PBS television did an absolutely awesome documentary as part of its American Experience series about the entire story, from Jim Jones' first getting followers all the way to the mass suicides. It has tons of footage from those days, and many interviews.
The most chilling part of the story for me was the end, when they intered former followers, asking them if they still thought the group was a good idea. A few of them said yeah. See this link for more info. I don't know how the MSNBC documentary will stack up to the PBS show...to be honest, I don't see how anything can beat this PBS version.
So often when the subject of Jonestown comes up, the question that is raised is whether we could have gotten to the point of doing what the people at Jonestown did. It's a valid question, of course. But,in a sense, I think we had already gotten to that point in regards to our communal way of life and "group think". The question for me is whether upper leadership, such as VPW or LCM, might have taken a path similar to that of Jim Jones if the situation had presented itself. There is no way to know for certain. The parallels that exist in our way of life and theirs, though, are quite alarming.
...the only thing that stopped a "Jonestown incident" from happening in twi was that the leaders were enjoying their hedonistic lifestyles too much to end it with mass suicides...drambuie and young girls seemed more appetizing to Vic than squad cars and tear gas...
I just finished watching my recording of this documentary (skipping the commercials).
My primary impression, based on my experience in TWI and what I've read about how things went after I left, I believe that Wierwille never had a degree of psychopathology, including paranoia, that would have or could have caused a tragedy on the scale of Jonestown. However, the raving maniac that Martindale became, OTOH, if he had remained unrestrained, likely would have ended in some kind of tragic events.
The fact that the Allens had the audacity to launch a legal challenge to TWIs unethical and immoral (and unquestionably NOT founded in scripture) practices served to provide that necessary restraint on Martindale.
Without question, many people suffered various degrees of harm because of what did take place, but I'm most thankful that it never got worse, or as bad as it could and would have without TWI having been effectively challenged when it was by the Allens.
I wasn't going to watch this but decided to at the last moment.
I'm glad I did.
There were an amazing amount of parallels, although some specifics, like the final outcome, were obviously different. The real benefit to be gained from watching this is a better understanding of what motivated people to become initially involved, what motivated them to contribute to the daily mechanics of keeping it running, and what constraints made it so difficult to leave. Not all the constraints were physical. For instance,they were told that if they ever left, they would meet a tragic, violent death. (Grease spot by midnight?) One woman, who left before the big event, left behind a young son. When questioned about how any mother could leave behind her child, she explained that, by leaving him behind, she was trying to spare him a tragic ending. She, of course, had no way to know what the future held.
Often we see outsiders or people who chose to not participate in the in-residence programs express a bewilderment of how we could have stayed on and didn't simply voice opposition or leave when things weren't "right". I think this program can give some valuable insight into those questions.
If you are an outsider, a newer member of TWI who was not around for the earlier days or someone who was around but did not experience the communal living of the in-residence programs, this program can give you a whole new level of insight about the "TWI" that many of us experienced.
There seems to be a lot of unanswered questions in Jonestown.
There were no autopsies performed on the bodies in Guyana. Cause of death was not an issue. According to the Army.
The initial death Toll was 408. Then 913. American authorities first explained the discrepancy by saying that that the Giyanese "could not count" .
The story was then changed to that bodies were piled on top of each other. How could 408 bodies.82 of them children cover 505 other dead bodies?
It was theorized that 408 died and 700 fled into the jungle. Some of them were hunted down and brought back to the compound. There were supposedly 1100 people in Jonestown. 913 Died ,167 survived, 20 were unaccounted for.
Most of the Bodies were left to rot in the Jungle.
After a press conference, former Jones aide Michael Prokes went into a restroom and committed suicide after hearing of an audio tape that was in the possession of the FBI and CIA.
Jeanie and Al Mills, would be authors of a tell all book on the Jonestown massacre were found Murdered in their home.
More than 20 months after Leo Ryan was killed, his five adult children-two sons and three daughters-filed a lawsuit based on extensive investigation into what had precipitated their father's death.
The lawsuit charged that "the Jonestown Colony was infiltrated with agent(s) of the Central Intelligence Agency of the United States.
It alleged that Dwyer "as an agent and employee of the Central Intelligence Agency ... negligently, maliciously and intentionally withheld crucial information about the Jonestown Colony which would have prevented harm to Ryan."
It further charged that Dwyer "knowingly, intentionally and maliciously led The congressman into a trap at the Port Kaituma Air Strip, which cost Ryan his life."
The Ryan's' lawsuit was dismissed for reasons that have to date never been fully disclosed
There seems to be a lot of unanswered questions in Jonestown.
Bottom line -- what is YOUR point?
There's always, in the historical record of ANY significant event, going to be more details and issues than can easily be documented or summarized. What of relevance to the issue of religious cults are you presenting or suggesting?
I wasn't going to watch this but decided to at the last moment.
I'm glad I did.
There were an amazing amount of parallels, although some specifics, like the final outcome, were obviously different. The real benefit to be gained from watching this is a better understanding of what motivated people to become initially involved, what motivated them to contribute to the daily mechanics of keeping it running, and what constraints made it so difficult to leave. Not all the constraints were physical. For instance,they were told that if they ever left, they would meet a tragic, violent death. (Grease spot by midnight?) One woman, who left before the big event, left behind a young son. When questioned about how any mother could leave behind her child, she explained that, by leaving him behind, she was trying to spare him a tragic ending. She, of course, had no way to know what the future held.
Often we see outsiders or people who chose to not participate in the in-residence programs express a bewilderment of how we could have stayed on and didn't simply voice opposition or leave when things weren't "right". I think this program can give some valuable insight into those questions.
She also said after about 6 weeks when she got her mind straight she changed her opinion about her decision.
On the scene at Jonestown, Guyanese troops discovered a large cache of drugs, enough to drug the entire population of Georgetown, Guyana (well over 200,000) for more than a year. According to survivors, these were being used regularly "to control" a population of only 1,100 people. One footlocker contained 11,000 doses of thorazine, a dangerous tranquilizer. Drugs used in the testing for MK-ULTRA were found in abundance, including sodium pentathol (a truth serum), chloral hydrate (a hypnotic), demerol, thalium (confuses thinking), and many others. Schacht had supplies of haliopareael and largatil as well, two other major tranquilizers.
Sounds like physical restraint to me, as such not a parallels to non drugged choices to speak up.
Bottom line -- what is YOUR point?
There's always, in the historical record of ANY significant event, going to be more details and issues than can easily be documented or summarized. What of relevance to the issue of religious cults are you presenting or suggesting?
A CIA experiment is far different than a religous experiance, not even close in comparison.
If you are suggesting that TWI HQ was some sort of modern day Camelot, your efforts are futile. Too many people who actually lived there can offer a far more realistic observation of what it was really like.
If you are suggesting that TWI HQ was some sort of modern day Camelot, your efforts are futile. Too many people who actually lived there can offer a far more realistic observation of what it was really like.
I never suggested anything like that , that is your fabrication, what I said was the unanswered questions there are on a much smaller scale , in relation to the ones at Jonestown.
Personally, I find the CIA theory to be unbelievable. Any scientific experiment, in order to warrant validation, must follow a regulated protocol. In other words, you can't just toss various poisons to lab rats in some haphazard fashion and expect to draw conclusions that have any real value.
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cheranne
sick
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Shellon
913 People dead
:(
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WhiteDove
Maybe they will interview CIA agent Richard Dwyer
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Javajivey
PBS television did an absolutely awesome documentary as part of its American Experience series about the entire story, from Jim Jones' first getting followers all the way to the mass suicides. It has tons of footage from those days, and many interviews.
The most chilling part of the story for me was the end, when they intered former followers, asking them if they still thought the group was a good idea. A few of them said yeah. See this link for more info. I don't know how the MSNBC documentary will stack up to the PBS show...to be honest, I don't see how anything can beat this PBS version.
http://www.pbs.org/previews/amex-jonestown/
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waysider
So often when the subject of Jonestown comes up, the question that is raised is whether we could have gotten to the point of doing what the people at Jonestown did. It's a valid question, of course. But,in a sense, I think we had already gotten to that point in regards to our communal way of life and "group think". The question for me is whether upper leadership, such as VPW or LCM, might have taken a path similar to that of Jim Jones if the situation had presented itself. There is no way to know for certain. The parallels that exist in our way of life and theirs, though, are quite alarming.
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George Aar
And it occurs to me that the only real defense one has against such aberrations is REASON,
(something that religion is somewhat reluctant to encourage)...
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GrouchoMarxJr
...the only thing that stopped a "Jonestown incident" from happening in twi was that the leaders were enjoying their hedonistic lifestyles too much to end it with mass suicides...drambuie and young girls seemed more appetizing to Vic than squad cars and tear gas...
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cheranne
I saw part of that I wonder if it'll run again? It is hard to watch that for me.
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Rocky
It's due to premier on Sunday... I'm pretty sure MSNBC intends to run it many times.
including 4 times on Saturday Nov 15
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cheranne
thanks
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cheranne
Just moving this up for tonight.
Hear from Jim Jones' son
In 1978, more than 900 Americans in a group called Peoples Temple, led by Rev. Jim Jones, were poisoned by cyanide-laced punch in Jonestown, Guyana.
Share your memories of JonestownPreview the premiere
Web-exclusive: Click here to watch a sneak preview of the two-hour documentaryMore web-only content
Survivors speak
Three Peoples Temple members talk to NBC News not long after they escaped from Jonestown on the day of the massacre.
Producer's diary: Doing justice to Jonestown
Where did 'Drink the Kool-Aid' come from?ExplorePinned VideoMore
Video highlights
Profiles of the NBC newsmen killed at Jonestown
Video
1978 report on the suspected shooters
Documentaries
Video
NBC producer’s account of attacks
Documentaries
Video
An eyewitness account of massacre
Documentaries
Video
A mother’s excitement turns to horror
Documentaries
Video
Father searches for missing daughter
Documentaries
Video
Congressman Leo Ryan remembered
Documentaries
Video
Three Peoples Temple members who escaped massacre
Documentaries
Family members lost
Father searches for daughter missing at Jonestown
A grieving father searches for his daughter after the massacre at Jonestown.
Killed congressman
Congressman Leo Ryan remembered
Andrea Mitchell, NBC News, reports on the life of Congressman Leo Ryan, a California mayor.
More information
Jonestown Institute Web site
Get more information about the November 18, 1978 tragedy.
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Rocky
I just finished watching my recording of this documentary (skipping the commercials).
My primary impression, based on my experience in TWI and what I've read about how things went after I left, I believe that Wierwille never had a degree of psychopathology, including paranoia, that would have or could have caused a tragedy on the scale of Jonestown. However, the raving maniac that Martindale became, OTOH, if he had remained unrestrained, likely would have ended in some kind of tragic events.
The fact that the Allens had the audacity to launch a legal challenge to TWIs unethical and immoral (and unquestionably NOT founded in scripture) practices served to provide that necessary restraint on Martindale.
Without question, many people suffered various degrees of harm because of what did take place, but I'm most thankful that it never got worse, or as bad as it could and would have without TWI having been effectively challenged when it was by the Allens.
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cheranne
Unbelievable!
I had never seen this news but very briefly in 78(at that time I had put away all news ,magazines
etc like vpw said too and focused only on the word! I had just finished taking "the class"
I remember my parents freaking out and looking more closley what I was into,trying to warn me
of deception in cult groups and i thougth they were nuts!
It only made me more determined to get completely "sold out" to twi and quit college.go wow and
join the way corp.
In watching this tonight,it is very clear that Jim Jones didn't start out to be in what the end he was
and neither did vpw or okie boy .
However, spiritually bad seed was in the mix,making it worse and worse every year (red dawn big
red flag!)
Psychological Hoax(why so much defense )I think the Jonestown incident hit vpw a little tooooo close
to home as he gathered his chickens live at Emporia to remind them to STAND and having done all
Anyone still have that tape? It would be intresting to see it on paper here as vpee s spoken word.
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waysider
I wasn't going to watch this but decided to at the last moment.
I'm glad I did.
There were an amazing amount of parallels, although some specifics, like the final outcome, were obviously different. The real benefit to be gained from watching this is a better understanding of what motivated people to become initially involved, what motivated them to contribute to the daily mechanics of keeping it running, and what constraints made it so difficult to leave. Not all the constraints were physical. For instance,they were told that if they ever left, they would meet a tragic, violent death. (Grease spot by midnight?) One woman, who left before the big event, left behind a young son. When questioned about how any mother could leave behind her child, she explained that, by leaving him behind, she was trying to spare him a tragic ending. She, of course, had no way to know what the future held.
Often we see outsiders or people who chose to not participate in the in-residence programs express a bewilderment of how we could have stayed on and didn't simply voice opposition or leave when things weren't "right". I think this program can give some valuable insight into those questions.
If you are an outsider, a newer member of TWI who was not around for the earlier days or someone who was around but did not experience the communal living of the in-residence programs, this program can give you a whole new level of insight about the "TWI" that many of us experienced.
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WhiteDove
There seems to be a lot of unanswered questions in Jonestown.
There were no autopsies performed on the bodies in Guyana. Cause of death was not an issue. According to the Army.
The initial death Toll was 408. Then 913. American authorities first explained the discrepancy by saying that that the Giyanese "could not count" .
The story was then changed to that bodies were piled on top of each other. How could 408 bodies.82 of them children cover 505 other dead bodies?
It was theorized that 408 died and 700 fled into the jungle. Some of them were hunted down and brought back to the compound. There were supposedly 1100 people in Jonestown. 913 Died ,167 survived, 20 were unaccounted for.
Most of the Bodies were left to rot in the Jungle.
After a press conference, former Jones aide Michael Prokes went into a restroom and committed suicide after hearing of an audio tape that was in the possession of the FBI and CIA.
Jeanie and Al Mills, would be authors of a tell all book on the Jonestown massacre were found Murdered in their home.
More than 20 months after Leo Ryan was killed, his five adult children-two sons and three daughters-filed a lawsuit based on extensive investigation into what had precipitated their father's death.
The lawsuit charged that "the Jonestown Colony was infiltrated with agent(s) of the Central Intelligence Agency of the United States.
It alleged that Dwyer "as an agent and employee of the Central Intelligence Agency ... negligently, maliciously and intentionally withheld crucial information about the Jonestown Colony which would have prevented harm to Ryan."
It further charged that Dwyer "knowingly, intentionally and maliciously led The congressman into a trap at the Port Kaituma Air Strip, which cost Ryan his life."
The Ryan's' lawsuit was dismissed for reasons that have to date never been fully disclosed
Here
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waysider
Perhaps some unanswered questions in New Knoxville as well.
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WhiteDove
Perhaps there are on a smaller scale.
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Rocky
Bottom line -- what is YOUR point?
There's always, in the historical record of ANY significant event, going to be more details and issues than can easily be documented or summarized. What of relevance to the issue of religious cults are you presenting or suggesting?
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cheranne
The bodies of the dead were flown to Dover AFB,there is no question about the count.
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WhiteDove
She also said after about 6 weeks when she got her mind straight she changed her opinion about her decision.
On the scene at Jonestown, Guyanese troops discovered a large cache of drugs, enough to drug the entire population of Georgetown, Guyana (well over 200,000) for more than a year. According to survivors, these were being used regularly "to control" a population of only 1,100 people. One footlocker contained 11,000 doses of thorazine, a dangerous tranquilizer. Drugs used in the testing for MK-ULTRA were found in abundance, including sodium pentathol (a truth serum), chloral hydrate (a hypnotic), demerol, thalium (confuses thinking), and many others. Schacht had supplies of haliopareael and largatil as well, two other major tranquilizers.
Sounds like physical restraint to me, as such not a parallels to non drugged choices to speak up.
A CIA experiment is far different than a religous experiance, not even close in comparison.
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waysider
If you are suggesting that TWI HQ was some sort of modern day Camelot, your efforts are futile. Too many people who actually lived there can offer a far more realistic observation of what it was really like.
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WhiteDove
I never suggested anything like that , that is your fabrication, what I said was the unanswered questions there are on a much smaller scale , in relation to the ones at Jonestown.
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cheranne
You can review the FBI's summaries of the tapes at
http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/~remoore/jonestown/tapes/fbi.html.
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waysider
Personally, I find the CIA theory to be unbelievable. Any scientific experiment, in order to warrant validation, must follow a regulated protocol. In other words, you can't just toss various poisons to lab rats in some haphazard fashion and expect to draw conclusions that have any real value.
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