The GOT TRUTH "bumper sticker fiasco"

[dmiller]

Hello all. :)

This is for those who read my story of being in Bloomington, In. and seeing a "GOT TRUTH?" bumper sticker on a Jeep

and followed the resulting firestorm in that thread.

There were some accusations, insinuations, and speculations made about me and my intentions,

so I'll clear the air right here and now for those that care to listen.

My intentions (when I first saw the bumper sticker) were nothing more than to follow the vehicle to talk to the driver about the current state of CES.

Sorry - - I don't like the STF name, so I'm going to refer to the ORG as CES. Anyway - - - I was hardly "pursuing" the vehicle as some seem to think.

For those familiar with Bloomington, the Jeep passed me right by Cascades Park (north end of town), and went through town to the hospital,

then turned west on 2nd street heading towards the Highland Village/ Walmart end of town and pulled into a Quiznos sub shop parking lot in a VERY public area.

I had NO CLUE as to whether the driver was male or female, nor did I care. If they were advertising CES on their car's rear bumper,

I figured they might know something that I didn't, thus my interest in a bit of "first-hand-information".

Is that asking too much??

When the driver parked and got out of the car, (I'll refrain from using names here - - - Sorry about that Billy D and Paw!)

She didn't even realize I was there until I said "Hello!" :) (with a smile in my voice). She walked right toward me realizing there was NO THREAT.

As Linda Z pointed out, I'm a tall guy and EVERYONE is short to me and I like to put folks at ease when I talk with them so - - - - - - -

I did then what I always do. My left foot went out in front of me, my right knee got bent, to where I'm more on "other folks" level that way.

Plus - - - I make it a point to keep an "open" stance with hands/ body language/ etc. to put others at ease.

Maybe this is unorthodox behavior to most of you, but I've found that being 8 or so inches taller than most,

is intimidating and I like to alleviate that as much as I can when talking to others.

If i were to meet someone like Michael Jordan, the opposite would be true!

So - - - I was hardly being aggressive, nor did I know her from Adam (or Eve as the case may be), and she volunteered the info that DG was her father.

I asked a few simple questions STRICTLY about JAL and CES and his departure. Nothing more, nothing less. No animosity, merely looking for answers.

And - - - I find nothing wrong in following a car through town that has a bumper sticker on it, advertising a group I'd like to ask questions about.

Following a car advertising a group/ ministry/ whatever/ hardly constitutes "malicious intent", eh? Unless it's by an ex-CES guy following a CES sticker.

This next here is for Billy D:

I had no knowledge of her history. She offered (immediately) that DG was her father, so I had no idea she had just moved back to the area.

You mentioned that I "greatly upset and scared her" by the encounter there in a public mall parking lot. Did she tell you that??

We were both laughing and smiling at the time, and she offered her hand first to shake mine when we went our separate ways.

I had NO intentions of "grilling" whomever the driver was about CES. The only question on my mind was about JAL, and that's ALL I asked about.

I neither "peppered" her with questions, nor was I "aggressive with animosity". I figured that if DG was her Dad, she must be in the know.

I see now that was an egregious assumption on my part, and for that I apologize. My "chip on the shoulder" (as you call it) is for CES,

and it grows smaller daily since I figure they are going to do whatever they want to do, and keep their "faithful" in the dark

I have not yet (nor do I ever intend to) take it out on individual members. That would be uncool.

I hope this explanation of that day in Bloomington satisfies your (and all others here's) questions/ accusations/ etc. I meant no harm.

Yes - - - I am proud of myself for being able to follow her all the way to her destination.

Traffic in Bloomington is horrendous, and I almost lost her several times!

So - - - now that I've (hopefully) explained this a bit better, I hope you understand. My original post was in answer to a question about the BOD of CES.

Had I known that my post would cause all-sorts-of-fire-and-brimstone-responses, I might have thought twice about posting what I did.

But - - - this site never changes. Even the best of intentions/ posts will always get called into question.

Have yourself a great day, eh?

David

P.S. - - - - The last CES function I was at was the first "Fall Festival" (or something like that) several years ago.

There was a guy on stage who did a song about peanut butter to wild cheering from the audience.

Was that you Billy?? Or was it someone else?

[godmadegirl1983]

Dear dmiller,

Thank you for further explaining the incidence where you followed the young woman last week. Your previous post did sound very harsh, and as a woman of God I myself would have been terrified to be in such a situation. That's why I sent you the personal message requesting that you never do such a thing again.

To clarify, since I'm directly involved with this ministry: This young woman WAS very terrified (she has been through some rough things in the past that triggered her fear of your approaching her), and she told her father so immediately after you left. Further, the jeep wasn't even her jeep, it was her father's. Hence the bumper sticker wasn't hers either, it was on her father's vehicle. Further, the bumper sticker advertises a website, and is supposed to direct interest to that and not in following the vehicle! That bumper sticker is meant to be a website advertisement only. As billyd mentioned, she is new to this area and doesn't have her own vehicle, so that's why she was driving her father's. She is not involved with this ministry at all, and the only link she has to it is that her father is who he is. She is just a young woman who got caught in the middle of a situation she didn't expect to be caught up in.

I am very appalled that p*w tuck*t deleted billyd's post regarding this subject. He was NOT attacking you, but merely bringing up a concern about the post, which I believe was very valid. I think it's funny that PT had no problem leaving the name of this young woman in the post, but when his own name was posted he got angry! How ironic!

Again, dmiller, thank you for further explaining your stance in this matter. I can definitely see that better that you meant no harm, no matter how this was taken by others, myself included. I must admit that I myself was quite taken aback at your first post. I do still think that what you did was wrong, and the way you handled it was wrong. If you want your questions answered, go directly to the source. I happen to know that both Jo*n Sch****eit and DG are taking phone calls directly at the ministry office where they work, and would be happy to answer any questions you have. Perhaps you weren't afforded this in the past, as you mentioned when the split was going on with MG, however back then there were lawsuits and they were not allowed to talk without being further threatened. In this situation, there are no lawsuits involved and JWS and DG can talk to you freely and answer any questions you have.

God bless,

GodMadeGirl

"Be strong in the Lord and never give up hope; you're gonna do great things, I already know; God's got his hand on you so, don't live life in fear; forgive and forget, but don't forget why you're here; take your time and pray; thank God for each day; your love with light the way; these are the words I would say." Sidewalk Prophets

[dmiller]

godmadegirl1983 - - - thanks for the come back there with your opinions on the topic. I'll have to disagree with you on several points.

Number one: I don't see ANYTHING I did as wrong. Question for you here (if I may?) :)

Let's say you're interested in learning more about (for arguments sake) a view held by a political party and you see a bumper sticker on a car in front of you in traffic, espousing the "merits" of that party. Suddenly you have a supporter of said party handy for you to ask questions of, and get some first hand knowledge, rather than rhetoric spewed from other sources. Wouldn't you (as an interested person in what the bumper sticker promoted) follow that car (if you could and had the time to do so) to ask questions of the person driving??

That's what I did, and that's what I think anyone who is interested in any "cause" promoted by a bumper sticker might do in my stead.

Now - - - I figured that wasn't her Jeep. AND - - - i never knew she was "terrified" as you claim. She was smiling when she and I were talking,

and (as previously mentioned), she offered her hand to me first in parting. If she has personal problems, don't lay that on MY doorstep, eh?

You (and others) are judging my actions from the CES/STF viewpoint of me being "an ex-member stalker". Excuse me if I have this wrong, but this is the perspective that I'm reading given the comments received so far. Nothing could be further from the truth (GOT TRUTH?). I find it amazing, that folks who weren't anywhere near the area, NOR were there when she and I talked able to offer such competent/ succinct/ and glib replies as to what actually happened.

Ya know - - - I'm surprised (really - - I am) to hear that she was so "terrified" of both myself and the situation. She sure as heck didn't show it when I was talking to her. She was both an amiable and friendly person to talk to (although clueless about JAL and CES), and if she was "terrified" (as has been said a couple of times now), she sure-as-hell-hid-it-well and though I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, I would have known if I was causing discomfort.

I'm tired of explaining my actions to those who don't have a clue, but love to speculate about others.

What I did was strictly for my own info, and for my info only. She looked comfortable there while we were talking,

so DON'T tell me I'm a predatory monster of some sort for being curious about a "ministry" I used to support monthly.

Oh - - - I have one more thing to add that you (godmadegirl) probably don't know about me. I've been a partner for CES for many, many years, even though I no longer choose to support them. Do you need a back tape from 1990 to 2007?? Perhaps you need a copy of one of the many seminars they've offered? I've got them all, AND - - - I specifically made sure my "partnership" for CES went directly to the Biblical Unitarian site, and also the Truth or Tradition site. Given my past support of the ORG, can you blame me for wanting to know about them (these days)?

I've talked to DG/ JS/ JAL/ MG/ Jeff/ and KG when I had questions, and I got some very nice/ sincere/ heartfelt answers

that were a whole lot of smoke, with little substance to the "fire". suffice it to say - - - I've contacted the "higher ups", and had gotten nowhere fast.

You may be involved with CES (these days) and if you are, I hope you're happy with your choice. I have no use for them, given my past involvement.

And - - - if you're hearing she was "terrified" there in the parking lot, someone's blowing smoke. And it isn't me.

[Linda Z]

Speaking just for me, I never doubted your motives or your character David. I just thought that if I were in that girl's shoes, I might be a little intimidated. Perhaps I misread the amount of questioning that went on, and for that I apologize.

I think you're swell. Whether you scared the bejeebers out of that young woman, I know not. I was just throwing in a woman's 2 cents on how she might have felt. If a "firestorm" ensued, I think I missed it, but I usually breeze through here briefly these days and perhaps something got deleted before I had a chance to read it.

Looks to me like asking questions of anyone involved in CES/STFwhatever will be about as fruitful as my asking my elderly pooch why she pooped on the living room carpet. She just looks at me with a "Who me?" expression on her face, and I can't get much more out of her.

LZ

[pawtucket]

To Godmadegirl,

First of all I didn't notice a name being mentioned. I think "appalled" is a bit dramatic, don't you? When Billy PM'd me and mentioned it, I removed it immediately.

I told Billy what I did about his post and he agreed.

The way this site works is if you see something like a person's name, just click the report button. With this latest version of forum software, an alert is right at the top for all the mods to see.

DMiller,

I think you are swell too!

Edited November 3, 2009 by pawtucket

[Tzaia]

Dear dmiller,

Thank you for further explaining the incidence where you followed the young woman last week. Your previous post did sound very harsh, and as a woman of God I myself would have been terrified to be in such a situation.

Is this the same ministry that has several staffers with "No Fear" windshield appliqués?

"Be strong in the Lord and never give up hope; you're gonna do great things, I already know; God's got his hand on you so, don't live life in fear; forgive and forget, but don't forget why you're here; take your time and pray; thank God for each day; your love with light the way; these are the words I would say." Sidewalk Prophets

and am I missing something here as well?

[waysider]

and am I missing something here as well?

Those are the lyrics to THIS.

Edited November 3, 2009 by waysider

[mstar1]

I was thinking the exact same thing Tzaia-

The amount of fear (terrified????) in supposed "faith people" is beyond mindboggling, there is something very distorted, abnormal and maladjusted about it.

OMyGod someone wants to talk to them??

O No what terror!

I hate to break a big revelation to them but people talk to people that they have never met about every subject under the sun every single day in every single place. It is one of the most normal things in the entire world.

Then they have the audacity to jump on Dave for daring to ask a question ( a question??)

Who the hell are these bozo's? What planet are they from?

The only thing it illustrates is that

the cultic mindset is completely f*cked and totally scrambled.

at least thanks for giving us that.

.......

btw...I wouldnt buy any of the horse manure they are throwing at you Dave -You did absolutely nothing wrong

[Tzaia]

Those are the lyrics to THIS.

Nice song. Usually when someone quotes something there's a feeling of personal relevancy.

[Billy D]

Is this the same ministry that has several staffers with "No Fear" windshield appliqués?

C'mon Tzaia...you know quite well that there are plenty of people in that office (and others who attend events, fellowships, etc) that don't believe that it is ungodly or sinful to fear. She's just being honest, and I wouldn't blame her for being terrified, "woman of God" or no. Just check the nightly news and you see the kind of crazy crap that goes on in every big and small town.

and am I missing something here as well?

I confess things publicly and privately...freedom from fear, the righteousness that I have in Christ, etc, etc...and still fall short of the mark. Often. Thankfully, Christ died so that I don't have to be perfect and always hit the mark. I'm sure the Lord understands godmadegirl's desire to live without fear and would forgive her for being terrified if she were in the situation described above.

[Tzaia]

C'mon Tzaia...you know quite well that there are plenty of people in that office (and others who attend events, fellowships, etc) that don't believe that it is ungodly or sinful to fear. She's just being honest, and I wouldn't blame her for being terrified, "woman of God" or no. Just check the nightly news and you see the kind of crazy crap that goes on in every big and small town.

I confess things publicly and privately...freedom from fear, the righteousness that I have in Christ, etc, etc...and still fall short of the mark. Often. Thankfully, Christ died so that I don't have to be perfect and always hit the mark. I'm sure the Lord understands godmadegirl's desire to live without fear and would forgive her for being terrified if she were in the situation described above.

Billy - I just sense a heightened sense of drama that I think we can all do without.

Maybe things will settle down now that JAL's gone - well he's not one to go quietly. Then there's JWS's quirkiness, which will undoubtedly become problematic. Do Dan and Jeff really think they're going to be able to pull this off?

[dmiller]

Hey there Billy - - - not sure if I should fall asleep here or make some popcorn while waiting for you to address me and my questions about your insinuations you directed to me. Are you REALLY sure you aren't a part of CES?? Your lack of response to direct questions suggests otherwise. :)

My take (these days) is that CES is TWI with a new set of initials. Oh sure - - - they started out with the "best" of intentions, but before too long they (CES) "morphed" into the very ORG they thought they had escaped. SSDD (I think that can be understood by anyone with a half a brain tied behind their back). And as far as pertains the "meet-up" I had with the young lady in question, you weren't there and I was.

So - - - will you answer any of the questions I asked of you?? Or, do you care to answer any of my comments about what happened when it happened??

I'll wait on your response, but neither anxiously nor with baited breath. I have the feeling that I'll get the "party line" should you choose to respond.

Edited November 4, 2009 by dmiller

[DontWorryBeHappy]

just my 2 cents........dmiller did nothing abnormal, rude, frightening, or spiteful..........you cultists are so entangled in your own detached worlds that normalcy escapes you.........much ado about nothing imho, dmiller!............peace.

[Linda Z]

DWBH, because I think it might be intimidating for a woman to be followed and then questioned by a way-over-6-ft. stranger, that makes me a cultist?

Well, excuuuuuuse me, but I think that's a reasonable, objective view.

[Rejoice]

As I read dmiller's post, the statement was:

She didn't even realize I was there until I said "Hello!" (with a smile in my voice).

I don't think the idea of being followed even crossed her mind. She just seemed oblivious in general until he asked about JAL.

[Linda Z]

That's probably correct, Rejoice. In DM's original post he made a point of following her for 5 miles, so in my initial post that was in my mind.

[DontWorryBeHappy]

dearest linda z:

'skuse me, but i was not, in my mind, referring to you as a cultist.......but rather to the stiffies who drive around with bumperstickers advertising their cult and then being surprised or somehow "terrified" at being drawn attention to by harmless, (though perhaps, tall) people who have questions generated by the bumperstickers they knowingly or unwittingly display to garner attention!

i know i used twi bumperstickers to garner just such attention by anyone, and uncle harry had his "troops" bumpersticker every vehicle that parked anywhere on twi grounds! it was considered a form of "witnessing" would'nt you agree??

regardless, i stand by my post regarding dmiller's lack of genuinely offensive behavior, considering all the unique specifics in this situation.......but, i also understand and respect your feelings of trepidation had this happened in a completely "generic" situation in these days when threats against our human brethren can come from a wide range of unexpected and unsuspecting sources! all one needs to do to confirm the latter is watch any evening news program!.........peace.