Homosexuality

[jen-o]

Rhino and Jeno, my overall impression in these discussions is that your minds are made up and you are not going to be persuaded to a different pov, regardless of what anyone says to you.

huh? so that's what the goal is!... to try to "persuade" me to a different pov?

yeah, my mind is made up... is that suppose to be a bad thing?!?

i've read the scriptures concerning "homosexual acts",

i've let the scriptures speak for themselves without my having a hidden agenda...

and i've come to my conclusion thru research, analysis, and logic...

so are you telling me that is a bad thing?!?

abi, you've never made up your mind about anything?

i don't think the problem is that i've "made up my mind", i think the problem is you don't like my conclusion...

What I fail to understand is why the two of you insist on following her from thread to thread on this topic and hounding her, when she has already said she does not care to debate it with you?

again i say: huh?

what makes you think that i am following eyes around...

i had been posting on the "God bless CA" thread long BEFORE eyes showed up there!

my question to eyes on her book thread concerned her false accusation that she had been "attacked"...

and i began posting here in response to lindy's question about "abominations"...

i will say this though: when people don't like what another person is saying, they sure pull out the "victim" mentality in order to shut them up!

Do you think if you nag her enough she will give in???

give in to what??

reality check: this is a conversation on a message board...

i originally asked eyes why she disagreed with the plain meaning of the scripture... (no response)

i then asked eyes for the who, what, where, & when of the alleged "attacks"... (again, no response)

abi, are you telling me that certain questions are "off-limit" on a message board??

and perhaps you think that certain opinions should be "off-limit" as well...

Do you think you would like someone to follow you from thread to thread and hound you into engaging in a debate you have already said you have no desire to engage in???

more of the same old victim mentality...

i've been accused of: hounding, nagging, stalking (following), attacking...

all because i asked for the reasons why someone disagreed with the plain meaning of sciptures...

this is definitely one hot topic...

people seem to be willing to go to any lengths to stop the mouth of one who repeats the plain meaning of scriptures...

is the plain scriptural meaning really that threatening?

evidently so...

now people may disagree with the bible, they may criticize the bible for being "flawed", they may point to outside sources to support their opinion, they may set up a straw man argument accusing those who disgree with them of "hating homosexuals", they may pull out the persecuted victim mentality to garner sympathy, etc. etc. ... they do everything BUT support the opinion that the bible approves of homosexuality...

and i have seen NO EVIDENCE, ABSOLUTELY NONE, that supports the opinion that the bible approves of homosexual acts!

and folks have had plenty of opportunity to present such information (if it did exist)...

btw, abi, if someone does not want to engage in debate about whether homosexual acts are right or wrong according to the bible, then why would that person post on a doctrinal discussion thread in the doctrinal forum?!?... seems to me that's what happens on doctrinal threads...

peace,

jen-o

Edited June 11, 2008 by jen-o

[jen-o]

And there it is in a nutshell. The way I read this is "Eyes you can 'explain' your position until you are blue in the face and you will always be wrong, because what I see is 'clearly stated'."

eyes, you have yet to "explain" your position or support your opinion that homosexuality is "okay" according to the bible...

you have been evasive and have avoided doing this...

how do you expect me to "nod in assent" to something that you have never clearly expounded on?

i have watched you evade the topic for 18 days (since may 24th)...

you have spent more time talking about how much information there is... and very little time actually presenting any of it...

so yes, i'm assuming that is because you do not have any evidence that the bible approves of homosexuality...

if someone had evidence of this, i would think that they would want to shout it from the rooftops!

So I ask you...why should I bother?

you haven't... you haven't bothered to support your opinion for 18 days, so i wouldn't expect you to start now...

Cman, I agree with you 100%. I am tired of the changing field and being the a target.

the subject has always been: are homosexual acts right or wrong according to the bible...

and i do note the "persecuted victim mentality" use of the word "target"...

peace,

jen-o

Edited June 11, 2008 by jen-o

[Bramble]

Homosexuality is more than just an act, and more than a sexual practice. One can be celbate and still be homosexual.

How does the doctrine of homosexaulity is not ok according to the Bible help any one? Does it prevent homosexuality? change homosexuals into heterosexuals? Protect us non homosexuals from them in some way???

How did they become homosexuals according to this doctrine?

How does this doctrine fit in with God is Love?

Where's the deliverance? How's that doctrine going to help that gay couple down the street?

You have your Bible verses. How's that all working in the real world?

Oh, wait, I forgot, that doesn't matter in a doctrinal discussion.

[rhino]

You have your Bible verses. How's that all working in the real world?

Oh, wait, I forgot, that doesn't matter in a doctrinal discussion.

No, you didn't forget ... those are questions that could be asked and answered somewhere else, it is not a question of whether they matter, but they are a separate issue. That is a matter of application or practice ...

... but why are people even in the doctrinal forum that have decided the Bible doctrine is flawed or hateful or just plain wrong?

Of all the accusations flying around ... isn't this a forum for people that DO believe ... and yet some come in here to call them hateful or wrong or whatever ...

[Abigail]

No, you didn't forget ... those are questions that could be asked and answered somewhere else, it is not a question of whether they matter, but they are a separate issue. That is a matter of application or practice ...

... but why are people even in the doctrinal forum that have decided the Bible doctrine is flawed or hateful or just plain wrong?

Of all the accusations flying around ... isn't this a forum for people that DO believe ... and yet some come in here to call them hateful or wrong or whatever ...

Doctrine is not limited to bible believing Christians, Rhino. This isn't the Christian only forum or even the Biblical discussions only forum. :blink:

Edited June 11, 2008 by Abigail

[Abigail]

WW seemed to recognize that earlier and left earlier ... but I don't think he was accused of anything.

So your continued harassment is your response to your perception that she attacked you? Sheesh, I've called you worse things on these boards than anything she said in her posts to you and you haven't followed me around harassing me. So, I guess, in other words, I'm not buying your justification of your behavior. In the end, though, I guess it doesn't matter if I buy it or not. But its starting to look like maybe you simply have thing for Eyes and you know what they say - negative attention is better than no attention at all.

[Abigail]

Rhino and Jeno, my overall impression in these discussions is that your minds are made up and you are not going to be persuaded to a different pov, regardless of what anyone says to you.

huh? so that's what the goal is!... to try to "persuade" me to a different pov?

yeah, my mind is made up... is that suppose to be a bad thing?!?

i've read the scriptures concerning "homosexual acts",

i've let the scriptures speak for themselves without my having a hidden agenda...

and i've come to my conclusion thru research, analysis, and logic...

so are you telling me that is a bad thing?!?

abi, you've never made up your mind about anything?

i don't think the problem is that i've "made up my mind", i think the problem is you don't like my conclusion...

No, it is not necessarily a bad thing to have your mind made up. I have my mind made up too - so what. And yes, to some degree or another, my participation in discussions of this nature (doctrinal, political, etc.) is to persuade and be persuaded both. So, if I am neither going to persuade or be pursuaded, what is the point. Why do you participate in such discussions, if not to do the same? Most people express their opinion because they think someone is interested in hearing it. Usually someone is interested in hearing it because it reaffirms their own belief (in a sense a form of persuasion) or it causes them to consider another perspective (again, in a sense, a form of persuasion.)

What I fail to understand is why the two of you insist on following her from thread to thread on this topic and hounding her, when she has already said she does not care to debate it with you?

again i say: huh?

what makes you think that i am following eyes around...

i had been posting on the "God bless CA" thread long BEFORE eyes showed up there!

my question to eyes on her book thread concerned her false accusation that she had been "attacked"...

and i began posting here in response to lindy's question about "abominations"...

i will say this though: when people don't like what another person is saying, they sure pull out the "victim" mentality in order to shut them up!

Oh give me a break! Eyes has certainly not proclaimed herself a victim and neither have I. I have simply expressed my impression of your behavior here. Yes, you posted first, but since her post you have asked her over and over and over again to answer questions she has already said she is not interested in answering. From where I am sitting, that is hounding and harassing.

Do you think if you nag her enough she will give in???

give in to what??

reality check: this is a conversation on a message board...

i originally asked eyes why she disagreed with the plain meaning of the scripture... (no response)

i then asked eyes for the who, what, where, & when of the alleged "attacks"... (again, no response)

abi, are you telling me that certain questions are "off-limit" on a message board??

and perhaps you think that certain opinions should be "off-limit" as well...

No. I am telling you that when someone has repeatedly told you they do not care to discuss something with you, and you continue to nag them and harass them in an attempt to get them to discuss what they have already said they do not care to discuss with you, that it makes you look a little unhinged. And notice I said discuss with you. Just because Eyes does not care to debate this issue with you or Rhino, does not necessarily mean she does not wish to discuss it with others.

Do you think you would like someone to follow you from thread to thread and hound you into engaging in a debate you have already said you have no desire to engage in???

more of the same old victim mentality...

i've been accused of: hounding, nagging, stalking (following), attacking...

all because i asked for the reasons why someone disagreed with the plain meaning of sciptures...

this is definitely one hot topic...

people seem to be willing to go to any lengths to stop the mouth of one who repeats the plain meaning of scriptures...

is the plain scriptural meaning really that threatening?

evidently so...

No, not for asking, but for asking over and over and over and over again, when you have already been told by her that she doesn't care to discuss it with you. Can you really not see the difference? I'm not trying to shut you up, except in the sense that every thread on the topic of homosexuality has become derailed by your insistence that Eyes answer your questions when she has already said she doesn't care to. You could discuss this issue with any of the other posters, ask them questions, etc. etc. and they may even be willing to respond. Instead, you continue to ask the one person who has already said she doesn't care to respond. Why is that?

now people may disagree with the bible, they may criticize the bible for being "flawed", they may point to outside sources to support their opinion, they may set up a straw man argument accusing those who disgree with them of "hating homosexuals", they may pull out the persecuted victim mentality to garner sympathy, etc. etc. ... they do everything BUT support the opinion that the bible approves of homosexuality...

and i have seen NO EVIDENCE, ABSOLUTELY NONE, that supports the opinion that the bible approves of homosexual acts!

and folks have had plenty of opportunity to present such information (if it did exist)...

btw, abi, if someone does not want to engage in debate about whether homosexual acts are right or wrong according to the bible, then why would that person post on a doctrinal discussion thread in the doctrinal forum?!?... seems to me that's what happens on doctrinal threads...

Perhaps that person would like to engage in a debate or discussion with some of the posters, but not all of them. Perhaps that person simply doesn't care to discuss it with you, but would like to continue conversing with Sir, Bramble, Roy, etc. etc.

peace,

jen-o

and for the record, Jeno, I am not saying these things because I am all buddy buddy best friends with Eyes. In actuality I have known you much longer and been on much friendlier terms with you, than I have ever been with Eyes.

I am saying them because I am completely frustrated. I actually am interested in the discussions on this topic, even if I have little to add by way of what the Bible does or does not say. Unfortunately all of the threads have become about Eyes, you and Rhino. Eyes won't answer, you two continue to ask, she still won't answer, so you ask again . . . and again . . . and again.

Edited June 11, 2008 by Abigail

[rhino]

So your continued harassment is your response to your perception that she attacked you? Sheesh, I've called you worse things on these boards than anything she said in her posts to you and you haven't followed me around harassing me. So, I guess, in other words, I'm not buying your justification of your behavior. In the end, though, I guess it doesn't matter if I buy it or not. But its starting to look like maybe you simply have thing for Eyes and you know what they say - negative attention is better than no attention at all.

It is YOUR judgment that I have harassed and need to justify anything.

And the fact that other people are involved is why I want to get be sure the record is set straight.

To be more straight forward ... Eyes lied about me, though she did not name me. Then others talk about "those people will never be convinced no matter hard hard you try" or whatever.

Eyes didn't try at all, she did a hit and run on the other thread, then trash talked and lied about it on her thread. So I keep setting the record straight. If I am slandered or libeled (and hear doctrine I never heard in the Bible) then I have a right to respond. That is not harassment.

Eyes has never corrected her lie ... that she was attacked before she had a chance to give her view. And she was not attacked personally, her position on the thread was "attacked". Then she responded with her verses that seem thoroughly rebutted by jen-o. Then she left .. and claimed she was attacked ... not given a chance.

But we have made "progress" ... we've gone from eyes' book being about showing the Bible accepts homosexual acts as fine ... to her position that the Bible is flawed and hateful on this subject. And that double minded position is the root of this problem ... she could have said that at the start.

Instead we got that she was attacked without having a chance ... then that she refuses to reveal what is in her book ... and then others joined in supporting her against these hateful people.

I'm not sure that is the purpose of a support group. Maybe someone could pm her if they are her friend, and point out that she did make a false accusation, and has been dishonest about the content of her book. She respects God's Word, but the Bible is a hateful document?

Good grief .... and now you think I have a thing for eyes? Are you regressing to junior high now?

[rhino]

Eyes won't answer, you two continue to ask, she still won't answer, so you ask again . . . and again . . . and again.

I respond when the lies and accusations are repeated. I generally have not responded when someone else chimes in with their support against those hateful close minded people, unless I am addressed by them directly.

Perhaps a different thread with the starting point being that the Bible does say homosexual acts are wrong ... then ask the questions Bramble asked. How does that get applied in our society.

The same sex marriage thread was more of a double thread on Christians need to accept this, because it is right and God blesses it. So it did not really allow for Christians that do not believe it is "right".

I don't see hateful Christians, I see people calling Christians hateful and their beliefs hateful.

[Abigail]

To be more straight forward ... Eyes lied about me, though she did not name me. Then others talk about "those people will never be convinced no matter hard hard you try" or whatever.

If she didn't name you, how do you know she was even speaking of you? Unless of course, the shoe did fit???

[Bumpy]

If she didn't name you, how do you know she was even speaking of you? Unless of course, the shoe did fit???

NO SHOES ABI...PIES!!

[Abigail]

I'm game bump, but you have to go first. :P

[Bumpy]

I'm game bump, but you have to go first. :P

OK, but I'm bringing these America "presenters" out of the closet FIRST! Not many do I know...but You Do, booboo.

http://gawker.com/tag/Freeze-Frames/?i=395...eir-best-o-face

Not Fair Play for former Cultists TIED UP or DOWN in their TWI Childhood Quoting Chapter et Verse, BUT To STILL HIDE in Za Dark Closet in The Gay Middle Ages!!

[rhino]

If she didn't name you, how do you know she was even speaking of you? Unless of course, the shoe did fit???

She said not nice things about jen-o ... as jen-o has pointed out and eyes has ignored ... but I am the only one that came close to "attacking" her ... but it was because her book was brought up, and she was claiming some authority ... her professors or whatever .. and not wanting to parade around her credentials ... so since that is what her argument consisted of, I dealt with that. It was a response to her claim of having credentials, but not wanting to deal with the likes of us, in essence.

If an unbiased observer were to watch as bumpy took his socks off, you would find red or hot pink toe pollish ... not that there's anything wrong with that ... and don't ask me how I know ...

what do you really think he wants all those animals for?

there ... it is finished ...

[cman]

So what if she was speaking of you.

Sheesh, just drop it.

This is going no where.

This persecution of every damn words sucks.

You like this kind of communication? Rhino or any one here?

Gee whiz. Friggin move on.

Buy the book.

She ain't discussing it in this forum.

And I don't blame her one bit.

Slips of the tongue or mistakes or misunderstandings can't be overlooked?

For God's sake drop it.

This is not solving anything!

HAVE YOU NOTICED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[rhino]

This is not solving anything!

HAVE YOU NOTICED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

geee... I just said It is finished .. and now you come along ...

we did solve something,

we've established the Bible is a hateful document ...

and people that disagree with that are hateful people ...

did you notice that?

there .. now

It. Is. Finished.

[Bumpy]

If an unbiased observer were to watch as bumpy took his socks off, you would find red or hot pink toe pollish ... not that there's anything wrong with that ... and don't ask me how I know ...

It's aaah Gaga Got to be HOT...or it just ain't worth the trouble! But if You'All can debate it Forever and HIDE Behind Scripture, BUT NOT ADMIT You IS What You IS...SHAME ON YOU!! Now THAT has to BE Hypo-Critical!! No matter what Your American Culture Chock on the old Animal Farm You Want, Don't Hide Behind the Verse! <_<

IF You Can't Talk the Walk...then Just let it Go!

[cman]

I could care less what anyone said rhino.

I ain't following any of it. Or anyone.

I'm saying cease from this worthless conversation.

If you want to call it that.

I don't care what anyone calls it.

It is hurtful to ALL involved. In more then one way.

And I don't care if anyone agrees with me or not.

[Abigail]

It's aaah Gaga Got to be HOT...or it just ain't worth the trouble! But if You'All can debate it Forever and HIDE Behind Scripture, BUT NOT ADMIT You IS What You IS...SHAME ON YOU!! Now THAT has to BE Hypo-Critical!! No matter what Your American Culture Chock on the old Animal Farm You Want, Don't Hide Behind the Verse! <_<

IF You Can't Talk the Walk...then Just let it Go!

I prefer hooker red, myself.

[Bumpy]

And I don't care if anyone agrees with me or not.

NOT QUITE the right way to work on a forum unless you own it! If SEX Orientation bothers you so much, You might Change your Avatar Name... as Some might misconstrue the spell check and think differently?

[Bumpy]

I prefer hooker red, myself.

ABI! I really would like to meet you in that RED Little OutFit...Why don't we move over to another corner Away from those who feel a touch "offended" possibly by discussing other attitudes of SEXUAL Orientation!!

I JUST LOVE...HOT! RED LOW CUT LARGE PROTRUDING FEMALE EQUATIONS!!

[Abigail]

ABI! I really would like to meet you in that RED Little OutFit...Why don't we move over to another corner Away from those who feel a touch "offended" possibly by discussing other attitudes of SEXUAL Orientation!!

I JUST LOVE...HOT! RED LOW CUT LARGE PROTRUDING FEMALE EQUATIONS!!

Do you mind if Sushi joins us in that corner? While I may have the female parts, he looks maaavelous in the red dress!!!

[Bramble]

*Shrug* Never said the Bible was a hateful document.

The Bible can and has been interpreted in many different ways, some pretty ugly.

Sometimes people assume doctrine equals Biblical research, though that has not been the standard in these doctrinal forums for as long as I've been around here.

I am surprised that those who have the doctrinal answer to homosexuality can't or won't explain how their doctrine helps homosexuals.

What good is doctrine with out application?

[rhino]

Who is hiding behind any verse bumpy? I don't see any homosexuals here ... and don't see why they would be obligated to "come out" if they were here. I don't think they would be "attacked" for being homosexual if they did ... certainly not by me.

In this doctrinal forum thread ... no one is really offering verses. That issue is fairly well established.

I figured a joke about the animal farm or toenails would change the focus and end it ... oh well ... sorry

[Bumpy]

Who is hiding behind any verse bumpy? I don't see any homosexuals here ... and don't see why they would be obligated to "come out" if they were here. I don't think they would be "attacked" for being homosexual if they did ... certainly not by me.

In this doctrinal forum thread ... no one is really offering verses. That issue is fairly well established.

I figured a joke about the animal farm or toenails would change the focus and end it ... oh well ... sorry

I must have miss understood...I thought if you write a book or thesis, or support a position, biblical or Biblical or otherwise, be it homoSEXual or NOT... The least you would want to do is, support your position by saying...HEY, I AM GAY, LOVE GOD AND HIS WORD, AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT...etc, ETC. That's OK with me!

And if they can unload a few scriptures a long the way, well heck, so did VP!! :)