The Roman Catholic experience, like the TWI experience is subjective.
Like you, many people found the rules and regs of Catholicism oppressive, others find great meaning in the Catholic faith, while still others just go through the motions.
Compare that to TWI: your experiences in Wierwille-era TWI was very positive, while others who were involved during the same era had negative experiences.
With both, I think it depends on the individual, as well as the local "leadership", and the people that you are surrounded with.
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Rottiegirl: Oh, yes. I see some hypocrisy there. How about this? If you don't believe JC is God, you're a 'cult', right? Yet, Jews and Moslems don't believe that; Moslems believe he was a prophet and Jews believe he was a deceiver. Neither believe he's God. So which of these 'cult experts' is going to actually come out and admit that they really believe Jews and Moslems are 'cults', too? Can anyone say 'hell freezes over'?
It's all politics; the word 'cult' is a bigot slur like any other. It's only acceptable because the people in these 'cults' are perceived to be too small and powerless to fight back with any impact just like black people were perceived to be 50-100 yrs ago.
I'll ask one question in two different ways:
#1 - If I'm a cult and I never change what I believe, how much time, how much net worth, and how many members must I accumulate before I'm not a cult anymore?
#2 - If I'm the Roman Catholic Church, how many children must my priests molest before I become a cult?
The politics is even smellier than that. If you are religious, you found out TWI was a cult from trinitarians/ if you're not religious, you found out TWI was a cult from the media.
The trinitarian's explanation is obvious, but the media's explanation is most hypocritical. If you go to TWI and are taught that JC isn't God, etc. this is "MIND CONTROL"! If you go to the catholic church and are taught as a small child that if you ever leave the church you burn in hell forever, this is NOT mind control! LOL!
I am so happy I brought this up, because it's been on my mind for a long time. And these responses are wonderful. Very thought provoking.
Not to get off topic, but I really don't want to get into Catholic bashing. I'm sort of defensive over my mom, who's Roman Catholic, and I think many of there more "enlightened bretheren" could take a lesson from them in terms of works, and patience etc.
One lady I knew who was very sweet, and who I was becoming friends with, a few years ago, actually started picking on my mom and her beliefs. Boy was that the wrong thing to do. I told her if she didn't like the Catholics, to write the Pope, or the Cardinal in Chicago, but leave my mom the hell alone. I never heard from her again, and I think she should have apologized to me.
Anyway, I think johniam is correct about these "cult experts" not saying what they really think about Jews and Moslims.
And I would have to add the RC church as well, because they (the cult experts) would think that the Pope is acting as Jesus.
I mean, if it's within their own "christian definition" of what defines a cult, there either the biggest hypocrites in the world or just lying about what they really think. Well, it seems that way anyway.
...It's hard to be humble when you own a Rottweiler...
[This message was edited by RottieGrrrl on February 14, 2003 at 7:42.]
[This message was edited by RottieGrrrl on February 14, 2003 at 7:44.]
I don't have much time to reply, nor did I get thru the last few posts. Sorry but...
Does anyone else think that the bible and christianity and a number of religions are set up in a way that they are prone to "cult" characterists?
God is good and good always.
Why?
Because He says he is and most people agree that he is.
What happens if you don't live according to the loving principles he has set up?
You die without eternal life. Maybe you aren't blessed as much, maybe more bad things happen to you, maybe if you don't love him he doesn't treat you the same way he treats his beloved?
I know, I might be causing an uproar.
The devil is wrong and evil.
Why?
Because God says he is and most people agree with Him.
Satanists think its the other way around.
Why are they wrong?
Well they do have the word Satan in their name.
What will happen to them?
THey will not have eternal life, and maybe they will burn a little in the lake of fire or just die the second death. Depends on your interpretaion of the bad things that God says will happen.
I'll try to get back here soon.
Of course by that time ther will be another 50 posts.
Lindy: Interesting observation. Although I think that if most of these so called "satanists" knew who they were really worshipping, they wouldn't worship it. satan hates everybody.
johniam: I just wanted to add, that I think you are also on target when you said that the reason the mainstreamers pick on some of the cults because they are too small and powerless to fight back with any impact. CAN sure opened up a HUGE can of worms with the Scientologists. They had people with some real money who could fight back.
But then, the Mormons are picked on, and they certainly are a big group. So who knows.
...It's hard to be humble when you own a Rottweiler...
Okay, I checked out one of the links that diaz left, and honestly, this could be said for just about anybody. comments of mine are in parenthesis.
1. Authoritarian pyramid structure with authority at the top (okay, this can even be said with the smallest business)
2. Charismatic or messianic leaders ..Messianic meaning they either say they are God OR that they alone can interpret the scriptures the way God intended.....the leaders are self-appointed... (yeah, well, these guys may not come out and say it out loud like that, but you go to any religious church and the preacher will most likely ACT like they know what the scriptures really are supposed to mean. Look at all the doctrinal debates.)
3. Deception in recruitment and/or fund raising (where ever there is money, there is the possibility of deception, no matter how good the charity)
4. Isolation from society -- not necessarily physical isolation like on some compound in Waco, but this can be psychological isolation -- the rest of the world is not saved, not Christian, not transformed..whatever.. -- the only valid source of feedback and information is the group (many mainstream religions feel this way)
5. Use of mind control techniques (what is mind control is debateable. I've heard SITing is a form of mind control. Which I think is nonsense.)
So see, I really think these points are very debatable. And certainly not reliable. Very subjective to private interpretation. And they can be very manipulative as well.
...It's hard to be humble when you own a Rottweiler...
The best way to make me look good, is to make you look bad.
This is doctrinally speaking, and in relation to how people choose, or rather have that choice made for them in the generalized dot org types of belief systems that smatter the planet.
But those that argue the exact number of pecans to make pie are either at those top hype levels notoriety or are maybe those that are the rank and file, card carrying, kool aid drinkers of what ever brand x belief system they got...
Just a thought, seems that when it comes to the 3 in 1 oil , er rather, God debate, which has been yada yada yada(ing) on this planet that you call earth for about ummmm 1600 yrs conservatively...
Say, why didn't JEsus or God or anyone else give it the major deal snow job that religious yahoos do from the dot com to dot com do today.
THE IDENTITY OF GOD
haven't they like fought wars and sh&t over this?
No doubt cult status can be top floored in the elevator of religion by not having your God uno, dosed, or tresed properly in the eyes of either your radical Right Wing Ohio groups or your artsy Medieval (trying to get modern) group and with Protestants and others somewhere in in the spectrum.
but who gives a rat's anus??
what is this the troll at the bridge in the holy grail? gimmmmmmeee a break...
nobody understood who Christ was when he was stinking sandals down here, and you think god is going to hold some people to the fire, when He or his son was not here half past 4000 years???
sounds weird to me...
maybe i eat to much coal...
but yes the cult definition is used to toss dirt on one bunch by the others and by the others back on to them...
I think a better term would be Controlling Asswipes Like Them... CALT... kind of non descript but to the point...
quote:The one thing that bothers me when people call TWI a cult, is when they bring their doctrine into it. And I mean the Trinity (yes, there's the unmentionable T word I swore I'd stay away from) and the "divinity, or pre-existance of Jesus."
It bothers me too, but not too much anymore. But it is not the secular "cult experts" that normally bring the Trinity into the mix. It is mainstream Christians and some of their so-called "cult experts."
I wrote to Matt Slick at www.carm.org about this a long time ago, and he believes that a group is a cult if it does not espouse and teach the doctrine of the Deity of Christ. It seems to be one of the primary criteria for determining a cult among many Protestant and Catholic organizations.
The Trinity is considered by many to be an "essential doctrine" of Christianity - necessary in order to be Christian. So to these folks, if a group claims to be Christian or to follow Christ or the Bible, it must teach the Trinity or else it is not truly Christian and it's adherents are not saved. It is therefore considered a cult and a false religion.
These "essential doctrines" according to Matt Slick are.
1. The Deity of Christ (Trinity)
2. The Resurrection
3. Salvation by Grace
Here is what Matt Slick says on the CARM Web Site:
quote:The definition I use for "non-Christian cult" or "non-Christian religion" is a group that may or may not include the Bible in its set of authoritative scriptures. If it does include the Bible, it distorts the true biblical doctrines that effect salvation sufficiently so as to void salvation. If it doesn't use the Bible, it is a non-Christian religion and does not participate in the benefit of divine revelation.
So this is a lot of the "why" that the Trinity comes up in regards to cults. Not that I agree with it - I don't.
But it is not a whole lot different than a non-Trinitarian referring to a Trinitarian an idoloter.
quote:So see, I really think these points are very debatable. And certainly not reliable. Very subjective to private interpretation. And they can be very manipulative as well.
Rottiegirl, I agree with your statement and that's pretty much how I feel about it. If one uses the same standards across the board, I have little problems identifying cults and identifying TWI as a cult if you also include the RC church and other churches in the mix for their oft evil ways. Let's not give any of these groups a break if the standard is identifying evil.
Thanks Goey for pointing out the trinity in the mix.
I agree that if the trinity is supposed to be such a major point of being a Christian, don't you think at least the WORD itself would appear in the bible? That's a word that was added and as I recall there is something in Revelation about not doing stuff like that.
Or at the least, it would be made very clear that it is imperitive to believe Jesus is God in order to have salvation? I was raised Catholic and didn't even know that was what I was supposed to believe in.
Goey, interesting response you got from Matt Slick. (what a name) So even if they believe that not believing in the trinity means that you are not Christian, It still seems like narrow minded logic to call it a cult.
Would never hold up in Court.
Oldies: yes, I am beginning to redo my thinking about this whole "cult" word myself. I believe religions can be abusive, manipulative, controlling and damaging, to various degrees. But it IS hypocritical not to hold everyone to the same standard. Then you just start making excuses for mainstream religions, which could be held under the same scrutiny.
I remember hearing teachings, even on the 700 club, where they said that God was always in the minority. The law of the land and religion was always someone else.
Well what makes that so different today? Why should the mainstreamers be the only ones right today?
I think if Jesus were here today he would call us ALL a bunch of clueless hypocrites. Well, just my opinion I suppose.
Geez what great replies.
...It's hard to be humble when you own a Rottweiler...
[This message was edited by RottieGrrrl on February 16, 2003 at 7:00.]
[This message was edited by RottieGrrrl on February 16, 2003 at 7:19.]
Hi y'all. I thought I'd weigh in on this since I attended the American Family Foundation's conference on Cult Awareness this past summer.
Amongst the professionals there, they prefer to use the terminology, "High Demand Abusive Groups" which I think is much more accurate than the word "cult." Many groups of "cultic" nature are not religiously motivated in the least...yet they are still abusive and highly demanding.
There are many political "cults" out there that have nothing at all to do with religion. They do, however, have a charasmatic leader who is controlling, abusive at times (remember the cycle of abuse is not always bad...there are the 'fairytale' times and the 'tension building' times). In fact, I have noticed that the nationally recognized sorority my daughter has joined is 'cultic' in nature...secret rules, secret sayings, meetings for this and that. Recruitment practices. The problem comes when a group becomes abusive and demanding of all of one's heart and soul.
The word "cult" is still used because it is more universally recognized. The phrase "High Demand Abusive Group" is definitely more accurate because it doesn't differentiate religious doctrines as much as it defines a group's harmful practices.
Hope that helps. Perhaps we should all try to eliminate the 'cult' word from our terminology but it's just so darned hard!
hugs,
Robi
Hi Robi. You're post just popped up in my mailbox. What you just said seems much, much, more on track than the term "cult group." Thank you very much for the input. Makes much better sense to me!
PS. Do all you Southerners have a y'all key on your keyboard?
I know I know you can me for that but I couldn't resist.
...It's hard to be humble when you own a Rottweiler...
quote: Does anyone else think that the bible and christianity and a number of religions are set up in a way that they are prone to "cult" characterists?
quote: The devil is wrong and evil.
Why?
Because God says he is and most people agree with Him.
Satanists think its the other way around.
Why are they wrong?
Well they do have the word Satan in their name.
you replied:
quote: Lindy: Interesting observation. Although I think that if most of these so called "satanists" knew who they were really worshipping, they wouldn't worship it. satan hates everybody.
Where did you here that from? Did he tell you that personally? ;)-->
You may have just added to my point.
I am not trying to be patronizing or anything, just challenging the idea.
An ultimatum is a form of coercion and an attemt to passively control the decision of the one it is given to. What kind of a choice is "life or death" or "heaven or hell"?
It may not be as apparent when we are talking about God, but nor is it apparent to twi innies that they are in an abusive cult.
Could I not also say that those that believe in God, "believers", and disagree with me just don't see it because they are "innies"? They don't see the control. All they see is the good. They don't see the manipulation. They only see the "free will". They don't see my freedom. They only see my sin.
Is the concept of being saved all that different from TWI's view of being in the household. The word "saved" alone implies that if your not saved your in for some sh1t.
Well, for one, we don't have a choice between life or death. Personally, I wouldn't WANT to live forever in this world. Wouldn't that be horrible?
And I DON'T believe that Christians are the only ones who are going to heaven. But speaking for myself, I need a saviour.
Sometimes I have gotten mad at my mom for bringing me into this world. And mad at God for bringing my soul forth.
So we are here, and we will die, and the bible makes the most sense to me. I could question things from here to eternity lindyhopper, and I have, it's brought me little peace.
I need someone to trust in, desperately. Someone who knows what's going on, even if it seems futile and screwed up to me.
I choose to try to build that trust in God. And I am trying, underline trying, not to dwell to much on things are beyond my grasp or control I suppose.
...It's hard to be humble when you own a Rottweiler...
[This message was edited by RottieGrrrl on February 16, 2003 at 17:53.]
sigh....yes, don't we all need someone to trust in.
I think you are making a good choice...trying to build that trust in God. Maybe I, as you perhaps, am finding out the hard way.
Maybe I have trusted in people too much. But maybe that is not the best way to put it, as it may imply the primary problem is my friends not living up to God's standards. More like, my standards...that I am expecting from people what I should be expecting from God.
The just dropping out of what had been a very close friend, or so I thought. The change in another who said, "I'll always be there for you", followed later by "my table is full". Or the preparation to writing a couple friends on an important matter, only to lose the hear when I discover that one is involved in frequent ridicule, which I dont like, even when it is of others.
It is hard, though, to think lowly of them when I look at the ways I get off base. I will spare you the list for now.
What has this to do with this thread? Well, the reason I don't like the "cult" label, for TWI or anything, has nothing to do with bad things happening. Let the testimonies be given and stand on their own. I will not deny those testimonies. But suddenly in "cult" mode, everything good becomes an accident; everything done is because of "mind control" or "waybrain". Such as recently when one poster described someone in the past doing a rather unlikeable thing; this poster had to describe her attempt to help this person as "the waybrain kicked in". Since when is it waybrain to love the unlovable, to try to help the seemingly unhelpable? But evidently , the cult mentality will not allow a person to have had real heart in TWI, or at best it has to be "in spite of" TWI, lest someone admit we really learned something about the heart of God.
One of the above mentioned friends once wrote to me that "TWI taught me how to live" while at the same time "recognized the evil that evolved in TWI". That remains a valuable testimony to me.
I guess instead of counting friends, it may help, as Rottie is trying, to "try to build that trsut in God". Or perhaps...to "Turn your eyes upon Jesus"...but that is a song that VPW liked to sing in the last '70s, such as at PFAL77, so it must be waybrain, huh?
Robi, I am impressed! Excellent and more professionally objective definition ya got there. And one that has my respect for the American Family Foundation take a big jump! :)-->
"Perhaps we should all try to eliminate the 'cult' word from our terminology but it's just so darned hard!"
I know, I know, and thats the downside of our culture; too often when a term reaches the 'critical mass' of popularity, it becomes pert near impossible to educate thoroughly about the flawedness of that term.
Once again, WHOOO HOOO! (Garth does a Mike's World Two Thumbs Up with a Silly Grin)
R***, I am impressed! Excellent and more professionally objective definition ya got there. And one that has my respect for the A.F.F. take a big jump! :)-->
"Perhaps we should all try to eliminate the 'cult' word from our terminology but it's just so darned hard!"
I know, I know, and thats the downside of our culture; too often when a term reaches the 'critical mass' of popularity, it becomes pert near impossible to educate thoroughly about the flawedness of that term.
Once again, WHOOO HOOO! (Garth does a Mike's World Two Thumbs Up with a Silly Grin)
:D-->
P.S., I posted this post early this morning, and it was nailed for a 'catch phrase' which I thought would have been cleared up by now, as I saw Rottiegrrl's mention of the same name in the post that I'm replying to. --> So just in case it was lost in the the cyber-traffic, I'm posting it again, this time with the name ***'d out.
Garth, regarding your "catch phrase" post...the mutual admiration society it is related to is as alive and well as ever...you should take a look at the other end.
I agree that "cult" is not a particularly descriptive or accurate word, as applied to TWI. Some cults actually do some good (The cuisine at Hare Krishna-owned restaurants is some of the most excellent Indian food I've ever eaten).
TWI was Organized psychosis. A corporation with degeneracy as its primary goal and product. Biblically-ordained Racketeer and Corrupt organization. Vee Pee Wee Willy's - God's Hottest Thief and Sex pervert - Altar Ego.
Lifted you brought up some excellent points. thank you.
Garth: LOL I swear at first I didn't know who you were talking about! I was scratching my head.(I see your original finally appeared. Mine took awhile too.) That's why I copied R***'s post over in mine. Cause by the time it popped up in my mailbox I saw that it was several days old and way at the top of this thread, and I didn't want anyone to miss it.
...It's hard to be humble when you own a Rottweiler...
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Oakspear
Oldies:
The Roman Catholic experience, like the TWI experience is subjective.
Like you, many people found the rules and regs of Catholicism oppressive, others find great meaning in the Catholic faith, while still others just go through the motions.
Compare that to TWI: your experiences in Wierwille-era TWI was very positive, while others who were involved during the same era had negative experiences.
With both, I think it depends on the individual, as well as the local "leadership", and the people that you are surrounded with.
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
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johniam
Rottiegirl: Oh, yes. I see some hypocrisy there. How about this? If you don't believe JC is God, you're a 'cult', right? Yet, Jews and Moslems don't believe that; Moslems believe he was a prophet and Jews believe he was a deceiver. Neither believe he's God. So which of these 'cult experts' is going to actually come out and admit that they really believe Jews and Moslems are 'cults', too? Can anyone say 'hell freezes over'?
It's all politics; the word 'cult' is a bigot slur like any other. It's only acceptable because the people in these 'cults' are perceived to be too small and powerless to fight back with any impact just like black people were perceived to be 50-100 yrs ago.
I'll ask one question in two different ways:
#1 - If I'm a cult and I never change what I believe, how much time, how much net worth, and how many members must I accumulate before I'm not a cult anymore?
#2 - If I'm the Roman Catholic Church, how many children must my priests molest before I become a cult?
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johniam
The politics is even smellier than that. If you are religious, you found out TWI was a cult from trinitarians/ if you're not religious, you found out TWI was a cult from the media.
The trinitarian's explanation is obvious, but the media's explanation is most hypocritical. If you go to TWI and are taught that JC isn't God, etc. this is "MIND CONTROL"! If you go to the catholic church and are taught as a small child that if you ever leave the church you burn in hell forever, this is NOT mind control! LOL!
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RottieGrrrl
I am so happy I brought this up, because it's been on my mind for a long time. And these responses are wonderful. Very thought provoking.
Not to get off topic, but I really don't want to get into Catholic bashing. I'm sort of defensive over my mom, who's Roman Catholic, and I think many of there more "enlightened bretheren" could take a lesson from them in terms of works, and patience etc.
One lady I knew who was very sweet, and who I was becoming friends with, a few years ago, actually started picking on my mom and her beliefs. Boy was that the wrong thing to do. I told her if she didn't like the Catholics, to write the Pope, or the Cardinal in Chicago, but leave my mom the hell alone. I never heard from her again, and I think she should have apologized to me.
Anyway, I think johniam is correct about these "cult experts" not saying what they really think about Jews and Moslims.
And I would have to add the RC church as well, because they (the cult experts) would think that the Pope is acting as Jesus.
I mean, if it's within their own "christian definition" of what defines a cult, there either the biggest hypocrites in the world or just lying about what they really think. Well, it seems that way anyway.
...It's hard to be humble when you own a Rottweiler...
[This message was edited by RottieGrrrl on February 14, 2003 at 7:42.]
[This message was edited by RottieGrrrl on February 14, 2003 at 7:44.]
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lindyhopper
I don't have much time to reply, nor did I get thru the last few posts. Sorry but...
Does anyone else think that the bible and christianity and a number of religions are set up in a way that they are prone to "cult" characterists?
God is good and good always.
Why?
Because He says he is and most people agree that he is.
What happens if you don't live according to the loving principles he has set up?
You die without eternal life. Maybe you aren't blessed as much, maybe more bad things happen to you, maybe if you don't love him he doesn't treat you the same way he treats his beloved?
I know, I might be causing an uproar.
The devil is wrong and evil.
Why?
Because God says he is and most people agree with Him.
Satanists think its the other way around.
Why are they wrong?
Well they do have the word Satan in their name.
What will happen to them?
THey will not have eternal life, and maybe they will burn a little in the lake of fire or just die the second death. Depends on your interpretaion of the bad things that God says will happen.
I'll try to get back here soon.
Of course by that time ther will be another 50 posts.
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RottieGrrrl
Lindy: Interesting observation. Although I think that if most of these so called "satanists" knew who they were really worshipping, they wouldn't worship it. satan hates everybody.
johniam: I just wanted to add, that I think you are also on target when you said that the reason the mainstreamers pick on some of the cults because they are too small and powerless to fight back with any impact. CAN sure opened up a HUGE can of worms with the Scientologists. They had people with some real money who could fight back.
But then, the Mormons are picked on, and they certainly are a big group. So who knows.
...It's hard to be humble when you own a Rottweiler...
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RottieGrrrl
Okay, I checked out one of the links that diaz left, and honestly, this could be said for just about anybody. comments of mine are in parenthesis.
1. Authoritarian pyramid structure with authority at the top (okay, this can even be said with the smallest business)
2. Charismatic or messianic leaders ..Messianic meaning they either say they are God OR that they alone can interpret the scriptures the way God intended.....the leaders are self-appointed... (yeah, well, these guys may not come out and say it out loud like that, but you go to any religious church and the preacher will most likely ACT like they know what the scriptures really are supposed to mean. Look at all the doctrinal debates.)
3. Deception in recruitment and/or fund raising (where ever there is money, there is the possibility of deception, no matter how good the charity)
4. Isolation from society -- not necessarily physical isolation like on some compound in Waco, but this can be psychological isolation -- the rest of the world is not saved, not Christian, not transformed..whatever.. -- the only valid source of feedback and information is the group (many mainstream religions feel this way)
5. Use of mind control techniques (what is mind control is debateable. I've heard SITing is a form of mind control. Which I think is nonsense.)
So see, I really think these points are very debatable. And certainly not reliable. Very subjective to private interpretation. And they can be very manipulative as well.
...It's hard to be humble when you own a Rottweiler...
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Bluetent
Hummm, RottieGrrl, I think you may have just described the Democratic Party :-)
Bluetent
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GarthP2000
Yikes! And Al Gore could have been their Grande High Poobah, The Inventor of the Internet for our Day and Time!
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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RottieGrrrl
Democrats?? I was thinking the Republicans! SEE what I mean about being subjective???
ps. i'm kidding, but I feel I should stick up for the demi's.
...It's hard to be humble when you own a Rottweiler...
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jediknight777
The best way to make me look good, is to make you look bad.
This is doctrinally speaking, and in relation to how people choose, or rather have that choice made for them in the generalized dot org types of belief systems that smatter the planet.
But those that argue the exact number of pecans to make pie are either at those top hype levels notoriety or are maybe those that are the rank and file, card carrying, kool aid drinkers of what ever brand x belief system they got...
Just a thought, seems that when it comes to the 3 in 1 oil , er rather, God debate, which has been yada yada yada(ing) on this planet that you call earth for about ummmm 1600 yrs conservatively...
Say, why didn't JEsus or God or anyone else give it the major deal snow job that religious yahoos do from the dot com to dot com do today.
THE IDENTITY OF GOD
haven't they like fought wars and sh&t over this?
No doubt cult status can be top floored in the elevator of religion by not having your God uno, dosed, or tresed properly in the eyes of either your radical Right Wing Ohio groups or your artsy Medieval (trying to get modern) group and with Protestants and others somewhere in in the spectrum.
but who gives a rat's anus??
what is this the troll at the bridge in the holy grail? gimmmmmmeee a break...
nobody understood who Christ was when he was stinking sandals down here, and you think god is going to hold some people to the fire, when He or his son was not here half past 4000 years???
sounds weird to me...
maybe i eat to much coal...
but yes the cult definition is used to toss dirt on one bunch by the others and by the others back on to them...
I think a better term would be Controlling Asswipes Like Them... CALT... kind of non descript but to the point...
jedi...
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Goey
Rottie,
You Posted:
It bothers me too, but not too much anymore. But it is not the secular "cult experts" that normally bring the Trinity into the mix. It is mainstream Christians and some of their so-called "cult experts."
I wrote to Matt Slick at www.carm.org about this a long time ago, and he believes that a group is a cult if it does not espouse and teach the doctrine of the Deity of Christ. It seems to be one of the primary criteria for determining a cult among many Protestant and Catholic organizations.
The Trinity is considered by many to be an "essential doctrine" of Christianity - necessary in order to be Christian. So to these folks, if a group claims to be Christian or to follow Christ or the Bible, it must teach the Trinity or else it is not truly Christian and it's adherents are not saved. It is therefore considered a cult and a false religion.
These "essential doctrines" according to Matt Slick are.
1. The Deity of Christ (Trinity)
2. The Resurrection
3. Salvation by Grace
Here is what Matt Slick says on the CARM Web Site:
So this is a lot of the "why" that the Trinity comes up in regards to cults. Not that I agree with it - I don't.
But it is not a whole lot different than a non-Trinitarian referring to a Trinitarian an idoloter.
Goey
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oldiesman
Rottiegirl, I agree with your statement and that's pretty much how I feel about it. If one uses the same standards across the board, I have little problems identifying cults and identifying TWI as a cult if you also include the RC church and other churches in the mix for their oft evil ways. Let's not give any of these groups a break if the standard is identifying evil.
Thanks Goey for pointing out the trinity in the mix.
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RottieGrrrl
I agree that if the trinity is supposed to be such a major point of being a Christian, don't you think at least the WORD itself would appear in the bible? That's a word that was added and as I recall there is something in Revelation about not doing stuff like that.
Or at the least, it would be made very clear that it is imperitive to believe Jesus is God in order to have salvation? I was raised Catholic and didn't even know that was what I was supposed to believe in.
Goey, interesting response you got from Matt Slick. (what a name) So even if they believe that not believing in the trinity means that you are not Christian, It still seems like narrow minded logic to call it a cult.
Would never hold up in Court.
Oldies: yes, I am beginning to redo my thinking about this whole "cult" word myself. I believe religions can be abusive, manipulative, controlling and damaging, to various degrees. But it IS hypocritical not to hold everyone to the same standard. Then you just start making excuses for mainstream religions, which could be held under the same scrutiny.
I remember hearing teachings, even on the 700 club, where they said that God was always in the minority. The law of the land and religion was always someone else.
Well what makes that so different today? Why should the mainstreamers be the only ones right today?
I think if Jesus were here today he would call us ALL a bunch of clueless hypocrites. Well, just my opinion I suppose.
Geez what great replies.
...It's hard to be humble when you own a Rottweiler...
[This message was edited by RottieGrrrl on February 16, 2003 at 7:00.]
[This message was edited by RottieGrrrl on February 16, 2003 at 7:19.]
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RottieGrrrl
Hi Robi. You're post just popped up in my mailbox. What you just said seems much, much, more on track than the term "cult group." Thank you very much for the input. Makes much better sense to me!
PS. Do all you Southerners have a y'all key on your keyboard?
I know I know you can
me for that but I couldn't resist.
...It's hard to be humble when you own a Rottweiler...
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lindyhopper
Thanks for replying
Rottie
I wrote:
you replied:
Where did you here that from? Did he tell you that personally?
;)-->
You may have just added to my point.
I am not trying to be patronizing or anything, just challenging the idea.
An ultimatum is a form of coercion and an attemt to passively control the decision of the one it is given to. What kind of a choice is "life or death" or "heaven or hell"?
It may not be as apparent when we are talking about God, but nor is it apparent to twi innies that they are in an abusive cult.
Could I not also say that those that believe in God, "believers", and disagree with me just don't see it because they are "innies"? They don't see the control. All they see is the good. They don't see the manipulation. They only see the "free will". They don't see my freedom. They only see my sin.
Is the concept of being saved all that different from TWI's view of being in the household. The word "saved" alone implies that if your not saved your in for some sh1t.
So, what do ya think?
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RottieGrrrl
Well, for one, we don't have a choice between life or death. Personally, I wouldn't WANT to live forever in this world. Wouldn't that be horrible?
And I DON'T believe that Christians are the only ones who are going to heaven. But speaking for myself, I need a saviour.
Sometimes I have gotten mad at my mom for bringing me into this world. And mad at God for bringing my soul forth.
So we are here, and we will die, and the bible makes the most sense to me. I could question things from here to eternity lindyhopper, and I have, it's brought me little peace.
I need someone to trust in, desperately. Someone who knows what's going on, even if it seems futile and screwed up to me.
I choose to try to build that trust in God. And I am trying, underline trying, not to dwell to much on things are beyond my grasp or control I suppose.
...It's hard to be humble when you own a Rottweiler...
[This message was edited by RottieGrrrl on February 16, 2003 at 17:53.]
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Lifted Up
sigh....yes, don't we all need someone to trust in.
I think you are making a good choice...trying to build that trust in God. Maybe I, as you perhaps, am finding out the hard way.
Maybe I have trusted in people too much. But maybe that is not the best way to put it, as it may imply the primary problem is my friends not living up to God's standards. More like, my standards...that I am expecting from people what I should be expecting from God.
The just dropping out of what had been a very close friend, or so I thought. The change in another who said, "I'll always be there for you", followed later by "my table is full". Or the preparation to writing a couple friends on an important matter, only to lose the hear when I discover that one is involved in frequent ridicule, which I dont like, even when it is of others.
It is hard, though, to think lowly of them when I look at the ways I get off base. I will spare you the list for now.
What has this to do with this thread? Well, the reason I don't like the "cult" label, for TWI or anything, has nothing to do with bad things happening. Let the testimonies be given and stand on their own. I will not deny those testimonies. But suddenly in "cult" mode, everything good becomes an accident; everything done is because of "mind control" or "waybrain". Such as recently when one poster described someone in the past doing a rather unlikeable thing; this poster had to describe her attempt to help this person as "the waybrain kicked in". Since when is it waybrain to love the unlovable, to try to help the seemingly unhelpable? But evidently , the cult mentality will not allow a person to have had real heart in TWI, or at best it has to be "in spite of" TWI, lest someone admit we really learned something about the heart of God.
One of the above mentioned friends once wrote to me that "TWI taught me how to live" while at the same time "recognized the evil that evolved in TWI". That remains a valuable testimony to me.
I guess instead of counting friends, it may help, as Rottie is trying, to "try to build that trsut in God". Or perhaps...to "Turn your eyes upon Jesus"...but that is a song that VPW liked to sing in the last '70s, such as at PFAL77, so it must be waybrain, huh?
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GarthP2000
Re Robi's post to Rottiegrrl,
Siskel and Garthbert gives it two thumbs up!!
Robi, I am impressed! Excellent and more professionally objective definition ya got there. And one that has my respect for the American Family Foundation take a big jump!
:)-->
"Perhaps we should all try to eliminate the 'cult' word from our terminology but it's just so darned hard!"
I know, I know, and thats the downside of our culture; too often when a term reaches the 'critical mass' of popularity, it becomes pert near impossible to educate thoroughly about the flawedness of that term.
Once again, WHOOO HOOO! (Garth does a Mike's World Two Thumbs Up with a Silly Grin)
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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GarthP2000
Re R***'s post to Rottiegrrl,
Siskel and Garthbert gives it two thumbs up!!
R***, I am impressed! Excellent and more professionally objective definition ya got there. And one that has my respect for the A.F.F. take a big jump!
:)-->
"Perhaps we should all try to eliminate the 'cult' word from our terminology but it's just so darned hard!"
I know, I know, and thats the downside of our culture; too often when a term reaches the 'critical mass' of popularity, it becomes pert near impossible to educate thoroughly about the flawedness of that term.
Once again, WHOOO HOOO! (Garth does a Mike's World Two Thumbs Up with a Silly Grin)
P.S., I posted this post early this morning, and it was nailed for a 'catch phrase' which I thought would have been cleared up by now, as I saw Rottiegrrl's mention of the same name in the post that I'm replying to.
--> So just in case it was lost in the the cyber-traffic, I'm posting it again, this time with the name ***'d out.
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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Lifted Up
Garth, regarding your "catch phrase" post...the mutual admiration society it is related to is as alive and well as ever...you should take a look at the other end.
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Larry P2
I agree that "cult" is not a particularly descriptive or accurate word, as applied to TWI. Some cults actually do some good (The cuisine at Hare Krishna-owned restaurants is some of the most excellent Indian food I've ever eaten).
TWI was Organized psychosis. A corporation with degeneracy as its primary goal and product. Biblically-ordained Racketeer and Corrupt organization. Vee Pee Wee Willy's - God's Hottest Thief and Sex pervert - Altar Ego.
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RottieGrrrl
Lifted you brought up some excellent points. thank you.
Garth: LOL I swear at first I didn't know who you were talking about! I was scratching my head.(I see your original finally appeared. Mine took awhile too.) That's why I copied R***'s post over in mine. Cause by the time it popped up in my mailbox I saw that it was several days old and way at the top of this thread, and I didn't want anyone to miss it.
...It's hard to be humble when you own a Rottweiler...
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