If we're tracing much of our bad behavior to imitating people who imitated VPW, is he really the source?
I think you have raised a valid point.
Having talked to you on this forum in the past, I am aware you are quite a bit younger than me and raised in a much different environment. My generation grew up in an environment that, like Wierwille's, was highly focused on the man being in charge, whether it be in business, in finances or in marriage. So, in that respect, Wierwille was a product of his upbringing and his times. What set Wierwille apart, however, from Uncle Joe or Grandpa Cletus or our own fathers was perceived credibility. We gave Wierwille some kind of special credibility that we didn't give to our more familiar examples. It's a bit ironic,really, that by revolting against the status quo, we looked to someone who personified it.
If we're tracing much of our bad behavior to imitating people who imitated VPW, is he really the source?
Actually, having been in the 9th way corpse, it wasn't just imitating people who imitated Dictor. I was a target of his wrath personally a couple of times.
Actually, having been in the 9th way corpse, it wasn't just imitating people who imitated Dictor. I was a target of his wrath personally a couple of times.
Yes, I believe there's more than just imitation. By imitation I mean looking up to someone out of a desire to be better.
Coercion, intimidation, flat out fear, is another ingredient, to developing or altering our behavior. Is that what you mean?
Yes, I believe there's more than just imitation. By imitation I mean looking up to someone out of a desire to be better.
Coercion, intimidation, flat out fear, is another ingredient, to developing or altering our behavior. Is that what you mean?
Of course. But also that LCM and VPW were not only the archetypes of people who influenced me, I got dosed with their wrath directly, as opposed to second or third hand.
Of course. But also that LCM and VPW were not only the archetypes of people who influenced me, I got dosed with their wrath directly, as opposed to second or third hand.
Can I ask if you noticed anything different about them, their "wrath", as compared to when confronted by the "imitators"? Did they really get in your face?
Can I ask if you noticed anything different about them, their "wrath", as compared to when confronted by the "imitators"? Did they really get in your face?
Forgive me for interrupting but I have a take on this. The imitators, as you call them, were play acting and you could tell. I'd walk away from VP of LCM (and there were others) all shaken up with my thoughts in a jumble. I'd walk away from an "imitator" laughing under my breath. Sometimes laughing out loud depending on who they were. With them, it was like being violently attacked by a house cat that had no claws or teeth. To answer your question, yes they got in your face but they made fools of themselves.
Forgive me for interrupting but I have a take on this. The imitators, as you call them, were play acting and you could tell. I'd walk away from VP of LCM (and there were others) all shaken up with my thoughts in a jumble. I'd walk away from an "imitator" laughing under my breath. Sometimes laughing out loud depending on who they were. With them, it was like being violently attacked by a house cat that had no claws or teeth. To answer your question, yes they got in your face but they made fools of themselves.
Was the difference in the words, was there a physical difference?
Can I ask if you noticed anything different about them, their "wrath", as compared to when confronted by the "imitators"? Did they really get in your face?
You can always ask. You may or may not be satisfied with whether you get answers to your questions. But it never hurts to ask.
I don't really have recollection of any serious confrontations by LCM or VPW wannabees. That could partially be because I didn't take them seriously.
I think the key may be in the word "wannabee." Young children learn by imitating their parents, siblings and others with whom they come in contact.
That's what happened a LOT with the way corpse. But it took, IMO, a special kind of arrogance and hate to instill the kind of terror in people that LCM and VPW did.
But then again, it made enough of an impression on me that I let it adversely impact my family relationships. Which is what I was saying that perhaps inspired the
But then again, it made enough of an impression on me that I let it adversely impact my family relationships. Which is what I was saying that perhaps inspired the first post on this thread.
But then again, it made enough of an impression on me that I let it adversely impact my family relationships. Which is what I was saying that perhaps inspired the
first post on this thread.
Well I know in twi at least, that sort of behavior, the harshness and yelling, at times brought people together. Not saying that it's right or wrong. I know behavior expected in twi is shunned elsewhere. Relationship expectations regarding appropriate behavior can change depending on context. What brought people together in twi could destroy what they have outside. In twi you knew to treat people "on the outside" differently. The context of these relationships would be a factor in labeling what is toxic behavior, IMO, since there's no one way to survive.
I can remember going back home after Way D, (more intense analog of W.O.W. I'm told). I was maybe 20.
Very harsh reproving my folks, "reproving" left and right. They were proud, never had seen them so happy. That's what they wanted to see. They couldn't get enough. They want "toxic behavior".
The delivery, the harshness, didn't seem to matter. It's just how they talk. It matters to much of the rest of the world on the outside. Not to waybots. Why?
I can remember going back home after Way D, (more intense analog of W.O.W. I'm told). I was maybe 20.
Very harsh reproving my folks, "reproving" left and right. They were proud, never had seen them so happy. That's what they wanted to see. They couldn't get enough. They want "toxic behavior".
The delivery, the harshness, didn't seem to matter. It's just how they talk. It matters to much of the rest of the world on the outside. Not to waybots. Why?
I can remember going back home after Way D, (more intense analog of W.O.W. I'm told). I was maybe 20.
Very harsh reproving my folks, "reproving" left and right. They were proud, never had seen them so happy. That's what they wanted to see. They couldn't get enough. They want "toxic behavior".
The delivery, the harshness, didn't seem to matter. It's just how they talk. It matters to much of the rest of the world on the outside. Not to waybots. Why?
In Way World, we were told that to be this way (harsh, confrontational, etc.) was being loving. They used this verse:
Galatians 6:1
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such a one in the spirit of meekness, considering thyself unless thou also be tempted.
They took that term meekness and made it out to be "meekness to the word" instead of "gentleness" or "humility" as it is rendered in other version of the Bible other than the King James.
Then they used this verse:
I John 5:2
By this we know we love the children of God, when we love God and keep his commandments.
So, to love the children of God, we have to keep his commandments - not actually LOVE them, not be NICE or CARING to them - NOOOOOOOO. WE DO THE WORD AND THAT IS ENOUGH AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, TOO FRIGGIN' BAD.
And then tie in the whole "be in control of your emotions" stuff and you have a really big mess on your hands.
People in TWI changed Love (which God IS) into "DOING THE WORD" . We do the Word when we RESTORE each other when they are at fault by being meek to the WORD.
It all gets screwed up from there.
THIS is changing the truth of God into a lie and worshipping and serving the creation (The BIble) more than the Creator.
2 Peter 2:3 NIV
In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
Identification with an aggressor — In psychology, an unconscious process in which a person adopts the perspective or behavior patterns of a captor or abuser. Some researchers consider it a partial explanation of Stockholm syndrome.
Regression — In psychology, a return to earlier, usually childish or infantile, patterns of thought or behavior.
Maybe you're right
. .
People in TWI changed Love . . into "DOING THE WORD" . . .
In Way World, we were told that to be this way (harsh, confrontational, etc.) was being loving. They used this verse:
Galatians 6:1
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such a one in the spirit of meekness, considering thyself unless thou also be tempted.
They took that term meekness and made it out to be "meekness to the word" instead of "gentleness" or "humility" as it is rendered in other version of the Bible other than the King James.
Then they used this verse:
I John 5:2
By this we know we love the children of God, when we love God and keep his commandments.
So, to love the children of God, we have to keep his commandments - not actually LOVE them, not be NICE or CARING to them - NOOOOOOOO. WE DO THE WORD AND THAT IS ENOUGH AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, TOO FRIGGIN' BAD.
And then tie in the whole "be in control of your emotions" stuff and you have a really big mess on your hands.
People in TWI changed Love (which God IS) into "DOING THE WORD" ™. We do the Word when we RESTORE each other when they are at fault by being meek to the WORD.
It all gets screwed up from there.
THIS is changing the truth of God into a lie and worshipping and serving the creation (The BIble) more than the Creator.
2 Peter 2:3 NIV
In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
Excellent analysis, IMO. Thanks for articulating it.
I can remember going back home after Way D, (more intense analog of W.O.W. I'm told). I was maybe 20.
Very harsh reproving my folks, "reproving" left and right. They were proud, never had seen them so happy. That's what they wanted to see. They couldn't get enough. They want "toxic behavior".
The delivery, the harshness, didn't seem to matter. It's just how they talk. It matters to much of the rest of the world on the outside. Not to waybots. Why?
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Bolshevik
I certainly care.
If we're tracing much of our bad behavior to imitating people who imitated VPW, is he really the source?
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waysider
I think you have raised a valid point.
Having talked to you on this forum in the past, I am aware you are quite a bit younger than me and raised in a much different environment. My generation grew up in an environment that, like Wierwille's, was highly focused on the man being in charge, whether it be in business, in finances or in marriage. So, in that respect, Wierwille was a product of his upbringing and his times. What set Wierwille apart, however, from Uncle Joe or Grandpa Cletus or our own fathers was perceived credibility. We gave Wierwille some kind of special credibility that we didn't give to our more familiar examples. It's a bit ironic,really, that by revolting against the status quo, we looked to someone who personified it.
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Bolshevik
That makes a lot sense, thanks Waysider.
In your opening post, "Too many of us patterned our lives after his "machismo" example."
We're talking strictly about marriages here? And as it pertains to the husband alone?
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waysider
"We're talking strictly about marriages here? And as it pertains to the husband alone?"
That's what initially sparked the thread but there is certainly room to expand on it.
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Rocky
Actually, having been in the 9th way corpse, it wasn't just imitating people who imitated Dictor. I was a target of his wrath personally a couple of times.
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Bolshevik
Yes, I believe there's more than just imitation. By imitation I mean looking up to someone out of a desire to be better.
Coercion, intimidation, flat out fear, is another ingredient, to developing or altering our behavior. Is that what you mean?
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Rocky
Of course. But also that LCM and VPW were not only the archetypes of people who influenced me, I got dosed with their wrath directly, as opposed to second or third hand.
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Bolshevik
Can I ask if you noticed anything different about them, their "wrath", as compared to when confronted by the "imitators"? Did they really get in your face?
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Broken Arrow
Forgive me for interrupting but I have a take on this. The imitators, as you call them, were play acting and you could tell. I'd walk away from VP of LCM (and there were others) all shaken up with my thoughts in a jumble. I'd walk away from an "imitator" laughing under my breath. Sometimes laughing out loud depending on who they were. With them, it was like being violently attacked by a house cat that had no claws or teeth. To answer your question, yes they got in your face but they made fools of themselves.
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Bolshevik
Was the difference in the words, was there a physical difference?
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Rocky
You can always ask. You may or may not be satisfied with whether you get answers to your questions. But it never hurts to ask.
I don't really have recollection of any serious confrontations by LCM or VPW wannabees. That could partially be because I didn't take them seriously.
I think the key may be in the word "wannabee." Young children learn by imitating their parents, siblings and others with whom they come in contact.
That's what happened a LOT with the way corpse. But it took, IMO, a special kind of arrogance and hate to instill the kind of terror in people that LCM and VPW did.
But then again, it made enough of an impression on me that I let it adversely impact my family relationships. Which is what I was saying that perhaps inspired the
first post on this thread.
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waysider
Precisely.
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Bolshevik
Well I know in twi at least, that sort of behavior, the harshness and yelling, at times brought people together. Not saying that it's right or wrong. I know behavior expected in twi is shunned elsewhere. Relationship expectations regarding appropriate behavior can change depending on context. What brought people together in twi could destroy what they have outside. In twi you knew to treat people "on the outside" differently. The context of these relationships would be a factor in labeling what is toxic behavior, IMO, since there's no one way to survive.
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Bolshevik
I can remember going back home after Way D, (more intense analog of W.O.W. I'm told). I was maybe 20.
Very harsh reproving my folks, "reproving" left and right. They were proud, never had seen them so happy. That's what they wanted to see. They couldn't get enough. They want "toxic behavior".
The delivery, the harshness, didn't seem to matter. It's just how they talk. It matters to much of the rest of the world on the outside. Not to waybots. Why?
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waysider
Maybe it's a variation of Stockholm Syndrome.
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JavaJane
In Way World, we were told that to be this way (harsh, confrontational, etc.) was being loving. They used this verse:
Galatians 6:1
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such a one in the spirit of meekness, considering thyself unless thou also be tempted.
They took that term meekness and made it out to be "meekness to the word" instead of "gentleness" or "humility" as it is rendered in other version of the Bible other than the King James.
Then they used this verse:
I John 5:2
By this we know we love the children of God, when we love God and keep his commandments.
So, to love the children of God, we have to keep his commandments - not actually LOVE them, not be NICE or CARING to them - NOOOOOOOO. WE DO THE WORD AND THAT IS ENOUGH AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, TOO FRIGGIN' BAD.
And then tie in the whole "be in control of your emotions" stuff and you have a really big mess on your hands.
People in TWI changed Love (which God IS) into "DOING THE WORD" . We do the Word when we RESTORE each other when they are at fault by being meek to the WORD.
It all gets screwed up from there.
THIS is changing the truth of God into a lie and worshipping and serving the creation (The BIble) more than the Creator.
2 Peter 2:3 NIV
In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
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Bolshevik
(from link)
Identification with an aggressor — In psychology, an unconscious process in which a person adopts the perspective or behavior patterns of a captor or abuser. Some researchers consider it a partial explanation of Stockholm syndrome.
Regression — In psychology, a return to earlier, usually childish or infantile, patterns of thought or behavior.
Maybe you're right
Definitely.
. . .*TM* . ha ha ha
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Rocky
Excellent analysis, IMO. Thanks for articulating it.
Group norms.
And yes, Stockholm Syndrome.
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