Hey Plot, good to see you, if under difficult circumstances.
I know what happens when we die. We learn what happens next the only way we really learn anything. We do it. Some things I don't want to learn and the idea of this poor world trying to carry on without me is disturbing to say the least. Who will be me? Did I leave enough of what I was here to spread around and do some good? Or will it be "good riddance"?
Josie sounds like she's leaving the best part of her to be enjoyed and carried on by those who will most appreciate it and spread it around even further.
Well, Plot, I should probably know the answer to that. In an earlier poem, she wrote:
I never lost as much but twice,
And that was in the sod.
Twice have I stood a beggar
Before the door of God!
Angels -- twice descending
Reimbursed my store --
Burglar! Banker -- Father!
I am poor once more!
From what I remember (if I remember), the two people referred to in this poem are her father, and her first love interest, who was an employee of her father's, but died when she was still a teenager, not too long after she met him. I think. Don't quote me on that. But if I'm right, that second poem probably refers to the same two losses. Maybe. But then there was that other guy -- the minister who moved away -- so I don't know. I'll look it up. I don't remember a thing about her mother. Do you?
Here's one that satori posted awhile back. It may be more appropos to Sally's state right now, even though it doesn't address her question.
At the End
He was so old his bones seemed to swim in his skin.
Josie's lived a very long life and I can't imagine the bond that must exist between her and Sally, as my own parents both died when I was in my 20s, so I didn't have very long with either of them.
I do know this, though. They are both very fortunate to have you as their friend.
I clearly remember when I had all the answers on this subject. Now I know that I know that I know a little bit about a lot - and what I don't know is in a catch basket being strained of all attendant anxieties, frustrations, and faulty formulas.
Living and letting go of living really is a travel study of its own. Savouring all that is good and kindly called to remembrance is a gift of sorts, a skill even, and often a blessing.
We really are all in God's hands, no matter what we know or don't. I suppose faith is trust in the best order, giving it over to Him because it is His show.
I am glad that your ladies have each other now,
and that you all are in tune with the magnitude of love and care that binds you.
There really is the greatest comfort offered in Thessalonians. You know the place. :)-->
I somehow doubt that I'll get anywhere near that mark.
At any rate, I don't envy you your job, Plots.
You ever read any "Death Haiku"? There was a tradition of sorts in Japan, indulged in primarily by the Samurai class, of composing an Haiku to be read at their funeral, I guess.
Plots, the verdict is still out on a few things I'm relearning. That is one. I know for myself when my baby sister named "Josie" passed away it brought my family great comfort to think she had gone on to see her Lord. I wouldn't have spoken a word of twi's "the dead are not alive" than I would have shoved a knife in their chest.
My son (9) and I stopped in to see Josie. A stroke a few days ago has ended her eating and talking. Her stuffed cats gave her kisses (she's a cat nut - one of them is named after me). She smiled. We prayed. Plots Jr.and I said good-bye and left.
I think she'll go into a coma any hour now - so each visit is an evening cherry blossom. Maybe the next time I see her I'll slip my book of short stories into my Mighty Mac one last time.
Re:"I know for myself when my baby sister named "Josie" passed away it brought my family great comfort to think she had gone on to see her Lord."
It's at times like these that people are at their most vulnerable. They'll grasp at anything to soothe the truely awful heart crushing pain. Hence.. we have religions. Which at their core addresses the very question Plots asked here more than any other. What happens at death?
I guess its comforting to imagine loved ones in paradise. Even better.. they are in paradise awaiting us when WE die. And not only that.. after we all get there.. it lasts for ever and ever. And there's no sorrow there, either. No hunger. No wars. And of course.. no more of what is the biggest heartbreak of all.. death.
So is it better to tell people what they want to hear?? Or what is more likely true?? I'd say it depends on the person as people are odd in that respect. Some doctors are loathe to tell their patients they have terminal cancer thinking they will give up their will to fight, for instance. So they sugar coat it. Those same doctors may give it straight to other patients figuring it will make them fight.
As far as I'm concerned, I'd always want to know the real score so I could deal with it. But that's me.
So is it better to tell people what they want to hear?? Or what is more likely true??
What is more likely true.
That is why I tell people that the grace they have experienced in this life is most likely continued and unimaginably superceded in the next. Why would it end?
Re:"I know for myself when my baby sister named "Josie" passed away it brought my family great comfort to think she had gone on to see her Lord."
It's at times like these that people are at their most vulnerable. They'll grasp at anything to soothe the truely awful heart crushing pain. Hence.. we have religions. Which at their core addresses the very question Plots asked here more than any other. What happens at death?
My family well knew I didn't believe in life after death so they knew my silence of words against them and my real tears of pain with them was something. My mother said afterwards that she had prayed God would especially touch my heart because I had no vision of my sister without pain like she had. That told me what I already knew. She had to hold onto my sister being free of physical conditions in order to deal with her being gone. Had she remembered the frail thing in her arms she would die she said.
I guess its comforting to imagine loved ones in paradise. Even better.. they are in paradise awaiting us when _WE_ die. And not only that.. after we all get there.. it lasts for ever and ever. And there's no sorrow there, either. No hunger. No wars. And of course.. no more of what is the biggest heartbreak of all.. death.
It gave my mom a reason to accept the fact she was gone, never to see her boys grow up, never to know all the things her life could have afforded her. Somehow it helped her not be angry also I think.
So is it better to tell people what they want to hear?? Or what is more likely true?? I'd say it depends on the person as people are odd in that respect. Some doctors are loathe to tell their patients they have terminal cancer thinking they will give up their will to fight, for instance. So they sugar coat it. Those same doctors may give it straight to other patients figuring it will _make_ them fight.
They told my sister straight up she had little to no chance at all. It was the only way you could have done so with her, she would have known anyway.
As far as I'm concerned, I'd always want to know the real score so I could deal with it. But that's me.
I would always want to know the real score on my health and prognoses.
And Sudo, as far as what happens afterwards, well I'm rebuilding.
Sorry if the other stuff I've sent has not been straighforward enough...
For me, the evidence for heaven* is the presence, now,
of such kindness in life (from the Beyond).
I see graciousness (undeserved divine favor) in so much...
-that we are here at all
-this mind that can operate so incredibly subtly
-sunsets etc.
-altruism
-in fact, I see it everywhere I take the moment to consider.
(I do not think recognizing grace is ignoring evil..)
God in everything, giving and loving.
For this to cease at any point seems unlikely to me.
This grace is so huge
so pervasive
so seemingly impelled by some force (love?)
that it's only logical to me that it wash over and past the point of biological death
like an ocean wave
Yes, a tsunami of life and grace.
Is this Pollyanna-ish?
I don't think so.
With eyes wide open to the horrors of human and worldy reality,
I still see grace far out distancing evil.
How can it not, for there is grace in every flutter of a bird (or bat) wing,
every beam of sunlight, every molecule of neurotransmitter's journey across the synapses of our brain.
Such are my thoughts this early Sunday morning.
Peace and love,
Plots
*note that we haven't really spoken yet of a definition of heaven:
-personality survival? Perhpas, but we should beware of imposing our desires on this (present and ) future. We are most spiritual in an enjoying mode - not creating!
Also Jesus said "The kingdom of heaven is within you." So, something about heaven is already begun.
My mother never said she saw heaven as a pearly gated community. She had no idea what that would have looked like, but she saw heaven as the place you go upon death. A place the spirit went and somehow retained its identity so when another of God's saints came into the spiritual realm it would recognize that unique entity as it had in it's fleshly dwelling. So for her when Josie died she joined a group she would recognize others in.
Okay, so that is the best I can relay of what she thought of heaven.
As for me, I don't quite know how to put it yet so will hold off for now.
And thanks Plots for letting me just kind of bulldoze on in here. Bless your heart.
Sally was sitting on the edge of the bed, playing her guitar and singing a Bob Dylan song as we walked in. Wife borrowed the guitar and sang a different Bob Dylan song. Is this a custom I don't know?
No knowing how to play guitar, Dau. and I put bread on some boxwood shrubs outside her window to attract songbirds.
Hey, I also did a wedding today for an 18 yr. old former youth group member. There were 9 of us. She wore a mini-skirt (poor choice) - his shirt wasn't tucked in.
I always tell my son, "Plotiny, tuck in your shirt if you're going to get married."
I always tell my son, "Plotiny, tuck in your shirt if you're going to get married."
Am I right?
Of course you're right. You're always right. Wish my mom had told me that. But then I didn't believe the stuff she told me anyway. But I did wear clean underware!
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Shellon
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laleo
Hey, Plot. I'm sorry for what you and Sally and, especially, Josie, are facing right now, but I'm glad to see you around GreaseSpot.
I have no idea what happens to people when they die. I would have expected you to invoke Emily Dickinson for the answer.
My life closed twice before its close --
It yet remains to see
If Immortality unveil
A third event to me
So huge, so hopeless to conceive
As these that twice befell,
Parting is all we know of heaven,
And all we need of hell.
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socks
Hey Plot, good to see you, if under difficult circumstances.
I know what happens when we die. We learn what happens next the only way we really learn anything. We do it. Some things I don't want to learn and the idea of this poor world trying to carry on without me is disturbing to say the least. Who will be me? Did I leave enough of what I was here to spread around and do some good? Or will it be "good riddance"?
Josie sounds like she's leaving the best part of her to be enjoyed and carried on by those who will most appreciate it and spread it around even further.
Love, in transition brother.
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Plotinus
Laleo and Socks,
Thanks for two great replies!
Laleo, I passed the E.D. on to Sally, while also admitting that I don't full understand it yet. What are her two closures? Her parents?
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laleo
Well, Plot, I should probably know the answer to that. In an earlier poem, she wrote:
I never lost as much but twice,
And that was in the sod.
Twice have I stood a beggar
Before the door of God!
Angels -- twice descending
Reimbursed my store --
Burglar! Banker -- Father!
I am poor once more!
From what I remember (if I remember), the two people referred to in this poem are her father, and her first love interest, who was an employee of her father's, but died when she was still a teenager, not too long after she met him. I think. Don't quote me on that. But if I'm right, that second poem probably refers to the same two losses. Maybe. But then there was that other guy -- the minister who moved away -- so I don't know. I'll look it up. I don't remember a thing about her mother. Do you?
Here's one that satori posted awhile back. It may be more appropos to Sally's state right now, even though it doesn't address her question.
At the End
He was so old his bones seemed to swim in his skin.
And when I took his hand to feel his pulse
I felt myself drawn in. It was as faint
as the steps of a child
padding across the floor in slippers,
and yet he was smiling.
I could almost hear a river
running beneath his breath.
The water clear and cold and deep.
He was ready and willing to wade on in.
Ed Meek
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jardinero
Not an easy question to answer, Plots.
Josie's lived a very long life and I can't imagine the bond that must exist between her and Sally, as my own parents both died when I was in my 20s, so I didn't have very long with either of them.
I do know this, though. They are both very fortunate to have you as their friend.
You've been missed, Plots. Nice to see you again.
J.
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MATILDA
(((Plotinus)))
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MATILDA
I clearly remember when I had all the answers on this subject. Now I know that I know that I know a little bit about a lot - and what I don't know is in a catch basket being strained of all attendant anxieties, frustrations, and faulty formulas.
Living and letting go of living really is a travel study of its own. Savouring all that is good and kindly called to remembrance is a gift of sorts, a skill even, and often a blessing.
We really are all in God's hands, no matter what we know or don't. I suppose faith is trust in the best order, giving it over to Him because it is His show.
I am glad that your ladies have each other now,
and that you all are in tune with the magnitude of love and care that binds you.
There really is the greatest comfort offered in Thessalonians. You know the place.
:)-->
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George Aar
Well, I'm kinda envious of Josie.
A life well-lived for ninety years!
I somehow doubt that I'll get anywhere near that mark.
At any rate, I don't envy you your job, Plots.
You ever read any "Death Haiku"? There was a tradition of sorts in Japan, indulged in primarily by the Samurai class, of composing an Haiku to be read at their funeral, I guess.
Of such like:
Kaisho (the author)
Futokoro e
Suzuki shimasu ya
Yuzakura
"Evening Cherry Blossoms
I slip the inkstone back into my kimono
This one last time."
Minteisengan
Ka no aru o
Omoide ni dange
Koboreume
"Fall, plum petals
Fall... and leave behind the memory
Of their scent."
Or, for the more pragmatic:
Toko
Ji sei to wa
Sunawachi mayoi
Tada shinan
"Death poems
are mere delusion
Death is death."
Probably not the most comforting of the three.
Maybe you'd want to leave that one out...
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satori001
Where do they go? They go to prepare the way for us, as it was prepared for them.
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ChattyKathy
Plots, the verdict is still out on a few things I'm relearning. That is one. I know for myself when my baby sister named "Josie" passed away it brought my family great comfort to think she had gone on to see her Lord. I wouldn't have spoken a word of twi's "the dead are not alive" than I would have shoved a knife in their chest.
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Plotinus
My son (9) and I stopped in to see Josie. A stroke a few days ago has ended her eating and talking. Her stuffed cats gave her kisses (she's a cat nut - one of them is named after me). She smiled. We prayed. Plots Jr.and I said good-bye and left.
I think she'll go into a coma any hour now - so each visit is an evening cherry blossom. Maybe the next time I see her I'll slip my book of short stories into my Mighty Mac one last time.
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jardinero
What a joy some of those last moments must have been for her - - with people who loved her and kisses from her stuffed kitties.
(((((((((((Plots)))))))))))))
May her last moments here be pleasant and peaceful knowing she was so loved.
J.
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Sudo
Kathy,
Re:"I know for myself when my baby sister named "Josie" passed away it brought my family great comfort to think she had gone on to see her Lord."
It's at times like these that people are at their most vulnerable. They'll grasp at anything to soothe the truely awful heart crushing pain. Hence.. we have religions. Which at their core addresses the very question Plots asked here more than any other. What happens at death?
I guess its comforting to imagine loved ones in paradise. Even better.. they are in paradise awaiting us when WE die. And not only that.. after we all get there.. it lasts for ever and ever. And there's no sorrow there, either. No hunger. No wars. And of course.. no more of what is the biggest heartbreak of all.. death.
So is it better to tell people what they want to hear?? Or what is more likely true?? I'd say it depends on the person as people are odd in that respect. Some doctors are loathe to tell their patients they have terminal cancer thinking they will give up their will to fight, for instance. So they sugar coat it. Those same doctors may give it straight to other patients figuring it will make them fight.
As far as I'm concerned, I'd always want to know the real score so I could deal with it. But that's me.
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Plotinus
What is more likely true.
That is why I tell people that the grace they have experienced in this life is most likely continued and unimaginably superceded in the next. Why would it end?
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ChattyKathy
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Plotinus
Dear Sally,
Sorry if the other stuff I've sent has not been straighforward enough...
For me, the evidence for heaven* is the presence, now,
of such kindness in life (from the Beyond).
I see graciousness (undeserved divine favor) in so much...
-that we are here at all
-this mind that can operate so incredibly subtly
-sunsets etc.
-altruism
-in fact, I see it everywhere I take the moment to consider.
(I do not think recognizing grace is ignoring evil..)
God in everything, giving and loving.
For this to cease at any point seems unlikely to me.
This grace is so huge
so pervasive
so seemingly impelled by some force (love?)
that it's only logical to me that it wash over and past the point of biological death
like an ocean wave
Yes, a tsunami of life and grace.
Is this Pollyanna-ish?
I don't think so.
With eyes wide open to the horrors of human and worldy reality,
I still see grace far out distancing evil.
How can it not, for there is grace in every flutter of a bird (or bat) wing,
every beam of sunlight, every molecule of neurotransmitter's journey across the synapses of our brain.
Such are my thoughts this early Sunday morning.
Peace and love,
Plots
*note that we haven't really spoken yet of a definition of heaven:
-personality survival? Perhpas, but we should beware of imposing our desires on this (present and ) future. We are most spiritual in an enjoying mode - not creating!
Also Jesus said "The kingdom of heaven is within you." So, something about heaven is already begun.
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ChattyKathy
No time now, but I've always thought it was heaven on earth. Well there is more, but no time now.
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ChattyKathy
My mother never said she saw heaven as a pearly gated community. She had no idea what that would have looked like, but she saw heaven as the place you go upon death. A place the spirit went and somehow retained its identity so when another of God's saints came into the spiritual realm it would recognize that unique entity as it had in it's fleshly dwelling. So for her when Josie died she joined a group she would recognize others in.
Okay, so that is the best I can relay of what she thought of heaven.
As for me, I don't quite know how to put it yet so will hold off for now.
And thanks Plots for letting me just kind of bulldoze on in here. Bless your heart.
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Linda Z
Nice to see you Plots.
God bless you for your tender care of Josie and Sally. I think your second letter is particularly comforting.
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Plotinus
Wife and dau. and I saw Josie this morning...
She knew who we were and sort of smiled.
Sally was sitting on the edge of the bed, playing her guitar and singing a Bob Dylan song as we walked in. Wife borrowed the guitar and sang a different Bob Dylan song. Is this a custom I don't know?
No knowing how to play guitar, Dau. and I put bread on some boxwood shrubs outside her window to attract songbirds.
Hey, I also did a wedding today for an 18 yr. old former youth group member. There were 9 of us. She wore a mini-skirt (poor choice) - his shirt wasn't tucked in.
I always tell my son, "Plotiny, tuck in your shirt if you're going to get married."
Am I right?
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GarthP2000
Ahh Plots, you know that after they are married, men *never* tuck their shirt in, .... and the women know that.
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Steve!
Oh, so now you're gonna have your son go and put on airs, hmmm?
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My3Cents
Of course you're right. You're always right. Wish my mom had told me that. But then I didn't believe the stuff she told me anyway. But I did wear clean underware!
Good to see you back Plots.
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