Slowly, ever so slowly I have moved away from pre-millennialism because of the things that I have seen in the Scriptures themselves. You can see current events in the book of Revelations or things that have been in progress for some time and realize that most likely we've already been in this triulation...maybe not the BIG ONE, but the birth pangs so to speak.
As I understand them-and I can lay it out verse by verse when I have time-
the order of events goes as follows:
1) right now
2) the Blessed Hope, aka the Rapture, aka our
Gathering Together unto him
(which leaves everyone on Earth who is living but not born again)
3) the Tribulation (7 years, includes many events, outlined in Revelation, including the Great Tribulation,
and the Day of God's Wrath of Revelation 6)
4) the Glorious Appearing (Revelation 19)- the first VISIBLE appearance of Jesus to Earth since the Ascension,
accompanies by those of the Blessed Hope/Rapture & various angels
5) A big fight immediately follows.
6) The Resurrection of the Just, aka the First Resurrection, aka the better Resurrection, aka the Resurrection of Life.
That's when all those "righteous" not Born Again are selected out. (Like the saints of the Tribulation,
and John the Baptist, and the Old Testament saints, and so on.)
(Early Revelation 20.)
7) The imprisonment of the devil for 1000 years.
8) 1000 years later, the devil is released, and the last battle occurs, ending with the Lake of Fire.
9) After the battle comes the Second Resurrection, aka, the Resurrection of the Unjustified, aka the Resurrection of Judgement.
At that time, the last of those selected by God are gathered, and those NOT selected by God are gathered,
and the unrighteous get destroyed in the Lake of Fire, while the righteous are NOT.
10) The new Heaven and New Earth of Revelation 21 and so on.
In none of those events do I see us remaining permanently in Heaven. We stop there during the Tribulation and
Day of Wrath, but otherwise accompany Jesus. He seems to relocate to the new Earth. If that's where he is, then that's where
we are.
This all became a lot clearer to me when I made two realizations:
A) One verse in the Gospels that calls one Resurrection the Resurrection of LIFE, and the other the Resurrection of DAMNATION.
HOWEVER, the Greek word is the same Greek word translated JUDGEMENT in other verses. Some translator decided to render
"judgement" as "condemnation" in some places, and "damnation" in other places, deciding by himself what those judgements
would render. Once I saw that, I made the second realization.
B) The Gathering Together/Blessed Hope/Rapture is very different from either Resurrection.
The First Resurrection is very different from the Second Resurrection.
In the GT/BH/R, there is "judgement", but no one's life is hazarded-their reward is at stake.
In the First Resurrection, the "judgement" is similar (the other circumstances differ greatly.)
In the Second Resurrection, the "judgement" is a full "judgement", with examination of the deeds of most of humanity,
and actual decisions as to their dispositions are made.
(Read the 2nd half of Revelation 20 for a pretty straightforward description.)
Those who are judged unworthy are destroyed in the Lake of Fire.
Those who are judged worthy (remember, they weren't born again and weren't saints of the Tribulation or the OT)
are called righteous and enter into a kingdom....
DESPITE NOT BEING BELIEVERS IN CHRIST OR YHWH.
Preposterous, you say.
Matthew 25:31-46.
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
=============
That's NOT the GT/BH/R.
THIS is the GT/BH/R judgement:
I Corinthians 3:10-15.
10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
It's not the First Resurrection, because Revelation 20:4-6 shows no DIVISION, and all the First Resurrection members
are exempted from the Lake of Fire ("the second death.")
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The only Resurrection with ANY split is the Second Resurrection, which is why it's the Resurrection of JUDGEMENT.
Revelation 20:11-15.
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
If they "pass" it's because of "their works".
That's EXACTLY what Matthew 25 said, and it elaborated on that.
Revelation 21:1-4.
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
I cannot now imagine why I haven't looked at this thread till now. But I am looking forward to seeing what developes.
What do I think of "The Donkey"!? I went to the "contact page" and found that it was not really a contact page at all. And "The Donkey" said that there was one of two reasons anybody would click the contact page at all, but in all honesty Donkey was completely wrong about me. I clicked the contact page to continue to look and evaluate the site. And to be perfectly blunt, Donky's listing it as a contact page was not true and neither of his reasons for me clicking on that page were true either. So in just his/her contact page I am certain that donkey was both misleading and mistaken.
But even though I do not believe that someone who is misleading and mistaken on their contact page has any business taking such an aggressive tone with much of anybody, I do believe the issues are good to consider.
And even though I now believe that the gathering and the resurrection are the same events and not similar events as Wierwille taught, I will be happy to see what developes, especially with Mr. Wordwolf around to go through these things with. But this is just off the top of my head.
I think I should do a little reading and thinking now. I might even write down a scripture reference or two myself.
Ok. My points, I think, are easy to track from Scripture.
First of all, reincarnation is dismissed, in case anyone asks.
Hebrews 9:27.
NIV.
27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
NASB.
27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
KJV.
27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Death ONCE, then judgement.
If one just reads this, it's easy to see how some people ended up with the doctrine that judgement
for each person IMMEDIATELY follows that person's death.
The one catch, of course, is that Scripture shows judgement occurring for lots of people at once,
and that all in the future, NOT one at a time at each person's death.
It does not say "IMMEDIATELY after this the judgment" or "IMMEDIATELY after this comes judgment".
In the absence of an explanation that outlines judgment much later, an IMMEDIATE judgment remains
a possibility. However, the outlining of the judgments clearly show them as future events.
No matter if you think the Christians are in the First Resurrection, or if you think they precede it in
a "Rapture", they're still judged in the future.
This should not be a major surprise to most regulars here, but it WOULD shock a lot of people.
I operate under a few basic assumptions, when studying the Day of Judgment.
The first is that each person will be judged ONCE, and be exempt from any later judgments as a result.
(Other assumptions center around the usual- the Bible is accurate, the translators make mistakes but
the originals lacked mistakes, etc.)
=============
Now, then, I make GREAT exception over the inconsistent translation-at least in the KJV where I studied it out-
of the Greek words "krima" and "krisis". Both words are virtually interchangeable as "judgment."
However, they are not translated CONSISTENTLY (at least in the KJV.)
Sometimes they are translated "judgment", sometimes "condemnation", sometimes "damnation."
Now, those are words that have VERY different meanings.
"Judgment" can be FOR a person or AGAINST a person. The word "judgment" does not indicate the direction of a verdict.
"Condemnation" means a judgment was made, a verdict was rendered-AGAINST the person.
"Damnation" is even stronger than "condemnation", the ULTIMATE verdict was rendered AGAINST the person.
In the interest of clarity, there should be ONE word in English for ONE word in Greek. (In this case, for BOTH words in Greek, actually.)
That it should be "judgment" and not "condemnation" nor "damnation" is clear when seen in this verse:
Romans 11:33
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
"Condemnation" could not fit in this sentence, nor could "damnation."
But it's the same Greek word as in verse 29 here:
John 5:28-29.
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
As the translators rendered this, the good people go to the resurrection of life-and presumably live,
and the bad people go to the resurrection of damnation-and presumably suffer an eternal punishment- destruction, eternal flame, whatever your theology claims.
However, repair the translator's error, and the resurrections become "life" and "judgment",
which are not opposite words.
The translator let his doctrine affect his work. But we can repair that easily enough, if we dare to.
The problem then becomes the doctrines based on the translational errors- the expectation that the second resurrection
equalled damnation for the attendees. When one reads the actual account of it, however, that is not what it says.
=====================
For the first of the events, as I see them, we look at the "Rapture", the Blessed Hope, our gathering together unto him.
Right now, things are as they are now. You need no verses to tell you what it's like now.
Things will change, however, at a point in the future. What changes them, and how do they change?
KJV
II Thessalonians 2:3-4
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
"A falling away". "Ha apostasia." Literally, "a moving away from."
Some people say it's a negative movement, and transliterated it "apostasy."
Some people say it's a positive movement, and translated it "departure." (twi did, anyway.)
Frankly, it doesn't really matter WHICH you render it, since there's 2 events simultaneous to each other,
one is an apostasy, one is a departure.
II Thessalonians 2:7
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
The "apostasy", the rise of the Man of Sins, the Son of Perdition, ("the anti-Christ") can't happen while God's Protection prevents it.
The thing is, God's Protection is on THE CHRISTIANS.
Remove all the Christians from the planet at once, (in a "Rapture", say), and God's Protection goes with them,
leaving the planet unprotected, which would permit the rise of evil and the beginning of the End Times.
============
This has happened before, on a much smaller scale......
Genesis 19. The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.
The cities were so wicked, they were slated for destruction- except for Lot, the only righteous man in TWO cities.
Lot was told the cities were going to be destroyed for their wickedness. He was told to leave immediately, and to make
his family leave immediately.
It's pretty straightforward. Until you read verse 22.
15And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.
16And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.
17And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.
18And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my LORD:
19Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:
20Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.
21And he said unto him, See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow this city, for the which thou hast spoken.
22Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do anything till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.
God's Protection was on Lot. As soon as Lot left the cities, they were given over to destruction.
======================
I Corinthians 15:51-54
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
I Thessalonians 4:13-17
(KJV)
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(NASB)
13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
I consider the end, "so we shall always be with the Lord" to be of critical importance in understanding the events to come.
From the time of the fulfillment of that verse onward, we will be with Jesus. Where he is, we are. Where we are, he is.
=================
I'm sure lots of people are still convinced that WE don't go anywhere until the First Resurrection.
That's all the way in Revelation 20, after Jesus returns dramatically and delivers a major smackdown at the end of Revelation 19.
Of course, it's also after all the events of Revelation 1-19.
I'd like to mention "wrath" for a moment.
Romans 5:9
KJV
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
NASB
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
I Thessalonians 1:10
KJV
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
NASB
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.
I Thessalonians 5:9
KJV
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
NASB
For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
=====
What is "the wrath to come"?
It's in Revelation. The early chapters are warnings, and announcements of things that will shortly come to pass.
Events begin happening with the breaking of the seals- those begin in Revelation 6.
KJV
1And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
3And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
5And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
7And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
==========
NASB
1Then I saw when the Lamb broke one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, "Come."
2I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
3When He broke the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, "Come."
4And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.
5When He broke the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, "Come " I looked, and behold, a black horse; and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand.
6And I heard something like a voice in the center of the four living creatures saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not damage the oil and the wine."
7When the Lamb broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, "Come."
8I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.
9When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
12I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood;
13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.
14The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains;
16and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
17for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
=============
Terrifying things happen- conquest, slaughter, famine, pestilence, earthquakes, and more.
It's "THE WRATH OF THE LAMB", "THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH."
Am I concerned about living through it? Not a bit.
I'm saved from wrath, I'm delivered from wrath, I'm not appointed to wrath.
Now, those people who expect Christians to live through "the Tribulation" and not be "Raptured" are welcome to compose any
theory they like on how they can be saved from earthquakes, etc while living through them,
or find some other event and call that "wrath" as well. (I haven't found another future "wrath", so I don't give good odds
for finding another event CALLED "wrath.")
To me, the most logical reason we're not appointed to suffer through the day of wrath is that we aren't here at all-
We are gathered together out of here, the Protection of God leaves the Earth, the Man of Sins is revealed,
and the End Times proceed. The day of wrath happens, and is finished before we return years later
(at the end of Revelation 19, still with Jesus as he returns to Earth to open up a tremendous can of whupass
I will go over what you are saying. I am currently working all this with a Bapacostal minister who believes the 1000 thing was placed in scripture via a priest and it did not belong there. This Bapacostal is a research type as well--- I am not. I learn it then being an evangelist type I go out and tell the world. So, the parable of the tares - where they are removed FIRST was the first time I ever saw ANYTHING other than I am sitting here waiting for the rapture.
He says there are two events as well. The tares and their deal - then us and ours and it centers around judgment.
He is still unclear on the lake of hell fire and believes that there may not be a place they go with continued torment -- but the torment is that they are never to go into heaven. The permanent separation. That is where we are, except that we are looking into "body - soul - and spirit" and he it relates to who has what judgment.
I will go over what you are saying. I am currently working all this with a Bapacostal minister who believes the 1000 thing was placed in scripture via a priest and it did not belong there. This Bapacostal is a research type as well--- I am not. I learn it then being an evangelist type I go out and tell the world. So, the parable of the tares - where they are removed FIRST was the first time I ever saw ANYTHING other than I am sitting here waiting for the rapture.
As I understand it, the only time the "tares" thing CAN refer to is "the end of the world", the latter half of Revelation 20,
AFTER the 1000 years, AFTER the Resurrection of the Just, AFTER the Tribulation, AFTER the "Rapture."
(Rapture, then 7 years of Tribulation, then the First Resurrection, then the Millenial Reign of Christ, THEN the Second Resurrection.)
The Second Resurrection is "the end of the world" because Revelation 21 shows the next thing- the New Heaven,
New Earth, and New Jerusalem all debut. The world that WAS is no longer.
(As I understand it, any "old" Earth gets recycled into any "new" Earth. It's on the same location, using the same materials,
but it's a new design, and newly constructed.)
The Second Resurrection is when the "sheep"/"wheat" and the "goats"/"tares" are separated from each other.
The sheep/wheat get entry into the kingdom, the goats/tares get destroyed in the lake of fire.
He says there are two events as well. The tares and their deal - then us and ours and it centers around judgment.
He is still unclear on the lake of hell fire and believes that there may not be a place they go with continued torment -- but the torment is that they are never to go into heaven. The permanent separation. That is where we are, except that we are looking into "body - soul - and spirit" and he it relates to who has what judgment.
(THREE events.) Ours is the FIRST of THREE, not the LAST of TWO.
It's natural to be fuzzy on final disposition because there's something I don't have the details of, either.
The "tares" will be destroyed in the lake of fire.
HOWEVER,
In the last 2 chapters of Revelation, we find some people were punished by being prohibited from entering New Jerusalem,
and there's some business about "the outer darkness" that I don't understand yet.
If I were pressed to GUESS about them, my GUESS would be that those people are the born-again Christians
who earned punishment and squandered the gift of eternal life. I'm NOT certain about that at all. My honest
I will go over what you are saying. I am currently working all this with a Bapacostal minister who believes the 1000 thing was placed in scripture via a priest and it did not belong there. This Bapacostal is a research type as well--- I am not. I learn it then being an evangelist type I go out and tell the world. So, the parable of the tares - where they are removed FIRST was the first time I ever saw ANYTHING other than I am sitting here waiting for the rapture.
He says there are two events as well. The tares and their deal - then us and ours and it centers around judgment.
He is still unclear on the lake of hell fire and believes that there may not be a place they go with continued torment -- but the torment is that they are never to go into heaven. The permanent separation. That is where we are, except that we are looking into "body - soul - and spirit" and he it relates to who has what judgment.
Edited for typos
Dear Dot,
As I've considered this matter over the last few days I've realized that as your Bapacostal minister friend I am challenged with the whole concept of the 1000 years between the two resurrections in Rev. ch. 20.
And even though I am anxious to dig into Wordwolf's posts I feel this point of yours is too huge to bypass.
An tremendous amount of speculation and supposition has been made over this "1000 year reign" of Christ with his saints for centuries. And much of our more recent considerations; in the movies even; have been built upon these verses.
If they are an addition to the text that simplifies an awful lot for me. But I will not permit things being easier for me to determine all by itself to persuade me as it pertains to the issues of whether or not it is a legitimate part of the scriptures. I'd rather admit that I do not understand something than ignorantly refuse any scripture.
But this particular issue seems huge to me. Without these verses being genuine, well, frankly, an awful lot of future speculation can be quickly eliminated from our consideration. And it would IMO quickly revolutionize much fundamentalist theology. If your minister friend has anything more than his own reasoning to go on as it pertains to these scriptures I would absolutely be interested to hear or read it.
But in the mean time it seems to me that their is a lot of good things to consider here that, God willing, we may be able to gain some ground in.
(Edited for spelling and grammar)
P.s.
I am currently giving the sites that you show in post #3 a look-see. A lot of info is their as it relates to your pastor friend's views Dot. Anyhoo, I'm a lookin.
Ok. My points, I think, are easy to track from Scripture.
First of all, reincarnation is dismissed, in case anyone asks.
Hebrews 9:27.
NIV.
27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
NASB.
27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
KJV.
27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
That sounds good to me Wordwolf. And while there are doubtlessly many scriptures that could speak directly to the biblical view of reincarnation one of my favorites that seem to bring a bit of gritty realism to the discussion is:
Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,&10 (KJV)
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with all thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."
Death ONCE, then judgement.
If one just reads this, it's easy to see how some people ended up with the doctrine that judgement
for each person IMMEDIATELY follows that person's death.
The one catch, of course, is that Scripture shows judgement occurring for lots of people at once,
and that all in the future, NOT one at a time at each person's death.
It does not say "IMMEDIATELY after this the judgment" or "IMMEDIATELY after this comes judgment".
In the absence of an explanation that outlines judgment much later, an IMMEDIATE judgment remains
a possibility. However, the outlining of the judgments clearly show them as future events.
No matter if you think the Christians are in the First Resurrection, or if you think they precede it in
a "Rapture", they're still judged in the future.
What I am heavily considering in this topic is to be wary of speculation. It is one thing to read a verse and say, "Since this is so then I think this fits too." vs. "The scriptures plainly state this". I hope the sentiment is clear anyway.
This should not be a major surprise to most regulars here, but it WOULD shock a lot of people.
I think you may be right on that point. But what can we do but seek to handle the scriptures honestly no matter people's reactions.
I operate under a few basic assumptions, when studying the Day of Judgment.
The first is that each person will be judged ONCE, and be exempt from any later judgments as a result.
(Other assumptions center around the usual- the Bible is accurate, the translators make mistakes but
the originals lacked mistakes, etc.)
Sounds good to me
=============
Now, then, I make GREAT exception over the inconsistent translation-at least in the KJV where I studied it out-
of the Greek words "krima" and "krisis". Both words are virtually interchangeable as "judgment."
However, they are not translated CONSISTENTLY (at least in the KJV.)
Sometimes they are translated "judgment", sometimes "condemnation", sometimes "damnation."
Now, those are words that have VERY different meanings.
"Judgment" can be FOR a person or AGAINST a person. The word "judgment" does not indicate the direction of a verdict.
"Condemnation" means a judgment was made, a verdict was rendered-AGAINST the person.
"Damnation" is even stronger than "condemnation", the ULTIMATE verdict was rendered AGAINST the person.
I haven't worked this yet, but it seems clear enough to hear you say it.
In the interest of clarity, there should be ONE word in English for ONE word in Greek. (In this case, for BOTH words in Greek, actually.)
That it should be "judgment" and not "condemnation" nor "damnation" is clear when seen in this verse:
Romans 11:33
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
"Condemnation" could not fit in this sentence, nor could "damnation."
But it's the same Greek word as in verse 29 here:
John 5:28-29.
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
As the translators rendered this, the good people go to the resurrection of life-and presumably live,
and the bad people go to the resurrection of damnation-and presumably suffer an eternal punishment- destruction, eternal flame, whatever your theology claims.
However, repair the translator's error, and the resurrections become "life" and "judgment",
which are not opposite words.
The translator let his doctrine affect his work. But we can repair that easily enough, if we dare to.
The problem then becomes the doctrines based on the translational errors- the expectation that the second resurrection
equalled damnation for the attendees. When one reads the actual account of it, however, that is not what it says.
=====================
For the first of the events, as I see them, we look at the "Rapture", the Blessed Hope, our gathering together unto him.
Well said WW, and while we differ on this at this point I am enjoying the read.
Right now, things are as they are now. You need no verses to tell you what it's like now.
Things will change, however, at a point in the future. What changes them, and how do they change?
KJV
II Thessalonians 2:3-4
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
"A falling away". "Ha apostasia." Literally, "a moving away from."
Some people say it's a negative movement, and transliterated it "apostasy."
Some people say it's a positive movement, and translated it "departure." (twi did, anyway.)
Frankly, it doesn't really matter WHICH you render it, since there's 2 events simultaneous to each other,
one is an apostasy, one is a departure.
II Thessalonians 2:7
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
The "apostasy", the rise of the Man of Sins, the Son of Perdition, ("the anti-Christ") can't happen while God's Protection prevents it.
The thing is, God's Protection is on THE CHRISTIANS.
Remove all the Christians from the planet at once, (in a "Rapture", say), and God's Protection goes with them,
leaving the planet unprotected, which would permit the rise of evil and the beginning of the End Times.
============
The way I see it as you share it is the some are protected from God's wrath. So while there is still much to consider I feel that God's wrath is equivalent to destruction. And while tribulation is intense, it is entirely different than destruction. In a few epistle scriptures we are even promised tribulation. And while that might not be the same as the "Great Tribulation" that the Lord spoke of, it still is not the same thing as destruction either. So while the scriptures plainly say that we are saved from wrath though him, I do not think it says that we are saved from tribulation, even the "Great tribulation". Frankly, the Lord told his disciples that if those days were not to be shortened that no flesh would be saved.
This has happened before, on a much smaller scale......
Genesis 19. The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.
The cities were so wicked, they were slated for destruction- except for Lot, the only righteous man in TWO cities.
Lot was told the cities were going to be destroyed for their wickedness. He was told to leave immediately, and to make
his family leave immediately.
It's pretty straightforward. Until you read verse 22.
15And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.
16And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.
17And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.
18And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my LORD:
19Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:
20Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.
21And he said unto him, See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow this city, for the which thou hast spoken.
22Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do anything till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.
God's Protection was on Lot. As soon as Lot left the cities, they were given over to destruction.
======================
I Corinthians 15:51-54
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
That whole 'last trump' business seems key to me. The seventh trumpet in the book of Revelation follows six pretty intense trumpets and no small trouble for human kind in general. But the wrath of God seems to me to be part of the events concerning the seventh trump.
I Thessalonians 4:13-17
(KJV)
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(NASB)
13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
I consider the end, "so we shall always be with the Lord" to be of critical importance in understanding the events to come.
From the time of the fulfillment of that verse onward, we will be with Jesus. Where he is, we are. Where we are, he is.
=================
I'm sure lots of people are still convinced that WE don't go anywhere until the First Resurrection.
That's all the way in Revelation 20, after Jesus returns dramatically and delivers a major smackdown at the end of Revelation 19.
Of course, it's also after all the events of Revelation 1-19.
I'd like to mention "wrath" for a moment.
Romans 5:9
KJV
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
NASB
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
I Thessalonians 1:10
KJV
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
NASB
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.
I Thessalonians 5:9
KJV
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
NASB
For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
=====
What is "the wrath to come"?
It's in Revelation. The early chapters are warnings, and announcements of things that will shortly come to pass.
Events begin happening with the breaking of the seals- those begin in Revelation 6.
KJV
1And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
3And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
5And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
7And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
==========
NASB
1Then I saw when the Lamb broke one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, "Come."
2I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
3When He broke the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, "Come."
4And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.
5When He broke the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, "Come " I looked, and behold, a black horse; and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand.
6And I heard something like a voice in the center of the four living creatures saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not damage the oil and the wine."
7When the Lamb broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, "Come."
8I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.
9When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
12I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood;
13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.
14The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains;
16and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
17for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
=============
Terrifying things happen- conquest, slaughter, famine, pestilence, earthquakes, and more.
It's "THE WRATH OF THE LAMB", "THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH."
Am I concerned about living through it? Not a bit.
I'm saved from wrath, I'm delivered from wrath, I'm not appointed to wrath.
Now, those people who expect Christians to live through "the Tribulation" and not be "Raptured" are welcome to compose any
theory they like on how they can be saved from earthquakes, etc while living through them,
or find some other event and call that "wrath" as well. (I haven't found another future "wrath", so I don't give good odds
for finding another event CALLED "wrath.")
To me, the most logical reason we're not appointed to suffer through the day of wrath is that we aren't here at all-
We are gathered together out of here, the Protection of God leaves the Earth, the Man of Sins is revealed,
and the End Times proceed. The day of wrath happens, and is finished before we return years later
(at the end of Revelation 19, still with Jesus as he returns to Earth to open up a tremendous can of whupass
on the Man of Sins and all of his.
Dear Dot and Wordwolf,
I am facing my limitations right now and here it is in a nutshell.
I have very limited computer time and I cannot spend enough time on the computer to analyze your posts, let alone the other sites that you both gave us links too. But with the limited time I have left I will do my best to write this info down so that over the rest of this weekend I can put together a more thorough and thoughtful response. Everything so far was off the top of my head as this is the first chance I have had to really look at your posts.
For the rest of the weekend it'll just be my list that hopefully do a good job of covering the content of your posts and my Bible and concordance. it seems like a very huge topic and I hope to God that we may due this topic justice.
Take care and God bless.
JEFF
(added in editing)
Hooray, I just figured out how to print this topic.
I am hurting too much to go to work today, and I am noit sure how long I'll be able to bear this. But it doesn't seem too much different sitting at the library vs. sitting at home. Here goes......
Dear Dot,
Going back to your first post where you asked us what we think about the donkey.
The donkey took one parable and built quite an aggressive sharing based on that. And while I happen to agree with a lot of his sentiment I do not like his tone as I shared before.
And about parables. They are extended similies. And the correct application is that something is LIKE something else. And I feel that when we read too many details into a parable we tend to fall into error. Or in donkeys case, he may or may not be right. IMO without further consideration it is virtually a "flip of the coin" at best as to whether or not we are correct with the things that we can read into any parable.
For instance, there is another parable right after the one that donkey refers too in Matthew ch. 13, Verses47-50. (KJV)
"Again the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Which, when it was full, they drew to the shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
In this parable the good and bad fish are gathered in the same net. Then the good are put in vessels and the bad are cast aside, then they are burned up.
So all I had to do to question the order of the judgment and/or gathering in the first parable is to keep reading a little bit to find another parable that doesn't seem to line up with the first one if we read into them both what is in my opinion only the same amount.
I believe both parables to be true, But I think that what is needed is more consideration of the matter. It is enough for me to believe it to be true that both parables are descriptions of what that day will be like.
______________________
This one seems like topically crucial verses to me. The Lord seems to lay out his criteria fairly simply.
John 15:5&6 (KJV)
I am the vine and ye are the branches: He that abideth in me and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered: and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
So when I'm looking at a parable I tend to look for other verses that speak directly to the same topic to look for understanding.
For instance, how directly does John 15:5&6 apply to the parable of wheat and tares.?
I'll look at them both and then consider.
_______________________
But I Feel very strongly about this one thing right now.
Whether it was faulty theology or just covering up Wierwille's perversions, TWI was FOOLISH and UNSOUND in mocking "Red Letter Christianity", even unto their own destruction.
Heb 1:2a
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his son,...
Heb 2:1-3
Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
For if the word spoken by angels was steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward:
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation: which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
or perhaps the strongest warning of all... (But in the epistles their are many strong warnings, but there is much more tenderness and mercy towards the church, lest we become bullies) Bit I am referring to The Way International and their fruit here.
Heb 6:8
But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing: whose end is to be burned.
______________________
Dear WordWolf,
Please feel free to offer your feedback. Even though I intended that last part to Dot, I'm almost done here because I'm not doing well.
But my perspective as to you post is that it is too huge for one thread. As I read, many things came up that seemed worthy to me of deserving it's own thread.
But as I tend now to read the gospels as directly leading to the things stated in the epistles, and I believe the Apostles were working directly from the things that the Lord said, I think it to be more appropriate to prove that the gathering together is not the same as the resurrections. The direct tie-ins seem abundant to me now where before I separated them. Perhaps I may be able to show the many things that seem to DIRECTLY relate to me and the abundance of things that fit will outweigh the few points that can be construed (IMO) to make them appear to be separate events.
But I don't say that as any insult to you, just sharing how I see it now. I'm more than willing to change back if it can be shown to me that the scriptures plainly teach it to be so.
I was reading 1 Co, ch. 15 the other day. And I counted four uses of the word "resurrection." And the number of times that the apostle Paul used some form of the word "rise" in terms of the dead rising was too many for me to have the desire to count. But it is clear that Paul was teaching about "resurrection" whenever he mentioned the dead rising.
1Co 15:52 (KJV)
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
And IMO verse 42 plainly shows that the context of this verse is the resurrection. The last trump, after the first six I might add, check the book of Revelation if necessary.
____________________
Now this is how I remember Wierwille attempting to finesse the matter in this chapter.
1Co 15: 23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Wierwille pulled us back to Rom ch. 8 where Paul said we have the firstfruits of the spirit. And then in order to prove his mastery of this section said that we need to add a comma to the translation so that it read "Christ, the firstfruits; afterward those that are Christ's at his coming. Then he said we are the firstfruits. So that in his opinion was the greatness of God's Word to us. WE ARE THE FIRSTFRUITS!?
Well I suppose anyone can go to Rom ch 8 and pull one verse out of context and off topic to prove a point, but that is unsound IMO. Or, instead, we could simply believe verse 20:
"But now is Christ is risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept."
Wierwille took the phrase "firstfruits" only three verse after that phrase is taught as Christ and went aaaallll the way to Rom 8 to prove his point.
Well.....I can go to 1Co 16:15 and say that since the household of Stephanas is called another sort of "firstfruits" that I think that 1Co 16:23 is refering to Stephanas.....
Now I would be the very first one to admit in all seriousness that would be stupid, but to me it makes as much sense as Wierwille flying aaalll the way over to Rom ch.8 to prove his point. At least I privately interpreted 1Co 16:23 from the same epistle.
___________________
And concerning Paul's manner, how many times did he talk of striving to obtain the prize in terms of being in the good graces of the Lord Jesus when he is raised, or when he sees the Lord? Quite a few I think. I can supply a list.
How simple it becomes once we realize that Paul was striving to obtain the resurrection of life instead of the resurrection of judgement.
But if TWI doctrine was true and the gathering together was for all without exception for our blessing then why oh why would Paul have needed to strive at all if it was a gimme for him....?
Phil. 3:10-14
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made comformable to his death:
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Bretheren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things that are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
I press toward the mark of the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Let's see, as it pertains to his resurrection what could Paul have been striving for......HHHMMMM.....? IMO it is very, very simple if we believe that what our Lord taught the Apostles applied to the Apostles. It seems they thought it applied to them.....
It seems scripturally likely that Paul did not want to be cast into the "outer darkness", or perhaps be tossed aside for burning, or perhaps he didn't want to be counted among the virgins who the Lord wouldn't open the doors of the kingdom for, or maybe he didn't want to be kicked out of the wedding feast for wearing his own garments, or maybe he didn't want to be among those who could only watch as many came from the east and the west to eat with Abraham in the kingdom, etc. etc. etc.
It's not like there are only a few exhortations about this stuff...
(edited for spelling and a little added for clarity)
Yeah, I kinda gather from the rest of the Donkey's pages, we are the firstfruits. Since we are the vine with grapes, but the tares are not fruits at all and burned.
He also has a "one net" page about the gathering. his "timeline" is odd but a refreshing muse.
I'm still working on my response to Wordwolf's post. I haven't even glanced at Donkey's site more than the five or ten minutes that had me finishing with donkey's supposed contact page.
But I did have a lot of fun going through Paul's epistles and looking for his views of being before the Lord. All I'm certain of is that I have found some of the references and they've been an interesting consideration for me.
Rom 14:10 (KJV-from here on out too in this post.)
"But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set thy brother at nought? for we shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ.
I remember Martindale teaching on the judgement seat of Christ. "Judgement seat" is the word "bema" in the greek. And I bet that by just typing "bema" I gave some ex-twiers a recollection or two of those times. He taught that for the faithful amoung the "Way" household it would be a type of awards ceremony the way I recall it.
But when I looked at the uses of "bema" last night I found that it was used of Pontious Pilate's judgement seet when he condemned the Lord to be crucified. And Paul used it in Acts when he reponded to the local rulers that he appeals to Caesar's judgement seat. I'm certain that Martindale watered down the word "bema" when he likened it to the place where the Lord pats all the good little wayfers on their backs.
But considering the things that I've learned about Martindale in the last year or so it makes sense that he'd handle "bema" the way he did in TWI.
See, if I were in charge of an international ministry and had been raised up in God's Word to believe it was o.k. to systematize the sexual abuse of young women and also beat down both friend and foe at nearly every opportunity to maintain my grip on power like Martindale, I might end up watering down the significance of the "bema" too.....
IICor 5:9,10
"Wherefore we labor, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
For we must all appear before the judgement seat (bema) of Christ; that everyone may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."
Prettey simple huh, IMO without the twisted Way scripture glasses.
Now let me think, where in the scriptures is the truth about the "bema" recorded...HHHMMM...
What could the Apostle Paul have been taught by the Lord Himself...HHHMMM...
Could it have been Martindale's version of Christ's judgement seat where Martindale recieves no consequences for his evil and abusive actions.....HHHMMM... And where Martindale is actually commended for the folks that he led into his crapola!?
Well, I suppose Martindale could successfully twist IICor 5:10 around like he did and fool most of us if we also happened to have been taught that the gospels don't apply to us. How convenient for Martindale.
Of course he had to ignore or twist many other epistle scriptures too, like Gal 6:9,10, or ICo 9:11, or the verse from an earlier post in Hebrews 6:8, etc. etc.
But as far as verses where the Lord Jesus teaches about His Bema.... and I think He'd be a better one to say how it will be than Martindale...duh.
Luke 12:45-48a
"But and if that servant say in huis heart, My Lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him sunder, and will appoint his portion with the unbelievers.
And that servant which knew his Lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few strpes....."
Now for me this verse makes sense too...
IThess 5: 4
"But you are not in darkness , that that day should overtake you as a thief."
Or , perhaps in the Lord's own words, ""The Lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him".
If you read the Lord's promises of those that don't see his day coming with Paul's exhortation to not live in darkness, or, if the Thessalonian's were not in darkness concerning the Lord's judgement seat, I think it was because Paul did not water down God's Word and Martindale did, but then again, Wierwille taught Martindale all of his nasty little abuses, didn't he?
ICo 13: 12
"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known".
That goes for Paul, me, you...and Martindale and Wierwille too. As we are KNOWN OF HIM! Only believe God's Word, and not TWI doctrine...er...I mean TWI wishful thinking.
I see what you mean on the contact page. I guess it is posible he's generalizing for the majority? I can't write him off just yet because he's making me rethink some of my reasons for my thoughts on the subject.
I thought about it quite a bit before I decided to post a little bit as a continued consideration of your post. As I said before, that post has several points that IMO are worthy of a thread all their own. But I decided to post this one anyway.
But let me add that I believe you are very good at reorganizing things with the "quote" feature, and if you decided to spin-off any of our discussion into another thread please feel free to do so.
JEFF
_____________________________
FIRE, the Lord's fire
Wordwolf brought this one up, and I have on ocassion too.
I CO 3:13(KJV, from here to the end of the post too.)
"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is."
Now, since I believe that the thing's that were spoken in the gospels generally flow seemlessly into the epistles I went back to the gospels.
Matthew 3: 10-12 (John the Baptist speaking)
"And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
I indeed indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, Whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Whose fan is in His hand, and He will throughly purge his floor, and gather His wheat into the garner; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
Does anyone else remember how TWI taught that "the Holy Ghost and fire" meant "spiritual fire?" It was a figure of speach to TWI. "Hendiadies" if I happen to recall correctly.
But after reading this the other day I thought, what if instead of meaning just one thing, John the baptist was referring to TWO diferent baptisms, or in other words the Lord would dip His people with spirit and with fire!?
I Co 13:3 says that every man's work shall be tried by fire. Of course from just the context of this verse it seems to me that Paul is talking about him, Apollos, and Peter even, ministers of the Lord Jesus Christ: HIS PEOPLE. This is not talking about anybody but the Lord's servants.
So for these genuine ministers I Co 3:15 holds true..."If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
After being at the Greasespot for a little more than a year I hessitate to say that Wierwille will fall into the "genuine minister" category anymore, but I am certain that the Lord will get it all correct. I'll wait for His day, and His say. When we all shall know Wierwille even as he is known.
Check these out...
I Pe 1:7
"That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:"
Jas 1:12
"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him."
So the Apostles seemed conversant in the Lord trying their works with fire, it sounds like all will pass through that fire some day.
My question is, how is that NOT a baptism, or dipping biblically speaking?
__________________
Unless someone else gets into it, I'm going to have to come back here to cover the verses that talk about the Lord's fire being used for vengence and destruction. I am almost out of time today.
But right now, suffice it to say that I am considering viewing the firey baptism and the vengeful destruction (II Pe 3:7 for one) through the Lord's fire to be twoo different things But what the heck, I will look at it some
Have you received the nearly innevitable batman jokes yet?
Yeah, I normally sign "The Bat" instead of Bruce. But being the Newbie in here, I did not want to start off with any source of contention among strangers.
"This guy thinks the TARES are taken from the wheat." DotMatrix
Hi Dot,
Check out his 'alpha&omega' page paragraph, pretty interesting.
"Prized of Father, an amazing post-tribulation clue is given here; that we which are 'alive and remain' will be caught up in the air. This shows that many have been 'killed AND taken out' for those saints to be the only ones that are 'alive AND remain'. Why even bother mentioning the words 'alive and remain', if it was life as normal before His return? No, Jesus was right, saints will die during the tribuation; only from the enemies wrath, not God's wrath. Firmly establishing that the saints are the last standing"
Yeah, I normally sign "The Bat" instead of Bruce. But being the Newbie in here, I did not want to start off with any source of contention among strangers.
Bruce
Dear Bruce,
If contention arose with such little provocation as that I would tend to think that it would not be your problem. :B) but at least with the Bruce Wayyne handle we may need to be mindful of your hidden alternate persona. MWAAAHAHAHA!
If contention arose with such little provocation as that I would tend to think that it would not be your problem. :B) but at least with the Bruce Wayyne handle we may need to be mindful of your hidden alternate persona. MWAAAHAHAHA!
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cman
i am the resurrection sound familiar? the just and unjust the wheat and the tares when Christ comes it will all unfold as it has always
brideofjc
Wowser-roos! What a tongue lashing!!!!
Slowly, ever so slowly I have moved away from pre-millennialism because of the things that I have seen in the Scriptures themselves. You can see current events in the book of Revelations or things that have been in progress for some time and realize that most likely we've already been in this triulation...maybe not the BIG ONE, but the birth pangs so to speak.
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Dot Matrix
Apparently, some priest put into the "thinking" this 1000 year thing. What the hey?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicism
So, there is no 1000 thingy it was all fabricated
http://www.historicism.com/
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WordWolf
There are more than 2 different events.
As I understand them-and I can lay it out verse by verse when I have time-
the order of events goes as follows:
1) right now
2) the Blessed Hope, aka the Rapture, aka our
Gathering Together unto him
(which leaves everyone on Earth who is living but not born again)
3) the Tribulation (7 years, includes many events, outlined in Revelation, including the Great Tribulation,
and the Day of God's Wrath of Revelation 6)
4) the Glorious Appearing (Revelation 19)- the first VISIBLE appearance of Jesus to Earth since the Ascension,
accompanies by those of the Blessed Hope/Rapture & various angels
5) A big fight immediately follows.
6) The Resurrection of the Just, aka the First Resurrection, aka the better Resurrection, aka the Resurrection of Life.
That's when all those "righteous" not Born Again are selected out. (Like the saints of the Tribulation,
and John the Baptist, and the Old Testament saints, and so on.)
(Early Revelation 20.)
7) The imprisonment of the devil for 1000 years.
8) 1000 years later, the devil is released, and the last battle occurs, ending with the Lake of Fire.
9) After the battle comes the Second Resurrection, aka, the Resurrection of the Unjustified, aka the Resurrection of Judgement.
At that time, the last of those selected by God are gathered, and those NOT selected by God are gathered,
and the unrighteous get destroyed in the Lake of Fire, while the righteous are NOT.
10) The new Heaven and New Earth of Revelation 21 and so on.
In none of those events do I see us remaining permanently in Heaven. We stop there during the Tribulation and
Day of Wrath, but otherwise accompany Jesus. He seems to relocate to the new Earth. If that's where he is, then that's where
we are.
This all became a lot clearer to me when I made two realizations:
A) One verse in the Gospels that calls one Resurrection the Resurrection of LIFE, and the other the Resurrection of DAMNATION.
HOWEVER, the Greek word is the same Greek word translated JUDGEMENT in other verses. Some translator decided to render
"judgement" as "condemnation" in some places, and "damnation" in other places, deciding by himself what those judgements
would render. Once I saw that, I made the second realization.
B) The Gathering Together/Blessed Hope/Rapture is very different from either Resurrection.
The First Resurrection is very different from the Second Resurrection.
In the GT/BH/R, there is "judgement", but no one's life is hazarded-their reward is at stake.
In the First Resurrection, the "judgement" is similar (the other circumstances differ greatly.)
In the Second Resurrection, the "judgement" is a full "judgement", with examination of the deeds of most of humanity,
and actual decisions as to their dispositions are made.
(Read the 2nd half of Revelation 20 for a pretty straightforward description.)
Those who are judged unworthy are destroyed in the Lake of Fire.
Those who are judged worthy (remember, they weren't born again and weren't saints of the Tribulation or the OT)
are called righteous and enter into a kingdom....
DESPITE NOT BEING BELIEVERS IN CHRIST OR YHWH.
Preposterous, you say.
Matthew 25:31-46.
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
=============
That's NOT the GT/BH/R.
THIS is the GT/BH/R judgement:
I Corinthians 3:10-15.
10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
It's not the First Resurrection, because Revelation 20:4-6 shows no DIVISION, and all the First Resurrection members
are exempted from the Lake of Fire ("the second death.")
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The only Resurrection with ANY split is the Second Resurrection, which is why it's the Resurrection of JUDGEMENT.
Revelation 20:11-15.
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
If they "pass" it's because of "their works".
That's EXACTLY what Matthew 25 said, and it elaborated on that.
Revelation 21:1-4.
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
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JeffSjo
Dear Dot,
I cannot now imagine why I haven't looked at this thread till now. But I am looking forward to seeing what developes.
What do I think of "The Donkey"!? I went to the "contact page" and found that it was not really a contact page at all. And "The Donkey" said that there was one of two reasons anybody would click the contact page at all, but in all honesty Donkey was completely wrong about me. I clicked the contact page to continue to look and evaluate the site. And to be perfectly blunt, Donky's listing it as a contact page was not true and neither of his reasons for me clicking on that page were true either. So in just his/her contact page I am certain that donkey was both misleading and mistaken.
But even though I do not believe that someone who is misleading and mistaken on their contact page has any business taking such an aggressive tone with much of anybody, I do believe the issues are good to consider.
And even though I now believe that the gathering and the resurrection are the same events and not similar events as Wierwille taught, I will be happy to see what developes, especially with Mr. Wordwolf around to go through these things with. But this is just off the top of my head.
I think I should do a little reading and thinking now. I might even write down a scripture reference or two myself.
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JeffSjo
Dear Wordwolf,
If you care to proceed I'll be happy to work from your list of scriptures and points. And I am most happy to take it from there to see what developes.
It will definitely take me more time to put something together to start this than it would you to do, I'm sure. I will do my best to do so if need be.
Take care and God Bless.
p.s.
Of course anyone feel free to contribute. This is an open forum after all.
(edited for spelling)
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WordWolf
http://www.biblegateway.com/
Ok. My points, I think, are easy to track from Scripture.
First of all, reincarnation is dismissed, in case anyone asks.
Hebrews 9:27.
NIV.
27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
NASB.
27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
KJV.
27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Death ONCE, then judgement.
If one just reads this, it's easy to see how some people ended up with the doctrine that judgement
for each person IMMEDIATELY follows that person's death.
The one catch, of course, is that Scripture shows judgement occurring for lots of people at once,
and that all in the future, NOT one at a time at each person's death.
It does not say "IMMEDIATELY after this the judgment" or "IMMEDIATELY after this comes judgment".
In the absence of an explanation that outlines judgment much later, an IMMEDIATE judgment remains
a possibility. However, the outlining of the judgments clearly show them as future events.
No matter if you think the Christians are in the First Resurrection, or if you think they precede it in
a "Rapture", they're still judged in the future.
This should not be a major surprise to most regulars here, but it WOULD shock a lot of people.
I operate under a few basic assumptions, when studying the Day of Judgment.
The first is that each person will be judged ONCE, and be exempt from any later judgments as a result.
(Other assumptions center around the usual- the Bible is accurate, the translators make mistakes but
the originals lacked mistakes, etc.)
=============
Now, then, I make GREAT exception over the inconsistent translation-at least in the KJV where I studied it out-
of the Greek words "krima" and "krisis". Both words are virtually interchangeable as "judgment."
However, they are not translated CONSISTENTLY (at least in the KJV.)
Sometimes they are translated "judgment", sometimes "condemnation", sometimes "damnation."
Now, those are words that have VERY different meanings.
"Judgment" can be FOR a person or AGAINST a person. The word "judgment" does not indicate the direction of a verdict.
"Condemnation" means a judgment was made, a verdict was rendered-AGAINST the person.
"Damnation" is even stronger than "condemnation", the ULTIMATE verdict was rendered AGAINST the person.
In the interest of clarity, there should be ONE word in English for ONE word in Greek. (In this case, for BOTH words in Greek, actually.)
That it should be "judgment" and not "condemnation" nor "damnation" is clear when seen in this verse:
Romans 11:33
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
"Condemnation" could not fit in this sentence, nor could "damnation."
But it's the same Greek word as in verse 29 here:
John 5:28-29.
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
As the translators rendered this, the good people go to the resurrection of life-and presumably live,
and the bad people go to the resurrection of damnation-and presumably suffer an eternal punishment- destruction, eternal flame, whatever your theology claims.
However, repair the translator's error, and the resurrections become "life" and "judgment",
which are not opposite words.
The translator let his doctrine affect his work. But we can repair that easily enough, if we dare to.
The problem then becomes the doctrines based on the translational errors- the expectation that the second resurrection
equalled damnation for the attendees. When one reads the actual account of it, however, that is not what it says.
=====================
For the first of the events, as I see them, we look at the "Rapture", the Blessed Hope, our gathering together unto him.
Right now, things are as they are now. You need no verses to tell you what it's like now.
Things will change, however, at a point in the future. What changes them, and how do they change?
KJV
II Thessalonians 2:3-4
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
"A falling away". "Ha apostasia." Literally, "a moving away from."
Some people say it's a negative movement, and transliterated it "apostasy."
Some people say it's a positive movement, and translated it "departure." (twi did, anyway.)
Frankly, it doesn't really matter WHICH you render it, since there's 2 events simultaneous to each other,
one is an apostasy, one is a departure.
II Thessalonians 2:7
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
The "apostasy", the rise of the Man of Sins, the Son of Perdition, ("the anti-Christ") can't happen while God's Protection prevents it.
The thing is, God's Protection is on THE CHRISTIANS.
Remove all the Christians from the planet at once, (in a "Rapture", say), and God's Protection goes with them,
leaving the planet unprotected, which would permit the rise of evil and the beginning of the End Times.
============
This has happened before, on a much smaller scale......
Genesis 19. The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.
The cities were so wicked, they were slated for destruction- except for Lot, the only righteous man in TWO cities.
Lot was told the cities were going to be destroyed for their wickedness. He was told to leave immediately, and to make
his family leave immediately.
It's pretty straightforward. Until you read verse 22.
15And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.
16And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.
17And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.
18And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my LORD:
19Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:
20Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.
21And he said unto him, See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow this city, for the which thou hast spoken.
22Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do anything till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.
God's Protection was on Lot. As soon as Lot left the cities, they were given over to destruction.
======================
I Corinthians 15:51-54
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
I Thessalonians 4:13-17
(KJV)
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(NASB)
13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
I consider the end, "so we shall always be with the Lord" to be of critical importance in understanding the events to come.
From the time of the fulfillment of that verse onward, we will be with Jesus. Where he is, we are. Where we are, he is.
=================
I'm sure lots of people are still convinced that WE don't go anywhere until the First Resurrection.
That's all the way in Revelation 20, after Jesus returns dramatically and delivers a major smackdown at the end of Revelation 19.
Of course, it's also after all the events of Revelation 1-19.
I'd like to mention "wrath" for a moment.
Romans 5:9
KJV
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
NASB
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
I Thessalonians 1:10
KJV
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
NASB
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.
I Thessalonians 5:9
KJV
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
NASB
For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
=====
What is "the wrath to come"?
It's in Revelation. The early chapters are warnings, and announcements of things that will shortly come to pass.
Events begin happening with the breaking of the seals- those begin in Revelation 6.
KJV
1And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
3And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
5And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
7And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
==========
NASB
1Then I saw when the Lamb broke one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, "Come."
2I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
3When He broke the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, "Come."
4And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.
5When He broke the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, "Come " I looked, and behold, a black horse; and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand.
6And I heard something like a voice in the center of the four living creatures saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not damage the oil and the wine."
7When the Lamb broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, "Come."
8I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.
9When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
12I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood;
13and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.
14The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains;
16and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
17for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
=============
Terrifying things happen- conquest, slaughter, famine, pestilence, earthquakes, and more.
It's "THE WRATH OF THE LAMB", "THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH."
Am I concerned about living through it? Not a bit.
I'm saved from wrath, I'm delivered from wrath, I'm not appointed to wrath.
Now, those people who expect Christians to live through "the Tribulation" and not be "Raptured" are welcome to compose any
theory they like on how they can be saved from earthquakes, etc while living through them,
or find some other event and call that "wrath" as well. (I haven't found another future "wrath", so I don't give good odds
for finding another event CALLED "wrath.")
To me, the most logical reason we're not appointed to suffer through the day of wrath is that we aren't here at all-
We are gathered together out of here, the Protection of God leaves the Earth, the Man of Sins is revealed,
and the End Times proceed. The day of wrath happens, and is finished before we return years later
(at the end of Revelation 19, still with Jesus as he returns to Earth to open up a tremendous can of whupass
on the Man of Sins and all of his.
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JeffSjo
I hope that I can figure out how to print this in the next five minutes Wordwolf.
Thanks and I'll get on this soon.
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Dot Matrix
WW
I was praying you would show up.
I will go over what you are saying. I am currently working all this with a Bapacostal minister who believes the 1000 thing was placed in scripture via a priest and it did not belong there. This Bapacostal is a research type as well--- I am not. I learn it then being an evangelist type I go out and tell the world. So, the parable of the tares - where they are removed FIRST was the first time I ever saw ANYTHING other than I am sitting here waiting for the rapture.
He says there are two events as well. The tares and their deal - then us and ours and it centers around judgment.
He is still unclear on the lake of hell fire and believes that there may not be a place they go with continued torment -- but the torment is that they are never to go into heaven. The permanent separation. That is where we are, except that we are looking into "body - soul - and spirit" and he it relates to who has what judgment.
Edited for typos
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WordWolf
As I understand it, the only time the "tares" thing CAN refer to is "the end of the world", the latter half of Revelation 20,
AFTER the 1000 years, AFTER the Resurrection of the Just, AFTER the Tribulation, AFTER the "Rapture."
(Rapture, then 7 years of Tribulation, then the First Resurrection, then the Millenial Reign of Christ, THEN the Second Resurrection.)
The Second Resurrection is "the end of the world" because Revelation 21 shows the next thing- the New Heaven,
New Earth, and New Jerusalem all debut. The world that WAS is no longer.
(As I understand it, any "old" Earth gets recycled into any "new" Earth. It's on the same location, using the same materials,
but it's a new design, and newly constructed.)
The Second Resurrection is when the "sheep"/"wheat" and the "goats"/"tares" are separated from each other.
The sheep/wheat get entry into the kingdom, the goats/tares get destroyed in the lake of fire.
(THREE events.) Ours is the FIRST of THREE, not the LAST of TWO.
It's natural to be fuzzy on final disposition because there's something I don't have the details of, either.
The "tares" will be destroyed in the lake of fire.
HOWEVER,
In the last 2 chapters of Revelation, we find some people were punished by being prohibited from entering New Jerusalem,
and there's some business about "the outer darkness" that I don't understand yet.
If I were pressed to GUESS about them, my GUESS would be that those people are the born-again Christians
who earned punishment and squandered the gift of eternal life. I'm NOT certain about that at all. My honest
response is still "I don't know."
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JeffSjo
Dear Dot,
As I've considered this matter over the last few days I've realized that as your Bapacostal minister friend I am challenged with the whole concept of the 1000 years between the two resurrections in Rev. ch. 20.
And even though I am anxious to dig into Wordwolf's posts I feel this point of yours is too huge to bypass.
An tremendous amount of speculation and supposition has been made over this "1000 year reign" of Christ with his saints for centuries. And much of our more recent considerations; in the movies even; have been built upon these verses.
If they are an addition to the text that simplifies an awful lot for me. But I will not permit things being easier for me to determine all by itself to persuade me as it pertains to the issues of whether or not it is a legitimate part of the scriptures. I'd rather admit that I do not understand something than ignorantly refuse any scripture.
But this particular issue seems huge to me. Without these verses being genuine, well, frankly, an awful lot of future speculation can be quickly eliminated from our consideration. And it would IMO quickly revolutionize much fundamentalist theology. If your minister friend has anything more than his own reasoning to go on as it pertains to these scriptures I would absolutely be interested to hear or read it.
But in the mean time it seems to me that their is a lot of good things to consider here that, God willing, we may be able to gain some ground in.
(Edited for spelling and grammar)
P.s.
I am currently giving the sites that you show in post #3 a look-see. A lot of info is their as it relates to your pastor friend's views Dot. Anyhoo, I'm a lookin.
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JeffSjo
That sounds good to me Wordwolf. And while there are doubtlessly many scriptures that could speak directly to the biblical view of reincarnation one of my favorites that seem to bring a bit of gritty realism to the discussion is:
Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,&10 (KJV)
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with all thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."
What I am heavily considering in this topic is to be wary of speculation. It is one thing to read a verse and say, "Since this is so then I think this fits too." vs. "The scriptures plainly state this". I hope the sentiment is clear anyway.
I think you may be right on that point. But what can we do but seek to handle the scriptures honestly no matter people's reactions.
Sounds good to me
I haven't worked this yet, but it seems clear enough to hear you say it.
Well said WW, and while we differ on this at this point I am enjoying the read.
The way I see it as you share it is the some are protected from God's wrath. So while there is still much to consider I feel that God's wrath is equivalent to destruction. And while tribulation is intense, it is entirely different than destruction. In a few epistle scriptures we are even promised tribulation. And while that might not be the same as the "Great Tribulation" that the Lord spoke of, it still is not the same thing as destruction either. So while the scriptures plainly say that we are saved from wrath though him, I do not think it says that we are saved from tribulation, even the "Great tribulation". Frankly, the Lord told his disciples that if those days were not to be shortened that no flesh would be saved.
That whole 'last trump' business seems key to me. The seventh trumpet in the book of Revelation follows six pretty intense trumpets and no small trouble for human kind in general. But the wrath of God seems to me to be part of the events concerning the seventh trump.
Dear Dot and Wordwolf,
I am facing my limitations right now and here it is in a nutshell.
I have very limited computer time and I cannot spend enough time on the computer to analyze your posts, let alone the other sites that you both gave us links too. But with the limited time I have left I will do my best to write this info down so that over the rest of this weekend I can put together a more thorough and thoughtful response. Everything so far was off the top of my head as this is the first chance I have had to really look at your posts.
For the rest of the weekend it'll just be my list that hopefully do a good job of covering the content of your posts and my Bible and concordance. it seems like a very huge topic and I hope to God that we may due this topic justice.
Take care and God bless.
JEFF
(added in editing)
Hooray, I just figured out how to print this topic.
I'll see y'all on Monday.
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Dot Matrix
Thanks Jeff
Yeah, this guy and I are working it. What I mean by "we" are working it, he is working it and I am listening and looking it over.
I just thought all this end stuff was simplier than it apparently is
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WordWolf
I'm not left out- I can already see some things I could use more study on- as soon as I get the time.
First among those is the various trumps, and possibly the voice of the archangel.
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JeffSjo
Hi Dot and Wordwolf,
I am hurting too much to go to work today, and I am noit sure how long I'll be able to bear this. But it doesn't seem too much different sitting at the library vs. sitting at home. Here goes......
Dear Dot,
Going back to your first post where you asked us what we think about the donkey.
The donkey took one parable and built quite an aggressive sharing based on that. And while I happen to agree with a lot of his sentiment I do not like his tone as I shared before.
And about parables. They are extended similies. And the correct application is that something is LIKE something else. And I feel that when we read too many details into a parable we tend to fall into error. Or in donkeys case, he may or may not be right. IMO without further consideration it is virtually a "flip of the coin" at best as to whether or not we are correct with the things that we can read into any parable.
For instance, there is another parable right after the one that donkey refers too in Matthew ch. 13, Verses47-50. (KJV)
"Again the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Which, when it was full, they drew to the shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
In this parable the good and bad fish are gathered in the same net. Then the good are put in vessels and the bad are cast aside, then they are burned up.
So all I had to do to question the order of the judgment and/or gathering in the first parable is to keep reading a little bit to find another parable that doesn't seem to line up with the first one if we read into them both what is in my opinion only the same amount.
I believe both parables to be true, But I think that what is needed is more consideration of the matter. It is enough for me to believe it to be true that both parables are descriptions of what that day will be like.
______________________
This one seems like topically crucial verses to me. The Lord seems to lay out his criteria fairly simply.
John 15:5&6 (KJV)
I am the vine and ye are the branches: He that abideth in me and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered: and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
So when I'm looking at a parable I tend to look for other verses that speak directly to the same topic to look for understanding.
For instance, how directly does John 15:5&6 apply to the parable of wheat and tares.?
I'll look at them both and then consider.
_______________________
But I Feel very strongly about this one thing right now.
Whether it was faulty theology or just covering up Wierwille's perversions, TWI was FOOLISH and UNSOUND in mocking "Red Letter Christianity", even unto their own destruction.
Heb 1:2a
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his son,...
Heb 2:1-3
Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
For if the word spoken by angels was steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward:
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation: which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
or perhaps the strongest warning of all... (But in the epistles their are many strong warnings, but there is much more tenderness and mercy towards the church, lest we become bullies) Bit I am referring to The Way International and their fruit here.
Heb 6:8
But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing: whose end is to be burned.
______________________
Dear WordWolf,
Please feel free to offer your feedback. Even though I intended that last part to Dot, I'm almost done here because I'm not doing well.
But my perspective as to you post is that it is too huge for one thread. As I read, many things came up that seemed worthy to me of deserving it's own thread.
But as I tend now to read the gospels as directly leading to the things stated in the epistles, and I believe the Apostles were working directly from the things that the Lord said, I think it to be more appropriate to prove that the gathering together is not the same as the resurrections. The direct tie-ins seem abundant to me now where before I separated them. Perhaps I may be able to show the many things that seem to DIRECTLY relate to me and the abundance of things that fit will outweigh the few points that can be construed (IMO) to make them appear to be separate events.
But I don't say that as any insult to you, just sharing how I see it now. I'm more than willing to change back if it can be shown to me that the scriptures plainly teach it to be so.
JEFF
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JeffSjo
I was reading 1 Co, ch. 15 the other day. And I counted four uses of the word "resurrection." And the number of times that the apostle Paul used some form of the word "rise" in terms of the dead rising was too many for me to have the desire to count. But it is clear that Paul was teaching about "resurrection" whenever he mentioned the dead rising.
1Co 15:52 (KJV)
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
And IMO verse 42 plainly shows that the context of this verse is the resurrection. The last trump, after the first six I might add, check the book of Revelation if necessary.
____________________
Now this is how I remember Wierwille attempting to finesse the matter in this chapter.
1Co 15: 23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Wierwille pulled us back to Rom ch. 8 where Paul said we have the firstfruits of the spirit. And then in order to prove his mastery of this section said that we need to add a comma to the translation so that it read "Christ, the firstfruits; afterward those that are Christ's at his coming. Then he said we are the firstfruits. So that in his opinion was the greatness of God's Word to us. WE ARE THE FIRSTFRUITS!?
Well I suppose anyone can go to Rom ch 8 and pull one verse out of context and off topic to prove a point, but that is unsound IMO. Or, instead, we could simply believe verse 20:
"But now is Christ is risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept."
Wierwille took the phrase "firstfruits" only three verse after that phrase is taught as Christ and went aaaallll the way to Rom 8 to prove his point.
Well.....I can go to 1Co 16:15 and say that since the household of Stephanas is called another sort of "firstfruits" that I think that 1Co 16:23 is refering to Stephanas.....
Now I would be the very first one to admit in all seriousness that would be stupid, but to me it makes as much sense as Wierwille flying aaalll the way over to Rom ch.8 to prove his point. At least I privately interpreted 1Co 16:23 from the same epistle.
___________________
And concerning Paul's manner, how many times did he talk of striving to obtain the prize in terms of being in the good graces of the Lord Jesus when he is raised, or when he sees the Lord? Quite a few I think. I can supply a list.
How simple it becomes once we realize that Paul was striving to obtain the resurrection of life instead of the resurrection of judgement.
But if TWI doctrine was true and the gathering together was for all without exception for our blessing then why oh why would Paul have needed to strive at all if it was a gimme for him....?
Phil. 3:10-14
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made comformable to his death:
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Bretheren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things that are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
I press toward the mark of the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Let's see, as it pertains to his resurrection what could Paul have been striving for......HHHMMMM.....? IMO it is very, very simple if we believe that what our Lord taught the Apostles applied to the Apostles. It seems they thought it applied to them.....
It seems scripturally likely that Paul did not want to be cast into the "outer darkness", or perhaps be tossed aside for burning, or perhaps he didn't want to be counted among the virgins who the Lord wouldn't open the doors of the kingdom for, or maybe he didn't want to be kicked out of the wedding feast for wearing his own garments, or maybe he didn't want to be among those who could only watch as many came from the east and the west to eat with Abraham in the kingdom, etc. etc. etc.
It's not like there are only a few exhortations about this stuff...
(edited for spelling and a little added for clarity)
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Bruce_wayyne
WE ARE THE FIRSTFRUITS!?
Yeah, I kinda gather from the rest of the Donkey's pages, we are the firstfruits. Since we are the vine with grapes, but the tares are not fruits at all and burned.
He also has a "one net" page about the gathering. his "timeline" is odd but a refreshing muse.
Bruce
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JeffSjo
I'm still working on my response to Wordwolf's post. I haven't even glanced at Donkey's site more than the five or ten minutes that had me finishing with donkey's supposed contact page.
But I did have a lot of fun going through Paul's epistles and looking for his views of being before the Lord. All I'm certain of is that I have found some of the references and they've been an interesting consideration for me.
Rom 14:10 (KJV-from here on out too in this post.)
"But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set thy brother at nought? for we shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ.
I remember Martindale teaching on the judgement seat of Christ. "Judgement seat" is the word "bema" in the greek. And I bet that by just typing "bema" I gave some ex-twiers a recollection or two of those times. He taught that for the faithful amoung the "Way" household it would be a type of awards ceremony the way I recall it.
But when I looked at the uses of "bema" last night I found that it was used of Pontious Pilate's judgement seet when he condemned the Lord to be crucified. And Paul used it in Acts when he reponded to the local rulers that he appeals to Caesar's judgement seat. I'm certain that Martindale watered down the word "bema" when he likened it to the place where the Lord pats all the good little wayfers on their backs.
But considering the things that I've learned about Martindale in the last year or so it makes sense that he'd handle "bema" the way he did in TWI.
See, if I were in charge of an international ministry and had been raised up in God's Word to believe it was o.k. to systematize the sexual abuse of young women and also beat down both friend and foe at nearly every opportunity to maintain my grip on power like Martindale, I might end up watering down the significance of the "bema" too.....
IICor 5:9,10
"Wherefore we labor, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
For we must all appear before the judgement seat (bema) of Christ; that everyone may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."
Prettey simple huh, IMO without the twisted Way scripture glasses.
Now let me think, where in the scriptures is the truth about the "bema" recorded...HHHMMM...
What could the Apostle Paul have been taught by the Lord Himself...HHHMMM...
Could it have been Martindale's version of Christ's judgement seat where Martindale recieves no consequences for his evil and abusive actions.....HHHMMM... And where Martindale is actually commended for the folks that he led into his crapola!?
Well, I suppose Martindale could successfully twist IICor 5:10 around like he did and fool most of us if we also happened to have been taught that the gospels don't apply to us. How convenient for Martindale.
Of course he had to ignore or twist many other epistle scriptures too, like Gal 6:9,10, or ICo 9:11, or the verse from an earlier post in Hebrews 6:8, etc. etc.
But as far as verses where the Lord Jesus teaches about His Bema.... and I think He'd be a better one to say how it will be than Martindale...duh.
Luke 12:45-48a
"But and if that servant say in huis heart, My Lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him sunder, and will appoint his portion with the unbelievers.
And that servant which knew his Lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few strpes....."
Now for me this verse makes sense too...
IThess 5: 4
"But you are not in darkness , that that day should overtake you as a thief."
Or , perhaps in the Lord's own words, ""The Lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him".
If you read the Lord's promises of those that don't see his day coming with Paul's exhortation to not live in darkness, or, if the Thessalonian's were not in darkness concerning the Lord's judgement seat, I think it was because Paul did not water down God's Word and Martindale did, but then again, Wierwille taught Martindale all of his nasty little abuses, didn't he?
ICo 13: 12
"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known".
That goes for Paul, me, you...and Martindale and Wierwille too. As we are KNOWN OF HIM! Only believe God's Word, and not TWI doctrine...er...I mean TWI wishful thinking.
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Bruce_wayyne
IThess 5: 4
"But you are not in darkness , that that day should overtake you as a thief."
Nice points Jeff...
His "thief" page is off the wall, but worth a read.
http://www.thiefinthenight.org/thief
I see what you mean on the contact page. I guess it is posible he's generalizing for the majority? I can't write him off just yet because he's making me rethink some of my reasons for my thoughts on the subject.
Bruce
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JeffSjo
T's cool Bruce.
Have you received the nearly innevitable batman jokes yet?
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JeffSjo
Dear Wordwolf,
I thought about it quite a bit before I decided to post a little bit as a continued consideration of your post. As I said before, that post has several points that IMO are worthy of a thread all their own. But I decided to post this one anyway.
But let me add that I believe you are very good at reorganizing things with the "quote" feature, and if you decided to spin-off any of our discussion into another thread please feel free to do so.
JEFF
_____________________________
FIRE, the Lord's fire
Wordwolf brought this one up, and I have on ocassion too.
I CO 3:13(KJV, from here to the end of the post too.)
"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is."
Now, since I believe that the thing's that were spoken in the gospels generally flow seemlessly into the epistles I went back to the gospels.
Matthew 3: 10-12 (John the Baptist speaking)
"And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
I indeed indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, Whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Whose fan is in His hand, and He will throughly purge his floor, and gather His wheat into the garner; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
Does anyone else remember how TWI taught that "the Holy Ghost and fire" meant "spiritual fire?" It was a figure of speach to TWI. "Hendiadies" if I happen to recall correctly.
But after reading this the other day I thought, what if instead of meaning just one thing, John the baptist was referring to TWO diferent baptisms, or in other words the Lord would dip His people with spirit and with fire!?
I Co 13:3 says that every man's work shall be tried by fire. Of course from just the context of this verse it seems to me that Paul is talking about him, Apollos, and Peter even, ministers of the Lord Jesus Christ: HIS PEOPLE. This is not talking about anybody but the Lord's servants.
So for these genuine ministers I Co 3:15 holds true..."If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
After being at the Greasespot for a little more than a year I hessitate to say that Wierwille will fall into the "genuine minister" category anymore, but I am certain that the Lord will get it all correct. I'll wait for His day, and His say. When we all shall know Wierwille even as he is known.
Check these out...
I Pe 1:7
"That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:"
Jas 1:12
"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him."
So the Apostles seemed conversant in the Lord trying their works with fire, it sounds like all will pass through that fire some day.
My question is, how is that NOT a baptism, or dipping biblically speaking?
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Unless someone else gets into it, I'm going to have to come back here to cover the verses that talk about the Lord's fire being used for vengence and destruction. I am almost out of time today.
But right now, suffice it to say that I am considering viewing the firey baptism and the vengeful destruction (II Pe 3:7 for one) through the Lord's fire to be twoo different things But what the heck, I will look at it some
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Bruce_wayyne
Yeah, I normally sign "The Bat" instead of Bruce. But being the Newbie in here, I did not want to start off with any source of contention among strangers.
Bruce
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Bruce_wayyne
http://www.thiefinthenight.org/taresthenwheat
"This guy thinks the TARES are taken from the wheat." DotMatrix
Hi Dot,
Check out his 'alpha&omega' page paragraph, pretty interesting.
"Prized of Father, an amazing post-tribulation clue is given here; that we which are 'alive and remain' will be caught up in the air. This shows that many have been 'killed AND taken out' for those saints to be the only ones that are 'alive AND remain'. Why even bother mentioning the words 'alive and remain', if it was life as normal before His return? No, Jesus was right, saints will die during the tribuation; only from the enemies wrath, not God's wrath. Firmly establishing that the saints are the last standing"
I'm think starting to lean more post than mid.
Bruce
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JeffSjo
Dear Bruce,
If contention arose with such little provocation as that I would tend to think that it would not be your problem. :B) but at least with the Bruce Wayyne handle we may need to be mindful of your hidden alternate persona. MWAAAHAHAHA!
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Bruce_wayyne
Dear Commisioner Jeff,
All I can say is, it's a beautiful day in Gotham.
Bruce
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