6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; 7 but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; 9 but just as it is written,
“Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard,
And which have not entered the heart of man,
All that God has prepared for those who love Him.”
=====================================
Short explanation: What God Almighty has prepared for us in the future is mind-blowing and
don't even try to figure all of it out. It's a surprise- for us and for everyone else.
======================================
Romans 8:16-25 (NASB)
16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
===============================================
Short explanation: As a result of our identification in Christ,
just as Christ was foretold to suffer and then be glorified later,
and then suffered and was glorified later,
we suffer now and will be glorified in the future.
At the appointed time, just as Jesus was transformed and glorified,
we'll be transformed and-at long last, like the end of labor pains,
this current suffering will be over and our unveiled selves will be
revealed. That is our Hope (part of it, at least.)
That's as short and simple as I can make this concept and this passage.
WW Thank you so much for that! I'm at work now in the middle of something, and can't digest it as much as I like right now. but WOW! I didn't expect it to mean that! That means a lot to me, you just don't know. The scripture and it's meaning I mean. Wow. So I guess it will all be worth it, more than we know. Wow. Because sometimes I get so damn weary and just wonder what the whole point is, and then I feel bad because I KNOW how much Jesus did, and DOES for us every day. Okay, back to work for now....
Below is a version of the bible that will help and simplify our understanding of these verses. It is the Living Bible Version, which is legitimate and good. I have included some of the verses before and after your requested verses for the immediate context.
Romans 8:15-25
15 And so we should not be like cringing, fearful slaves, but we should behave like God's very own children, adopted into the bosom of his family, and calling to him, "Father, Father." 16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God's children. 17 And since we are his children, we will share his treasures-for all God gives to his Son Jesus is now ours too. But if we are to share his glory, we must also share his suffering.
18 Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will give us later. 19 For all creation is waiting patiently and hopefully for that future day when God will resurrect his children. 20 For on that day thorns and thistles, sin, death, and decay --the things that overcame the world against its will at God's command-will all disappear, and the world around us will share in the glorious freedom from sin which God's children enjoy.
22 For we know that even the things of nature, like animals and plants, suffer in sickness and death as they await this great event.
23 And even we Christians, although we have the Holy Spirit within us as a foretaste of future glory, also groan to be released from pain and suffering. We, too, wait anxiously for that day when God will give us our full rights as his children, including the new bodies he has promised us-bodies that will never be sick again and will never die.
24 We are saved by trusting. And trusting means looking forward to getting something we don't yet have-for a man who already has something doesn't need to hope and trust that he will get it. 25 But if we must keep trusting God for something that hasn't happened yet, it teaches us to wait patiently and confidently.
Okay, this helps a lot. First, what I'm seeing is the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;
That makes it sounds like people who would not have crucified this. The reason I'm saying this is I was led to believe this verse was talking about satan never would have crucified Jesus. Which makes no sense seeing it in the context of this verse.
Then what I'm seeing is . But if we are to share his glory, we must also share his suffering. 18 Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will give us later. Okay, I saw a preacher who taught on this. And he said no matter how awful things seem in this life, nothing the devil does can outshine what God has in store for us. I really had a hard time swallowing that at the time, but I'm seeing it MUCH clearer now.
Then: having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. NO WONDER PEOPLE FEEL SO LOST! Especially Christians!
Then
24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
This is a verse I need to copy and remind myself that this will be real someday.
Mark: That bible version you used, The Living Bible, is beautiful. I'm going to read verses from that version now too. It really is a simplified beautiful version. Thank you both so much!
This is a good place for me to put in my thanks as well....not only to you, Mark, and WW; but to all of you who explain things and shed a different light on things in a way which sharpens my understanding. I'm always thankful for anyone who does that for me.
I found this online, The Living Bible. It looks like this entire easy to read version of the bible. And say hi to your doggie for me. Woof woof. Good to work with people with good biblical sense, you ladies/girls and my friend originally from Noo Yawk, Wordwolf. Woof woof.
Sometimes I study the bible word for word using a Greek worded bible with the Strong's numbering system and since I don't actually know the Greek language I use a Greek lexicon. Other times I study with different bible versions. Other times I study with bible commentaries. All methods can be good and for our learning. It is good to have all three options depending on our state of mind at the time. Or what we have available for certain scriptures. Of course, I also always ask God for answers of truth in prayer and God teaches me all the time.
Why are you relating Genesis Chapter 3 with Romans 8:20-21? If anything this relates to another writing of Paul, 1 Corinthians chapter 15:26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. And in this bible version which can also be considered a bible commentary it says Romans 8:20 For on that day thorns and thistles, sin, death, and decay --the things that overcame the world against its will at God's command-will all disappear, and the world around us will share in the glorious freedom from sin which God's children enjoy.
Surely you can see that this is in harmony with death destroyed or disappearing. They are just stated differently with different words. No one here speaks Greek that I know of. If we want to go to the original source we need to be able to speak biblical Greek otherwise we are getting the views of other people.
Any of the options above for study should be O.K. But ask God for answers of truth in prayer. Truth needs to be spiritually discerned. This is fundamental as we see in Paul's writing 1 Corinthians 2:10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
As far as simply quoting the correct or your favorite version of the bible, the devil or a devil spirit can even do that and does this to Jesus Christ in Matthew chapter 4 or at least pretends to. We should see that quoting the bible alone is not satisfactory. We need to ask God and believe God for truth and be meek and humble to receive it.
And I see now where it mentions thorns and thistles in Genesis 3. However, this is spiritually the exact opposite relating to Genesis chapter 3. In Genesis 3 we have the negativity that is represented by thorns and thistles with the death of man the final result. In Romans 8:20-21 and 1 Corinthians 15:26 the death of mankind disappears or is destroyed. Another words, then death is NO more.
Mark, Thank you for that post to The Living Bible, I will use it, and appreciate it.
Word Wolf: I Understand TOTALLY what you are saying. I usually go by my NLT Study Bible, but I KNOW that's not the best version/translation out there. I also have an amplified (Joyce Meyer uses that exclusively) however that is a bit wordy for me. However, that being said, I ALWAYS have my old KJV bible nearby, because I KNOW that certain versions do not translate out well, and all it takes is one word to throw everything off.
I'm no bible scholar by any means, I just try to get the jist of the verse or story that's being told. But when I run into difficulties, that's when I throw a question up on this board (krys, AMEN to your post!) Or see if I can google it or use my KJV to see what that says. :)
If you're in a hurry, Bible Gateway's a good website to use.
If you have a computer (you're not using someone else's) E-sword is a good program to have.
It offers several Bible versions electronically, as well as commentaries,
and that's just counting the free public domain stuff.
(snip)
Why are you relating Genesis Chapter 3 with Romans 8:20-21? If anything this relates to another writing of Paul, 1 Corinthians chapter 15:26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. And in this bible version which can also be considered a bible commentary it says Romans 8:20 For on that day thorns and thistles, sin, death, and decay --the things that overcame the world against its will at God's command-will all disappear, and the world around us will share in the glorious freedom from sin which God's children enjoy.
Surely you can see that this is in harmony with death destroyed or disappearing. They are just stated differently with different words. No one here speaks Greek that I know of. If we want to go to the original source we need to be able to speak biblical Greek otherwise we are getting the views of other people.
Actually,
I already explained it when I said
"In the case of Romans 8:20-21, I disagree about who
cursed the ground in Genesis 3. God announced the ground was cursed, and some people
(like cg33r) have said that God cursed the ground at that time."
Why does that matter? I already explained THAT when I said
"I think that was inconsistent with the chapter. However, it's critical to the
PARAPHRASE of these 2 verses in TLB. If he was as wildly inaccurate on that
as I think he is, then there's no way to understand Romans 8:20-21
without closing the TLB and opening a different version."
If your COMMENTARY is teaching ERROR, it's not effective, at least in the parts
with the errors.
If you hear the newscasters announce deaths from accidents at night, and then
blame the newscasters for CAUSING the deaths from accidents, then it's consistent
to blame God Almighty in Genesis 3 for cursing the ground. God announced the ground
was cursed. Then other people come along, and read verses in Romans 8 where it
mentions the ground having been cursed by someone, and they ADDED that it was
GOD ALMIGHTY who cursed the ground. I find that's inconsistent with a careful
read of Genesis 3. (If you need me to break it down, start a thread on it and
I shall.)
I haven't read more than this handful of TLB. Already I found something that I object
to on grounds of being discernable error. What would I find if I made it through all
of Romans, etc?
Oh, and if you're wondering how I know "God" was inserted in the English when it was
"he" in the Greek, you've forgotten I can read a Lexicon, and it doesn't take a
large vocabulary to recognize the Greek letters in "Theos" and its cognates.
As far as simply quoting the correct or your favorite version of the bible, the devil or a devil spirit can even do that and does this to Jesus Christ in Matthew chapter 4 or at least pretends to. We should see that quoting the bible alone is not satisfactory. We need to ask God and believe God for truth and be meek and humble to receive it.
If I don't "have my senses exercised to recognize good and evil" (Hebrews 5:14), then the biggest problem
when opening my Bible isn't how long I prayed first. A devil would only learn of Scripture
to subvert or misuse it, so OBVIOUSLY just that they're quoting the Bible isn't satisfactory.
It's REALLY not the same thing as me quoting verses and expounding on them.
OBVIOUSLY.
I have nothing against recommending a prayerful attitude, humility towards God, prayers to Him
for understanding, and diligence to hear from Him. However, equating a lack of it with
a devil tempting Jesus in the wilderness is not necessary to make the point. The point was
self-evident without digressions into speculative fiction.
I'm not looking for a lengthy explanation, or discussion...my brain just doesn't work like that....but can somebody simplify this for me? Especially verse 19. What does that mean? The revealing of the son's of God? Thank you!
Wordwolf, you need to look at what she has actually requested. Not a lengthy explanation, but a simplified explanation.
Regarding, Romans 8:19,
My simplified explanation is that we start off as a corrupted human race with death to follow. Yet we end, thanks to Jesus Christ, with a spiritual glorified body in the likeness of the Son of God, Jesus Christ. We owe this all to Him and his work. At this time in the future we will be revealed also as sons of God.
I appreciated BOTH your answers. WW: You brought up some interesting points with the cursed ground. And I will read that thread. I got the gist of what I was asking...I'm still rereading yours and Marks answers to better understand it for myself. But yeah, BOTH your answers were great. :)
Wordwolf, you need to look at what she has actually requested. Not a lengthy explanation, but a simplified explanation.
Regarding, Romans 8:19,
My simplified explanation is that we start off as a corrupted human race with death to follow. Yet we end, thanks to Jesus Christ, with a spiritual glorified body in the likeness of the Son of God, Jesus Christ. We owe this all to Him and his work. At this time in the future we will be revealed also as sons of God.
I gave as simplified an explanation as I can manage-while still answering
the question and being correct- in my initial post. RG got that.
I know you seem to be especially keen on the TLB, but I'm not, and I
noted why in general, and specifically with what I consider to be an
error in what you quoted. I said it contradicted what we read elsewhere.
You asked the relevance to Romans 8:20-21 there was in Genesis 3.
So, I explained- including how the TLB introduced an error by changing a
word to match the editor's beliefs. You responded by saying this didn't
really answer her question, and wasn't brief and simple. Well, correct-
I already did that one, and in this specific case, I was answering YOUR
question, not HERS (which I answered already.) I wouldn't have gone into
the contradiction between TLB in Genesis 3 and Romans 8, but you DID ask
Wordwolf, why do you keep mentioning Genesis chapter 3? Can you see the obvious, that Genesis chapter 3 in any biblical version teaches us about the sin nature of man with the ultimate death for all of mankind? In contrast, can you see that Romans 8:19-22 in any biblical version that I have read, teaches us that we will be able to overcome our sin nature through Jesus Christ and that this will occur when God resurrects or raises his children from the dead and gives us new spiritual bodies patterned after Jesus Christ’s resurrected body?
And Twinky, please say hi to and pet your cats for me. Meow!
Wordwolf, why do you keep mentioning Genesis chapter 3?
Why do you keep asking me about it? I keep getting ready to DROP it.
Can you see the obvious, that Genesis chapter 3 in any biblical version only teaches us about the sin nature of man with the ultimate death for all of mankind?
I find the chapter includes that but does not ONLY teach that.
It is a rich chapter with a lot to tell us.
And some people think that it tells us God Almighty cursed the ground,
when it's specific that He's saying the ground is cursed, and never says
HE cursed it. Without an explicit statement one way or the other, exactly
who cursed the ground goes to opportunity and motive.
In contrast, can you see that Romans 8:19-22 in any biblical version that I have read, teaches us that we will be able to overcome our sin nature through Jesus Christ and that this will occur when God resurrects or raises his children from the dead and gives us new spiritual bodies patterned after Jesus Christ’s resurrected body?
Not only can I see that, I mentioned it before you did. *points up the thread*
However, the PARAPHRASE of the verse I mentioned in Romans 8 rather specifically
said that God Almighty cursed the ground, when He was not named as the curser,
neither in Genesis 3 when it happened, nor in the texts of Romans 8...
but he's named when the editor did the PARAPHRASE.
It's easy to prove he inserted the name. IMHO, it's relatively easy to conclude
he was incorrect in his thinking to think so.
Meanwhile, RG wanted to know about what we previously discussed, so we discussed it.
In the process, you lauded TLB highly and quoted those verses. I pointed out the
relative strengths and weaknesses of relying on a paraphrase Bible, and used the
verses you quoted to illustrate my point. All of that- the recommendation and the
disagreement- had nothing to do with the initial question, but this happens sometimes
in dialogues. Since you insisted I explain, and you brought in the side-discussion
of versions, I hardly think it's appropriate to act like I'm the SOLE poster who
didn't stick STRICTLY to the question.
For God's sake, are we finished with Genesis 3 now?
And Twinky, please say hi to and pet your cats for me. Meow!
We've never met, but give them a scritch for me if you get a chance.
O.K. I see your point and no I too don't believe God literally cursed the ground. Nor do I believe that God literally causes man to sin. However, God does allow this to happen and God does take some indirect responsibility for the sin nature of mankind. Surely you can see this through the sacrifice of the Son of God.
So because of one or two incorrect scriptures you want to throw out an entire version of the bible. That is not necessary. Your link even said that a number of versions of the bible can be considered commentaries and I mentioned that even before I read it. Even though I too have written biblical commentaries and posted them on the internet to help educate people I am not going to belittle any version of the bible. Why do you want to do that? The people that worked on them have covered many verses to help us with our understanding. I appreciate their work and efforts regardless of whether or not I disagree with a few of their scriptural references or commentaries.
O.K. I see your point and no I too don't believe God literally cursed the ground. Nor do I believe that God literally causes man to sin. However, God does allow this to happen and God does take some indirect responsibility for the sin nature of mankind. Surely you can see this through the sacrifice of the Son of God.
I can see that, although assigning even indirect responsibility for that to God Almighty is something I wouldn't do
other than to say the alternative was that He could (or should) have made humans with stunted free will
so sin wasn't an option.
Technically, He bears that indirect responsibility.
So because of one or two incorrect scriptures you want to throw out an entire version of the bible. That is not necessary.
Of course it's not necessary. It's also nothing like what I said. (Strawman.)
A) "Because of one or two incorrect scriptures." I know of one just from
the little snippet you posted. If I had a lot more time, I'm sure I'd find
a LOT more, if only because, statistically, to have just hit the ONE place
with ONE error in an entire Bible with only ONE sample to draw from is like
winning the Powerball lottery after ever only buying one ticket.
B) Who said anything about throwing out an entire version of the Bible?
I said I don't use paraphrases, and why I don't. (And frankly, you demonstrated
my point about their inherent weakness in the one snippet you quoted.)
(Strawman.)
Your link even said that a number of versions of the bible can be considered commentaries and I mentioned that even before I read it. Even though I too have written biblical commentaries and posted them on the internet to help educate people I am not going to belittle any version of the bible. Why do you want to do that?
When I'm reading a commentary, I like to know when I'm reading a commentary.
When I'm reading what's supposed to be unadorned verses, I like to know that.
They are good for different things and should be read with different approaches.
I recommended E-Sword on this thread and mentioned it had commentaries for it
that could be integrated for free, so it's obvious I don't have problems with
commentaries or with using them. I have problems with mislabeling a commentary
as something else. It leads people to conclusions they would not have if they
were told the truth.
The book "Roots" by Alex Haley was a work of fiction with no real research nor
historical accuracy to it. Yet, people were told it was accurate historically,
as in "things happened like this." So, a lot of people finished the book and
thought they knew HISTORICALLY how things happened that didn't happen that
way. I object to that. If they'd been told "this is historical fiction and
is not based on research" (like, say, the movie "A Knight's Tale", inspired
by Chaucer's fictional "Knight's Tale), then I have no problem with people
reading it because they should expect- fairly- entertainment but not
historical education.
So, a commentary should be labeled exactly that, so it can be used for its
proper purposes and for nothing else.
What's so objectionable about that?
The people that worked on them have covered many verses to help us with our understanding. I appreciate their work and efforts regardless of whether or not I disagree with a few of their scriptural references or commentaries.
That makes them commentaries.
In many cases, that makes them laudable and noteworthy commentaries, and quite useful.
How would you feel if a friend offered to drive you to the airport in his "car",
and when he showed up, he was riding a bicycle, and said he considered that his
"car" since it's how he got around, and he considered it superior to using the
"other type of car" because it's environmentally friendly?
I don't know, Mark. I'm not feeling like this is the same "Mark" I've corresponded
with here over the years. I feel like "he" would have gotten my points immediately
and not objected to things I didn't say and then blame me for saying them.
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WordWolf
I Corinthians 2:6-9 (NASB)
6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; 7 but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; 9 but just as it is written,
“Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard,
And which have not entered the heart of man,
All that God has prepared for those who love Him.”
=====================================
Short explanation: What God Almighty has prepared for us in the future is mind-blowing and
don't even try to figure all of it out. It's a surprise- for us and for everyone else.
======================================
Romans 8:16-25 (NASB)
16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
===============================================
Short explanation: As a result of our identification in Christ,
just as Christ was foretold to suffer and then be glorified later,
and then suffered and was glorified later,
we suffer now and will be glorified in the future.
At the appointed time, just as Jesus was transformed and glorified,
we'll be transformed and-at long last, like the end of labor pains,
this current suffering will be over and our unveiled selves will be
revealed. That is our Hope (part of it, at least.)
That's as short and simple as I can make this concept and this passage.
I had to include surrounding verses for context.
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RottieGrrrl
WW Thank you so much for that! I'm at work now in the middle of something, and can't digest it as much as I like right now. but WOW! I didn't expect it to mean that! That means a lot to me, you just don't know. The scripture and it's meaning I mean. Wow. So I guess it will all be worth it, more than we know. Wow. Because sometimes I get so damn weary and just wonder what the whole point is, and then I feel bad because I KNOW how much Jesus did, and DOES for us every day. Okay, back to work for now....
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Mark Sanguinetti
Below is a version of the bible that will help and simplify our understanding of these verses. It is the Living Bible Version, which is legitimate and good. I have included some of the verses before and after your requested verses for the immediate context.
Romans 8:15-25
15 And so we should not be like cringing, fearful slaves, but we should behave like God's very own children, adopted into the bosom of his family, and calling to him, "Father, Father." 16 For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts and tells us that we really are God's children. 17 And since we are his children, we will share his treasures-for all God gives to his Son Jesus is now ours too. But if we are to share his glory, we must also share his suffering.
18 Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will give us later. 19 For all creation is waiting patiently and hopefully for that future day when God will resurrect his children. 20 For on that day thorns and thistles, sin, death, and decay --the things that overcame the world against its will at God's command-will all disappear, and the world around us will share in the glorious freedom from sin which God's children enjoy.
22 For we know that even the things of nature, like animals and plants, suffer in sickness and death as they await this great event.
23 And even we Christians, although we have the Holy Spirit within us as a foretaste of future glory, also groan to be released from pain and suffering. We, too, wait anxiously for that day when God will give us our full rights as his children, including the new bodies he has promised us-bodies that will never be sick again and will never die.
24 We are saved by trusting. And trusting means looking forward to getting something we don't yet have-for a man who already has something doesn't need to hope and trust that he will get it. 25 But if we must keep trusting God for something that hasn't happened yet, it teaches us to wait patiently and confidently.
The Living Bible
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RottieGrrrl
Thank you Mark!
Okay, this helps a lot. First, what I'm seeing is the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;
That makes it sounds like people who would not have crucified this. The reason I'm saying this is I was led to believe this verse was talking about satan never would have crucified Jesus. Which makes no sense seeing it in the context of this verse.
Then what I'm seeing is . But if we are to share his glory, we must also share his suffering. 18 Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will give us later. Okay, I saw a preacher who taught on this. And he said no matter how awful things seem in this life, nothing the devil does can outshine what God has in store for us. I really had a hard time swallowing that at the time, but I'm seeing it MUCH clearer now.
Then: having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. NO WONDER PEOPLE FEEL SO LOST! Especially Christians!
Then
24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
This is a verse I need to copy and remind myself that this will be real someday.
Mark: That bible version you used, The Living Bible, is beautiful. I'm going to read verses from that version now too. It really is a simplified beautiful version. Thank you both so much!
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krys
This is a good place for me to put in my thanks as well....not only to you, Mark, and WW; but to all of you who explain things and shed a different light on things in a way which sharpens my understanding. I'm always thankful for anyone who does that for me.
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Mark Sanguinetti
I found this online, The Living Bible. It looks like this entire easy to read version of the bible. And say hi to your doggie for me. Woof woof. Good to work with people with good biblical sense, you ladies/girls and my friend originally from Noo Yawk, Wordwolf. Woof woof.
The Living Bible
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WordWolf
I am VERY hesitant to spend time in PARAPHRASE Bibles. The Living Bible, like the Amplified Bible,
is a paraphrase of what the texts say, and often the difference is dramatic.
I noticed that especially here in Romans 8:20-21, where the meaning seemed to make a great
leap away from the text. My concern is- I'm locking my understanding ENTIRELY into the
understanding of whoever was in charge of the paraphrase. In the case of the TLB,
that's better than the average schmoe who never reads a Bible, but frankly I feel he
missed some things I don't miss. In the case of Romans 8:20-21, I disagree about who
cursed the ground in Genesis 3. God announced the ground was cursed, and some people
(like cg33r) have said that God cursed the ground at that time. I think that was inconsistent
with the chapter. However, it's critical to the PARAPHRASE of these 2 verses in TLB.
If he was as wildly inaccurate on that as I think he is, then there's no way to understand
Romans 8:20-21 without closing the TLB and opening a different version.
There's 3 types of Bible- word for word, concept for concept and paraphrases.
Word for word Bibles try to make the most direct translation possible, and are the best
for actual study. Concept for concept are a step further, and I avoid paraphrases
whenever possible for that.
Here's a link to a pdf that explains the relative strengths of some English versions:
https://www.churchpublishing.org/media/custom/IN-Formation/NewBibleTranslations.pdf
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Mark Sanguinetti
Sometimes I study the bible word for word using a Greek worded bible with the Strong's numbering system and since I don't actually know the Greek language I use a Greek lexicon. Other times I study with different bible versions. Other times I study with bible commentaries. All methods can be good and for our learning. It is good to have all three options depending on our state of mind at the time. Or what we have available for certain scriptures. Of course, I also always ask God for answers of truth in prayer and God teaches me all the time.
Why are you relating Genesis Chapter 3 with Romans 8:20-21? If anything this relates to another writing of Paul, 1 Corinthians chapter 15:26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. And in this bible version which can also be considered a bible commentary it says Romans 8:20 For on that day thorns and thistles, sin, death, and decay --the things that overcame the world against its will at God's command-will all disappear, and the world around us will share in the glorious freedom from sin which God's children enjoy.
Surely you can see that this is in harmony with death destroyed or disappearing. They are just stated differently with different words. No one here speaks Greek that I know of. If we want to go to the original source we need to be able to speak biblical Greek otherwise we are getting the views of other people.
Any of the options above for study should be O.K. But ask God for answers of truth in prayer. Truth needs to be spiritually discerned. This is fundamental as we see in Paul's writing 1 Corinthians 2:10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
As far as simply quoting the correct or your favorite version of the bible, the devil or a devil spirit can even do that and does this to Jesus Christ in Matthew chapter 4 or at least pretends to. We should see that quoting the bible alone is not satisfactory. We need to ask God and believe God for truth and be meek and humble to receive it.
And I see now where it mentions thorns and thistles in Genesis 3. However, this is spiritually the exact opposite relating to Genesis chapter 3. In Genesis 3 we have the negativity that is represented by thorns and thistles with the death of man the final result. In Romans 8:20-21 and 1 Corinthians 15:26 the death of mankind disappears or is destroyed. Another words, then death is NO more.
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RottieGrrrl
Mark, Thank you for that post to The Living Bible, I will use it, and appreciate it.
Word Wolf: I Understand TOTALLY what you are saying. I usually go by my NLT Study Bible, but I KNOW that's not the best version/translation out there. I also have an amplified (Joyce Meyer uses that exclusively) however that is a bit wordy for me. However, that being said, I ALWAYS have my old KJV bible nearby, because I KNOW that certain versions do not translate out well, and all it takes is one word to throw everything off.
I'm no bible scholar by any means, I just try to get the jist of the verse or story that's being told. But when I run into difficulties, that's when I throw a question up on this board (krys, AMEN to your post!) Or see if I can google it or use my KJV to see what that says. :)
Oh and thanks WW too for that handly link. :)
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WordWolf
If you're in a hurry, Bible Gateway's a good website to use.
If you have a computer (you're not using someone else's) E-sword is a good program to have.
It offers several Bible versions electronically, as well as commentaries,
and that's just counting the free public domain stuff.
Actually,
I already explained it when I said
"In the case of Romans 8:20-21, I disagree about who
cursed the ground in Genesis 3. God announced the ground was cursed, and some people
(like cg33r) have said that God cursed the ground at that time."
Why does that matter? I already explained THAT when I said
"I think that was inconsistent with the chapter. However, it's critical to the
PARAPHRASE of these 2 verses in TLB. If he was as wildly inaccurate on that
as I think he is, then there's no way to understand Romans 8:20-21
without closing the TLB and opening a different version."
If your COMMENTARY is teaching ERROR, it's not effective, at least in the parts
with the errors.
If you hear the newscasters announce deaths from accidents at night, and then
blame the newscasters for CAUSING the deaths from accidents, then it's consistent
to blame God Almighty in Genesis 3 for cursing the ground. God announced the ground
was cursed. Then other people come along, and read verses in Romans 8 where it
mentions the ground having been cursed by someone, and they ADDED that it was
GOD ALMIGHTY who cursed the ground. I find that's inconsistent with a careful
read of Genesis 3. (If you need me to break it down, start a thread on it and
I shall.)
I haven't read more than this handful of TLB. Already I found something that I object
to on grounds of being discernable error. What would I find if I made it through all
of Romans, etc?
Oh, and if you're wondering how I know "God" was inserted in the English when it was
"he" in the Greek, you've forgotten I can read a Lexicon, and it doesn't take a
large vocabulary to recognize the Greek letters in "Theos" and its cognates.
If I don't "have my senses exercised to recognize good and evil" (Hebrews 5:14), then the biggest problem
when opening my Bible isn't how long I prayed first. A devil would only learn of Scripture
to subvert or misuse it, so OBVIOUSLY just that they're quoting the Bible isn't satisfactory.
It's REALLY not the same thing as me quoting verses and expounding on them.
OBVIOUSLY.
I have nothing against recommending a prayerful attitude, humility towards God, prayers to Him
for understanding, and diligence to hear from Him. However, equating a lack of it with
a devil tempting Jesus in the wilderness is not necessary to make the point. The point was
self-evident without digressions into speculative fiction.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Wordwolf, you need to look at what she has actually requested. Not a lengthy explanation, but a simplified explanation.
Regarding, Romans 8:19,
My simplified explanation is that we start off as a corrupted human race with death to follow. Yet we end, thanks to Jesus Christ, with a spiritual glorified body in the likeness of the Son of God, Jesus Christ. We owe this all to Him and his work. At this time in the future we will be revealed also as sons of God.
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RottieGrrrl
I appreciated BOTH your answers. WW: You brought up some interesting points with the cursed ground. And I will read that thread. I got the gist of what I was asking...I'm still rereading yours and Marks answers to better understand it for myself. But yeah, BOTH your answers were great. :)
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WordWolf
I gave as simplified an explanation as I can manage-while still answering
the question and being correct- in my initial post. RG got that.
I know you seem to be especially keen on the TLB, but I'm not, and I
noted why in general, and specifically with what I consider to be an
error in what you quoted. I said it contradicted what we read elsewhere.
You asked the relevance to Romans 8:20-21 there was in Genesis 3.
So, I explained- including how the TLB introduced an error by changing a
word to match the editor's beliefs. You responded by saying this didn't
really answer her question, and wasn't brief and simple. Well, correct-
I already did that one, and in this specific case, I was answering YOUR
question, not HERS (which I answered already.) I wouldn't have gone into
the contradiction between TLB in Genesis 3 and Romans 8, but you DID ask
me to explain.
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Twinky
Peace, guys. Take it easy.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Wordwolf, why do you keep mentioning Genesis chapter 3? Can you see the obvious, that Genesis chapter 3 in any biblical version teaches us about the sin nature of man with the ultimate death for all of mankind? In contrast, can you see that Romans 8:19-22 in any biblical version that I have read, teaches us that we will be able to overcome our sin nature through Jesus Christ and that this will occur when God resurrects or raises his children from the dead and gives us new spiritual bodies patterned after Jesus Christ’s resurrected body?
And Twinky, please say hi to and pet your cats for me. Meow!
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WordWolf
Why do you keep asking me about it? I keep getting ready to DROP it.
I find the chapter includes that but does not ONLY teach that.
It is a rich chapter with a lot to tell us.
And some people think that it tells us God Almighty cursed the ground,
when it's specific that He's saying the ground is cursed, and never says
HE cursed it. Without an explicit statement one way or the other, exactly
who cursed the ground goes to opportunity and motive.
Not only can I see that, I mentioned it before you did. *points up the thread*
However, the PARAPHRASE of the verse I mentioned in Romans 8 rather specifically
said that God Almighty cursed the ground, when He was not named as the curser,
neither in Genesis 3 when it happened, nor in the texts of Romans 8...
but he's named when the editor did the PARAPHRASE.
It's easy to prove he inserted the name. IMHO, it's relatively easy to conclude
he was incorrect in his thinking to think so.
Meanwhile, RG wanted to know about what we previously discussed, so we discussed it.
In the process, you lauded TLB highly and quoted those verses. I pointed out the
relative strengths and weaknesses of relying on a paraphrase Bible, and used the
verses you quoted to illustrate my point. All of that- the recommendation and the
disagreement- had nothing to do with the initial question, but this happens sometimes
in dialogues. Since you insisted I explain, and you brought in the side-discussion
of versions, I hardly think it's appropriate to act like I'm the SOLE poster who
didn't stick STRICTLY to the question.
For God's sake, are we finished with Genesis 3 now?
We've never met, but give them a scritch for me if you get a chance.
Cats like scritches.
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Mark Sanguinetti
O.K. I see your point and no I too don't believe God literally cursed the ground. Nor do I believe that God literally causes man to sin. However, God does allow this to happen and God does take some indirect responsibility for the sin nature of mankind. Surely you can see this through the sacrifice of the Son of God.
So because of one or two incorrect scriptures you want to throw out an entire version of the bible. That is not necessary. Your link even said that a number of versions of the bible can be considered commentaries and I mentioned that even before I read it. Even though I too have written biblical commentaries and posted them on the internet to help educate people I am not going to belittle any version of the bible. Why do you want to do that? The people that worked on them have covered many verses to help us with our understanding. I appreciate their work and efforts regardless of whether or not I disagree with a few of their scriptural references or commentaries.
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Twinky
The girlies have enjoyed their hellos and scritches, thank you very much.
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WordWolf
I can see that, although assigning even indirect responsibility for that to God Almighty is something I wouldn't do
other than to say the alternative was that He could (or should) have made humans with stunted free will
so sin wasn't an option.
Technically, He bears that indirect responsibility.
Of course it's not necessary. It's also nothing like what I said. (Strawman.)
A) "Because of one or two incorrect scriptures." I know of one just from
the little snippet you posted. If I had a lot more time, I'm sure I'd find
a LOT more, if only because, statistically, to have just hit the ONE place
with ONE error in an entire Bible with only ONE sample to draw from is like
winning the Powerball lottery after ever only buying one ticket.
B) Who said anything about throwing out an entire version of the Bible?
I said I don't use paraphrases, and why I don't. (And frankly, you demonstrated
my point about their inherent weakness in the one snippet you quoted.)
(Strawman.)
When I'm reading a commentary, I like to know when I'm reading a commentary.
When I'm reading what's supposed to be unadorned verses, I like to know that.
They are good for different things and should be read with different approaches.
I recommended E-Sword on this thread and mentioned it had commentaries for it
that could be integrated for free, so it's obvious I don't have problems with
commentaries or with using them. I have problems with mislabeling a commentary
as something else. It leads people to conclusions they would not have if they
were told the truth.
The book "Roots" by Alex Haley was a work of fiction with no real research nor
historical accuracy to it. Yet, people were told it was accurate historically,
as in "things happened like this." So, a lot of people finished the book and
thought they knew HISTORICALLY how things happened that didn't happen that
way. I object to that. If they'd been told "this is historical fiction and
is not based on research" (like, say, the movie "A Knight's Tale", inspired
by Chaucer's fictional "Knight's Tale), then I have no problem with people
reading it because they should expect- fairly- entertainment but not
historical education.
So, a commentary should be labeled exactly that, so it can be used for its
proper purposes and for nothing else.
What's so objectionable about that?
That makes them commentaries.
In many cases, that makes them laudable and noteworthy commentaries, and quite useful.
How would you feel if a friend offered to drive you to the airport in his "car",
and when he showed up, he was riding a bicycle, and said he considered that his
"car" since it's how he got around, and he considered it superior to using the
"other type of car" because it's environmentally friendly?
I don't know, Mark. I'm not feeling like this is the same "Mark" I've corresponded
with here over the years. I feel like "he" would have gotten my points immediately
and not objected to things I didn't say and then blame me for saying them.
I find this peculiar.
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