alright,..... I don't even understand Jeff's questions.
There have always been 2 resurrections. One for the just - and - one for the unjust
But there are two times when things (peoples) get gathered
The first time is when the dead in Christ shall rise, Behold I show you a mystery! and the living are changed and scoot off the meet the lord in the air, blah blah blah...
The second is the one Jesus talked about it happens on that merry olde Thief-in-the-Night day. One shall be taken one left, blah blah blah... but none of those people are dead, and it's not the gathering of the BODY I siuspect tares get gathered first etc,.... just as Jesus said,..... where's the problem? What am I missing here?
edited to add
those 2 I lumped as gatherings,... well neither of those is all dead people, so they can't be resurrections, you don't resurrect alive people.
alright,..... I don't even understand Jeff's questions.
There have always been 2 resurrections. One for the just - and - one for the unjust
But there are two times when things (peoples) get gathered
The first time is when the dead in Christ shall rise, Behold I show you a mystery! and the living are changed and scoot off the meet the lord in the air, blah blah blah...
The second is the one Jesus talked about it happens on that merry olde Thief-in-the-Night day. One shall be taken one left, blah blah blah... but none of those people are dead, and it's not the gathering of the BODY I siuspect tares get gathered first etc,.... just as Jesus said,..... where's the problem? What am I missing here?
edited to add
those 2 I lumped as gatherings,... well neither of those is all dead people, so they can't be resurrections, you don't resurrect alive people.
Hi Gen-2,
Let me try to clarify this, but it's all I can do tonight and I won't get back till tomorrow sometime.
I think you are right, that the resurrection is when people get up. I think we may consider the resurrection of the just and the unjust if this thread developes that way, God willing.
Wierwille taught that the "gathering together" for the body of Christ was different and preceding both resurrections. I think now that the resurrection of the just IS THE SAME AS THE resurrection of the just.
I think that the ultra-dispensationalism that seperated the "gathering together" from the resurrection is a result of reading into the scriptures an idea that is not explicitely stated and IMO is also improper "eisegesis" of the scriptures.
I think that this view fairly directly led to a group-think that allowed adultery to be ok and hashed the Word to pieces because where I see continuity Wierwille taught seperation of administrations.
I meant Matthew 13:40. That should teach me not to look my Bible without my magnifying glasses on!
Just think about it for awhile, and let it soak in. Jesus is talking about the end of THIS AGE, the end of THIS PERIOD OF TIME.
" I think now that the resurrection of the just IS THE SAME AS THE resurrection of the just."
don't we all?
get some sleep guy...
Hiya,
Let me quickly share how I felt all night when I realized that I wrote,"the resurrection of the just IS THE SAME AS THE resurrection of the just."
Here it is...........AAAAGGGGHHHHH!
I knew it made no sense but I couldn't get back till now.
What I meant to say is,(Caps are for emphasis, not for yelling)"THE GATHERING TOGETHER is the same as the resurrection of the just." But I mean that what Wierwille taught as the gathering together is the resurrection of the just.
____________________________
This is how I tie things together now from the gospels to the book of Revelation as concerning Dot Matrix' original question.
Jesus said he gathers the wheat .................and the tares.
resurrection of the just......................and the unjust.
And perhaps because I was already questioning the validity of the "Thousand Year Reign" that Revelation mentions I am suspecting that that once occuring scripture may be a deliberate addition to the text along with Dot's Baptacostal minister, but if that ends up being an accurate yet once occurring scripture I will look for better understanding, heck, it wouldn't be the first time.
Jeff, I agree, the return and resurrection in Matthew, Thessalonians and Christ's return in Revelation are all the same event.
You realize the implications of this now do you not? If they are the same event, then there is no "rapture" or "gathering together."
If this is so, then Christians have been fed a lie.
If, as many believe, the OT prophecies go into Matthew into the age of grace into the book of Revelation. This means, we will go through the tribulation as the event of Christ's return comes AFTER the tribulation and wrath. If its all the same dispensation/administration, let's all hope we have enough oil in our lamps when He does appear, and after all the destruction, those still standing after the tribulation and wrath - the survivors - will go out to meet him in the air when he comes.
What a bleak, dreary, awful hope for a Christian - to know they are going through the 7 year tribulation and wrath, thus, prepare to hang tough.
You need to look at - what was the early Jewish Christians and new Hellenistic/Gentile Christians' Hope? It was "Israel's Hope" as Paul states in Acts 26. He states he is in bonds for the "Hope of Israel." He teaches "nothing but what Moses, the Law and the Prophets teach." He always goes to "the Jew first." Romans, I&II Corinthians, Galations, I and II Thessalonians, I Timothy were written when he was teaching "Israel's Hope" and that's what the believers of that time were looking forward to - entering the time of the Book of Revelation - the Kingdom was at hand, He was coming back shortly to rule. He was coming back shortly to take his rightful place on the throne of David and Rule the Nations. The Gentiles were blessed to be grafted into the Olive tree (Romans) and were blessed and graced to be able to share in Israel's inheritance after being "aliens and strangers" from the promises and covenants of Israel. So, yes those are all the same incident and the Gentiles get to hang with Israel and share in Israel's hope during the "Acts period" as I will call it.
So now, what is the answer for the Christian? We're told we need to be faithful, we're saved by our works, then we're told its grace, then we're..., etc. How do you tell them what they will go through if this is all one continuous administration? How do you reconcile these difficulties?
Let me try to clarify this, but it's all I can do tonight and I won't get back till tomorrow sometime.
I think you are right, that the resurrection is when people get up. I think we may consider the resurrection of the just and the unjust if this thread developes that way, God willing.
Wierwille taught that the "gathering together" for the body of Christ was different and preceding both resurrections. I think now that the resurrection of the just IS THE SAME AS THE resurrection of the just.
I think that the ultra-dispensationalism that seperated the "gathering together" from the resurrection is a result of reading into the scriptures an idea that is not explicitely stated and IMO is also improper "eisegesis" of the scriptures.
I think that this view fairly directly led to a group-think that allowed adultery to be ok and hashed the Word to pieces because where I see continuity Wierwille taught seperation of administrations.
Awesome for me too Steve! :)
Oh, OH, OHHHH.
Now I know why you wanted me here Jeffy. I'll chime into this ASAP (taxes don't ya know...). Suffice for this post; the ultradispensationalism of Bullinger in this area is nothing different than classic dispy thought for the last 200 years (it's not a cultish thing we're dealing with; nor eisegesis for that matter). The difference between the "resurrections" and the "rapture" (as known in dispyland) is real and Biblical. Add to that some interesting things with Jesus, while he was still alive (on earth that is) and talking about the "end" and you'll see some things, I think, that will help.
Jeff, I agree, the return and resurrection in Matthew, Thessalonians and Christ's return in Revelation are all the same event.
You realize the implications of this now do you not? If they are the same event, then there is no "rapture" or "gathering together."
If this is so, then Christians have been fed a lie.
If, as many believe, the OT prophecies go into Matthew into the age of grace into the book of Revelation. This means, we will go through the tribulation as the event of Christ's return comes AFTER the tribulation and wrath. If its all the same dispensation/administration, let's all hope we have enough oil in our lamps when He does appear, and after all the destruction, those still standing after the tribulation and wrath - the survivors - will go out to meet him in the air when he comes.
What a bleak, dreary, awful hope for a Christian - to know they are going through the 7 year tribulation and wrath, thus, prepare to hang tough.
You need to look at - what was the early Jewish Christians and new Hellenistic/Gentile Christians' Hope? It was "Israel's Hope" as Paul states in Acts 26. He states he is in bonds for the "Hope of Israel." He teaches "nothing but what Moses, the Law and the Prophets teach." He always goes to "the Jew first." Romans, I&II Corinthians, Galations, I and II Thessalonians, I Timothy were written when he was teaching "Israel's Hope" and that's what the believers of that time were looking forward to - entering the time of the Book of Revelation - the Kingdom was at hand, He was coming back shortly to rule. He was coming back shortly to take his rightful place on the throne of David and Rule the Nations. The Gentiles were blessed to be grafted into the Olive tree (Romans) and were blessed and graced to be able to share in Israel's inheritance after being "aliens and strangers" from the promises and covenants of Israel. So, yes those are all the same incident and the Gentiles get to hang with Israel and share in Israel's hope during the "Acts period" as I will call it.
So now, what is the answer for the Christian? We're told we need to be faithful, we're saved by our works, then we're told its grace, then we're..., etc. How do you tell them what they will go through if this is all one continuous administration? How do you reconcile these difficulties?
I have thoughts, but I'd like to hear yours.
And Sunesis has pointed out some interesting things from the Gospels and Acts that speak to the Tribulation, the beginning of the "church which is his body" and the progressive revelation that IS the Bible.
The eschatological time table from Daniel helps here (as well as Jesus' comments on it, his incomplete knowledge of the future (I'm gonna get a fight on this one...) and how the book of Acts portrays things).
And Sunesis has pointed out some interesting things from the Gospels and Acts that speak to the Tribulation, the beginning of the "church which is his body" and the progressive revelation that IS the Bible.
The eschatological time table from Daniel helps here (as well as Jesus' comments on it, his incomplete knowledge of the future (I'm gonna get a fight on this one...) and how the book of Acts portrays things).
Bob
I don't know about a fight Bob,hehehe, just say "BOO" anytime you feel the need.
I brought it to your attention because I caught that you had dispensational issues even though I didn't know exactly what they are, but I am expecting an interesting conversation from you Bob.
I am glad you bumped this one because I feel I've been sitting on it for a long time.
Jeff, I agree, the return and resurrection in Matthew, Thessalonians and Christ's return in Revelation are all the same event.
You realize the implications of this now do you not? If they are the same event, then there is no "rapture" or "gathering together."
If this is so, then Christians have been fed a lie.
Wouldn't be the first time Christians have been fed a lie Sunesis.
Within academic circles I am certain that Christian doctrines are much more varied on the topic that certain popular movies may have us believe though.
More to even just protestantism than Darby/Scofield.
If, as many believe, the OT prophecies go into Matthew into the age of grace into the book of Revelation. This means, we will go through the tribulation as the event of Christ's return comes AFTER the tribulation and wrath. If its all the same dispensation/administration, let's all hope we have enough oil in our lamps when He does appear, and after all the destruction, those still standing after the tribulation and wrath - the survivors - will go out to meet him in the air when he comes.
What a bleak, dreary, awful hope for a Christian - to know they are going through the 7 year tribulation and wrath, thus, prepare to hang tough.
What, too bleak for us Christians but ok as long as it's just Israel and the unbelievers that go through it!?
Paul told us to not get high minded about being gentiles that were grafted into the tree of Israel's promises, and that was centuries before us gentiles fabricated (my assertion) not only a better hope, but a heavenly calling that leaves Israel eating dirt and us in the heavenlies. IMO that doctrine is the EPITOME OF HIGHMINDEDNESS.
You need to look at - what was the early Jewish Christians and new Hellenistic/Gentile Christians' Hope? It was "Israel's Hope" as Paul states in Acts 26. He states he is in bonds for the "Hope of Israel." He teaches "nothing but what Moses, the Law and the Prophets teach." He always goes to "the Jew first." Romans, I&II Corinthians, Galations, I and II Thessalonians, I Timothy were written when he was teaching "Israel's Hope" and that's what the believers of that time were looking forward to - entering the time of the Book of Revelation - the Kingdom was at hand, He was coming back shortly to rule. He was coming back shortly to take his rightful place on the throne of David and Rule the Nations. The Gentiles were blessed to be grafted into the Olive tree (Romans) and were blessed and graced to be able to share in Israel's inheritance after being "aliens and strangers" from the promises and covenants of Israel. So, yes those are all the same incident and the Gentiles get to hang with Israel and share in Israel's hope during the "Acts period" as I will call it.
So now, what is the answer for the Christian? We're told we need to be faithful, we're saved by our works, then we're told its grace, then we're..., etc. How do you tell them what they will go through if this is all one continuous administration? How do you reconcile these difficulties?
That's a very tall order for me Sunesis, but hopefully we can explore these things here.
I have thoughts, but I'd like to hear yours.
How is this as a couple of thoughts.
We as gentiles are saved through faith in the grace of Christ(The MESSIAH).
Faith without works is dead.
This one I used in my post#47.....
HEBREWS10:
9 Then said he , Lo , I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool .
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified .
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before ,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say , his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised )
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching .
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye , shall he be thought worthy , who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified , an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said , Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense , saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
In these verses I find both confidence to enter into the "holy of holies" and consequences for wickedness. IMO it is no easy thing to work out, but if we are still breathing, you know?
Thanks for your thoughts Jeff. I can see we disagree on some things.
I do not consider consider the mystery and the one body whose citizenship is in heaven "highmindedness." Why? Because the one body is for JEW and Gentile - if the Jew so desires and accepts Christ. There is no highmindedness in that - only grace.
During the Acts period, the Gentile believers were still "second class" citizens. The wall in the temple was still up which separated them from their fellow believers - the Jew could enter the inner court and the Hellenistic believer had to wait outside. As Paul said - the "Jew First."
For centuries, according to the flesh, the Jew was God's chosen people. Whether the Jew believed God or not, he was Gods. The finest, most gracious gentile was still a dog in the flesh while the most vile Jew was holy. Israel's blessings to come are the whole earth and the heavenly Jerusalem come down from heaven.
In the FLESH and on the EARTH - the blessings belong to one group - Israel. Talk about some highmindedness that may have caused - for a Jew.
Now, in the Millenium, the Jew comes into his inheritence and blessing - the earth is theirs, they rule with Christ over the nations. They are his servants and priests.
The reason the Gentile and Jew - but mainly Gentile now as Israel refused to believe what God had sent - his Son - with all attendant signs, wonders and miracles - are seated in the Heavenlies and their blessings will be enjoyed in heavenly places is because: The earthly blessings belong to Israel.
That slot is already filled, so to speak, by the Jew.
The Gentile cannot take the Jew's place or inheritance.
Thus, the Gentiles' slot and blessing must be somewhere else - and it is - the heavenlies.
Jeff, you have appropriated Israel's promises, and promises to the Jews - to yourself. I think that is a grave error the church has and is making more and more.
You know, I used to wonder why so many believers are so thrilled about entering into the millenium on earth and discount Paul. I pondered on it for a long time until it hit me - they are so excited because, that is where they are going.
Not all Christians believe Paul's revelation of the mystery as revealed in his prison epistles - and that is their right. "Be it unto you according to your faith (believing)." But many do believe.
But, there are some, who heed Paul's revelation, the Mystery, the "fullness" of the revelation given to Paul after Israel rejects its Messiah. Israel are now "Lo-Ammi" - not my people, and Christ now heads the body, this new man and is building a new creation for his habitation in the heavenly places.
Some, in this age of grace, as they line up going to the earthly Kingdom, heard another call.
Be it unto you according to your believing. Just as Abraham believed God when God showed him the multitude of stars and said, so shall your seed be, and because he believed he was counted righteous, so Paul, when he believed God's revelation given to him about a new creation/body in a place, not of the earth nor of the flesh (for that is Israel's inheritance), but of a place for a new creation in the heavenlies - Paul believed. And was translated from the Kingdom to the Heavenlies.
There are bodies terrestial and bodies celestial. Israel will have their new eternal bodies for habitation on the earth and the new earth - eternal bodies terrestial. The church, the one body shall have its body - celestial - fit for habitation in a new heaven. Just as there are different families on earth and heaven, so there will be to come with some changes and additions.
So, whether we agree or disagree, I see no highmindedness. I see different dispensations and different families and different dwellings - In my father's mansion are many dwellings, I go to prepare a place for you.
I kind of get the feeling I should go sit somewhere else. The ideas I have about the subject are being ruled out one at a time, so there really isn't any point to bringing them up.
The last verse Sunesis quoted is the key to understanding who we are
I don't know about a fight Bob,hehehe, just say "BOO" anytime you feel the need.
I brought it to your attention because I caught that you had dispensational issues even though I didn't know exactly what they are, but I am expecting an interesting conversation from you Bob.
I am glad you bumped this one because I feel I've been sitting on it for a long time.
Jeff,
I don't have "issues" as much as I have perspective (PreTrib/Premilennial). As you may gather, I'm going to say that there is a difference between a resurrection (the bringing of someone dead to life again (with bones, skin and life (see Ezekiel 37, etc.) and a "rapture" (from the Latin (Vulgate rendering) "rapturo" (for "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17) and that there is evidence for the differences. VP, BTW, tried to show the difference between an "exanestasis" (out resurrection in Philippians 3:11) and a "anastasis" (plain vanilla resurrection all other verses related to the subject). A hapax (one time usage) is not something one should develope a theology from. But this is not the standard dispy view.
The differences between "how" a resurrection versus a "rapture" are obviated. Outside of the Thessalonians record there is no "meeting in the air" in any resurrection record. The Greek term for "to meet" itself lends some weight to the dispy position (I'll post a good article if people care).
Suffice to say there's a lot more to the position of the dispys than VP explicated; much more. Add a Unitarian position on top and you have a recipe for really understanding (for the first time five years ago for me) the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24, 25; Mark 13 and Luke 21) where Jesus speaks of "this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled" and other things that did not come to pass quite the way we might have supposed. If he were God, I would be a Preterist.
" I think now that the resurrection of the just IS THE SAME AS THE resurrection of the just."
don't we all?
get some sleep guy...
You might want to go back and read post #55 again, Gen-2. I couldn't figure out what you were writing about in post #56 until I went back and looked. You've conflated something Jeff wrote in post #55 with the fact that he also quoted me in that same post.
Here's one way I look at time. If you could take a spherical object like a basketball, and move it through a plane, and only see the intersection, it would first look like a point, then like a circle expanding until it reached its maximum size. Then the circle would start contracting until it became a point again, and then disappeared. I think "eternity" is somewhere outside the intersection, but for the time being, human consciousness is limited to the intersection. It seems to me that people who argue God can't have foreknowledge are limiting God's perspective to the human point of view.
You might want to go back and read post #55 again, Gen-2. I couldn't figure out what you were writing about in post #56 until I went back and looked. You've conflated something Jeff wrote in post #55 with the fact that he also quoted me in that same post.
Here's one way I look at time. If you could take a spherical object like a basketball, and move it through a plane, and only see the intersection, it would first look like a point, then like a circle expanding until it reached its maximum size. Then the circle would start contracting until it became a point again, and then disappeared. I think "eternity" is somewhere outside the intersection, but for the time being, human consciousness is limited to the intersection. It seems to me that people who argue God can't have foreknowledge are limiting God's perspective to the human point of view.
Love,
Steve
Basically I just screwed up and put the wrong name there is all, sorry.
Old film was 24 frames per second. I've heard professors explain time like your ball but in the film example, they say it's like watching that one frame as the film plays, race past you; that single film cell being a moment of time in a linear progression.
Time is just one factor involved in Eternity, because Time and Space are interwoven, and just as our vision of time is muted where we only see the current frame we also only see the current place (out of all the places there are). There are an infinite number of "Places" and each experiences "Time".
When Jesus said he was going to prepare a place for us,... well,.............. There's a place for each of us, reserved according to our names, and each of us will have our own place, our own universe, and within it we will take up the family business. We're going to be just like our Dad. Although only he will be God, we're going to be a LOT more like him than you have imagined.
God tried this with the angels once, on a small scale, the three archangels whose names have ever since been associated with an inner planet. The prize was earth and the winner found himself in Paradise. In the end he rebelled.
We're made better than angels. This is also true of those who died as adoptive kids, whom God loves, But those children will be Earthbound - we will not be. I have to be in the lab today but I'll bring the laptop and try to keep an eye on the posts.
Old film was 24 frames per second. I've heard professors explain time like your ball but in the film example, they say it's like watching that one frame as the film plays, race past you; that single film cell being a moment of time in a linear progression.
Time is just one factor involved in Eternity, because Time and Space are interwoven, and just as our vision of time is muted where we only see the current frame we also only see the current place (out of all the places there are). There are an infinite number of "Places" and each experiences "Time".
When Jesus said he was going to prepare a place for us,... well,.............. There's a place for each of us, reserved according to our names, and each of us will have our own place, our own universe, and within it we will take up the family business. We're going to be just like our Dad. Although only he will be God, we're going to be a LOT more like him than you have imagined.
God tried this with the angels once, on a small scale, the three archangels whose names have ever since been associated with an inner planet. The prize was earth and the winner found himself in Paradise. In the end he rebelled.
We're made better than angels. This is also true of those who died as adoptive kids, whom God loves, But those children will be Earthbound - we will not be. I have to be in the lab today but I'll bring the laptop and try to keep an eye on the posts.
Gen,
You've said a Biblical mouthful (W/O BTW using one C/V!!). Touché. How much have you read on the "sons of god" subject and where (if you don’t mind)? I have some researchers and sites that I've begun to trust over the years on it (People with near eastern language background much the same as myself, but with deeper philological and theological pockets). And then there's my own work on the subject... This issue has the means to clear up a lot of fluff and feathers from the "beginnings" to the "end of all things" and a lot in between. I don't mean to be vague, but it is a subject that a lot of people don't really want to tackle, discuss or see showing up in forums.
I'm tracking all that you say above and concur with most of it. The "life and times of Lucifer (or insert one of the many other names) the antagonist" has changed a lot for me over the last 10 years as I understood more of the time table of his fall (not yet, IMHO, and that’s another thread entirely) and the "divine council", the "gods" and the "sons of god". Should you care to discuss this I'll send you some links or papers.
As for Jesus preparing a place for “us” (John 14 context); in his “Father’s house” with the many “places to stay”, I must say that he was speaking to Jews and that before Pentecost 28 CE. This means a lot (or little for those who conflate dispensations…) and has ramifications for the “heavenly Jerusalem”, that “city whose Architect and Builder is God” (gotta’ love those engineering references in the Bible) and the Christian’s part in ETERNITY (Oh, how I despise that very unbiblical word…lets say the Christian’s part in the coming “ages”).
That place is not necessarily where Christians will dwell although we will be with Jesus (“so shall we ever be with the Lord”) and he might visit, eh? Point is, we will soooo be like our Dad and his “firstborn from the dead” (“firstborn of many brethren (godlets forever!)” – Romans 8 context is so chock-full of references to the subject broached by you above…it’s astounding!).
I really enjoy everyone's perspectives and posts here. For a youngster - Gen, you sure have a lot of wisdom.
I love everyone's take on time and eternity because I am not "scientifically" or mathematically endowed.
My sister asked me one time, well, how can Christ be reigning on earth, yet be our head in the heavenlies. I thought and said, string theory or quantum mechanics. We know now an atom can be two things at once. We also know the particle can be two places at the same time. I said, it must have something to do with that.
I am enjoying the input - interesting to see where God and Christ has led us each after TWI. And - surprise - its all a bit different for each one of us.
You've said a Biblical mouthful (W/O BTW using one C/V!!). Touché. How much have you read on the "sons of god" subject and where (if you don't mind)? I have some researchers and sites that I've begun to trust over the years on it (People with near eastern language background much the same as myself, but with deeper philological and theological pockets). And then there's my own work on the subject... This issue has the means to clear up a lot of fluff and feathers from the "beginnings" to the "end of all things" and a lot in between. I don't mean to be vague, but it is a subject that a lot of people don't really want to tackle, discuss or see showing up in forums.
I'm tracking all that you say above and concur with most of it. The "life and times of Lucifer (or insert one of the many other names) the antagonist" has changed a lot for me over the last 10 years as I understood more of the time table of his fall (not yet, IMHO, and that's another thread entirely) and the "divine council", the "gods" and the "sons of god". Should you care to discuss this I'll send you some links or papers.
As for Jesus preparing a place for "us" (John 14 context); in his "Father's house" with the many "places to stay", I must say that he was speaking to Jews and that before Pentecost 28 CE. This means a lot (or little for those who conflate dispensations…) and has ramifications for the "heavenly Jerusalem", that "city whose Architect and Builder is God" (gotta' love those engineering references in the Bible) and the Christian's part in ETERNITY (Oh, how I despise that very unbiblical word…lets say the Christian's part in the coming "ages").
That place is not necessarily where Christians will dwell although we will be with Jesus ("so shall we ever be with the Lord") and he might visit, eh? Point is, we will soooo be like our Dad and his "firstborn from the dead" ("firstborn of many brethren (godlets forever!)" – Romans 8 context is so chock-full of references to the subject broached by you above…it's astounding!).
Enough for now.
Bob
As for Jesus preparing a place for "us" (John 14 context); in his "Father's house" with the many "places to stay", I must say that he was speaking to Jews and that before Pentecost 28 CE. This means a lot (or little for those who conflate dispensations…) and has ramifications for the "heavenly Jerusalem", that "city whose Architect and Builder is God" (gotta' love those engineering references in the Bible) and the Christian's part in ETERNITY (Oh, how I despise that very unbiblical word…lets say the Christian's part in the coming "ages").
---------------------------------------
Indeed it is talking about the Jews (and what's a C.V.?), yet it's quite instructional as he's talking about the New Jerusalem. You're right, and that is a place. Yet he just happens to mention that there are many Mansions, abodes,... whatever, before he gets specific with them about that one place which he will prepare for them. Jesus isn't going to prepare our places. But God's natural born children, born of the spirit, are not going to be homeless either - and they are not going to steal the bride's house - it belongs to the bride and the bridegroom
As to Lucifer. In the past he was the light of this world, he was the bright and morning star. When Christ sits in the New Jerusalem - he, the Lamb, shall be the light of it and Lucifer shall be gone. I presume from a verse in Ezekiel that Lucifer kills himself and that the lake of fire is not eternally in existance. Lucifer was originally responsible for Venus, Michael for Mars, and Gabriel for Mercury the one that showed the most skill and aptitude in developing his world was given the prize. Lucifer won and the Earth was his. His charge was to develop a being that could understand and believe God's word. He spent a long time on this project, with many failures and wrong turns along the way. He has always been in charge of one third of the angels. They worked with him towards Lucifers goal, both before and after he received the paradise of Earth as a prize He was perfect in all his ways. Eventually he "pushed" a mammal and that mammal turned out to be the ticket. It began to understand God and could grasp spiritual concepts. It could see the cosmos and know there must be a creator. it began to worship.
This inscensed Lucifer. After all the hard work he had worked after the billions of years, he was not going to simply turn this prototype, finally all but complete, over to God. He knew God would favor this creature and He would have actual Sons through them. Sons he would favor more than Lucifer.
He would NOT have this, and he rebelled - wanting the worship of that man for himself. He rebelled along with those who had worked with him and become loyal to Lucifer more than to God. There was war in heaven and Lucifer lost. The windows of heaven broke loose and the whole of space was overflowed with water. everything in existance perished. the light of the world was gone and without it the firmament collapsed. Light forces the waters of the deep back to their set bounds beyond our universe.
God shook the Etch-A-Sketch and began over, This time he just went straight to putting man on the earth after cleaning up the mess. On his belly the serpent went, completely humiliated as he saw God do it all in six days.
The sons of men/god that you mentioned is still a subject that depends on what you're looking at.
That "so shall we ever be with the Lord" doesn't mean place but manner. check it out again but in what manner will we ever be with the lord? I know people that think we're just eternal Body parts of the only begotten sonand that New Jerusalem is the only place that there's going to be in the future. Understanding this correctly allows you to see why the Bema is different.
There's a danger in blowing off the administrations. In thinking that the gathering is the same as the resurrection of the just. It makes Christ's first coming of little effect and you'll never understand the Bema throne, But God holds to accountability. While He will not harm a one of his children. Those who did wrong will be punished in that there will be consequences for bad behavior in the nursery (our time now). There's also a danger in getting into all this dispensation stuff. God doesn't count dispensations, people do. God count's times, ages - eons. God knows how people see though and tries to relate some concepts to us. Some things are easier for us to understand as knowledge increases.
The main reason that Genesis 1:2 IS SO MESSED UP in the minds of many is because of how people used to view the world.
I have another experiment soon and have to go I don't have time to put all the verses, or explain why all that's of God - maybe some other day, but anyone can figure it all out on their own if they want to. I don't do books. And if you think it's all hooey,... well --- okay. Your call to make isn't it?
I really enjoy everyone's perspectives and posts here. For a youngster - Gen, you sure have a lot of wisdom.
I love everyone's take on time and eternity because I am not "scientifically" or mathematically endowed.
My sister asked me one time, well, how can Christ be reigning on earth, yet be our head in the heavenlies. I thought and said, string theory or quantum mechanics. We know now an atom can be two things at once. We also know the particle can be two places at the same time. I said, it must have something to do with that.
I am enjoying the input - interesting to see where God and Christ has led us each after TWI. And - surprise - its all a bit different for each one of us.
I just had to cut back to answer this one. and I've gotten weird looks enough in the past wjhen I get excited about a subject, to learn and to maybe to explain this right so I don't sound like a Nut
An electron circles the Nucleus of an Atom. Around it goes at the speed of light. pretty fast! we talk about "an electron cloud" it looks like a shellrather than a single electron. An electron can be a particle or a wave. it can disappear and reappear. We presume that when it is not around it's atom - it's around another Atom in another dimension. But if it leaves ours, one from another dimension appears in it's place. pretty cool eh? Apparently the little electrons just know where to be,... and go there, wherever they are needed.
Eternity is plural (The idea is plural) so perhaps the word Eternity is a bad word, since it's singular -
Heavenlies are places. Ages are times. God sees them all at once.
Thanks for your thoughts Jeff. I can see we disagree on some things.
That ok with me that we disagree Sunesis. To me this is soooo much better than having uniformity of beliefs crammed down my throat by trained enforcers that have been raised up by pathological liars, etc.
I do not consider consider the mystery and the one body whose citizenship is in heaven "highmindedness." Why? Because the one body is for JEW and Gentile - if the Jew so desires and accepts Christ. There is no highmindedness in that - only grace.
During the Acts period, the Gentile believers were still "second class" citizens. The wall in the temple was still up which separated them from their fellow believers - the Jew could enter the inner court and the Hellenistic believer had to wait outside. As Paul said - the "Jew First."
For centuries, according to the flesh, the Jew was God's chosen people. Whether the Jew believed God or not, he was Gods. The finest, most gracious gentile was still a dog in the flesh while the most vile Jew was holy. Israel's blessings to come are the whole earth and the heavenly Jerusalem come down from heaven.
In the FLESH and on the EARTH - the blessings belong to one group - Israel. Talk about some highmindedness that may have caused - for a Jew.
Now, in the Millenium, the Jew comes into his inheritence and blessing - the earth is theirs, they rule with Christ over the nations. They are his servants and priests.
The reason the Gentile and Jew - but mainly Gentile now as Israel refused to believe what God had sent - his Son - with all attendant signs, wonders and miracles - are seated in the Heavenlies and their blessings will be enjoyed in heavenly places is because: The earthly blessings belong to Israel.
That slot is already filled, so to speak, by the Jew.
The Gentile cannot take the Jew's place or inheritance.
Thus, the Gentiles' slot and blessing must be somewhere else - and it is - the heavenlies.
I am familiar with the story line Sunesis, and for the direction this thread has gone I see only good coming from posting it out here like you did so that we can consider the matter. :)
One of my main consideration and/or endeavor is to compare a storyline like the one that you share with what the scriptures actually say.
And even if we were misled by The Way, I am one of those folks who continues to appreciate learning how to comare beliefs with what the scriptures say and doing my best to evaluate all things.
And for the record, I don't think you are highminded Sunesis but I do believe that the doctrine of the supposed mystery as we've been taught is actually the product of unwise highmindedness and tends to produce the same.
Romans ch8: (everything in KJV from here on out)
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off , and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast , thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off , that I might be graffed in .
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off , and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded , but fear :
21 For if God spared not the natural branches , take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell , severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off .
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in : for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in .
26 And so all Israel shall be saved : as it is written , There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer , and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
I think it is unwise to think that Paul hadn't understood our supposed mystery when he wrote Romans.
After reading these verses I conclude that as a gentile believer that Paul warns me to not think that I am in any way immune to what happened to the portion of Israel that has been blinded, albeit temporarily so. Heck he directly says that it is no problem to graft them back in again, even saying if we don't continue in His Goodness, "otherwise thou also shalt be cut off", pretty direct warning, yes?
And as concerning vs. 25, 26, & 27, ISN'T THIS THE EXACT SAME THING WE HAVE IN CHRIST? We appropriate Christ w/in the new covenant taking away our sin easy enough, heck, most people consider that truth as Christianity 101, but here Paul say THE EXACT SAME BLESSINGS ARE YET TO COME TO ISRAEL AS A WHOLE.
Jeff, you have appropriated Israel's promises, and promises to the Jews - to yourself. I think that is a grave error the church has and is making more and more.
Didn't I just show not only that we have appropriated God's promise to Israel, but also that God will yet give the exact same blessing to Israel as a whole?
You know, I used to wonder why so many believers are so thrilled about entering into the millenium on earth and discount Paul. I pondered on it for a long time until it hit me - they are so excited because, that is where they are going.
Not all Christians believe Paul's revelation of the mystery as revealed in his prison epistles - and that is their right. "Be it unto you according to your faith (believing)." But many do believe.
But, there are some, who heed Paul's revelation, the Mystery, the "fullness" of the revelation given to Paul after Israel rejects its Messiah. Israel are now "Lo-Ammi" - not my people, and Christ now heads the body, this new man and is building a new creation for his habitation in the heavenly places.
Some, in this age of grace, as they line up going to the earthly Kingdom, heard another call.
Be it unto you according to your believing. Just as Abraham believed God when God showed him the multitude of stars and said, so shall your seed be, and because he believed he was counted righteous, so Paul, when he believed God's revelation given to him about a new creation/body in a place, not of the earth nor of the flesh (for that is Israel's inheritance), but of a place for a new creation in the heavenlies - Paul believed. And was translated from the Kingdom to the Heavenlies.
There are bodies terrestial and bodies celestial. Israel will have their new eternal bodies for habitation on the earth and the new earth - eternal bodies terrestial. The church, the one body shall have its body - celestial - fit for habitation in a new heaven. Just as there are different families on earth and heaven, so there will be to come with some changes and additions.
Check out verse 42....IT IS THE CHILDREN OF THE RESURRECTION THAT GET THE HEAVENLY/SPIRITUAL BODY! The earthly body we all have, now in this age, BUT THE HEAVENLY BODIES BELONG TO THE CHILDREN OF THE RESURRECTION.
And one more consideration, if Paul didn't want the Corinthians to actually look forward to their heavenly bodies without the resurrection then what was he doing teaching the believers about the resurrection soooo darn much?
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him , and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men , another flesh of beasts , another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
So, whether we agree or disagree, I see no highmindedness. I see different dispensations and different families and different dwellings - In my father's mansion are many dwellings, I go to prepare a place for you.
Yep, many families/mansions. But that doesn't mean we can go all willy-nilly and decide how it will look without at least one apostle or prophet actually saying it directly, right?
That place is not necessarily where Christians will dwell although we will be with Jesus ("so shall we ever be with the Lord") and he might visit, eh? Point is, we will soooo be like our Dad and his "firstborn from the dead" ("firstborn of many brethren (godlets forever!)" – Romans 8 context is so chock-full of references to the subject broached by you above…it's astounding!).
Enough for now.
Bob
So, what is that like? Meaning.....we will be *what* like our Dad? Just following along and curious. .. it is a vague reference. What attributes of God do you mean? HOW will we be as Gods?
Will be as holy as God? All knowing as God? As powerful as God? Seriously, I am GENUINELY interested in what you believe about sharing in God's glory.
You too Gen-2 curious what about God....we will be like? There has to be specifics....when we rule our own universe will we be worshiped? Or is it like sub-contracting? Seriously curious...what it is you believe.
We know what God is like? Right? What does it MEAN to be glorified?
I don't have "issues" as much as I have perspective (PreTrib/Premilennial). As you may gather, I'm going to say that there is a difference between a resurrection (the bringing of someone dead to life again (with bones, skin and life (see Ezekiel 37, etc.) and a "rapture" (from the Latin (Vulgate rendering) "rapturo" (for "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17) and that there is evidence for the differences. VP, BTW, tried to show the difference between an "exanestasis" (out resurrection in Philippians 3:11) and a "anastasis" (plain vanilla resurrection all other verses related to the subject). A hapax (one time usage) is not something one should develope a theology from. But this is not the standard dispy view.
The differences between "how" a resurrection versus a "rapture" are obviated. Outside of the Thessalonians record there is no "meeting in the air" in any resurrection record. The Greek term for "to meet" itself lends some weight to the dispy position (I'll post a good article if people care).
Suffice to say there's a lot more to the position of the dispys than VP explicated; much more. Add a Unitarian position on top and you have a recipe for really understanding (for the first time five years ago for me) the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24, 25; Mark 13 and Luke 21) where Jesus speaks of "this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled" and other things that did not come to pass quite the way we might have supposed. If he were God, I would be a Preterist.
More later....taxes call.
Bob
RE
I'm looking forward to seeing what you want to share Bob.
And for the record, I hear what you are saying about "issues" vs. "perspective" and I certainly didn't mean any of the bad implications that can go along with the word "issues". I prefer not to do that subtle, passive aggressive type of stuff.
Usually if I need to say something bad about any particular persons views I'll manage to do it directly at least. :B)
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cman
i am the resurrection sound familiar? the just and unjust the wheat and the tares when Christ comes it will all unfold as it has always
Gen-2
alright,..... I don't even understand Jeff's questions.
There have always been 2 resurrections. One for the just - and - one for the unjust
But there are two times when things (peoples) get gathered
The first time is when the dead in Christ shall rise, Behold I show you a mystery! and the living are changed and scoot off the meet the lord in the air, blah blah blah...
The second is the one Jesus talked about it happens on that merry olde Thief-in-the-Night day. One shall be taken one left, blah blah blah... but none of those people are dead, and it's not the gathering of the BODY I siuspect tares get gathered first etc,.... just as Jesus said,..... where's the problem? What am I missing here?
edited to add
those 2 I lumped as gatherings,... well neither of those is all dead people, so they can't be resurrections, you don't resurrect alive people.
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waysider
"Brother Thomas will be there, without a doubt."-------Phil Keaggy
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waysider
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JeffSjo
Hi Gen-2,
Let me try to clarify this, but it's all I can do tonight and I won't get back till tomorrow sometime.
I think you are right, that the resurrection is when people get up. I think we may consider the resurrection of the just and the unjust if this thread developes that way, God willing.
Wierwille taught that the "gathering together" for the body of Christ was different and preceding both resurrections. I think now that the resurrection of the just IS THE SAME AS THE resurrection of the just.
I think that the ultra-dispensationalism that seperated the "gathering together" from the resurrection is a result of reading into the scriptures an idea that is not explicitely stated and IMO is also improper "eisegesis" of the scriptures.
I think that this view fairly directly led to a group-think that allowed adultery to be ok and hashed the Word to pieces because where I see continuity Wierwille taught seperation of administrations.
Awesome for me too Steve! :)
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Gen-2
Steve,.........................
" I think now that the resurrection of the just IS THE SAME AS THE resurrection of the just."
don't we all?
get some sleep guy...
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JeffSjo
Hiya,
Let me quickly share how I felt all night when I realized that I wrote,"the resurrection of the just IS THE SAME AS THE resurrection of the just."
Here it is...........AAAAGGGGHHHHH!
I knew it made no sense but I couldn't get back till now.
What I meant to say is,(Caps are for emphasis, not for yelling)"THE GATHERING TOGETHER is the same as the resurrection of the just." But I mean that what Wierwille taught as the gathering together is the resurrection of the just.
____________________________
This is how I tie things together now from the gospels to the book of Revelation as concerning Dot Matrix' original question.
Jesus said he gathers the wheat .................and the tares.
resurrection of the just......................and the unjust.
And perhaps because I was already questioning the validity of the "Thousand Year Reign" that Revelation mentions I am suspecting that that once occuring scripture may be a deliberate addition to the text along with Dot's Baptacostal minister, but if that ends up being an accurate yet once occurring scripture I will look for better understanding, heck, it wouldn't be the first time.
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Sunesis
Jeff, I agree, the return and resurrection in Matthew, Thessalonians and Christ's return in Revelation are all the same event.
You realize the implications of this now do you not? If they are the same event, then there is no "rapture" or "gathering together."
If this is so, then Christians have been fed a lie.
If, as many believe, the OT prophecies go into Matthew into the age of grace into the book of Revelation. This means, we will go through the tribulation as the event of Christ's return comes AFTER the tribulation and wrath. If its all the same dispensation/administration, let's all hope we have enough oil in our lamps when He does appear, and after all the destruction, those still standing after the tribulation and wrath - the survivors - will go out to meet him in the air when he comes.
What a bleak, dreary, awful hope for a Christian - to know they are going through the 7 year tribulation and wrath, thus, prepare to hang tough.
You need to look at - what was the early Jewish Christians and new Hellenistic/Gentile Christians' Hope? It was "Israel's Hope" as Paul states in Acts 26. He states he is in bonds for the "Hope of Israel." He teaches "nothing but what Moses, the Law and the Prophets teach." He always goes to "the Jew first." Romans, I&II Corinthians, Galations, I and II Thessalonians, I Timothy were written when he was teaching "Israel's Hope" and that's what the believers of that time were looking forward to - entering the time of the Book of Revelation - the Kingdom was at hand, He was coming back shortly to rule. He was coming back shortly to take his rightful place on the throne of David and Rule the Nations. The Gentiles were blessed to be grafted into the Olive tree (Romans) and were blessed and graced to be able to share in Israel's inheritance after being "aliens and strangers" from the promises and covenants of Israel. So, yes those are all the same incident and the Gentiles get to hang with Israel and share in Israel's hope during the "Acts period" as I will call it.
So now, what is the answer for the Christian? We're told we need to be faithful, we're saved by our works, then we're told its grace, then we're..., etc. How do you tell them what they will go through if this is all one continuous administration? How do you reconcile these difficulties?
I have thoughts, but I'd like to hear yours.
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roberterasmus
Oh, OH, OHHHH.
Now I know why you wanted me here Jeffy. I'll chime into this ASAP (taxes don't ya know...). Suffice for this post; the ultradispensationalism of Bullinger in this area is nothing different than classic dispy thought for the last 200 years (it's not a cultish thing we're dealing with; nor eisegesis for that matter). The difference between the "resurrections" and the "rapture" (as known in dispyland) is real and Biblical. Add to that some interesting things with Jesus, while he was still alive (on earth that is) and talking about the "end" and you'll see some things, I think, that will help.
But soon, not now.
Bob
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roberterasmus
And Sunesis has pointed out some interesting things from the Gospels and Acts that speak to the Tribulation, the beginning of the "church which is his body" and the progressive revelation that IS the Bible.
The eschatological time table from Daniel helps here (as well as Jesus' comments on it, his incomplete knowledge of the future (I'm gonna get a fight on this one...) and how the book of Acts portrays things).
Bob
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JeffSjo
I don't know about a fight Bob,hehehe, just say "BOO" anytime you feel the need.
I brought it to your attention because I caught that you had dispensational issues even though I didn't know exactly what they are, but I am expecting an interesting conversation from you Bob.
I am glad you bumped this one because I feel I've been sitting on it for a long time.
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JeffSjo
Wouldn't be the first time Christians have been fed a lie Sunesis.
Within academic circles I am certain that Christian doctrines are much more varied on the topic that certain popular movies may have us believe though.
More to even just protestantism than Darby/Scofield.
What, too bleak for us Christians but ok as long as it's just Israel and the unbelievers that go through it!?
Paul told us to not get high minded about being gentiles that were grafted into the tree of Israel's promises, and that was centuries before us gentiles fabricated (my assertion) not only a better hope, but a heavenly calling that leaves Israel eating dirt and us in the heavenlies. IMO that doctrine is the EPITOME OF HIGHMINDEDNESS.
That's a very tall order for me Sunesis, but hopefully we can explore these things here.
How is this as a couple of thoughts.
We as gentiles are saved through faith in the grace of Christ(The MESSIAH).
Faith without works is dead.
This one I used in my post#47.....
HEBREWS10:
9 Then said he , Lo , I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool .
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified .
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before ,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say , his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised )
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching .
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye , shall he be thought worthy , who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified , an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said , Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense , saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
In these verses I find both confidence to enter into the "holy of holies" and consequences for wickedness. IMO it is no easy thing to work out, but if we are still breathing, you know?
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Sunesis
Thanks for your thoughts Jeff. I can see we disagree on some things.
I do not consider consider the mystery and the one body whose citizenship is in heaven "highmindedness." Why? Because the one body is for JEW and Gentile - if the Jew so desires and accepts Christ. There is no highmindedness in that - only grace.
During the Acts period, the Gentile believers were still "second class" citizens. The wall in the temple was still up which separated them from their fellow believers - the Jew could enter the inner court and the Hellenistic believer had to wait outside. As Paul said - the "Jew First."
For centuries, according to the flesh, the Jew was God's chosen people. Whether the Jew believed God or not, he was Gods. The finest, most gracious gentile was still a dog in the flesh while the most vile Jew was holy. Israel's blessings to come are the whole earth and the heavenly Jerusalem come down from heaven.
In the FLESH and on the EARTH - the blessings belong to one group - Israel. Talk about some highmindedness that may have caused - for a Jew.
Now, in the Millenium, the Jew comes into his inheritence and blessing - the earth is theirs, they rule with Christ over the nations. They are his servants and priests.
The reason the Gentile and Jew - but mainly Gentile now as Israel refused to believe what God had sent - his Son - with all attendant signs, wonders and miracles - are seated in the Heavenlies and their blessings will be enjoyed in heavenly places is because: The earthly blessings belong to Israel.
That slot is already filled, so to speak, by the Jew.
The Gentile cannot take the Jew's place or inheritance.
Thus, the Gentiles' slot and blessing must be somewhere else - and it is - the heavenlies.
Jeff, you have appropriated Israel's promises, and promises to the Jews - to yourself. I think that is a grave error the church has and is making more and more.
You know, I used to wonder why so many believers are so thrilled about entering into the millenium on earth and discount Paul. I pondered on it for a long time until it hit me - they are so excited because, that is where they are going.
Not all Christians believe Paul's revelation of the mystery as revealed in his prison epistles - and that is their right. "Be it unto you according to your faith (believing)." But many do believe.
But, there are some, who heed Paul's revelation, the Mystery, the "fullness" of the revelation given to Paul after Israel rejects its Messiah. Israel are now "Lo-Ammi" - not my people, and Christ now heads the body, this new man and is building a new creation for his habitation in the heavenly places.
Some, in this age of grace, as they line up going to the earthly Kingdom, heard another call.
Be it unto you according to your believing. Just as Abraham believed God when God showed him the multitude of stars and said, so shall your seed be, and because he believed he was counted righteous, so Paul, when he believed God's revelation given to him about a new creation/body in a place, not of the earth nor of the flesh (for that is Israel's inheritance), but of a place for a new creation in the heavenlies - Paul believed. And was translated from the Kingdom to the Heavenlies.
There are bodies terrestial and bodies celestial. Israel will have their new eternal bodies for habitation on the earth and the new earth - eternal bodies terrestial. The church, the one body shall have its body - celestial - fit for habitation in a new heaven. Just as there are different families on earth and heaven, so there will be to come with some changes and additions.
So, whether we agree or disagree, I see no highmindedness. I see different dispensations and different families and different dwellings - In my father's mansion are many dwellings, I go to prepare a place for you.
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Gen-2
I kind of get the feeling I should go sit somewhere else. The ideas I have about the subject are being ruled out one at a time, so there really isn't any point to bringing them up.
The last verse Sunesis quoted is the key to understanding who we are
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roberterasmus
Jeff,
I don't have "issues" as much as I have perspective (PreTrib/Premilennial). As you may gather, I'm going to say that there is a difference between a resurrection (the bringing of someone dead to life again (with bones, skin and life (see Ezekiel 37, etc.) and a "rapture" (from the Latin (Vulgate rendering) "rapturo" (for "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17) and that there is evidence for the differences. VP, BTW, tried to show the difference between an "exanestasis" (out resurrection in Philippians 3:11) and a "anastasis" (plain vanilla resurrection all other verses related to the subject). A hapax (one time usage) is not something one should develope a theology from. But this is not the standard dispy view.
The differences between "how" a resurrection versus a "rapture" are obviated. Outside of the Thessalonians record there is no "meeting in the air" in any resurrection record. The Greek term for "to meet" itself lends some weight to the dispy position (I'll post a good article if people care).
Suffice to say there's a lot more to the position of the dispys than VP explicated; much more. Add a Unitarian position on top and you have a recipe for really understanding (for the first time five years ago for me) the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24, 25; Mark 13 and Luke 21) where Jesus speaks of "this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled" and other things that did not come to pass quite the way we might have supposed. If he were God, I would be a Preterist.
More later....taxes call.
Bob
RE
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Steve Lortz
You might want to go back and read post #55 again, Gen-2. I couldn't figure out what you were writing about in post #56 until I went back and looked. You've conflated something Jeff wrote in post #55 with the fact that he also quoted me in that same post.
Here's one way I look at time. If you could take a spherical object like a basketball, and move it through a plane, and only see the intersection, it would first look like a point, then like a circle expanding until it reached its maximum size. Then the circle would start contracting until it became a point again, and then disappeared. I think "eternity" is somewhere outside the intersection, but for the time being, human consciousness is limited to the intersection. It seems to me that people who argue God can't have foreknowledge are limiting God's perspective to the human point of view.
Love,
Steve
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Gen-2
Basically I just screwed up and put the wrong name there is all, sorry.
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Gen-2
Old film was 24 frames per second. I've heard professors explain time like your ball but in the film example, they say it's like watching that one frame as the film plays, race past you; that single film cell being a moment of time in a linear progression.
Time is just one factor involved in Eternity, because Time and Space are interwoven, and just as our vision of time is muted where we only see the current frame we also only see the current place (out of all the places there are). There are an infinite number of "Places" and each experiences "Time".
When Jesus said he was going to prepare a place for us,... well,.............. There's a place for each of us, reserved according to our names, and each of us will have our own place, our own universe, and within it we will take up the family business. We're going to be just like our Dad. Although only he will be God, we're going to be a LOT more like him than you have imagined.
God tried this with the angels once, on a small scale, the three archangels whose names have ever since been associated with an inner planet. The prize was earth and the winner found himself in Paradise. In the end he rebelled.
We're made better than angels. This is also true of those who died as adoptive kids, whom God loves, But those children will be Earthbound - we will not be. I have to be in the lab today but I'll bring the laptop and try to keep an eye on the posts.
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roberterasmus
Gen,
You've said a Biblical mouthful (W/O BTW using one C/V!!). Touché. How much have you read on the "sons of god" subject and where (if you don’t mind)? I have some researchers and sites that I've begun to trust over the years on it (People with near eastern language background much the same as myself, but with deeper philological and theological pockets). And then there's my own work on the subject... This issue has the means to clear up a lot of fluff and feathers from the "beginnings" to the "end of all things" and a lot in between. I don't mean to be vague, but it is a subject that a lot of people don't really want to tackle, discuss or see showing up in forums.
I'm tracking all that you say above and concur with most of it. The "life and times of Lucifer (or insert one of the many other names) the antagonist" has changed a lot for me over the last 10 years as I understood more of the time table of his fall (not yet, IMHO, and that’s another thread entirely) and the "divine council", the "gods" and the "sons of god". Should you care to discuss this I'll send you some links or papers.
As for Jesus preparing a place for “us” (John 14 context); in his “Father’s house” with the many “places to stay”, I must say that he was speaking to Jews and that before Pentecost 28 CE. This means a lot (or little for those who conflate dispensations…) and has ramifications for the “heavenly Jerusalem”, that “city whose Architect and Builder is God” (gotta’ love those engineering references in the Bible) and the Christian’s part in ETERNITY (Oh, how I despise that very unbiblical word…lets say the Christian’s part in the coming “ages”).
That place is not necessarily where Christians will dwell although we will be with Jesus (“so shall we ever be with the Lord”) and he might visit, eh? Point is, we will soooo be like our Dad and his “firstborn from the dead” (“firstborn of many brethren (godlets forever!)” – Romans 8 context is so chock-full of references to the subject broached by you above…it’s astounding!).
Enough for now.
Bob
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Sunesis
I really enjoy everyone's perspectives and posts here. For a youngster - Gen, you sure have a lot of wisdom.
I love everyone's take on time and eternity because I am not "scientifically" or mathematically endowed.
My sister asked me one time, well, how can Christ be reigning on earth, yet be our head in the heavenlies. I thought and said, string theory or quantum mechanics. We know now an atom can be two things at once. We also know the particle can be two places at the same time. I said, it must have something to do with that.
I am enjoying the input - interesting to see where God and Christ has led us each after TWI. And - surprise - its all a bit different for each one of us.
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Gen-2
As for Jesus preparing a place for "us" (John 14 context); in his "Father's house" with the many "places to stay", I must say that he was speaking to Jews and that before Pentecost 28 CE. This means a lot (or little for those who conflate dispensations…) and has ramifications for the "heavenly Jerusalem", that "city whose Architect and Builder is God" (gotta' love those engineering references in the Bible) and the Christian's part in ETERNITY (Oh, how I despise that very unbiblical word…lets say the Christian's part in the coming "ages").
---------------------------------------
Indeed it is talking about the Jews (and what's a C.V.?), yet it's quite instructional as he's talking about the New Jerusalem. You're right, and that is a place. Yet he just happens to mention that there are many Mansions, abodes,... whatever, before he gets specific with them about that one place which he will prepare for them. Jesus isn't going to prepare our places. But God's natural born children, born of the spirit, are not going to be homeless either - and they are not going to steal the bride's house - it belongs to the bride and the bridegroom
As to Lucifer. In the past he was the light of this world, he was the bright and morning star. When Christ sits in the New Jerusalem - he, the Lamb, shall be the light of it and Lucifer shall be gone. I presume from a verse in Ezekiel that Lucifer kills himself and that the lake of fire is not eternally in existance. Lucifer was originally responsible for Venus, Michael for Mars, and Gabriel for Mercury the one that showed the most skill and aptitude in developing his world was given the prize. Lucifer won and the Earth was his. His charge was to develop a being that could understand and believe God's word. He spent a long time on this project, with many failures and wrong turns along the way. He has always been in charge of one third of the angels. They worked with him towards Lucifers goal, both before and after he received the paradise of Earth as a prize He was perfect in all his ways. Eventually he "pushed" a mammal and that mammal turned out to be the ticket. It began to understand God and could grasp spiritual concepts. It could see the cosmos and know there must be a creator. it began to worship.
This inscensed Lucifer. After all the hard work he had worked after the billions of years, he was not going to simply turn this prototype, finally all but complete, over to God. He knew God would favor this creature and He would have actual Sons through them. Sons he would favor more than Lucifer.
He would NOT have this, and he rebelled - wanting the worship of that man for himself. He rebelled along with those who had worked with him and become loyal to Lucifer more than to God. There was war in heaven and Lucifer lost. The windows of heaven broke loose and the whole of space was overflowed with water. everything in existance perished. the light of the world was gone and without it the firmament collapsed. Light forces the waters of the deep back to their set bounds beyond our universe.
God shook the Etch-A-Sketch and began over, This time he just went straight to putting man on the earth after cleaning up the mess. On his belly the serpent went, completely humiliated as he saw God do it all in six days.
The sons of men/god that you mentioned is still a subject that depends on what you're looking at.
That "so shall we ever be with the Lord" doesn't mean place but manner. check it out again but in what manner will we ever be with the lord? I know people that think we're just eternal Body parts of the only begotten sonand that New Jerusalem is the only place that there's going to be in the future. Understanding this correctly allows you to see why the Bema is different.
There's a danger in blowing off the administrations. In thinking that the gathering is the same as the resurrection of the just. It makes Christ's first coming of little effect and you'll never understand the Bema throne, But God holds to accountability. While He will not harm a one of his children. Those who did wrong will be punished in that there will be consequences for bad behavior in the nursery (our time now). There's also a danger in getting into all this dispensation stuff. God doesn't count dispensations, people do. God count's times, ages - eons. God knows how people see though and tries to relate some concepts to us. Some things are easier for us to understand as knowledge increases.
The main reason that Genesis 1:2 IS SO MESSED UP in the minds of many is because of how people used to view the world.
I have another experiment soon and have to go I don't have time to put all the verses, or explain why all that's of God - maybe some other day, but anyone can figure it all out on their own if they want to. I don't do books. And if you think it's all hooey,... well --- okay. Your call to make isn't it?
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Gen-2
I just had to cut back to answer this one. and I've gotten weird looks enough in the past wjhen I get excited about a subject, to learn and to maybe to explain this right so I don't sound like a Nut
An electron circles the Nucleus of an Atom. Around it goes at the speed of light. pretty fast! we talk about "an electron cloud" it looks like a shellrather than a single electron. An electron can be a particle or a wave. it can disappear and reappear. We presume that when it is not around it's atom - it's around another Atom in another dimension. But if it leaves ours, one from another dimension appears in it's place. pretty cool eh? Apparently the little electrons just know where to be,... and go there, wherever they are needed.
Eternity is plural (The idea is plural) so perhaps the word Eternity is a bad word, since it's singular -
Heavenlies are places. Ages are times. God sees them all at once.
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JeffSjo
That ok with me that we disagree Sunesis. To me this is soooo much better than having uniformity of beliefs crammed down my throat by trained enforcers that have been raised up by pathological liars, etc.
I am familiar with the story line Sunesis, and for the direction this thread has gone I see only good coming from posting it out here like you did so that we can consider the matter. :)
One of my main consideration and/or endeavor is to compare a storyline like the one that you share with what the scriptures actually say.
And even if we were misled by The Way, I am one of those folks who continues to appreciate learning how to comare beliefs with what the scriptures say and doing my best to evaluate all things.
And for the record, I don't think you are highminded Sunesis but I do believe that the doctrine of the supposed mystery as we've been taught is actually the product of unwise highmindedness and tends to produce the same.
Romans ch8: (everything in KJV from here on out)
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off , and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast , thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off , that I might be graffed in .
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off , and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded , but fear :
21 For if God spared not the natural branches , take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell , severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off .
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in : for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in .
26 And so all Israel shall be saved : as it is written , There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer , and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
I think it is unwise to think that Paul hadn't understood our supposed mystery when he wrote Romans.
After reading these verses I conclude that as a gentile believer that Paul warns me to not think that I am in any way immune to what happened to the portion of Israel that has been blinded, albeit temporarily so. Heck he directly says that it is no problem to graft them back in again, even saying if we don't continue in His Goodness, "otherwise thou also shalt be cut off", pretty direct warning, yes?
And as concerning vs. 25, 26, & 27, ISN'T THIS THE EXACT SAME THING WE HAVE IN CHRIST? We appropriate Christ w/in the new covenant taking away our sin easy enough, heck, most people consider that truth as Christianity 101, but here Paul say THE EXACT SAME BLESSINGS ARE YET TO COME TO ISRAEL AS A WHOLE.
Didn't I just show not only that we have appropriated God's promise to Israel, but also that God will yet give the exact same blessing to Israel as a whole?
Check out verse 42....IT IS THE CHILDREN OF THE RESURRECTION THAT GET THE HEAVENLY/SPIRITUAL BODY! The earthly body we all have, now in this age, BUT THE HEAVENLY BODIES BELONG TO THE CHILDREN OF THE RESURRECTION.
And one more consideration, if Paul didn't want the Corinthians to actually look forward to their heavenly bodies without the resurrection then what was he doing teaching the believers about the resurrection soooo darn much?
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him , and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men , another flesh of beasts , another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Yep, many families/mansions. But that doesn't mean we can go all willy-nilly and decide how it will look without at least one apostle or prophet actually saying it directly, right?
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geisha779
So, what is that like? Meaning.....we will be *what* like our Dad? Just following along and curious. .. it is a vague reference. What attributes of God do you mean? HOW will we be as Gods?
Will be as holy as God? All knowing as God? As powerful as God? Seriously, I am GENUINELY interested in what you believe about sharing in God's glory.
You too Gen-2 curious what about God....we will be like? There has to be specifics....when we rule our own universe will we be worshiped? Or is it like sub-contracting? Seriously curious...what it is you believe.
We know what God is like? Right? What does it MEAN to be glorified?
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JeffSjo
I'm looking forward to seeing what you want to share Bob.
And for the record, I hear what you are saying about "issues" vs. "perspective" and I certainly didn't mean any of the bad implications that can go along with the word "issues". I prefer not to do that subtle, passive aggressive type of stuff.
Usually if I need to say something bad about any particular persons views I'll manage to do it directly at least. :B)
JEFF
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