A book from the 1980's, "Men Who Hate Women and the Women Who Love Them." My friend was involved with one of those narcissie dudes. She was not married. She could not understand why she continued to hang on to him. She said this book really helped her. She finally broke away.
He never drank until long after I left the house then he was having after dinner drinks etc.
Please forgive me, did any of your grandparents or great grandparents drink? It just sounds so much like the way alcoholics behave. If it was in your family tree, traits could have been passed down. And, your propensity for choosing certain personality types could be a result of an adult child (grandchild, great-grandchild) of an alcoholic reaction because those people seem comfortable for you to be around .
It might be worth a shot to do some geneology homework...
Sorry. I'm not trying to "fix" you. It just came to mind and I kept going back and forth as to whether I should pm you or post it out here.
It was the times, it was only recently in the whole scheme of life that woman voted, smoked, were accepted at college earned equal wages. It is not an alcohol thing -- it was a social norm thing. Just a few years later and it seemed all the ladies were going to college and realized they could have life outside of being a "womb", cook or housekeeper
We are fortunate enough to see a bunch of old thinking disappear and change the world for future generations.
But regardless, the sociopath does know how to strike a chord on the person looking for the music. There are plenty of successful women who have been conned who did not have alcoholic parents, they just were too trusting.
BTW
The sociapath of whom I speak, did not drink either, but his "nationality" is very male dominated.
But I am speaking of sociapaths -- sweetheart swindlers -- dream weavers.
I am honest and direct. I am still caught off guard by deceit, intentional swindling, bait and switch -- the sociapaths who have walked beside us in life. I personally think VIC was one.
Did you have a line of drinkers in your family before VPW? I am sure some/many did.
Many of us were looking for family. Looking for love.
I believed I worked with a sociopath. He was extremely charming. That is how he sucked people in. He was hired to do a job he wasn't qualified for, but we were willing to train him. He contstantly was doing everything except what he was supposed to be learning. At his 3 month review, he wrote a memo to his supervisor telling her how he believed things could be changed in our office--things that weren't even related to the section in which he worked! Normally the probationary period is 6 months. His was extended 2 times for 3 months each. Finally after 1 year, he was off probation. That was a major sign, but my boss wanted to give him every benefit of the doubt....foolish.
This guy left about a month after his year to help his wife run the restaurant they started a few weeks prior. He came to me to shake my hand. I told him he shouldn't quit his job that he had a stable income and benefits which his family (they have a 5 year old daughter) would lose if he quit. He said "they" were after him. He meant the management. I told him he was wrong because he would have been let go during his probationary period if they were really after him.
His restaurant failed because he bombarded customers at the door with his political agendas. He decided to retaliate against my boss by running against him in the last election. My boss is a county elected official. The ex employee tried everything he could to ruin my boss' reputation. It didnt' work. My boss won the election with 67% of the votes.
I did research on this guy, and his name is all over the internet because of a lawsuit he filed against a previous employer. He distributed fliers to employees with disparaging comments about the corporation and the management. He was suspended and fired. He tried to get money out of them. It went all the way to the Supreme Court in Washington DC. They dropped the case. This wacko said it was because the corporation had ties in Washington.
In the meantime, this guy borrowed money from his credit card to fund his campaign. I got copies of his campaign reports. Nobody ever donated any money to his campaign. Today, he has lost his house. I saw the Treasurer's Deed recorded in the Recorder's website. He lost the space he rented for his restaurant for non-payment. He trashed the bulding the restaurant was in. Now he has the audacity to ask for investors to buy a building for his restaurant. In the meantime, the previous landlords are screwed out of the money he didn't pay along with the damages to the building. The restaurant was almost turnkey when he moved in, and it had been newly remodeled. The landlords are facing foreclosure on all of their properties because of the detriment this guy caused them.
Everywhere this guy goes, there is distruction and emotional turmoil. I hope he goes away now that he has no business or home here. He put his own ego and motives BEFORE his family and their well-being. I saw his son's myspace profile. His mother and sister are listed as his heroes. I think that speaks volumes. His dad boasts himself as a decorated Navy Pilot. I think it's a lie, but I couldn't get his military records to prove anything.
Here's some characteristics I saw online of a sociopath:
Profile of the Sociopath
This website summarizes some of the common features of descriptions of the behavior of sociopaths.
Glibness and Superficial Charm
Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.
Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."
Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.
Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.
Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.
Incapacity for Love
Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.
Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.
Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.
Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.
Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.
Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.
Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.
Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.
But regardless, the sociopath does know how to strike a chord on the person looking for the music. There are plenty of successful women who have been conned who did not have alcoholic parents, they just were too trusting.
Did you have a line of drinkers in your family before VPW? I am sure some/many did.
Many of us were looking for family. Looking for love.
I think people like him know that and exploit it.
No, my parents did not drink and I was never around it at home. And, yes, I have been duped by a sociopath as well, so I know it's not a pleasant feeling. In recent years, I've tried to identify things in me that would have caused me to fall for lines like that.
Twinky, I have failed me. I am sorting it all out.
Dot, you haven't failed you. We are all "a work in progress." You haven't quit, and you're still alive. Therefore you're still a work in progress. Keep on moving, babe!
BTW still haven't found that item you asked me about. But I keep looking.
There are some people out there who have no problem attracting the opposite sex to their lives. It seems that one person dated leaves and another is at the door almost the next day. OK, maybe it was 3 months. It seemed like the next day to me because I never seemed to get a new boyfriend lthat quickly.
Anywhoo. What I want to say is that if someone deliberately decides what they want in their mate and decides they will love their life no matter if the man/woman of their dreams comes, then they are in a better place for themselves. Taking this time allows you to consider your life and your dreams and what makes you happy. Then if another knock comes at the door, YOU make the decision where you want it to go.
You don't have to accept someone just because they seem interested in you. Some people think that they don't want to miss out on a chance at love, so they hook up with whomever seems attracted to them. Why hook up? Why not take time to just hang out to decide if you even want to be with that person? Doing this without the pressures of a relationship will help you see outside of the scenario more. And please don't ignore any red flags you see.
I have a good friend who has a boyfriend of 5 years. They've lived together for 4.5 of those years. I've heard her do nothing but complain. He is irresponsible with money. She decideds to stay with him even though this DRIVES her up the wall. She saw the red flags BEFORE he moved in. He borrowed money and didn't take responsibility to pay it back. It was thousands of dollars.
I told her it was a red flag she shouldn't forget. But she got involved anyway, and she seems unhappy about everything. The problem for her: he doesn't cheat on her or doesn't belittle her like her ex husband did. She accepts the money thing even though she doesn't realize how much she talks about it. I remind her. I also remind her how unhappy she sounds. She doesn't marry him because of this. Yet she doesn't want to move separately because it's too hard--like a divorce. Personally, I wouldn't want to be in that kind of relationship. I like her boyfriend, and I think he's a very approachable and likeable guy. I would not hook myself up with a guy who is clueless (uh oh, not THAT word again) about money and who refuses to understand why he needs to get up to speed about it. This guy isn't growing in his life. He constantly avoids issues that are uncomfortable.
If you are growing, you want somoene else who is growing also. None of us are perfect. But being likeable, nice or cute is not a reason to be with someone.
your posts always bring me much joy and sound reasoning.
about your friend who has a boyfriend who is irresponsible with money, I have a thought that may make many rather upset.
I think they are perfect for one another.
He may be irresponsible with money and yet she in turn is irresponsible with who she shares her life with, they share money by living together and as long as he is the one to blame for being irresponsible she does not really have to look at why she makes a "poor" choice in relationships.
WE can not change another , but we can influence and in 5 years she can not educate him to financial concern to her liking it speaks on her more than him .
he doesnt have a problem , she does. If she isnt willing to change her habits concerning money to his way of thinking then it is her issue with him.. and that is the core of what she needs to address.
Dot, I say this sincerely.. if you should come across a soul who actually loves and cares for who you are.. opens the door for you.. maybe even acts kinda flaky.. I hope you don't reject the guy just because he's NICE.
There are actually SOME of us in existence here who don't try to use "niceness" to control people..
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Dot Matrix
He never drank until long after I left the house then he was having after dinner drinks etc.
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kimberly
A book from the 1980's, "Men Who Hate Women and the Women Who Love Them." My friend was involved with one of those narcissie dudes. She was not married. She could not understand why she continued to hang on to him. She said this book really helped her. She finally broke away.
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waterbuffalo
Please forgive me, did any of your grandparents or great grandparents drink? It just sounds so much like the way alcoholics behave. If it was in your family tree, traits could have been passed down. And, your propensity for choosing certain personality types could be a result of an adult child (grandchild, great-grandchild) of an alcoholic reaction because those people seem comfortable for you to be around .
It might be worth a shot to do some geneology homework...
Sorry. I'm not trying to "fix" you. It just came to mind and I kept going back and forth as to whether I should pm you or post it out here.
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Dot Matrix
They were non-drinkers
It was the times, it was only recently in the whole scheme of life that woman voted, smoked, were accepted at college earned equal wages. It is not an alcohol thing -- it was a social norm thing. Just a few years later and it seemed all the ladies were going to college and realized they could have life outside of being a "womb", cook or housekeeper
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_suffrage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Rights_Amendment
We are fortunate enough to see a bunch of old thinking disappear and change the world for future generations.
But regardless, the sociopath does know how to strike a chord on the person looking for the music. There are plenty of successful women who have been conned who did not have alcoholic parents, they just were too trusting.
BTW
The sociapath of whom I speak, did not drink either, but his "nationality" is very male dominated.
But I am speaking of sociapaths -- sweetheart swindlers -- dream weavers.
I am honest and direct. I am still caught off guard by deceit, intentional swindling, bait and switch -- the sociapaths who have walked beside us in life. I personally think VIC was one.
Did you have a line of drinkers in your family before VPW? I am sure some/many did.
Many of us were looking for family. Looking for love.
I think people like him know that and exploit it.
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Nottawayfer
I believed I worked with a sociopath. He was extremely charming. That is how he sucked people in. He was hired to do a job he wasn't qualified for, but we were willing to train him. He contstantly was doing everything except what he was supposed to be learning. At his 3 month review, he wrote a memo to his supervisor telling her how he believed things could be changed in our office--things that weren't even related to the section in which he worked! Normally the probationary period is 6 months. His was extended 2 times for 3 months each. Finally after 1 year, he was off probation. That was a major sign, but my boss wanted to give him every benefit of the doubt....foolish.
This guy left about a month after his year to help his wife run the restaurant they started a few weeks prior. He came to me to shake my hand. I told him he shouldn't quit his job that he had a stable income and benefits which his family (they have a 5 year old daughter) would lose if he quit. He said "they" were after him. He meant the management. I told him he was wrong because he would have been let go during his probationary period if they were really after him.
His restaurant failed because he bombarded customers at the door with his political agendas. He decided to retaliate against my boss by running against him in the last election. My boss is a county elected official. The ex employee tried everything he could to ruin my boss' reputation. It didnt' work. My boss won the election with 67% of the votes.
I did research on this guy, and his name is all over the internet because of a lawsuit he filed against a previous employer. He distributed fliers to employees with disparaging comments about the corporation and the management. He was suspended and fired. He tried to get money out of them. It went all the way to the Supreme Court in Washington DC. They dropped the case. This wacko said it was because the corporation had ties in Washington.
In the meantime, this guy borrowed money from his credit card to fund his campaign. I got copies of his campaign reports. Nobody ever donated any money to his campaign. Today, he has lost his house. I saw the Treasurer's Deed recorded in the Recorder's website. He lost the space he rented for his restaurant for non-payment. He trashed the bulding the restaurant was in. Now he has the audacity to ask for investors to buy a building for his restaurant. In the meantime, the previous landlords are screwed out of the money he didn't pay along with the damages to the building. The restaurant was almost turnkey when he moved in, and it had been newly remodeled. The landlords are facing foreclosure on all of their properties because of the detriment this guy caused them.
Everywhere this guy goes, there is distruction and emotional turmoil. I hope he goes away now that he has no business or home here. He put his own ego and motives BEFORE his family and their well-being. I saw his son's myspace profile. His mother and sister are listed as his heroes. I think that speaks volumes. His dad boasts himself as a decorated Navy Pilot. I think it's a lie, but I couldn't get his military records to prove anything.
Here's some characteristics I saw online of a sociopath:
Profile of the Sociopath
This website summarizes some of the common features of descriptions of the behavior of sociopaths.
Glibness and Superficial Charm
Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.
Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."
Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.
Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.
Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.
Incapacity for Love
Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.
Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.
Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.
Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.
Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.
Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.
Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.
Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Other Related Qualities:
Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
Authoritarian
Secretive
Paranoid
Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
Conventional appearance
Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life
Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
Incapable of real human attachment to another
Unable to feel remorse or guilt
Extreme narcissism and grandiose
May state readily that their goal is to rule the world
(The above traits are based on the psychopathy checklists of H. Cleckley and R. Hare.)
Edited by NottawayferLink to comment
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waterbuffalo
No, my parents did not drink and I was never around it at home. And, yes, I have been duped by a sociopath as well, so I know it's not a pleasant feeling. In recent years, I've tried to identify things in me that would have caused me to fall for lines like that.
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Dot Matrix
Notta -- WOW
WB - So, you think having an alcoholic relative sets one up for the sociapath -- or the alcoholic is the sociapath?
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waterbuffalo
Yes and yes.
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Twinky
Dot, you haven't failed you. We are all "a work in progress." You haven't quit, and you're still alive. Therefore you're still a work in progress. Keep on moving, babe!
BTW still haven't found that item you asked me about. But I keep looking.
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Nottawayfer
There are some people out there who have no problem attracting the opposite sex to their lives. It seems that one person dated leaves and another is at the door almost the next day. OK, maybe it was 3 months. It seemed like the next day to me because I never seemed to get a new boyfriend lthat quickly.
Anywhoo. What I want to say is that if someone deliberately decides what they want in their mate and decides they will love their life no matter if the man/woman of their dreams comes, then they are in a better place for themselves. Taking this time allows you to consider your life and your dreams and what makes you happy. Then if another knock comes at the door, YOU make the decision where you want it to go.
You don't have to accept someone just because they seem interested in you. Some people think that they don't want to miss out on a chance at love, so they hook up with whomever seems attracted to them. Why hook up? Why not take time to just hang out to decide if you even want to be with that person? Doing this without the pressures of a relationship will help you see outside of the scenario more. And please don't ignore any red flags you see.
I have a good friend who has a boyfriend of 5 years. They've lived together for 4.5 of those years. I've heard her do nothing but complain. He is irresponsible with money. She decideds to stay with him even though this DRIVES her up the wall. She saw the red flags BEFORE he moved in. He borrowed money and didn't take responsibility to pay it back. It was thousands of dollars.
I told her it was a red flag she shouldn't forget. But she got involved anyway, and she seems unhappy about everything. The problem for her: he doesn't cheat on her or doesn't belittle her like her ex husband did. She accepts the money thing even though she doesn't realize how much she talks about it. I remind her. I also remind her how unhappy she sounds. She doesn't marry him because of this. Yet she doesn't want to move separately because it's too hard--like a divorce. Personally, I wouldn't want to be in that kind of relationship. I like her boyfriend, and I think he's a very approachable and likeable guy. I would not hook myself up with a guy who is clueless (uh oh, not THAT word again) about money and who refuses to understand why he needs to get up to speed about it. This guy isn't growing in his life. He constantly avoids issues that are uncomfortable.
If you are growing, you want somoene else who is growing also. None of us are perfect. But being likeable, nice or cute is not a reason to be with someone.
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pond
notawafer
your posts always bring me much joy and sound reasoning.
about your friend who has a boyfriend who is irresponsible with money, I have a thought that may make many rather upset.
I think they are perfect for one another.
He may be irresponsible with money and yet she in turn is irresponsible with who she shares her life with, they share money by living together and as long as he is the one to blame for being irresponsible she does not really have to look at why she makes a "poor" choice in relationships.
WE can not change another , but we can influence and in 5 years she can not educate him to financial concern to her liking it speaks on her more than him .
he doesnt have a problem , she does. If she isnt willing to change her habits concerning money to his way of thinking then it is her issue with him.. and that is the core of what she needs to address.
why does she stay?
people blame others for not growing up.
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Ham
Dot, I say this sincerely.. if you should come across a soul who actually loves and cares for who you are.. opens the door for you.. maybe even acts kinda flaky.. I hope you don't reject the guy just because he's NICE.
There are actually SOME of us in existence here who don't try to use "niceness" to control people..
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