and a referrence is made to the slaves in Herod's household who have become weak and soft. It is also linked with disease but there is more to support that it is referring to a group of people of type of people being a disease in a community than anything else.
Anyway it is a great site for research that is just a bit above and beyond.
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cheranne
just leave all these people alone! Who are you and what gives you the right to judge.
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cake
What an eloquent answer. Thank you.
You know, one of the things that has struck me through the years that I've been recovering (and that's precisely the word for it) is the absolutely insideous nature of TWI dogma: the choking, self-perpetuating roots and tendrils that invaded every corner of my thinking. I'm sure that I can't have been alone in that experience. I grew used to seeing blind obedience and what can only be described as reactionary outrage over what were perceived as attacks on core doctrinal tenets -- questioning was not only discouraged, but in many cases the questioner was subjected to outright mockery or denegration: mind control at its finest.
Ridding oneself of that is no easy prospect. How people do that interests me. I'm intrigued by what inspires people to strike out and investigate things, to question things. I think it must have been a difficult matter, choosing to question this particular topic.
What I mean is that in rereading these posts, and what you write on your web site, I'm struck with the sense that you entered your research expecting one thing (even while you maintained a healthy sense of objectivity regarding your subject matter) and you walked out astonished at having found something contrary to your initial expectations. This is no minor matter, and it's nothing to be brushed aside. So, yes, I applaud your questioning of the subject matter. I'll be interested to read your findings and your conclusions.
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excathedra
since i'm a totally emotional person, i don't think i can say much here
but i do love reading logical people
thank you
oh ps. my problem with veedickheadpee has never been "adultery"
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Eyesopen
Actually I didnt pick this topic. I was asked if it was a sin or not and I was unable to give an answer that I was comfortable with. When I was in twi the verses seemed clear at the time and I felt comfortable saying that it was a sin. But even then I was not comfortable with the dicotomy caused by the 'love the person hate the sin' doctrine. How pray tell does someone seperate the two? I guess some folks were able to do so and some still do but I just couldnt do it. Anyway, when I was asked if it was a sin 10 years after leaving twi forever and I found that the verses were no longer as clear as they once had been and the person asking me was asking some pointed questions that made me wonder if I really knew what the book was saying.
What I found in the OT was that with a simple lesson in history and culture the verses made perfect sense without a lot of extra study. In the NT things were a bit more complicated especially in Romans where the writer relies heavily upon what 'everyone' knew. But once again with some more history lessons and quite a bit of Greek study specifically of the language and how some words were used in the everyday venacular, a picture soon developed. All in all I found that the NT follows well with the OT in practical doctrines and customs. If there was a specific section of verses that you were interested in I would be happy to tell you what I found if you tell me which one.
As far as ridding yourself of twi doctrine and beliefs sometimes it is easiest to read, as you have, what others have done, such as the things that Raf did on PFAL. Most of the conclusions I agree with and some I do not but that is to be expected. Not that I agree with the teaching either but I dont totally agree with where he (and others) went with it. But I myself have not bothered to rehash PFAL so I have no other conclusion to offer.
The topic of homosexuality or the twi doctrine concerning it was never a big concern to me and I doubt if I ever truly would have researched it had I not been asked and hence got intrigued. I was more bothered by the 'submission' doctrine that twi promoted and perhaps one day I will research that one.
Exie darlin' there are so many things about vp that a person can have a problem with, adultery was just one of many. Feel free to jump in whenever you like.
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PurpleDays
Eyes,
I've finished your book. It was a fascinating and thought provoking read. I highly recommend it to anyone who wants to know more about the culture it OT times and how it relates to writings in the OT. You did a marvelous job of researching it and presenting your findings in a logical, easy to follow, manner.
I agree with many of your conclusions. A few I'm not yet "on the same page" with you. That is not to say I reject your conclusions, just that I would need to do more study on my own to accept or reject them. Until then, we can enjoy a difference of opinion.
Great job! Can't wait to read your future publications. And remember, I get an autograph of this one at the next BBQ!
PurpleDays
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Eyesopen
Of course I will sign it and I very much have looked forward to your critique especially of the things that you did not agree with or you found something missing from them. It sounds like we will have lots to talk about while we tool around Houston trying to find our hotel.
Thank you for the kind words as well they mean a great deal to me.
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JeffSjo
Dearest Excathedra,
Yeah I know, I remember the little that you shared and I hope you know that you're in my heart and in my prayers.
Love,
JEFF
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Bumpy
http://www.nobodyasked.com/wp-content/uplo...ug-72-thumb.jpg
Maybe you can go with these "guys" on a book signing tour??
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JeffSjo
I misquoted the scripture because I was working from memory without checking. You were right about the source of one of the scriptures I was refering to, but the other one that I was thinking of was James 2: 13 which points out that "mercy rejoices against judgment." I think of this as kind of a TTTHHHP response when a person judges another but God chooses to have mercy.
I think that TWI had so much screwed up when it comes to homosexuality that I support Eyesopen's endeavor wholeheartedly. I admittedly won't be able to get her book right now, or give her level of labor its due consideration right now, but I hear what she's saying about needing to rework the whole field after her TWI' days. TWI missed the boat so badly on this one that it should be looked at anew IMO.
Go for it EYESOPEN!!!
(edited for grammar)
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brideofjc
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Eyesopen
To me people are people, if they make a mistake and "sin" ok, dont do it again. If they have a habit of it I dont sweat it I just walk away since they obviously dont want to change. Now this would be just fine when it came to homosexuality except for one thing... I actually got to know quite a few of them and became friends. Some loved God and wanted to hear the word but they were not allowed at twig until they professed their change in lifestyle. Which of course they had major problems in doing. I talked with one of them at length about this and deep in my soul I realized that she couldnt change. It didnt matter if it was a sin, or a learned behavior or if anyone else thought that she could, she just could not be something that she wasnt. This should have set off red flags and sent me running from twi but it didnt. I figured that she must just be an isolated case. My Way home Coordinator told me to just brush the dust off....but that didnt make sense either. Jesus said 'if they dont hear you' then brush them off. But she wanted to hear and was denied.
I just couldnt and still cant wrap my brain around the seperation. My family is full of 'sinners' including myself, as we all are, but if someone wanted the word I would never brush them off despite whatever sin they were in. Since that time I have met and now know many gay people and have found that my friend was not an isolated incident. Now, without twi I just lived my life and accepted people as they are because no matter what I may say they arent going to change anything unless they want to. But I dont 'hate' the sin, I simply choose which 'sins' as it were, that I will allow access to my life by way of a friend. Did that make sense?
Romans was one of the sections of verse that I studied in the Greek. But there are actually 10 sections of verse that are used regularly to prove the sin nature of homosexuality, and all of the ones in the NT I studied in the Greek. I didnt know that there were so many going into this but I figured it out pretty quickly. Anyway, I know that sometimes in the Bible a word is used that it is difficult to ascertain the actual meaning of or it is a word that is only used once in the Bible. I dont like to take anyone's word for it when it comes to definitions of ancient words as those meanings can change quickly in a culture or not at all (which is of course another reason why knowing the history is so important). So what I did with most of them was look them up in the writings of Authors, Poets, Speeches and anything else that has survived the centuries to see how the word was used in everyday language. This was quite helpful in several places. Let me look up the link and get back to you. It is fairly simple to use as you can change it from Greek to English but you have to know kind of what you are looking for before you switch.
I dont think I ever got the 'pleasure' of such a teaching and if I did it apparently was altogether forgettable. I really hated the way that we had to treat the guys in residence. It always felt like the ladies had to kiss their tails and pretend to not be smart or have an idea anytime a man was around. It probably wasnt easy on them either tho, they had to have all the answers or they would be chastised. I just thought it was sickening. But I would like to see what you have found on the topic.I gotta go and make dinner, so I'll get back at you before the night is out. (on the West side)
Thanks for the support Jeff, I really appreciate your kind words.
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Bumpy
Eyes, I think the "sharper than any 2 edged sword" bible is about to go out the "back door"! If you can re-work the bible to promote homosexual behaviour as being OK with God's plan for man.... I think you've got a best seller on your hands!
Hopefully your agent isn't a boring, straight, conservative Christian!
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Eyesopen
Hmmm... have you ever stopped to think that maybe someone else reworked the Bible to say that homosexuality was a sin? And perhaps after 1700 years of constantly being told that 'this is the way it is' and having the freedom to persecute people for their sexual orientation maybe we have just been buying and selling another bigots point of view for so long that we really believe it? I asked a question of myself and then of God and the Bible. What I found may not be what 'mainstream Chrisitanity' teaches but that doesnt preclude it from being right. My conclusions may be wrong...only time will tell, but at least I didnt just swallow the hook again because it tasted good to me at the time.
This may have been plagerized (well it was plagerized) but the words actually meant something to me:
...Who teach because they love the teacher's task
And find their richest prize
In eyes that open, and in minds that ask.
I have asked questions since I was a child, in fact it was in asking questions that got me kicked out of twi. I will never stop questioning the world around me and I will never stop questioning any doctrines that are promoted as truth and/or Godly when they encourage hate and violence. And frankly I dont give a rats tail if I sell one more book if it were only about money...I have said it over and over again but some just never seem to believe me, I am not doing this to sell books and make money, I never even intended to write one, but since it developed that way I made it available for those that were interested. If you're not interested then please feel free to stop posting on this thread. I dont get it! Why is there so much talk about me making money or selling books? Some of you act as if my mind is on money. It that's what you think, mister you got two more thoughts coming and their both wrong!
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Eyesopen
Now that that bit of nastyness is out of the way...no offense Bumpy, normally I find your posts to be a welcome relief from some tense moment, but please dont do what you just did again to me.
So....Bride, I am sorry for not posting last night but for some reason the browser would not even come to GS. I tried several times but finally gave up. The place that I get information on the ancient Greek language so I can see a fuller meaning of a word is called Perseus tuft. Here are some links that I have in my bibliography. They are only on one word, Porneo or pornos. It was used in I Cor 5:1 and is most commonly translated as fornication. I had no real reason to look it up except I wanted to get the full context of I Cor 6:9 and it (fornication) seemed like the topic. Anyway here are the links:
“Pornos. Demosthenes, Speeches 22, section 73.” Kata Androtiônos Paranomôn, Editions and Translations: S. H. Butcher and W. Rennie, based on Demosthenis. Orationes. Oxonii. E Typographeo Clarendoniano. 1907 and 1921. Perseus Tufts Online Classics Collection, with assistance by The Annenberg CPB/Project 2006.
<Demosthenes, Speeches 21-30 speech 22, section 73>
“Pornos. Aeschines, Speeches #1, section 130.” Kata Timarchou, Translations: Charles Darwin Adams, Ph.D. Cambridge, MA, based on Aeschines. Aeschines, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1919. Perseus Tufts Online Classics Collection, with assistance by The Annenberg CPB/Project 2006.
<Aeschines, Speeches speech 1, section 130>
“Pornos. Aeschines, Speeches #1, section 157.” Kata Timarchou, Translations Charles Darwin Adams, Ph.D. Cambridge, MA, based on Aeschines. Aeschines, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1919. Perseus Tufts Online Classics Collection, with assistance by The Annenberg CPB/Project 2006.
<Aeschines, Speeches speech 1, section 157>
“Pornoi. Demosthenes, Letters 4.10.” Peri tês Thêramenous blasphêmias. Editions and Translations: Greek, W. Rennie | English, Norman W. DeWitt, Norman J. DeWitt 1931. Based on the book: Demosthenes. Orationes. ed. W. Rennie. Oxford: Clarendon Press. 1931. Perseus Tufts Online Classics Collection, with assistance by The Annenberg CPB/Project 2006.
<Demosthenes, Letters (ed. W. Rennie) card 4.10>
I looked up a good many words using this particular sight. One of the most illuminating words that I looked at here was the word Malakos which is translated 'effeminate' in I Cor 6:9 and is used to say that this verse is talking about 'homos' (to quote LCM) If you look this word up in the Bible and in Perseus you will find that nowhere does it allude to homosexuals or the act in any way. But it does talk about 'soft' men who wear 'soft' clothing, and a referrence is made to the slaves in Herod's household who have become weak and soft. It is also linked with disease but there is more to support that it is referring to a group of people of type of people being a disease in a community than anything else.
Anyway it is a great site for research that is just a bit above and beyond.
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jen-o
eyes,
what is the link to the site you are referring to?
peace,
jen-o
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Eyesopen
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/
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