about the way indeed

[Ham]

Did you get to play any Grateful Dead?

[waysider]

Did you get to play any Grateful Dead?

Nah. We were spectators. It was an outdoor blues festival. The headliner was

.

[excathedra]

i didn't have a rough day when i started this thread -- someone else did

was i ranting ?

[Tzaia]

i didn't have a rough day when i started this thread -- someone else did

was i ranting ?

It sounded like a rant. Might I make a suggestion? Let people speak for themselves. If they don't want to, then don't presume that it's your job to do it for them. They can continue to try and try to find their voice and perhaps you will understand that you aren't going to make that happen by insisting that it's our fault that whoever it is hasn't found their voice.

[excathedra]

ok

[Combination]

There was a site called JWO, which, back in 2004 or 5 a large number of GSC posters joined. I was not admin of that board, merely a poster there.

Considerable attacks upon the admin here were launched at that site by numerous GSC posters.

MoChat is a completely different board, of which I am admin.

A number of GSC posters are registered there but only a handfull post regularly.

During the 3 year existance of MoChat there have been 2 or 3 flurries of registration by GSCers, mainly to argue over certain issues.

There was a lengthy arguement over some private ladies only room, with a couple of new registrees stoking a bitter arguement on that subject.

More recently some chap who left here, Satori 1 I think, joined and prompted a period of discussion on GSC matters again.

My board seems to periodically attract GSCers who wish to dissent on matters of admin over here at GSC.

Well, they are free to discuss those matters if they wish. I dont direct what posters can discuss/ not discuss.

Exy, DMiller, Carol Welch are all people I personally love, and who I met her at GSC in 2004/5.

Im very happy they post at my little board. Ive never seen the admin over here mentioned by name, that I can recall.

Most GSC registrees signed up there are now deactivated. Im not really interested in a bunch of lurkers coming over there for no purpose other than to read fights and join in and start fight threads.

Thanks awfully!

(Refiner)

[Combination]

Carol Welch absolutely insists that I state that I didnt meet her until she registered at MoChat in 2007.

Well, she is correct.

And a valuable person she truly is! A real ace poster.

[excathedra]

:wub: you too refiner and thank you

[dmiller]

(snipped for brevity - - -)

I've never seen the admin over here mentioned by name, that I can recall.

Most GSC registrees signed up there are now deactivated. Im not really interested in a bunch of lurkers coming over there for no purpose other than to read fights and join in and start fight threads.

Thanks awfully!

(Refiner)

Too true RF.

[leafytwiglet]

Grease spot is the truth about TWI site.. not the VP was wonderful site, and yet I have posted about my good experiences with TWI on here and never had anyone attack me... but I sure as heck have gotten healing that I was not looking for. which I remain grateful for...

For me coming here was not about finding my voice, it was about stumbling in accidentally, and then wanting to find some old friends, and then reading with amazement and horror about things I suspected, or wondered about.

It has become an adventure in understanding what happened to me .. to my spouse .. to TWI after i left.

It has been a lesson in finding out that I didn't fail God when I left but actually was doing the right thing.

IT has been ... for me the opportunity to shed the bad parts of TWI that I knew were bad or suspected were bad and some that I thought were the truth but weren't, it has been learning all the things that were horrific that I did not know about, because of where I lived, or when I left.

Sometimes when I read stuff people post I struggle with it, because I was not involved with TWI as long, but I read it anyway because I know I NEED to read the truth of it all.

When Brainfixed and Bolshie post I read it and think of the fact that my kids would be feeling like that if I had stayed in.

When some one comes in swinging and everyone jumps in the fray there are always people who are there to pick them up and dust them off....

The healing on here for me did not come from some one being kind and gentle although there were many kind people who answered my questions and shared their own life stories with me..

The healing for me came when I read the threads and when I read what the active posters were writing, and as I came to see with my own eyes in my own time what the ministry really was, what I had thrown away part of my life on... what a scum bag VP really was and that I was not alone.

And for me an important component of this site is being able to post with real live people not just read it in the threads but find people posting on here about their experiences.

Edited to add as usual I have run off at the mouth but I wanted to also add that I don't think anyone needs to change how they act on here.. it is truth and how people really are. People aren't all nice .. some people are prickly. and I have yet to go on any forum where there were not arguments and scuffles in the threads! Okay I am done I think! :)

Edited November 30, 2009 by leafytwiglet

[brainfixed]

i guess i'd better not go off on holiday again after writing something that i thought was probably going to be largely ignored or maybe pointed at as me being some troll or something, but my inbox was full and i couldn't believe it was because people zeroed in on just one statement i made out of a whole post. it is so much like how the way international "explained" why the "promises" on the green card didn't work for everybody. "well who promised you anything anyway? it's your believing doncha know? and your believing isn't up to me or johnny jump up! it's up to you to get out of this class and this ministry what you believe to get out of it! and this ministry isn't for everybody! maybe you'd be better off in a church somewhere doing charity work if you want to get the warm fuzzies. but we here at the way international have a purpose and that purpose is DOING THE WORD. so don't think you were promised a damned thing except where your own believing would take you."

well, i know many a children whose "believing" took them into state's custody after years of physical, mental and sexual abuse at the hands of twigite parents who were DOING THE WORD. yah. no promises. it's all our own fault. if people crap on us, we should have received a heavy revvy and not been around to be crapped on. heard it all before. read the results of it all here whenever i come around. don't understand why the same logic would be applied over and over again to justify the same type of belittling and condescending.

but hey now, i'm not complaining because i am here by free will and i didn't have to pay a dime to be here (and i wouldn't pay a dime to be here, or any other message board for that matter) but i am just discussing on the other side of the coin that isn't the cheerleading side, sort of a "devil's advocate" side of things. maybe trying to "find my voice" of disagreeing with everybody at one time or something. i don't really know what i'm doing besides trying to figure out my own head and if that bothers anybody well then that sort of is a "promise" around here is that i can stick around and figure things out so long as i abide by the rules, and so far i'm pretty sure i haven't broken any rules, so a big middle finger if it does bother anybody.

and no i'm not having a bad day, but in fact had a wonderful holiday week visiting with friends and companions i hadn't seen in a long time and not a one of them from the cult and not one word mentioned about the cult and how about that!

[Tzaia]

well, i know many a children whose "believing" took them into state's custody after years of physical, mental and sexual abuse at the hands of twigite parents who were DOING THE WORD. yah. no promises. it's all our own fault. if people crap on us, we should have received a heavy revvy and not been around to be crapped on. heard it all before. read the results of it all here whenever i come around. don't understand why the same logic would be applied over and over again to justify the same type of belittling and condescending.

Let's clarify a few things

1. People did those things to children either because they thought they were "doing the word" or because they were sadists. They weren't "doing the word" at least according to any commonly understood standard.
2. I think you need to ask yourself whether what happened to you was due to misdirection or because someone actually enjoyed inflicting harm on you. I do think intent counts.
3. I am unaware of anyone (here) who (openly) thinks that what happened to children was the children's fault or due to a lack of believing. If that's what's being said in private, it's because they are too cowardly to say it out loud and that should speak loudly as to the character of those people and how much weight their comments should have. Just because someone says something doesn't automatically give it credibility. If someone here thinks that what happened to the children is alright, they need to come out and enlighten all of us, because I and many others didn't think so back then, and we certainly don't think so now, but I'm willing to hear the argument before I tell them in great detail just how screwed up I think their thinking is.
4. What happened to you is in the past, which cannot be undone. Many of us have some sort of past we are trying to make sense of. I think the reason why your experience seems particularly heinous is that all of this was supposed to ease human suffering when all it did was add to it.
5. There is a certain sense of feeling cheated, but then again the reality is that life carries no guarantees despite TWI's assertions to the contrary.
6. TWI promised a lot of things it could not deliver. People did and do believe it anyway, because they want to or they think they need to.
7. All these things that happened don't have to be a roadmap to your future. I have visited many places and decided I never wanted to go there again. Other places get visited many times. I think it's possible to do the same thing with the past. Some people do that by never talking about it. Some people revisit the subject until the feelings aren't so raw. I think it depends on the subject which way you choose. Another thing I think you need to consider is whether something deserves a place as a life-defining moment.
8. I tend to see the mistakes my parents made as a lesson in what not to do.

It appears as though you've made good friends and good relationships outside of TWI, which is good. Maybe you need to focus on that right now and wait to deal with some of the stuff that comes up here when you're better equipped. It sounds like you are starting to practice mindfulness, but if you aren't, you might try it.

[brainfixed]

It appears as though you've made good friends and good relationships outside of TWI, which is good. Maybe you need to focus on that right now and wait to deal with some of the stuff that comes up here when you're better equipped. It sounds like you are starting to practice mindfulness, but if you aren't, you might try it.

i think i've been taken back to twig, mommy.

[waysider]

i think i've been taken back to twig, mommy.

At least we don't "stretch" the coffee.

[doojable]

and does anybody really truly honestly think that the it is just a simple little old side effect of telling the "truth about the way international" that some people find their voice here, and that some people find healing here, and that some people make friends here? really? and does anybody really truly honestly think that the only thing important about this place is telling the "truth about the way international"? really?

Just wondering... why do you think that some people here find healing and/or make friends?

Edited December 1, 2009 by doojable

[Tzaia]

i think i've been taken back to twig, mommy.

Not sure what that means, but I'll trade the phrase "better equipped" for the word able to make it less TWI-ish sounding.

[brainfixed]

Just wondering... why do you think that some people here find healing and some people make friends?

i started to answer this question and then i thought "wait a minute here, isn't this the same person that picked out one line of a whole post of mine and ignored the rest of it?" and then i thought "wait another minute here, isn't this the same old same old "answer a question with a question" corps tactic my brother and sister always used on me to control me and avoid controlling themselves?" well i guess that means i'd rather you consider the things i have to say before you jump to another tactic. and those are my feelings about what you've been saying and that doesn't mean i'm right or wrong but just that's the way i feel.

Not sure what that means, but I'll trade the phrase "better equipped" for the word able to make it less TWI-ish sounding.

it isn't the phrasing, it's the mentality.

[leafytwiglet]

Hey Brainy please continue writing and coming here.. and hashing out your feelings, because it helps not just you but everyone here and that is important.

i grew up in an abusive home that had nothing to do with TWI it is what it was.. IT has taken me years to work through it. And it was not wrapped up in the bible to prove to me it was okay to treat me that way, or practiced by most of the adults in my life.

I go through cycles of it bothering me or not bothering me.. for me I had to accept that it was what it was and it was part of who I am today .. I also spent a lot of time thinking about it... mulling things over in my mind... and determining what parts of who I was today because of it, that I needed to change and figuring out strategies to change them.

I think the thing about TWI that ....ed me off from the minute I heard it in the PFAL class .. was that thought process and the socially accepted practice of blaming the victim for what happened to them... I sat stunned in PFAL listening to VP say that every victim shared responsibility in their abuse... I tried to wrap my head around that thought and it just absolute ripped my heart to the last raw nerve.

I had not had any counseling then and perhaps if I had been older or of a different generation it would have been enough to turn me away

but it fit with my own belief that somehow the abuse was my fault..

WELL guess what None of it was my fault..just as none of the abuse you suffered was your fault. I was there and an adult chose me... VP was an foot and we just followed down that trail all together.. rats to his pied piper.

It took having my own children and seeing how little they were and how they were completely at my mercy to really understand that it was not my fault.

Anyway

just remember this... as an adult you have the power to stay or go and to dictate your own life.. I am sure you held onto that hope as you were growing up just like I did... I just reminded myself every day that I would be free once i got done with school... I could escape then... And I physically escaped the abuse but it is 30+ years later and I am still escaping the abuse that lingers in my head and some of my reactions to things... I think that holds true for any person in an abusive situation

Will I ever be free of them??? maybe when I die but for the most part I made peace with myself. and I still struggle with the rest of it...

as to this place and what makes it work for some people and not for others

I suspect it has to do with who they are and why they come here and how much they were hurt by TWI or how much they have chosen to keep TWI in their lives, or mental processes.

[brainfixed]

Hey Brainy please continue writing and coming here.. and hashing out your feelings, because it helps not just you but everyone here and that is important.

i grew up in an abusive home that had nothing to do with TWI it is what it was.. IT has taken me years to work through it. And it was not wrapped up in the bible to prove to me it was okay to treat me that way, or practiced by most of the adults in my life.

I go through cycles of it bothering me or not bothering me.. for me I had to accept that it was what it was and it was part of who I am today .. I also spent a lot of time thinking about it... mulling things over in my mind... and determining what parts of who I was today because of it, that I needed to change and figuring out strategies to change them.

I think the thing about TWI that ....ed me off from the minute I heard it in the PFAL class .. was that thought process and the socially accepted practice of blaming the victim for what happened to them... I sat stunned in PFAL listening to VP say that every victim shared responsibility in their abuse... I tried to wrap my head around that thought and it just absolute ripped my heart to the last raw nerve.

I had not had any counseling then and perhaps if I had been older or of a different generation it would have been enough to turn me away

but it fit with my own belief that somehow the abuse was my fault..

WELL guess what None of it was my fault..just as none of the abuse you suffered was your fault. I was there and an adult chose me... VP was an foot and we just followed down that trail all together.. rats to his pied piper.

It took having my own children and seeing how little they were and how they were completely at my mercy to really understand that it was not my fault.

Anyway

just remember this... as an adult you have the power to stay or go and to dictate your own life.. I am sure you held onto that hope as you were growing up just like I did... I just reminded myself every day that I would be free once i got done with school... I could escape then... And I physically escaped the abuse but it is 30+ years later and I am still escaping the abuse that lingers in my head and some of my reactions to things... I think that holds true for any person in an abusive situation

Will I ever be free of them??? maybe when I die but for the most part I made peace with myself. and I still struggle with the rest of it...

as to this place and what makes it work for some people and not for others

I suspect it has to do with who they are and why they come here and how much they were hurt by TWI or how much they have chosen to keep TWI in their lives, or mental processes.

yah. i think what you're saying here probably came out better than how i would have said it. and your cslewis quote is one of his best i think, too.

[Tzaia]

it isn't the phrasing, it's the mentality.

I'm inclined to think that you have a lot more of the mentality than I - mainly because your assumptions about others.

[doojable]

Okay... I'll talk address the points of this post.

does anybody really truly honestly think that the the things put forth that started this discussion were about the "truth about the way international" and all that? really?

I can't speak for others - but I don't. The first post says why the thread was started and the discussion ensued. I think (but I'm not sure) that the main point that is being debated is whether or not the GSC community is responsible for some people not being able to "find their voice."

I would like to put forth that GSC is the result of many people finding their voices - collectively. I think of joining a forum the same way I think about entering traffic on a freeway - you have to get up to speed up and get in there and drive (or speak.)

The starting point may be "the truth about TWI" -( really it's "telling the other side of the story..." )but the end result is that once you learn to speak your mind and open up and get stuff off your chest that you've been holding inside - whether it's questions or situations - is that you find your voice. While anyone finding their own voice is good for them - it's a sure thing that NOT everyone will be happy with everyone else's voice being heard or spoken. There will be conflicts.

I haven't said anything earth shattering...

and does anybody really truly honestly think that the only thing that gets discussed or goes on around here is always just about the "truth about the way international" and all that? really?

I can't speak for others - but I don't.

There are games, recipes, jokes, general weirdness and the stuff that goes with being human. Then again, I don't recall a claim being made that the only thing discussed is "the truth about the way international."

Again - nothing earth shattering...

and does anybody really truly honestly think that the it is just a simple little old side effect of telling the "truth about the way international" that some people find their voice here, and that some people find healing here, and that some people make friends here? really?

Yes and no. A lot of folks joined GSC not because they wanted to "tell the other side of the story" or even hear it. A lot of folks (me included) joined for the sole purpose of finding some old friends. I did end up finding old friends and making new friends with the bonus that I found my voice - but that came from jumping in the discussions and taking a few knocks on the chin from doing so. Yes that is "healing" if you want to call it that. Now - did I get healed of some disease because of GSC? No. I did find that I had some things to change. That came from interacting with other folks who had been there and done that.

Yet again - nothing earth shattering...

and does anybody really truly honestly think that the only thing important about this place is telling the "truth about the way international"? really?

I can't speak for others - but I don't.

because if that be the case then this place has long outlived its reason for anything but archival existence and everybody participating in all these discussions on a daily basis are taking up a lot of time and money and work for no particular reason at all except to keep this place on top of the search engines.

I don't agree with your statement. But that's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

and that may be the point of the circular arguments around here.

I don't agree.

Nothing earth shattering here either folks, move along...

boy do i feel duped all over again.

I don't understand what this statement refers to. Feeling "duped" usually follows being tricked into something.

Initially, I didn't comment on the rest of the post because I felt that all the previous points were for other folks to answer for themselves - internally. The questions read like rhetorical questions meant to make folks think. My thoughts weren't really necessary. I only posted them here because you seemed to think I had some ulterior motive or need to control or trick...

I don't.

I don't know you and you don't know me. I ask questions because I want to understand where a person is coming from rather than make broad generalized statements. TWI was famous for making such statements.

So when I read:

i started to answer this question and then i thought "wait a minute here, isn't this the same person that picked out one line of a whole post of mine and ignored the rest of it?" and then i thought "wait another minute here, isn't this the same old same old "answer a question with a question" corps tactic my brother and sister always used on me to control me and avoid controlling themselves?" well i guess that means i'd rather you consider the things i have to say before you jump to another tactic. and those are my feelings about what you've been saying and that doesn't mean i'm right or wrong but just that's the way i feel.

The one line I picked out was the only question I had. I didn't ignore any of the rest of your post - I simply didn't feel that I had anything to add or say about the rest of the post. I really wish you would ask me something rather than make a statement that is also an insult.

The way you feel is the way you feel. Period. That makes it important to you. The fact that you say how you feel here on this forum means that you either have found your voice or are in the process of doing so. I happen to agree with you on some matters and disagree with you on others. C'est la vie.

I was in TWI as a young adult through my thirties. I had a much different time in than you did. When I was in - the way to control someone was to assume you knew something because you had revelation. Lots of bad assumptions became bad rumors and ruined lives because no one bothered to simply ask and listen. Now in my book, that's controlling someone. I won't do it. If that means you want to assign some bad motive to my asking a question - so be it - but I would rather tick you off because I don't want to assume I know something than make an accusation that ends up becoming a rumor.

Now, I think I've gone full circle as to the point of this thread...

*EDITED TO ADD* I think I've fully (and publicly) considered your post and your feelings. I'll keep considering your feelings Please return the favor.

Edited December 2, 2009 by doojable

[brainfixed]

ok! thank you for doing that line by line thing and considering what i said. i'd do it but the only time i can get that to work is when it happens accidentally and i think i'm doing two posts but then it ends up as one post with two quotes from two different people and it looks like i know what i'm doing but i don't. :) the things i talked about were not rhetorical but were asked for discussion purposes because it was being said nobody promised friendship or healing or anything from this place except the stated purpose of this place (and i stand corrected here) "the other side" of the way international story (and if i got that wrong again please correct me again), so why was anybody complaining if they didn't find anything but "the other side" of the way international story?

my point was yah maybe nobody was "promised" anything here but from the thousands of posts here that "allude" to the "possibility" of finding friendships, finding compassion, finding your voice, finding healing, well damn what else could somebody conclude if they maybe one day get tired of the isolation of the cult, get tired of the "silence of the lambs" (that might be copyrighted somewhere so i'm sorry but it so fits to describe what happens at the way international), get so tired of having only "approved" discussions that after "lurking" and maybe getting some "warm fuzzies" from some of the camaraderie around here in some of the more "tame" areas maybe they jumped in and said the only thing they knew and that was cult-speak and whammo blammo that's the last of their "little girl panties" and their butt and their pubic hairs and their willingness to chance things outside of the "hedge of protection" for a little while at least.

and wait a minute here, didn't you just say that you came here to find some old friends and made some new ones and even found your voice here? how you did that shouldn't be a cookie cutter recipe for how others do it, should it? i dunno, but if it should be, how does that make this place any different from the way international in the end because at first the way international wasn't malignant from what i understand? and really these pages are full of people finding friendships here, finding their voice here, finding healing here, finding a new thought process here, so why shouldn't people actually expect these things for themselves from coming here and participating without having to go through some sort of "hell week" (or maybe i should say "l.e.a.d. week" or "corps week") first?

and that's what i think was the point of the beginning of this discussion.

and i'm editing this to add that this discussion has made me realize that i've participated in that whammo blammo stuff and i'm sorry i've done that.

and i'm editing again to say that this working things out in my head is working because look at how i'm beginning to see that big chip on my shoulder even now because after re-reading this last post of mine i'm beginning to see i can be just as way international harsh as the next person.

Edited December 2, 2009 by brainfixed

[doojable]

ok! thank you for doing that line by line thing and considering what i said. i'd do it but the only time i can get that to work is when it happens accidentally and i think i'm doing two posts but then it ends up as one post with two quotes from two different people and it looks like i know what i'm doing but i don't. :) the things i talked about were not rhetorical but were asked for discussion purposes because it was being said nobody promised friendship or healing or anything from this place except the stated purpose of this place (and i stand corrected here) "the other side" of the way international story (and if i got that wrong again please correct me again), so why was anybody complaining if they didn't find anything but "the other side" of the way international story?

my point was yah maybe nobody was "promised" anything here but from the thousands of posts here that "allude" to the "possibility" of finding friendships, finding compassion, finding your voice, finding healing, well damn what else could somebody conclude if they maybe one day get tired of the isolation of the cult, get tired of the "silence of the lambs" (that might be copyrighted somewhere so i'm sorry but it so fits to describe what happens at the way international), get so tired of having only "approved" discussions that after "lurking" and maybe getting some "warm fuzzies" from some of the camaraderie around here in some of the more "tame" areas maybe they jumped in and said the only thing they knew and that was cult-speak and whammo blammo that's the last of their "little girl panties" and their butt and their pubic hairs and their willingness to chance things outside of the "hedge of protection" for a little while at least.

and wait a minute here, didn't you just say that you came here to find some old friends and made some new ones and even found your voice here? how you did that shouldn't be a cookie cutter recipe for how others do it, should it? i dunno, but if it should be, how does that make this place any different from the way international in the end because at first the way international wasn't malignant from what i understand? and really these pages are full of people finding friendships here, finding their voice here, finding healing here, finding a new thought process here, so why shouldn't people actually expect these things for themselves from coming here and participating without having to go through some sort of "hell week" (or maybe i should say "l.e.a.d. week" or "corps week") first?

and that's what i think was the point of the beginning of this discussion.

and i'm editing this to add that this discussion has made me realize that i've participated in that whammo blammo stuff and i'm sorry i've done that.

I came here originally because of the "Friends" forum.

I don't think that there are any cookie cutter answers out there. Some folks came here for the express purpose of exposing twi and all it's nastiness.

I think that cults/religion bring out the best and worst in people. The best because for the most part religion offers some sense of right and wrong and compassion. The worst because all people have a nasty side that just seems to get cultivated to extreme when you attach some sense of righteous indignation to it.

I don't think twi was ever good - just that we (individually) thought it was good when we signed the green card.

There are a lot of concepts that are pretty sound that got twisted and perverted under the cult mentality. The idea that you have to make the most of any given situation got twisted to "where's your believing?" I've had to work at not having a knee-jerk reaction just because a phrase or feeling makes the hairs on the back of my arms stand at attention.

Gotta run... have a good day.

[excathedra]

ohmygod listening to some of you is like taking pfal

[waysider]

Can I do the flip charts?

Please, please?