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teachmevp

Good Old Doc. Taught It Wrong!

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When Paul’s ministry to the Gentiles was getting underway before God’s Word was complete...was send a handkerchief in order for God through his power from on high to jump into action and perform a miraculous sign for the sick. (Acts 19:11-12) Do you believe that someone could send you a handkerchief and with that handkerchief you're just automatically going to be healed of all manner of sickness and disease? God certainly worked that way in that day. But, Paul himself, revealed a change that was to take place as the ascended Savior let Paul know that change would be coming. 1 Corinthians 13:8, these were  signed gifts; the ability to proclaim God’s message prior to the completion of God’s Word through the supernatural empowerment of God’s power from on high.

 

1 Corinthians 13:9, it would have been impossible for the prophets of that day, those proclaiming the truth of God before the completed Word of God to reveal all the knowledge of God that would be contained in that completed Word of God. Paul’s epistles were to be passed from assembly to assembly, but keep in mind, he’d only completed 3 letters up to the point of what he’s telling us right here. All the written word the saints had up to that time, pertaining to the dispensation of grace was Galatians and the two letters to the saints at Thessalonica. Paul kept getting more revelations from the ascended Savior on what to tell us and the way God’s working with us today. 

 

1 Corinthians 13:10, when that which was to be finished comes to completion, there would be no need for the sign gifts to remain in operation. What was unfinished at that time? Paul’s writings to the Body of the Savior of this age!2 Corinthians 12:7-10, notice the change in operation that was beginning to take place in this new, previously undisclosed dispensation. What revelations? The revealing of the secret that God had been keeping where we Gentiles are concerned in light of Israel’s program being placed on the shelf for a time; the revelations concerning the change in program relative to the new dispensation God was ushering in.

 

2 Timothy 4:19-20, Trophimus have I left at Miletum SICK. No handkerchief, no anointing with oil, no laying on of hands, no naming it and claiming it, no power of a positive confession, no seed faith sowing, no prayer of faith prayer meeting mentioned whatsoever, just the truth resident in Ephesians 3:20 in light of God’s change of operation in connection with his new program and the dispensation of the grace of God. We can now trust the truth of Romans 8:28.

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4 hours ago, teachmevp said:

Paul kept getting more revelations from the ascended Savior on what to tell us and the way God’s working with us today. 

Appears to me that's rather presumptuous.  What makes you so sure that he didn't receive the vast majority, if not all, the revelation of the gospel given to him while he was in the Arabian desert (Mt. Sinai ?) before he ever started preaching a word of it? 

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Achieving God’s goals for our ambassadorship is learning to distinguish his goal, from his desire. It is a critical distinction, because it can spell the difference between success and failure. His goal is any specific result reflecting his purposes for our ambassadorship, that does not depend on people or circumstances beyond our ability. The only person who can block his goal or render it uncertain or impossible is us, and if we adopt the attitude of cooperation with his goals, his goal can be reached. His desire is any specific result that depends on the cooperation of other people or the success of events or favorable circumstances we cannot control. 

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On December 20, 2016 at 5:33 PM, TLC said:

Appears to me that's rather presumptuous.  What makes you so sure that he didn't receive the vast majority, if not all, the revelation of the gospel given to him while he was in the Arabian desert (Mt. Sinai ?) before he ever started preaching a word of it? 

Paul had the wrong goals and keep wanting to go to the Israelites. That program was put on hold. So God imprisoned Paul so to speak and his word was finally complete out of a prison.  

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1 hour ago, teachmevp said:

Paul had the wrong goals and keep wanting to go to the Israelites. That program was put on hold. So God imprisoned Paul so to speak and his word was finally complete out of a prison.  

I have a different take on that; Yes, he always had great concern for Israel but he also knew he was an apostle to the Gentiles (Galatians 2:8); As a case in point, perhaps a sort of convergence of goals may be seen in Paul’s mission to Jerusalem. I think Paul was committed to completing this critical relief mission - delivering donations from the Gentile churches to the poor in the Jerusalem church. It would mean a lot to strengthening unity in the church as a whole – the Gentile churches helping out the Jerusalem church.

I could be wrong but I really don’t think he had the “wrong goals” since in this particular case he said his mission to Jerusalem was part of the ministry he received from the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:24), and he was purposed in the spirit to go there (Acts 19:21) and even bound in the spirit on his way (Acts 20:22). Perhaps another way to look at the warnings he received before going there was that it was God’s way of giving him a heads-up so he wouldn’t get blindsided.

Contrary to how “old Doc” taught it in PFAL, I believe the account of Paul going to Jerusalem shows his courage and commitment to see his God-given mission through no matter what the cost was to him personally – that must have been very inspirational and motivating to other Christians. That’s why I think he earned the right to pen such bold and challenging epistles – having the gravitas…the battlefield experience behind his voice…not like some armchair warrior…speaking of which - like I said  I think “old Doc” got that…and a whole lot of other things wrong too.

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1 hour ago, T-Bone said:

I have a different take on that; Yes, he always had great concern for Israel but he also knew he was an apostle to the Gentiles (Galatians 2:8); As a case in point, perhaps a sort of convergence of goals may be seen in Paul’s mission to Jerusalem. I think Paul was committed to completing this critical relief mission - delivering donations from the Gentile churches to the poor in the Jerusalem church. It would mean a lot to strengthening unity in the church as a whole – the Gentile churches helping out the Jerusalem church.

 

 

I could be wrong but I really don’t think he had the “wrong goals” since in this particular case he said his mission to Jerusalem was part of the ministry he received from the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:24), and he was purposed in the spirit to go there (Acts 19:21) and even bound in the spirit on his way (Acts 20:22). Perhaps another way to look at the warnings he received before going there was that it was God’s way of giving him a heads-up so he wouldn’t get blindsided.

 

 

Contrary to how “old Doc” taught it in PFAL, I believe the account of Paul going to Jerusalem shows his courage and commitment to see his God-given mission through no matter what the cost was to him personally – that must have been very inspirational and motivating to other Christians. That’s why I think he earned the right to pen such bold and challenging epistles – having the gravitas…the battlefield experience behind his voice…not like some armchair warrior…speaking of which - like I said  I think “old Doc” got that…and a whole lot of other things wrong too.

 

 

Well said. But the fact that Paul finished what God wanted him to say was from prison. It was from there God's Word to us was completed. 

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1 hour ago, teachmevp said:

Well said. But the fact that Paul finished what God wanted him to say was from prison. It was from there God's Word to us was completed. 

I beg to differ – sorry to rain on your “sensational parade” – if you’re referring to when the Bible was completed and NOT to the esoteric philosophical nonsense of vp’s “the word” - you might want to look into the probable dates of when the New Testament documents were written…there’s Hebrews, James, books of Peter, epistles of John, Jude, and Revelation that according to most scholars were written after Paul’s letters.

dating when the books of the Bible were written

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21 hours ago, T-Bone said:

I beg to differ – sorry to rain on your “sensational parade” – if you’re referring to when the Bible was completed and NOT to the esoteric philosophical nonsense of vp’s “the word” - you might want to look into the probable dates of when the New Testament documents were written…there’s Hebrews, James, books of Peter, epistles of John, Jude, and Revelation that according to most scholars were written after Paul’s letters.

 

dating when the books of the Bible were written

 

Those writing are not for you. This is the age of grace buddy. Those are for the Israelites after the body of the Savior is lifted off the earth. Will they not need instruction about what's going on before they face Jacob's trouble, the seven years of tribulation they must go through?

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The whole "to you/for you" thing is contrived. The cannon does not reflect the chronology of when the various books were written.

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1 hour ago, waysider said:

 

The whole "to you/for you" thing is contrived. The cannon does not reflect the chronology of when the various books were written.

 

Right waysider, "to you/for you" throws the words of Jesus Christ out the window. I'm not willing to do that anymore. I'm a Christian not a Paulian or a Peterian! 

Love what Paul and Peter and others wrote, but nobody said anything more important to me than what Jesus said. 

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8 hours ago, waysider said:

The whole "to you/for you" thing is contrived. The cannon does not reflect the chronology of when the various books were written.

I agree Waysider - vp’s (and other dispensationalists) use of addressed to you vs for your learning – seems to be something deliberately fabricated rather than a natural sense of what’s written – and as such it comes across as something artificial or unrealistic (and conveniently favoring vp’s licentious agenda – more on that later). Dispensationalism ignores context and even the big picture – the whole enchilada – the entire Bible – uhm…..Genesis to Revelation.

I think it’s futile to argue with a dispensationalist since their means of interpretation is flawed; a dispensationalist’s interpretation usually depends on isolated passages that only apply at certain times and if that’s not slippery enough for ya,  they will have no qualms ruling out any verse or verses that disagree with their position simply on the grounds that it does not apply.  

Waysider also mentioned the canon of the Bible – maybe that’s another issue with dispensationalism; Canon is from the Greek word kanon and means a rule or measuring stick; A canonical book is one that measures up to the standard of Holy Scripture – therefore the canon of Scripture refers to the books that are considered to be the authoritative Word of God. It seems to me that the malleable measuring stick of dispensationalists tends to selectively invalidate the authority of the Word of God when and where it suits them.

the canon of Scripture

 

6 hours ago, JayDee said:

Right waysider, "to you/for you" throws the words of Jesus Christ out the window. I'm not willing to do that anymore. I'm a Christian not a Paulian or a Peterian! 

Love what Paul and Peter and others wrote, but nobody said anything more important to me than what Jesus said. 

JayDee, love your post – it made me think of something else - I think most Christians have a favorite book or books in the Bible; I have several favorites – one of which is the gospel of John. Really, when it comes to anything Jesus said in any of the gospels I tend to consider that the standard for simple goof-proof Christianity; I mean verses like Luke 6:46 why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not do what I say? – how much simpler can it get?!?! Oddly enough, vp used a gospel verse (John 10:10) as the hook for his Power For Abundant Living class –a class with a materialistic appeal - -and the class promoted a cheap grace that does not require repentance…and that brings me back to something I mentioned above.  

vp’s licentious agenda:  Consider carefully the words of Jesus Christ:

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, “The experts in the law and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat. Therefore pay attention to what they tell you and do it. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they teach. They tie up heavy loads, hard to carry, and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing even to lift a finger to move them. Matthew 23: 1-4 New English Translation.

Teachmevp, I do not know what degree of involvement you have had with The Way International if any at all (forgive me if you shared this elsewhere and I haven’t read it)  and how much stock you put in the teachings of victor paul wierwille. But for the sake of brevity I’ll get to the point. From what I gather of the numerous threads you’ve started – it seems to me you are not aware of vp’s utter hypocrisy that knew no bounds! The public persona of vp had a nice Christian veneer to it – but like Jekyll and Hyde - his dark side…known to staff and way corps may be along the lines of what Jesus was talking about in Matthew 23.

And let’s not oversimplify the issues with vp and his teachings – it’s not that he taught one thing and did something else – it goes much deeper than that…insidiously deeper than all that…the philosophy behind his teachings is the problem…it was there at the beginning in PFAL…laying the groundwork for a manipulative and abusive ministry:

The Subtle Thread which runs throughout PFAL

If you like to think of him as the man chosen by God to teach us “the word”, founder of a biblical research, teaching and fellowship ministry, concerned with the accuracy and integrity of “the word” – then you might want to check out the book Undertow, the author, Charlene, was in the way corps (vp’s leadership training program) and in vp’s research department – you will get an eye-opening excursion through the inner workings of his ministry and the pressure he exerted on all NOT to contradict anything he taught.

Undertow

If you don’t think I was serious about how vp twisted dispensationalism into a perverted cheap grace then you may want to check out Losing the Way, the author, Kristen, was sexually molested by vp - and she relates the scripture twisting he’d do to try to make it all seem ok – verses like unto the pure all things are pure – ugh! the guy was a pig…sick, evil, unconscionable pig!  Kristen was also in the way corps – vp’s leadership training program.

Losing the Way

If you were in the way and never heard of any of this stuff – it’s probably because of the lockbox – it’s mentioned in the two books above and in another book The Cult That Snapped…. The lockbox was a nifty little psychological device vp invented to keep his sexual predations secret. The author, Karl, was also in the way corps – vp’s leadership training program.

The Cult That Snapped

If you feel any of the above info is upsetting, unbelievable or just plain shocking news it may be that you spend some much time in the Doctrinal forum and ignore the About the Way forum. If you don’t care to read any of the books I’ve listed then at least check out the About the Way forum – it’s free! You might get a clearer picture of what vp was all about from the stories of folks that went through his training program and worked alongside him. I also was in the way corps program and have shared about vp’s sedative to the conscience

TWI's Sedative to the Conscience

sorry for this long post….sometimes I just have to rant when I hear preaching based on vp’s extra-strength toxicity. Please don’t take it personal.

 

Edited by T-Bone
trying to beat the clock on the server
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8 hours ago, T-Bone said:
16 hours ago, waysider said:

The whole "to you/for you" thing is contrived. The cannon does not reflect the chronology of when the various books were written.

I agree Waysider - vp’s (and other dispensationalists) use of addressed to you vs for your learning – seems to be something deliberately fabricated rather than a natural sense of what’s written – and as such it comes across as something artificial or unrealistic (and conveniently favoring vp’s licentious agenda – more on that later). Dispensationalism ignores context and even the big picture – the whole enchilada – the entire Bible – uhm…..Genesis to Revelation.

Y'all's opinion, of course.  This simply isn't a thread I care to discuss it in, 'cause simply put, I concur that vpw (and certain others) didn't teach it right.  But neither do you!  The fact that the bible does speak of various oikonomia's is NOT something which is "contrived," and clearly refutes any ostentatious efforts to sway some into thinking otherwise.  However, as already noted, this isn't a proper thread to say more on the matter.

(Though I probably would on some other, such as this:  http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/24185-oikonomia/#comment-571969 )

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Rather than continue on a discourse about dispensations, let it at least be noted that the Gospels were written AFTER the Epistles.

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19 hours ago, waysider said:

The whole "to you/for you" thing is contrived. The cannon does not reflect the chronology of when the various books were written.

But they do indeed. Read what is for you and don't eat off another's table that isn't for you. Paul was striving to know the Savior and know him intimately not as the lowly Nazarene...not as Israel’s Messiah...not as the man from Galilee...not as simply another great teacher...not as simply a prophet, but to know him in the power of his resurrection and in the fellowship of his suffering. Paul wanted the Savior’s life to be manifest in his own life. Take in God’s Word that you might be transformed by that Word. You must take part in the ingestion and absorption of his word rightly divided. Transformation God’s responsibility. The ingestion and absorption of divine viewpoint the believer’s responsibility. Religion is fill with lots of people who would rather beg God to fix their suffering circumstances rather than to thank God for his enabling grace that is sufficient for every suffering saint, that energizing power. Paul’s great desire was to know the Savior in his resurrection power because that same power that raised Jesus from among the dead was operating or energizing in Paul and it’s energizing in you. Ephesians 1:17-20

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Waysider:

"The canon does not reflect the chronology of when the various books were written."

teachmevp:

"But they do indeed."

 

 

uhhmmm.......No, the Gospels were written quite some time after the life of Jesus and after the writing of the Epistles.

Edited by waysider
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you guys are right....sorry about the detour down dispensational lane...my bad

 

peace to everyone...and best wishes for the holidays and the new year!

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