what universities or seminaries have they attended?
It's refreshing to see yet one more person ask that question..
if only these people left Christ out of their job creation and actually went out and became skilled workman/woman in the fields they love, perhaps this nonsense wouldn't be going on today, leaving people still, immature, and blind to what their actions say about them, and anyone elses. they could minister their brand of word on their time, since they haven't the know how other pastors do in creating churches, because they will not educate themselves ... they are like the rebels without a cause or with a deluded one, if they continue to buck the system and overload their followers (do they still call them with this reference connoting poor and unrooted to many of us?)
I saw one of them, a former staffer in twi, after being out for several years, abandon a REAL God given gift and profession, to go back on staff in an offshoot.
gone.. from making a difference in the "real world".. back to "almost way world"..
kinda gave me a sick feeling deep down inside.
Then there's the new "survivor, vey corpse II" series.
When I asked them what their qualifications I basically had the door slam in my face.
I'd be suprised if any of them have even have Red Cross first aid training..
I can almost hear their mental response to inquiry.. I would have asked it a long time ago as well, I'm sure.
"what are YOU doing to move *da word*?"
my response: "what the h*ll are YOU doing?"
If someone thinks that to assemble a bunch of naive, fawning followers to chop their firewood, butcher their chickens, clean up their farm.. undergo an almost full year of hazing.. in exchange of the "privilge" to hear ole vic's offpring spout vic's material.. or god forbid, sit for hours and listen to bootleg tapes.. to be "moving da word"..
they are.. for a lack of better description, in my opinion, NUTS.
John Schoenheit did attend a theological seminary in Charlotte(Garrett?), NC to receive a Master's degree(whether in Arts, Theology, or Divinity not sure).
I have no affiliation with CES so I am not defending any organization.
But whether it be John L or John S who I believe has did their best to study and learn and teach what they believed to be the truth.
Along the course of their lives do they make some bad choices? Of course they do. And some of them may have been for selfish reasons but who is to judge.
Not me! Just like a lot of folks on this site who have either been dooped or just plain made a very bad decision, I bet most of them were because they were trying to do something as opposed to just sitting back and doing nothing while watching everyone else make mistakes.
If you see someone with scars and bruises it is probably because they have been out front tryin to clear the path while the rest of us have been following.
And the guy out front is usually the one who steps on the land mine or booby trap. I am thankful for the person who is willing to take the lead because some of us are just not cut out for it.
This don't just apply to folks at CES or the so called offshoots but also to those who make GSC possible.
I just read one of John S's latest articles concerning his struggles (my words) with being over critical and trying to learn to love regardless of a persons doctrine.
As far as difficulties go, Anyone ever tried to make a band work? That's very difficult and that pales as compared to running any kind of ministry.
Offshoots? Lutheran, Catholic, Methodist, Pentecostal,(all flavors). We all have something in common yet we all have our differences too.
The Apostle Paul gave up a pretty lucrative job to move da word also.
I never heard of CES before, been gone from the Way since 1984, but heres my view....
I wouldnt join an "Off shoot" of the Way because I feel many essentials of the Christian faith were wrongly taught. I know many of you would disagree, but I just don't feel comfortable having to argue with people about...Believing = recieving, Jesus Christ is not God, you MUST Tithe, You must not attend any church you want to, etc.....
And most importantly I really uncomfortable with the peer pressure and mind control used on me, always wanting more more more commitment....
I live in Orlando, Florida...home of "Benny Hinn" so I am observing his wacky "Faith Theology" with all his weird doctrines and fake claims of healing and raising people from the dead....
another words, Im really turned off by "organized religion"
I tried one Pentecostal church but evry time I went there they were pressuring me for more and more money to pay the mortgage on their HUGE cathedral, they called it "moving the mountain" I always thought....man Id rather just fellowship and hear the Word taught than to struggle every minute to help "move their mountain"
Also...many times Id show up and they would be televising the service, and it was more a TV studio atmosphere than a loving, felowshipping church
And about the Catholic church.....in Orlando its kinda huge and impersonal. When my Mom died last year they said that to have a funeral service would cost $1,800 !! And thats on top of all the other services! I went up to Massachusetts where Mom wanted to be buried and the little church there did the service for $110 Some of the folks in small Protestant churches tell me their churches would do a funeral service for free....
So...I just feel that with all the scandals.........Priests molesting kids, Jimmy Swagart's adultery, Benny Hinn getting caught in a lie about raising someone from the dead...Benny Hinn False Prophet
So its good to look closely before leaping, there are a lot bad organized churches out there.........
I feel a lot the same way. Religion, from my perspective has a way of screwing things up.
If someone was wanting to undermine God what do you think would be the best way to do it.
Let the suckers get as religious as they want and make sure they have a kazillion doctrines to fight over.
Most honest folks see that and come to the conclusion they want no part of it. Right on!
Many of us have come full circle in that we started out with a basic love for God and after a trip around the religious world we have come back to the love of God.
It's taken me at least 30 years and I am still working on it.
Some are caught up in being a bible scholar while losing sight of the real message.
John Schoenheit of CES as was mentioned before just wrote a article on just that.
Jesus loves us regardless and to me that is the message. By all means study the word to know God's will but if we don't learn to love one another we are pi**ing in the wind.
Sounds too simple but just look around and see how many of us are missing it.
I can almost hear their mental response to inquiry.. I would have asked it a long time ago as well, I'm sure.
"what are YOU doing to move *da word*?"
my response: "what the h*ll are YOU doing?"
If someone thinks that to assemble a bunch of naive, fawning followers to chop their firewood, butcher their chickens, clean up their farm.. undergo an almost full year of hazing.. in exchange of the "privilge" to hear ole vic's offpring spout vic's material.. or god forbid, sit for hours and listen to bootleg tapes.. to be "moving da word"..
they are.. for a lack of better description, in my opinion, NUTS.
Hi Ham,
I am not doing anything to move God's Word. God is doing it as I am faithful to His Word. For example, witnessing, did any of you hunt down people out on "witnessing excersions"? From jumpstreet I did not like that idea. I didn't gripe or moan or whine, I just did it the way i believe God was leading me. If God came up in a conversation great, if not, I did not push it. God opens the door to a human heart. Just God, when it's right, in His time, if I am there to speak, yippeeee, if not, someone else may.
I am going to stick my neck out here.....even if the ministry hadn't of fallen apart, would we be honest enough with God and ourselves to continue to search the scriptures or would have the ministry turned into a denomination anyway due to apathy and thinking PFAL was a beall end all to the scriptures. It was a fair start, let's face 4 crucified still stands. He did get that right. But it needed a lot of work and it is a lifelong endeavor. And none of us will ever know it all anyway, no matter how bad we may want to.
Your paragraph that starts...If someone" are you reffering to CES, or CFF? Or bss, ...., or what. I will never be involved with any organized "group" again ever. Too much bs.
I am very happy with what I have. I found a real honest to goodness gift ministry and his longsuit is teaching. I know, we didn't really met that many true gift ministries in the WAY, they got a piece of paper and beat every body over the head with it. This man isn't like that. Four years, via emails, phone calls, and listening have changed me. I have grown more under the care of this one man over a thousand miles away from me, than I did the whole time with the Way. 6 years. I still hungered for God after 8 years away from everything and everybody Wayish. I still wanted God. Guess what I did, I googled Dr. Wierwille. Which led me here, which frankly back in 2004 freaked me out to be around any of you, but I did find a link. Michael Cortrights' family page. I clicked and found a map, with oodles and oodles of people. I clicked on a state and went down the rows and this man's name stuck out to me, I never met this man during my time with the ministry. I emailed and he emailed back. Then something bad happened to me (I lived) and he responded with love, maturity and dust yourself off and move on, and I asked him a question. Four years later I am not the same woman I was. I am better. I know how to work the Word. He had the nerve to call me names, A Berean. And faithful. Two words I never would have associated with me. And I got caught doing something naughty. I was ....ed at a friend, I cussed him out, and his friend knew I knew this minister and showed him what I wrote. (think back to what would have happened had it been a Way minister.......got it in your head. here's what happened. He wrote, I has heard something distressing, and I need to ask you if it's true, don't .... me, just tell me. Did you do such and such? Well, That was a crossroads. Was I going to rationalize or just take my lumps like a lady. So I responded with I did it. And you know what happened after that? He taught me God's Word, never brought it up again, and never held it against me. Not to this day. Considering how bad I got yelled at my pat lynn, john lynn, Pat Powell, Mary Powell, and other pompous fools, I was scared to cop to that to him, I was scared he would be like all the other people I trusted to teach me. Praise God, he isn't like that. Again, I am very happy with what I have.
Just so you know. He sends out teaching tapes every other week, no charge. Doesn't believe that one should charge for God's Word. He send out a newsletter and you can email anytime with any question and he can help. I have the utmost respect for him. Just send me a message and I will turn you on to him. He's cool.
Thanks for listening, I have to go wipe my eyes, that one made me cry......
I have a confession to make. I have been attending school for the past nearly 3 years and late last year I had a major epiphany. I am dealing with a major lack of faith in a risen lord right now. First of all, I went to Egypt last fall and spent most of my time there with Islamic guides. That was a real lesson in just learning how to be. I plan to go to the Middle East many more times, but only in a sociological context like I did the last time. It's very enlightening. Then I took a couple of humanities classes that covered early religions. I walked away with the gut feeling that Christianity isn't all that remarkable from a religious standpoint. Nothing has happened since then to change my mind. The more I try to reinsert myself into Christianity through reasoning and education, the harder it is to accept. Therefore, I can honestly say I'm doing nothing to move the "word" and find myself becoming more and more repelled by those who think they have all the right answers.
Points:
1. We have a Bible based on manuscripts with no originals to use for comparison's sake. If you don't have a problem with that, then how can anyone possibly have a problem with the Book of Mormon, or the Qur'an, or any other "text" that is supposedly divinely inspired that has no original manuscripts?
2. We have a savior that is risen, and a few more people who apparently were raised (not sure to new bodies and even then it's glossed over), yet no one outside the Christian community seems to know about it - even Josephus. You would think someone besides early Christian writers would find it worthy of mention. The only place you can find the evidence is in the Bible (see point #1).
3. I think it's kind of strange that he's ascended into heaven and is letting us have at it. Why? There is absolutely no reason to have this time gap where he's in heaven and we're down here trying to sort it all out with the help of the holy spirit, who could be an essence or a "person," depending on your point of view. But it's remarkably convenient.
4. I am very troubled by Paul's subsequent treatment and handling of women, particularly since it is very much at odds with how Jesus viewed and treated women. Even then, I found myself telling my husband that the submission of women to men seems just a little too convenient for my taste (yeah, I'm a troublemaker).
The more I look into it, the less convinced I am that this religion is significantly different than any other religion, and I find myself more and more put off by the claims of superiority and the notion that it is the final answer, when so much of it is still up in the air.
Christians boast about how rapidly Christianity grew. It's growth is nothing compared to the growth of early Islam. Ironically, Islam's early growth was largely due to the amassing and assimilation of knowledge at a time when Christianity was putting a real damper on the notion of having an educated and enlightened population. Moreover, Islam is firmly entrenched in an area where Christianity began. Am I the only one that finds that remarkable?
What I find is that groups such as TWI and STF and even most long-time organized groups rely on that sense of community, tradition, with a measure of guilt thrown in to hold people. The claim of having the truth is just that - a claim that could be based on a false premise.
Personally, I've been putting a bit of time into learning about the Law of Attraction (you are and attract what you think, or as a man thinks, so is he) and I'm not all that convinced that it's a load of rubbish. Although I do think the way TWI taught it was a load of rubbish.
I have a confession to make. I have been attending school for the past nearly 3 years and late last year I had a major epiphany. I am dealing with a major lack of faith in a risen lord right now. First of all, I went to Egypt last fall and spent most of my time there with Islamic guides. That was a real lesson in just learning how to be. I plan to go to the Middle East many more times, but only in a sociological context like I did the last time. It's very enlightening. Then I took a couple of humanities classes that covered early religions. I walked away with the gut feeling that Christianity isn't all that remarkable from a religious standpoint. Nothing has happened since then to change my mind. The more I try to reinsert myself into Christianity through reasoning and education, the harder it is to accept. Therefore, I can honestly say I'm doing nothing to move the "word" and find myself becoming more and more repelled by those who think they have all the right answers.
Points:
1. We have a Bible based on manuscripts with no originals to use for comparison's sake. If you don't have a problem with that, then how can anyone possibly have a problem with the Book of Mormon, or the Qur'an, or any other "text" that is supposedly divinely inspired that has no original manuscripts?
2. We have a savior that is risen, and a few more people who apparently were raised (not sure to new bodies and even then it's glossed over), yet no one outside the Christian community seems to know about it - even Josephus. You would think someone besides early Christian writers would find it worthy of mention. The only place you can find the evidence is in the Bible (see point #1).
3. I think it's kind of strange that he's ascended into heaven and is letting us have at it. Why? There is absolutely no reason to have this time gap where he's in heaven and we're down here trying to sort it all out with the help of the holy spirit, who could be an essence or a "person," depending on your point of view. But it's remarkably convenient.
4. I am very troubled by Paul's subsequent treatment and handling of women, particularly since it is very much at odds with how Jesus viewed and treated women. Even then, I found myself telling my husband that the submission of women to men seems just a little too convenient for my taste (yeah, I'm a troublemaker).
The more I look into it, the less convinced I am that this religion is significantly different than any other religion, and I find myself more and more put off by the claims of superiority and the notion that it is the final answer, when so much of it is still up in the air.
Christians boast about how rapidly Christianity grew. It's growth is nothing compared to the growth of early Islam. Ironically, Islam's early growth was largely due to the amassing and assimilation of knowledge at a time when Christianity was putting a real damper on the notion of having an educated and enlightened population. Moreover, Islam is firmly entrenched in an area where Christianity began. Am I the only one that finds that remarkable?
What I find is that groups such as TWI and STF and even most long-time organized groups rely on that sense of community, tradition, with a measure of guilt thrown in to hold people. The claim of having the truth is just that - a claim that could be based on a false premise.
Personally, I've been putting a bit of time into learning about the Law of Attraction (you are and attract what you think, or as a man thinks, so is he) and I'm not all that convinced that it's a load of rubbish. Although I do think the way TWI taught it was a load of rubbish.
It sounds like youve had some wonderful world travels and may God Bless you as you travel!
If you wanna see some of the info for Jesus and Christianity one of the best I know of is Lee Stroebel, who teahces about the evidence for the Bible and for Jesus Christs resurrection. When I feel any doubt I like to review the info that this writer provides.
It was a fair start, let's face 4 crucified still stands. He did get that right.
Ummm...actually...no, he was wrong about that too...
I read these various posts and I feel like gagging...I smell "waybrain"...sorry...but I left twi concepts behind a long time ago..."move the word"???...please...where's my barf bucket.
Well.. just suppose he DID get *that* right.. what REAL difference would it make?
Honestly. It's only vic's theology that requires the right "dividing" of a FEW biblical "hairs"..
How he could demand such accuracy on such an inane or trivial point.. and totally miss the boat on adultery, drugging and such.. which is PLAINLY in violation of what anyone with half a brain or conscience would consider the "will of God"..
Ham...I'm starting to wonder...it seems like some folks cling to the idea that VP, in spite of his hedonistic lifestyle, was still teaching "some pretty good stuff"...sorry...I totally disagree...Wierwille led people away from Christ (the absent one) towards himself...his doctrines were destructive to people's lives....he was an egotistical drunk...I dismiss, out of hand, anything he ever said...because HE said it...he was a louse and an abuser.
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Ham
I saw one of them, a former staffer in twi, after being out for several years, abandon a REAL God given gift and profession, to go back on staff in an offshoot.
gone.. from making a difference in the "real world".. back to "almost way world"..
kinda gave me a sick feeling deep down inside.
Then there's the new "survivor, vey corpse II" series.
When I asked them what their qualifications I basically had the door slam in my face.
I'd be suprised if any of them have even have Red Cross first aid training..
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Ham
I can almost hear their mental response to inquiry.. I would have asked it a long time ago as well, I'm sure.
"what are YOU doing to move *da word*?"
my response: "what the h*ll are YOU doing?"
If someone thinks that to assemble a bunch of naive, fawning followers to chop their firewood, butcher their chickens, clean up their farm.. undergo an almost full year of hazing.. in exchange of the "privilge" to hear ole vic's offpring spout vic's material.. or god forbid, sit for hours and listen to bootleg tapes.. to be "moving da word"..
they are.. for a lack of better description, in my opinion, NUTS.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
John Schoenheit did attend a theological seminary in Charlotte(Garrett?), NC to receive a Master's degree(whether in Arts, Theology, or Divinity not sure).
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jeast
I have no affiliation with CES so I am not defending any organization.
But whether it be John L or John S who I believe has did their best to study and learn and teach what they believed to be the truth.
Along the course of their lives do they make some bad choices? Of course they do. And some of them may have been for selfish reasons but who is to judge.
Not me! Just like a lot of folks on this site who have either been dooped or just plain made a very bad decision, I bet most of them were because they were trying to do something as opposed to just sitting back and doing nothing while watching everyone else make mistakes.
If you see someone with scars and bruises it is probably because they have been out front tryin to clear the path while the rest of us have been following.
And the guy out front is usually the one who steps on the land mine or booby trap. I am thankful for the person who is willing to take the lead because some of us are just not cut out for it.
This don't just apply to folks at CES or the so called offshoots but also to those who make GSC possible.
I just read one of John S's latest articles concerning his struggles (my words) with being over critical and trying to learn to love regardless of a persons doctrine.
As far as difficulties go, Anyone ever tried to make a band work? That's very difficult and that pales as compared to running any kind of ministry.
Offshoots? Lutheran, Catholic, Methodist, Pentecostal,(all flavors). We all have something in common yet we all have our differences too.
The Apostle Paul gave up a pretty lucrative job to move da word also.
Excuse me while I go take the mote out of my eye.
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Steveo
I never heard of CES before, been gone from the Way since 1984, but heres my view....
I wouldnt join an "Off shoot" of the Way because I feel many essentials of the Christian faith were wrongly taught. I know many of you would disagree, but I just don't feel comfortable having to argue with people about...Believing = recieving, Jesus Christ is not God, you MUST Tithe, You must not attend any church you want to, etc.....
And most importantly I really uncomfortable with the peer pressure and mind control used on me, always wanting more more more commitment....
I live in Orlando, Florida...home of "Benny Hinn" so I am observing his wacky "Faith Theology" with all his weird doctrines and fake claims of healing and raising people from the dead....
another words, Im really turned off by "organized religion"
I tried one Pentecostal church but evry time I went there they were pressuring me for more and more money to pay the mortgage on their HUGE cathedral, they called it "moving the mountain" I always thought....man Id rather just fellowship and hear the Word taught than to struggle every minute to help "move their mountain"
Also...many times Id show up and they would be televising the service, and it was more a TV studio atmosphere than a loving, felowshipping church
And about the Catholic church.....in Orlando its kinda huge and impersonal. When my Mom died last year they said that to have a funeral service would cost $1,800 !! And thats on top of all the other services! I went up to Massachusetts where Mom wanted to be buried and the little church there did the service for $110 Some of the folks in small Protestant churches tell me their churches would do a funeral service for free....
So...I just feel that with all the scandals.........Priests molesting kids, Jimmy Swagart's adultery, Benny Hinn getting caught in a lie about raising someone from the dead...Benny Hinn False Prophet
So its good to look closely before leaping, there are a lot bad organized churches out there.........
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jeast
I hear ya Steveo,
I feel a lot the same way. Religion, from my perspective has a way of screwing things up.
If someone was wanting to undermine God what do you think would be the best way to do it.
Let the suckers get as religious as they want and make sure they have a kazillion doctrines to fight over.
Most honest folks see that and come to the conclusion they want no part of it. Right on!
Many of us have come full circle in that we started out with a basic love for God and after a trip around the religious world we have come back to the love of God.
It's taken me at least 30 years and I am still working on it.
Some are caught up in being a bible scholar while losing sight of the real message.
John Schoenheit of CES as was mentioned before just wrote a article on just that.
Jesus loves us regardless and to me that is the message. By all means study the word to know God's will but if we don't learn to love one another we are pi**ing in the wind.
Sounds too simple but just look around and see how many of us are missing it.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Stevo and Jeast, Welcome! Would you like some fried chicken and fries?
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Steveo
Thanks!
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jeast
Thanks, I will never turn down chied fricken.
I will bring the sweet tea and mashed taters.
What the heck bring your music and let's just make it a picnic.
Regards
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lucyvanpelt
Hi Ham,
I am not doing anything to move God's Word. God is doing it as I am faithful to His Word. For example, witnessing, did any of you hunt down people out on "witnessing excersions"? From jumpstreet I did not like that idea. I didn't gripe or moan or whine, I just did it the way i believe God was leading me. If God came up in a conversation great, if not, I did not push it. God opens the door to a human heart. Just God, when it's right, in His time, if I am there to speak, yippeeee, if not, someone else may.
I am going to stick my neck out here.....even if the ministry hadn't of fallen apart, would we be honest enough with God and ourselves to continue to search the scriptures or would have the ministry turned into a denomination anyway due to apathy and thinking PFAL was a beall end all to the scriptures. It was a fair start, let's face 4 crucified still stands. He did get that right. But it needed a lot of work and it is a lifelong endeavor. And none of us will ever know it all anyway, no matter how bad we may want to.
Your paragraph that starts...If someone" are you reffering to CES, or CFF? Or bss, ...., or what. I will never be involved with any organized "group" again ever. Too much bs.
I am very happy with what I have. I found a real honest to goodness gift ministry and his longsuit is teaching. I know, we didn't really met that many true gift ministries in the WAY, they got a piece of paper and beat every body over the head with it. This man isn't like that. Four years, via emails, phone calls, and listening have changed me. I have grown more under the care of this one man over a thousand miles away from me, than I did the whole time with the Way. 6 years. I still hungered for God after 8 years away from everything and everybody Wayish. I still wanted God. Guess what I did, I googled Dr. Wierwille. Which led me here, which frankly back in 2004 freaked me out to be around any of you, but I did find a link. Michael Cortrights' family page. I clicked and found a map, with oodles and oodles of people. I clicked on a state and went down the rows and this man's name stuck out to me, I never met this man during my time with the ministry. I emailed and he emailed back. Then something bad happened to me (I lived) and he responded with love, maturity and dust yourself off and move on, and I asked him a question. Four years later I am not the same woman I was. I am better. I know how to work the Word. He had the nerve to call me names, A Berean. And faithful. Two words I never would have associated with me. And I got caught doing something naughty. I was ....ed at a friend, I cussed him out, and his friend knew I knew this minister and showed him what I wrote. (think back to what would have happened had it been a Way minister.......got it in your head. here's what happened. He wrote, I has heard something distressing, and I need to ask you if it's true, don't .... me, just tell me. Did you do such and such? Well, That was a crossroads. Was I going to rationalize or just take my lumps like a lady. So I responded with I did it. And you know what happened after that? He taught me God's Word, never brought it up again, and never held it against me. Not to this day. Considering how bad I got yelled at my pat lynn, john lynn, Pat Powell, Mary Powell, and other pompous fools, I was scared to cop to that to him, I was scared he would be like all the other people I trusted to teach me. Praise God, he isn't like that. Again, I am very happy with what I have.
Just so you know. He sends out teaching tapes every other week, no charge. Doesn't believe that one should charge for God's Word. He send out a newsletter and you can email anytime with any question and he can help. I have the utmost respect for him. Just send me a message and I will turn you on to him. He's cool.
Thanks for listening, I have to go wipe my eyes, that one made me cry......
Lucy
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Tzaia
I have a confession to make. I have been attending school for the past nearly 3 years and late last year I had a major epiphany. I am dealing with a major lack of faith in a risen lord right now. First of all, I went to Egypt last fall and spent most of my time there with Islamic guides. That was a real lesson in just learning how to be. I plan to go to the Middle East many more times, but only in a sociological context like I did the last time. It's very enlightening. Then I took a couple of humanities classes that covered early religions. I walked away with the gut feeling that Christianity isn't all that remarkable from a religious standpoint. Nothing has happened since then to change my mind. The more I try to reinsert myself into Christianity through reasoning and education, the harder it is to accept. Therefore, I can honestly say I'm doing nothing to move the "word" and find myself becoming more and more repelled by those who think they have all the right answers.
Points:
1. We have a Bible based on manuscripts with no originals to use for comparison's sake. If you don't have a problem with that, then how can anyone possibly have a problem with the Book of Mormon, or the Qur'an, or any other "text" that is supposedly divinely inspired that has no original manuscripts?
2. We have a savior that is risen, and a few more people who apparently were raised (not sure to new bodies and even then it's glossed over), yet no one outside the Christian community seems to know about it - even Josephus. You would think someone besides early Christian writers would find it worthy of mention. The only place you can find the evidence is in the Bible (see point #1).
3. I think it's kind of strange that he's ascended into heaven and is letting us have at it. Why? There is absolutely no reason to have this time gap where he's in heaven and we're down here trying to sort it all out with the help of the holy spirit, who could be an essence or a "person," depending on your point of view. But it's remarkably convenient.
4. I am very troubled by Paul's subsequent treatment and handling of women, particularly since it is very much at odds with how Jesus viewed and treated women. Even then, I found myself telling my husband that the submission of women to men seems just a little too convenient for my taste (yeah, I'm a troublemaker).
The more I look into it, the less convinced I am that this religion is significantly different than any other religion, and I find myself more and more put off by the claims of superiority and the notion that it is the final answer, when so much of it is still up in the air.
Christians boast about how rapidly Christianity grew. It's growth is nothing compared to the growth of early Islam. Ironically, Islam's early growth was largely due to the amassing and assimilation of knowledge at a time when Christianity was putting a real damper on the notion of having an educated and enlightened population. Moreover, Islam is firmly entrenched in an area where Christianity began. Am I the only one that finds that remarkable?
What I find is that groups such as TWI and STF and even most long-time organized groups rely on that sense of community, tradition, with a measure of guilt thrown in to hold people. The claim of having the truth is just that - a claim that could be based on a false premise.
Personally, I've been putting a bit of time into learning about the Law of Attraction (you are and attract what you think, or as a man thinks, so is he) and I'm not all that convinced that it's a load of rubbish. Although I do think the way TWI taught it was a load of rubbish.
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Steveo
It sounds like youve had some wonderful world travels and may God Bless you as you travel!
If you wanna see some of the info for Jesus and Christianity one of the best I know of is Lee Stroebel, who teahces about the evidence for the Bible and for Jesus Christs resurrection. When I feel any doubt I like to review the info that this writer provides.
Here is a link if you wanna check it out.......http://www.leestrobel.com/
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GrouchoMarxJr
Ummm...actually...no, he was wrong about that too...
I read these various posts and I feel like gagging...I smell "waybrain"...sorry...but I left twi concepts behind a long time ago..."move the word"???...please...where's my barf bucket.
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Ham
Well.. just suppose he DID get *that* right.. what REAL difference would it make?
Honestly. It's only vic's theology that requires the right "dividing" of a FEW biblical "hairs"..
How he could demand such accuracy on such an inane or trivial point.. and totally miss the boat on adultery, drugging and such.. which is PLAINLY in violation of what anyone with half a brain or conscience would consider the "will of God"..
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GrouchoMarxJr
Ham...I'm starting to wonder...it seems like some folks cling to the idea that VP, in spite of his hedonistic lifestyle, was still teaching "some pretty good stuff"...sorry...I totally disagree...Wierwille led people away from Christ (the absent one) towards himself...his doctrines were destructive to people's lives....he was an egotistical drunk...I dismiss, out of hand, anything he ever said...because HE said it...he was a louse and an abuser.
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