Looked at the PDF's James, and I agree that you really needed to do this, They answer a lot of the questions brought up here at GS earlier - and if I may say so without malice, those questions arose mostly be cause of unanswered derogatory remarks about you on the web, which were easy enough to find.
Congrats on the way the suit resloved itself
"...and so we have no problem giving them due credit. In fact we will be crediting several other works that were referenced as well."
Probably a wise idea, next time, do that initially and you may save yourself a lot of heartache.
Glad the suit is over. You mean to tell me it took a court case to "resolve" things to their satisfaction? Couldn't they have just worked this out of court? James, I am assuming you would have been amenable to this...no?
Glad the suit is over. You mean to tell me it took a court case to "resolve" things to their satisfaction? Couldn't they have just worked this out of court? James, I am assuming you would have been amenable to this...no?
They have to spend some of the abundant sharing somewhere.
James, this is good news. I agree about giving credit where credit is due but I'd think translation comparison is standard practice so I don't understand twi's beef, especially given that vpw wholesale plagiarized the work of others and gave no credit... in fact he loved to tell how god himself told him what he couldn't tell anyone in almost 2000 years.
oh wait, I just remembered what it was like in twi and I completely understand why they had a beef. no one else is supposed to be able to suss out the "truth of god's word" like the holy and committed of twi.
barf.
anyway, I get tired of reading about twi stomping other organizations over using the word "way" in their name so reading that there's finally an area where christians can work without fear of some frivolous lawsuit from that whited sepulchre makes me feel happy.
For those following this thread, I thought you might want to read this post from another site, from someone (one of our detractors) who had consulted with TWI against us on this case:
Shalom Chaverim,
Well, let it now and forever be said that I TRIED, as did Kathyern Kern, and
Vickie Dillen, to bring the criminal, and wanna be Jew, James Scott Trimm, to
JUSTICE.
I sold my copy of the HRV New Testament to The Way International, gave them a
guided tour of all of the internet websites about Trimm's plagiarism.
And I spent a very long time with them on the telephone as well.
Now, I'll tell you what they (The Way) told me over the telephone:
They and their attorney traveled to Hurst, Texas (a surburb of the
Dallas/Ft.Worth metroplex) two times to visit Trimm at his home.
They offered him "a deal", where he COULD KEEP PUBLISHING HIS HRV "BIBLE", if he
would only acknowledge (ADMIT) that he had plagiarized their 3 volume
Aramaic-English Interlinear New Testament.
The Way International seems to have settled this lawsuit without winning one
thin dime!
If you read his propaganda piece below, you'll see that The Way seems to have
settled for nothing outside an admittance on newly printed copies of the HRV
"Bible" that some of the material came from their Aramaic-English Interlinear
New Testament.
Trimm is back to saying that NO ONE was EVER ripped off by him or his Nazarene
Society for the Advancement of Judaism.
Trimm NEVER admits that he actually MET Paul Younan in person and could not
speak even two minutes of Syriac in a conversation with Younan.
If you CAN'T SPEAK IT, HOW can you TRANSLATE IT??
It seems that he (Trimm) has also gotten an apology out of Andrew Gabriel Roth,
another Nazarene plagiarist, proving once for all time, that birds of a feather,
really DO stick together.
The Way flat out told me that Trimm translated not only their successes from
their Aramaic English New Testament, but ALSO THAT HE TRANSLATED THEIR MISTAKES,
and by Trimm doing that alone, THIS ABSOLUTELY PROVED BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT
that he had PLAGIARIZED their (The Way) New Testament.
Well, I TRIED.
I honestly believe that this is one more thing that seems to say that we are
literally in The End of Days.
Plainly, evil triumphed here over righteousness and good.
I'm 58 years old now, and as God is my Witness, I will NEVER have anything to do
with the so-called Nazarene Movement again for the rest of my life.
With people at the helm like James Trimm and Andrew Gabriel Roth, the Nazarene
Movement is shipwrecked, and will forever continue to be so.
TRUTH against the world, Albion Guppy
From the criminal James Trimm:
Shalom Friends,
I have a very important announcement.
As many of you know The Way International had filed a lawsuit against myself and
the WNAE (under our old name of SANJ) this last summer, alleging that portions
of the HRV Scriptures infringed on the copyright of a translation they once
published about twenty years ago.
We responded by arguing that the lawsuit itself was unconstitutional on the
basis that Bible translation is Scripture interpretation and Scripture
interpretation is doctrine. (The US Supreme court has ruled that the
Establishment Clause of the Bill of Rights forbids the court from adjudicating
property disputes between religious groups where hearing the case would require
the court to consider, weigh or interpret doctrine, or resolve doctrinal
issues.) In this case hearing such a case would put the government in the
position of regulating Scripture interpretation, and that we as an Establishment
of Religion may interpret the Scriptures as we see fit.
We also responded by stating that the HRV is an original translation made
directly from Hebrew and Aramaic sources and that close agreement with the AEINT
is to be expected since both are (at places) literal translations of the
Pedangta, and that such similarities fall within the legal doctrine of merger.
Furthermore we argued that any use the AEINT made of the HRV was within the four
criteria of the fair use law and was also permitted by an implied license, and
thus did not constitute copyright infringement.
I am pleased to announce that after a process of discovery and taking of
depositions, The Way International has chosen to settle their lawsuit rather
than take it to trial. As part of the settlement they have issued us a permanent
license with no monetary consideration. Also as part of the settlement we have
maintained that there was no copyright infringement on our part, however we have
also agreed as part of this license agreement, to henceforth give credit in
editions of the HRV to the TWI version. (Thus allegations of copyright
infringement are forever ended.).
We have always maintained that a final stage in the translation of the HRV
involved comparing with previous translations of the Aramaic so as to insure
that the HRV presented the best possible translation of each and every word and
phrase, and so we have no problem giving them due credit. In fact we will be
crediting several other works that were referenced as well.
We maintain our use of the TWI edition was legal fair use and was also permitted
under an implied license, but for the record there is now a formal license as
well. Where there is a formal license in place there can be no question of
either copyright infringement or plagiarism.
With this suit behind us, we can now freely answer our critics who have accused
us of plagiarism and copyright infringement. We have compiled a document from
the evidence we had originally planned to present in court which demonstrates
that the Hebraic Roots Version is an original and independent translation made
directly from Hebrew and Aramaic sources, not infringing on anyone's copyright.
This PDF document (about 50 pages) settles this issues once and for all and can
I am a paralegal student. Two thirds of the classes are also required in law school. Last year I took a tort law class. That covers civil wrongs. A few relevant examples:
False imprisonment: based on the right to live w/o being under the physical control of another. Can be psychological. Does you will die/get possessed if you leave ring any bells?
Libel: published slander. Published can be an email or internet forum. Or SNS tape.
Slander: verbal slander, but published in the sense it is said to another. These two are based on the right to live w/o having ones reputation ruined by another. Speaking of which, negative things said on this forum that can’t be proven to be true could leave a person subject to a losing lawsuit by TWI. For that to happen, TWI would first have to find the person, serve him or her, and have damages exceeding $75,000 (if the person lives in a different state than Ohio).
A lot of us could win a civil suit against TWI quite easily if the statute of limitations were not long ago past (one year in most cases). Ironic TWI continues to be so vigilant about its rights while it has a long history of ignoring basic human rights of followers. Civil wrongs are based on the right to privacy. Nonexistent in TWI.
But back to the subject at hand. The settlement tells me some things. Their attorney knew TWI had no case to start with or figured it out during discovery. You never settle unless you are sure you will lose, or in the game of chicken the other side is willing to compromise. If client settles for no money at all: both client and attorney know there is no case or hope of winning if it goes to trial.
The final irony: courts provide more justice than TWI ever thought of.
Slander: verbal slander, but published in the sense it is said to another. These two are based on the right to live w/o having ones reputation ruined by another. Speaking of which, negative things said on this forum that canÂ’t be proven to be true could leave a person subject to a losing lawsuit by TWI. For that to happen, TWI would first have to find the person, serve him or her, and have damages exceeding $75,000 (if the person lives in a different state than Ohio).
There are a number of other elements here. One problematic area concerning things on the Internet is jurisdiction. Where do you file a case like this? Did the offense happen in a certain state under which state civil law applies? Venue can be argued. The other problem is that people who are in positions like public figures have no expectation of privacy like a normal citizen does. And filing and winning a lawsuit are 2 different things. Truth as a defense is always powerful. You don't have to have a statement "proven to be true" you just have to have a statement with enough facts behind it that the average person would reasonably believe it to be true. To actually win a case of this nature, there is a discovery process just like all the lawsuits TWI went through. In that discovery process, people involved are asked whatever questions an opposing attorney wants to ask. If someone lies, they are subject to perjury charges. That due process of law is what flushed out all of the Forehead's antics - he was afraid to perjure himself and expose himself to jail time. Those TWI leaders don't want to have people digging into their lives, especially their past, and getting depositions on record where they could be later proven to contain lies. I mean the PR damage that could happen there. The Forehead from what it was rumored internally was a serial adulterer - meaning many, many partners. They had to make a "list" of people whose names came up and sit with them and counsel them. Oh, and what they counseled them was that it was partially their fault too, because to do it they must have had some inappropriate lust for gain out of it. Another coverup scheme to get all of the victims not to sue. Yes, TWI's BOD is very aware of the 1 year statute of limitations on slander and libel suits and certainly works with that in mind. If they can just bully someone or push someone or trick someone into not taking action for a year they are in the clear.
Just to clear up some minor points, at no point did anyone from the way come to my home in Hurst Texas.
We did have two court ordered Settlement meetings several months ago. One was at an Law Office in Fort Worth that was working with their Ohio attorney. The other was held at the Judge's court Jury room in Fort Worth. In another thread someone mentioned a female they called Frau Q-Tip or something... as having flown to DFW for these meetings. Actually the TWI attorney flew in with a male rep from TWI. Also the Ohio attorney flew in and spent many hours (basically all day) deposing me on another occasion.
Also, obviously we did not agree to "admit" that we had "plagiarized" anything.
Anyway, just to set the story straight.
For those following this thread, I thought you might want to read this post from another site, from someone (one of our detractors) who had consulted with TWI against us on this case:
Shalom Chaverim,
Well, let it now and forever be said that I TRIED, as did Kathyern Kern, and
Vickie Dillen, to bring the criminal, and wanna be Jew, James Scott Trimm, to
JUSTICE.
I sold my copy of the HRV New Testament to The Way International, gave them a
guided tour of all of the internet websites about Trimm's plagiarism.
And I spent a very long time with them on the telephone as well.
Now, I'll tell you what they (The Way) told me over the telephone:
They and their attorney traveled to Hurst, Texas (a surburb of the
Dallas/Ft.Worth metroplex) two times to visit Trimm at his home.
They offered him "a deal", where he COULD KEEP PUBLISHING HIS HRV "BIBLE", if he
would only acknowledge (ADMIT) that he had plagiarized their 3 volume
Aramaic-English Interlinear New Testament.
The Way International seems to have settled this lawsuit without winning one
thin dime!
If you read his propaganda piece below, you'll see that The Way seems to have
settled for nothing outside an admittance on newly printed copies of the HRV
"Bible" that some of the material came from their Aramaic-English Interlinear
New Testament.
Trimm is back to saying that NO ONE was EVER ripped off by him or his Nazarene
Society for the Advancement of Judaism.
Trimm NEVER admits that he actually MET Paul Younan in person and could not
speak even two minutes of Syriac in a conversation with Younan.
If you CAN'T SPEAK IT, HOW can you TRANSLATE IT??
It seems that he (Trimm) has also gotten an apology out of Andrew Gabriel Roth,
another Nazarene plagiarist, proving once for all time, that birds of a feather,
really DO stick together.
The Way flat out told me that Trimm translated not only their successes from
their Aramaic English New Testament, but ALSO THAT HE TRANSLATED THEIR MISTAKES,
and by Trimm doing that alone, THIS ABSOLUTELY PROVED BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT
that he had PLAGIARIZED their (The Way) New Testament.
Well, I TRIED.
I honestly believe that this is one more thing that seems to say that we are
literally in The End of Days.
Plainly, evil triumphed here over righteousness and good.
I'm 58 years old now, and as God is my Witness, I will NEVER have anything to do
with the so-called Nazarene Movement again for the rest of my life.
With people at the helm like James Trimm and Andrew Gabriel Roth, the Nazarene
Movement is shipwrecked, and will forever continue to be so.
TRUTH against the world, Albion Guppy
From the criminal James Trimm:
Shalom Friends,
I have a very important announcement.
As many of you know The Way International had filed a lawsuit against myself and
the WNAE (under our old name of SANJ) this last summer, alleging that portions
of the HRV Scriptures infringed on the copyright of a translation they once
published about twenty years ago.
We responded by arguing that the lawsuit itself was unconstitutional on the
basis that Bible translation is Scripture interpretation and Scripture
interpretation is doctrine. (The US Supreme court has ruled that the
Establishment Clause of the Bill of Rights forbids the court from adjudicating
property disputes between religious groups where hearing the case would require
the court to consider, weigh or interpret doctrine, or resolve doctrinal
issues.) In this case hearing such a case would put the government in the
position of regulating Scripture interpretation, and that we as an Establishment
of Religion may interpret the Scriptures as we see fit.
We also responded by stating that the HRV is an original translation made
directly from Hebrew and Aramaic sources and that close agreement with the AEINT
is to be expected since both are (at places) literal translations of the
Pedangta, and that such similarities fall within the legal doctrine of merger.
Furthermore we argued that any use the AEINT made of the HRV was within the four
criteria of the fair use law and was also permitted by an implied license, and
thus did not constitute copyright infringement.
I am pleased to announce that after a process of discovery and taking of
depositions, The Way International has chosen to settle their lawsuit rather
than take it to trial. As part of the settlement they have issued us a permanent
license with no monetary consideration. Also as part of the settlement we have
maintained that there was no copyright infringement on our part, however we have
also agreed as part of this license agreement, to henceforth give credit in
editions of the HRV to the TWI version. (Thus allegations of copyright
infringement are forever ended.).
We have always maintained that a final stage in the translation of the HRV
involved comparing with previous translations of the Aramaic so as to insure
that the HRV presented the best possible translation of each and every word and
phrase, and so we have no problem giving them due credit. In fact we will be
crediting several other works that were referenced as well.
We maintain our use of the TWI edition was legal fair use and was also permitted
under an implied license, but for the record there is now a formal license as
well. Where there is a formal license in place there can be no question of
either copyright infringement or plagiarism.
With this suit behind us, we can now freely answer our critics who have accused
us of plagiarism and copyright infringement. We have compiled a document from
the evidence we had originally planned to present in court which demonstrates
that the Hebraic Roots Version is an original and independent translation made
directly from Hebrew and Aramaic sources, not infringing on anyone's copyright.
This PDF document (about 50 pages) settles this issues once and for all and can
In fact not only did we not admit to "plagiarizing" anything, I have a document "signed by each party" which the Court refers to as "a stipulation and agreement by the parties as to the facts recited in the document". This document states "Defendant's deny that they violated the Plaintiff's copyrights, nevertheless, the Parties have agreed to resolve this matter in accordance with a Settlement Agreement..."
In another thread someone mentioned a female they called Frau Q-Tip or something... as having flown to DFW for these meetings.
My apologies, I did mention a Frau Q-Tip (whomever she may be) but it was not in the same context as your posts. I guess you had to see it in the original....or know that much of what is referred to here is in the context of what common experiences are shared by those who left. I wish you all the best, James.
It is ironic to me...that you are here...on a forum of ex-cultists ranting about their x-cult. You, yourself, seem to be ranted about quite a bit by people who followed you....What's up with that?
My apologies, I did mention a Frau Q-Tip (whomever she may be) but it was not in the same context as your posts. I guess you had to see it in the original....or know that much of what is referred to here is in the context of what common experiences are shared by those who left. I wish you all the best, James.
It is ironic to me...that you are here...on a forum of ex-cultists ranting about their x-cult. You, yourself, seem to be ranted about quite a bit by people who followed you....What's up with that?
If anyone follows me I hope it is only as I follow Messiah. I only wish people to follow Torah and Messiah. The few who have accused me of being a "Cult leader" are rarely people who were ever associated with Nazarene Judaism. We just practice a form of Judaism that recognizes Yeshua as the Jewish Messiah of Judaism.
My apologies, I did mention a Frau Q-Tip (whomever she may be) but it was not in the same context as your posts. I guess you had to see it in the original....or know that much of what is referred to here is in the context of what common experiences are shared by those who left. I wish you all the best, James.
It is ironic to me...that you are here...on a forum of ex-cultists ranting about their x-cult. You, yourself, seem to be ranted about quite a bit by people who followed you....What's up with that?
If anyone follows me I hope it is only as I follow Messiah. I only wish people to follow Torah and Messiah. The few who have accused me of being a "Cult leader" are rarely people who were ever associated with Nazarene Judaism. We just practice a form of Judaism that recognizes Yeshua as the Jewish Messiah of Judaism.
Cool. I appreciate the clarification, and I meant no accusations...I think that was plain, but at times intent is muddied across all the wires.
Keep on keeping on. I respect your efforts and appreciate your contributions. "He that is not against us is with us!"
My apologies, I did mention a Frau Q-Tip (whomever she may be) but it was not in the same context as your posts. I guess you had to see it in the original....or know that much of what is referred to here is in the context of what common experiences are shared by those who left. I wish you all the best, James.
It is ironic to me...that you are here...on a forum of ex-cultists ranting about their x-cult. You, yourself, seem to be ranted about quite a bit by people who followed you....What's up with that?
This reminds me of a humorous moment from my deposition. The subject of Watchman Fellowship had come up. (I wrote some articles for Watchman Fellowship back in 1993 and one of their researchers had written me a letter we were discussing.
Q. What's Watchman Fellowship?
A. I'm sure The Way International is very familiar with Watchman Fellowship.
Q. Just tell me what it is please.
A. They're an anti-cult watch group.
Q. What does that mean?
A. That means that they actively seek to alert the mainline Christian community about groups that they consider para Christian cults, ranging from the Mormons to the Jehovah's Witnesses to The Way International.
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Gen-2
Looked at the PDF's James, and I agree that you really needed to do this, They answer a lot of the questions brought up here at GS earlier - and if I may say so without malice, those questions arose mostly be cause of unanswered derogatory remarks about you on the web, which were easy enough to find.
Congrats on the way the suit resloved itself
Probably a wise idea, next time, do that initially and you may save yourself a lot of heartache.
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OldSkool
Glad the suit is over. You mean to tell me it took a court case to "resolve" things to their satisfaction? Couldn't they have just worked this out of court? James, I am assuming you would have been amenable to this...no?
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pawtucket
They have to spend some of the abundant sharing somewhere.
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potato
James, this is good news. I agree about giving credit where credit is due but I'd think translation comparison is standard practice so I don't understand twi's beef, especially given that vpw wholesale plagiarized the work of others and gave no credit... in fact he loved to tell how god himself told him what he couldn't tell anyone in almost 2000 years.
oh wait, I just remembered what it was like in twi and I completely understand why they had a beef. no one else is supposed to be able to suss out the "truth of god's word" like the holy and committed of twi.
barf.
anyway, I get tired of reading about twi stomping other organizations over using the word "way" in their name so reading that there's finally an area where christians can work without fear of some frivolous lawsuit from that whited sepulchre makes me feel happy.
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Ham
hmm. Maybe they really ARE kindler and gentler..(?)..
the next thing I'm expecting to see.. a post from rico, asking me back..
I think the "legal team" perhaps had something to do with this..
I mean.. they review the possible "opportunities" of litigation..
and in this case.. they were hell bound on beating the snot out of somebody who actually *seriously* wanted to listen to what they had to say..
I don't have words to describe this. I'm working on it..
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OldSkool
Ok, sooner or later I am counting on you having a moment of clarity....standing by....
(I no longer expect TWI to make sense to anyone else except the person(s) making the decision.
)
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Ham
heh.. I'm still working on it..
but really.. of anything anyone would take them seriously on..
it has to be the work in Aramaic.
its like.. for da way to consider court action.. seems not unlike cutting ones own leg off..
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OldSkool
I know jack about Aramaic, though I do remember the claim to fame on the Aramaic - Pedangta Text. That is was unique because of George Lamsa.
I'm no legal aficionado, assuming this is quite common, but I do get a kick out of them settling their own case.
ROFL@PEDANGTA text - me thinks cuss checker is a bit sensitive!
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Ham
heh..
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Ham
Mr. Trimm. I am more than glad, that you got what you needed..
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Ham
personally.. happily.. I'd be happier consumining...
sometimes we settle for what we can get..
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James Trimm
I want to thank you all for being so hospitable and many of you for helping me through this time with prayers, information and just a place to talk.
Also many thanks in this go to my attorney Larry Meadows.
BTW if you want to donate to our legal fund, he certainly deserves more than the $700 we have raised for him, you can paypal.com donations to
nazarene-legal-fund@meadowsllp.com
Edited by James TrimmLink to comment
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James Trimm
For those following this thread, I thought you might want to read this post from another site, from someone (one of our detractors) who had consulted with TWI against us on this case:
Shalom Chaverim,
Well, let it now and forever be said that I TRIED, as did Kathyern Kern, and
Vickie Dillen, to bring the criminal, and wanna be Jew, James Scott Trimm, to
JUSTICE.
I sold my copy of the HRV New Testament to The Way International, gave them a
guided tour of all of the internet websites about Trimm's plagiarism.
And I spent a very long time with them on the telephone as well.
Now, I'll tell you what they (The Way) told me over the telephone:
They and their attorney traveled to Hurst, Texas (a surburb of the
Dallas/Ft.Worth metroplex) two times to visit Trimm at his home.
They offered him "a deal", where he COULD KEEP PUBLISHING HIS HRV "BIBLE", if he
would only acknowledge (ADMIT) that he had plagiarized their 3 volume
Aramaic-English Interlinear New Testament.
The Way International seems to have settled this lawsuit without winning one
thin dime!
If you read his propaganda piece below, you'll see that The Way seems to have
settled for nothing outside an admittance on newly printed copies of the HRV
"Bible" that some of the material came from their Aramaic-English Interlinear
New Testament.
Trimm is back to saying that NO ONE was EVER ripped off by him or his Nazarene
Society for the Advancement of Judaism.
Trimm NEVER admits that he actually MET Paul Younan in person and could not
speak even two minutes of Syriac in a conversation with Younan.
If you CAN'T SPEAK IT, HOW can you TRANSLATE IT??
It seems that he (Trimm) has also gotten an apology out of Andrew Gabriel Roth,
another Nazarene plagiarist, proving once for all time, that birds of a feather,
really DO stick together.
The Way flat out told me that Trimm translated not only their successes from
their Aramaic English New Testament, but ALSO THAT HE TRANSLATED THEIR MISTAKES,
and by Trimm doing that alone, THIS ABSOLUTELY PROVED BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT
that he had PLAGIARIZED their (The Way) New Testament.
Well, I TRIED.
I honestly believe that this is one more thing that seems to say that we are
literally in The End of Days.
Plainly, evil triumphed here over righteousness and good.
I'm 58 years old now, and as God is my Witness, I will NEVER have anything to do
with the so-called Nazarene Movement again for the rest of my life.
With people at the helm like James Trimm and Andrew Gabriel Roth, the Nazarene
Movement is shipwrecked, and will forever continue to be so.
TRUTH against the world, Albion Guppy
From the criminal James Trimm:
Shalom Friends,
I have a very important announcement.
As many of you know The Way International had filed a lawsuit against myself and
the WNAE (under our old name of SANJ) this last summer, alleging that portions
of the HRV Scriptures infringed on the copyright of a translation they once
published about twenty years ago.
We responded by arguing that the lawsuit itself was unconstitutional on the
basis that Bible translation is Scripture interpretation and Scripture
interpretation is doctrine. (The US Supreme court has ruled that the
Establishment Clause of the Bill of Rights forbids the court from adjudicating
property disputes between religious groups where hearing the case would require
the court to consider, weigh or interpret doctrine, or resolve doctrinal
issues.) In this case hearing such a case would put the government in the
position of regulating Scripture interpretation, and that we as an Establishment
of Religion may interpret the Scriptures as we see fit.
We also responded by stating that the HRV is an original translation made
directly from Hebrew and Aramaic sources and that close agreement with the AEINT
is to be expected since both are (at places) literal translations of the
Pedangta, and that such similarities fall within the legal doctrine of merger.
Furthermore we argued that any use the AEINT made of the HRV was within the four
criteria of the fair use law and was also permitted by an implied license, and
thus did not constitute copyright infringement.
I am pleased to announce that after a process of discovery and taking of
depositions, The Way International has chosen to settle their lawsuit rather
than take it to trial. As part of the settlement they have issued us a permanent
license with no monetary consideration. Also as part of the settlement we have
maintained that there was no copyright infringement on our part, however we have
also agreed as part of this license agreement, to henceforth give credit in
editions of the HRV to the TWI version. (Thus allegations of copyright
infringement are forever ended.).
We have always maintained that a final stage in the translation of the HRV
involved comparing with previous translations of the Aramaic so as to insure
that the HRV presented the best possible translation of each and every word and
phrase, and so we have no problem giving them due credit. In fact we will be
crediting several other works that were referenced as well.
We maintain our use of the TWI edition was legal fair use and was also permitted
under an implied license, but for the record there is now a formal license as
well. Where there is a formal license in place there can be no question of
either copyright infringement or plagiarism.
With this suit behind us, we can now freely answer our critics who have accused
us of plagiarism and copyright infringement. We have compiled a document from
the evidence we had originally planned to present in court which demonstrates
that the Hebraic Roots Version is an original and independent translation made
directly from Hebrew and Aramaic sources, not infringing on anyone's copyright.
This PDF document (about 50 pages) settles this issues once and for all and can
be downloaded at:
http://www.lulu.com/items/volume_68/8850000/8850159/1/print/jstrimm3.pdf
Post taken from:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/message/15006
Edited by James TrimmLink to comment
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another spot
Arggg.
The pot calling the kettle black.
I am a paralegal student. Two thirds of the classes are also required in law school. Last year I took a tort law class. That covers civil wrongs. A few relevant examples:
False imprisonment: based on the right to live w/o being under the physical control of another. Can be psychological. Does you will die/get possessed if you leave ring any bells?
Libel: published slander. Published can be an email or internet forum. Or SNS tape.
Slander: verbal slander, but published in the sense it is said to another. These two are based on the right to live w/o having ones reputation ruined by another. Speaking of which, negative things said on this forum that can’t be proven to be true could leave a person subject to a losing lawsuit by TWI. For that to happen, TWI would first have to find the person, serve him or her, and have damages exceeding $75,000 (if the person lives in a different state than Ohio).
A lot of us could win a civil suit against TWI quite easily if the statute of limitations were not long ago past (one year in most cases). Ironic TWI continues to be so vigilant about its rights while it has a long history of ignoring basic human rights of followers. Civil wrongs are based on the right to privacy. Nonexistent in TWI.
But back to the subject at hand. The settlement tells me some things. Their attorney knew TWI had no case to start with or figured it out during discovery. You never settle unless you are sure you will lose, or in the game of chicken the other side is willing to compromise. If client settles for no money at all: both client and attorney know there is no case or hope of winning if it goes to trial.
The final irony: courts provide more justice than TWI ever thought of.
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chockfull
There are a number of other elements here. One problematic area concerning things on the Internet is jurisdiction. Where do you file a case like this? Did the offense happen in a certain state under which state civil law applies? Venue can be argued. The other problem is that people who are in positions like public figures have no expectation of privacy like a normal citizen does. And filing and winning a lawsuit are 2 different things. Truth as a defense is always powerful. You don't have to have a statement "proven to be true" you just have to have a statement with enough facts behind it that the average person would reasonably believe it to be true. To actually win a case of this nature, there is a discovery process just like all the lawsuits TWI went through. In that discovery process, people involved are asked whatever questions an opposing attorney wants to ask. If someone lies, they are subject to perjury charges. That due process of law is what flushed out all of the Forehead's antics - he was afraid to perjure himself and expose himself to jail time. Those TWI leaders don't want to have people digging into their lives, especially their past, and getting depositions on record where they could be later proven to contain lies. I mean the PR damage that could happen there. The Forehead from what it was rumored internally was a serial adulterer - meaning many, many partners. They had to make a "list" of people whose names came up and sit with them and counsel them. Oh, and what they counseled them was that it was partially their fault too, because to do it they must have had some inappropriate lust for gain out of it. Another coverup scheme to get all of the victims not to sue. Yes, TWI's BOD is very aware of the 1 year statute of limitations on slander and libel suits and certainly works with that in mind. If they can just bully someone or push someone or trick someone into not taking action for a year they are in the clear.
But they won't escape God's courts.
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OldSkool
My advice to Frau Q-Tip is go ahead and sue. Some us may just have our own resources to bring a nice little counter suit.
Of course if it were a real concern, Pawtucket could always move the servers some place like:
http://www.leaseweb.com/en
Seems the Netherlands makes it tough for tort hungry people to do very much.
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James Trimm
Just to clear up some minor points, at no point did anyone from the way come to my home in Hurst Texas.
We did have two court ordered Settlement meetings several months ago. One was at an Law Office in Fort Worth that was working with their Ohio attorney. The other was held at the Judge's court Jury room in Fort Worth. In another thread someone mentioned a female they called Frau Q-Tip or something... as having flown to DFW for these meetings. Actually the TWI attorney flew in with a male rep from TWI. Also the Ohio attorney flew in and spent many hours (basically all day) deposing me on another occasion.
Also, obviously we did not agree to "admit" that we had "plagiarized" anything.
Anyway, just to set the story straight.
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James Trimm
In fact not only did we not admit to "plagiarizing" anything, I have a document "signed by each party" which the Court refers to as "a stipulation and agreement by the parties as to the facts recited in the document". This document states "Defendant's deny that they violated the Plaintiff's copyrights, nevertheless, the Parties have agreed to resolve this matter in accordance with a Settlement Agreement..."
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OldSkool
My apologies, I did mention a Frau Q-Tip (whomever she may be) but it was not in the same context as your posts. I guess you had to see it in the original....or know that much of what is referred to here is in the context of what common experiences are shared by those who left. I wish you all the best, James.
It is ironic to me...that you are here...on a forum of ex-cultists ranting about their x-cult. You, yourself, seem to be ranted about quite a bit by people who followed you....What's up with that?
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James Trimm
If anyone follows me I hope it is only as I follow Messiah. I only wish people to follow Torah and Messiah. The few who have accused me of being a "Cult leader" are rarely people who were ever associated with Nazarene Judaism. We just practice a form of Judaism that recognizes Yeshua as the Jewish Messiah of Judaism.
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James Trimm
BTW The Q-tip thread I referred to was here:
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OldSkool
Cool. I appreciate the clarification, and I meant no accusations...I think that was plain, but at times intent is muddied across all the wires.
Keep on keeping on. I respect your efforts and appreciate your contributions. "He that is not against us is with us!"
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chockfull
Fixed inaccuracies on that thread. Thx for clarification.
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James Trimm
This reminds me of a humorous moment from my deposition. The subject of Watchman Fellowship had come up. (I wrote some articles for Watchman Fellowship back in 1993 and one of their researchers had written me a letter we were discussing.
Q. What's Watchman Fellowship?
A. I'm sure The Way International is very familiar with Watchman Fellowship.
Q. Just tell me what it is please.
A. They're an anti-cult watch group.
Q. What does that mean?
A. That means that they actively seek to alert the mainline Christian community about groups that they consider para Christian cults, ranging from the Mormons to the Jehovah's Witnesses to The Way International.
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