Your mixed feeling are about how these "mogs" and "wc" tolerated what the business world is now in-excusable.
If the ethics of a person has such flaws as has been pointed out, leaves little doubt in my mind to what spirt, these "spirtual mogs" were "tapped into".
Oldies....that is rediculous...WE HAD been giving lcm the *benefit of doubt* every since he took OFFICE!!!!!
That is another distortion ...and YOU know it....
We never STOPPED treating him with honor, treating him with the utmost respect... daily prayed for him and his family........ never bad mouthed him....never even spoke to the naysayers that were leaving twi in droves at the time....we supported every hair brained edict that proceeded from his office.......the ONLY thing that we refused to do was swear an oath of loyalty to him...lcm...the MAN!!!
The MAN who SAID...at the time he demanded the loyalty oath...*and don`t give me any of this loyalty to GOD crap*...HE said it...not me oldies....
We attempted to serve in any way possible...only to be frozen out....we didn`t play ball by old craigs rules...n now we were gonna pay.
What he required of us was neither reasonable ...or Godly....it was not his to demand.
I repeat...our loyalty was to GOD ....not any man....and those are the people that were thrown out.
have you ever wondered WHY the people who`s primary loyalty was to God needed to be removed from the presence of twi? Why couldn`t Craig have us there?????
OM--history has shown, lcm was NOT interested in loyalty to God--if in doubt, consider "Mark and Avoid"--even vp never was that brazen, that crude, that callous. Stick to what you know...you admit you DID NOT know the whole story in 88/89/90; fine, others knew far more and that is why they rejected lcm's carnal plea for "unity"....
Oldies....why did craig need those who`s loyalty was to God first out of the ministry?
Could it be...(as I believe that we have seen since), that he needed anybody with back bone or the courage and integrity to confront the darkness.... out of his way so that the evil could run rampant and unchecked??
According to Craig, the folks whose primary loyalty was to God, was not a problem at all. The key ingredient was:
quote:God first, but you must decide with whom you want to work and fellowship. To stand with God means to do His Word and will. That includes walking with mutual love and respect and like-mindedness and one accord. Each of us must decide with whom we want to do that.
quote:It is not just a case of walking with God only and ignoring everyone else. In the Body of Christ, you have great sections of scripture like Romans 13 that show how the Church is to function with the ministries. Obviously again, this does not mean to elevate any leader above God; but within the commitment to God first, there are other commitments that are expected and need to be made if we are going to move the Word to the full extent that God expects us to.
quote:fine, others knew far more and that is why they rejected lcm's carnal plea for "unity"....
Alfakat,
Partial baloney. That may be true of some, but the folks I knew, baloney. They followed VF, the area coords and the twig coords, who followed VF. They had no demonstrable, justifiable, logical reason. VF was ....ed with LCM, THAT'S why. They followed the NY crowd.
Had VF stayed and stood with LCM, you think the whole of NY would have left? No way in heaven and hell.
yeah, rascal, did cragghead forget about the thing about any 2 people get closer to each other by getting closer to GOD??!!?? same principle--if we both/all declare our allegiance to GOD--what is the problem??? if the BOT had been more forthcoming, maybe there would not have been all the "communication" problems that stemmed from almost 3 years of "craig, the mannequin president"...
OM, fine, NO-ONE is disputing what you saw in NY...but, dude, that was NOTHIN'!!! the ministry went down the crapper BECAUSE that is the direction the trustees took it--PLAIN AND SIMPLE...
by the by, OM----why is it you seem to treat lcm's letter as excathedra scripture???? Has it even entered your head that he might have been prevaricating??? bsing? hedging the facts?? well???
quote:Oldies...I tried to stay in twi....but as a woman...my loyalty meant nothing....the oath had to come from the head of the house hold.
Rascal, my tc's were a married couple. The woman was opposed to staying with TWI, the man was in favor. The man, according to him, to keep his marriage together, relented and did what the woman wanted.
The punchline: women have more power in TWI than they realize, or would care to admit.
quote:Oldies...I tried to stay in twi....but as a woman...my loyalty meant nothing....the oath had to come from the head of the house hold.
Rascal, my tc's were a married couple. The woman was opposed to staying with TWI, the man was in favor. The man, according to him, to keep his marriage together, relented and did what the woman wanted.
The punchline: women have more power in TWI than they realize, or would care to admit.
uhh, NO--THAT woman had more power. unwarranted conclusion about women in general. too small a sample to extrapolate, om. called stereotyping.
Ya know seems to me....that IF craiggers had been right on with his demand....IF it had been a Godly request...
With the help of the tens of thousands of peaple who DID swear allegiance to him...
With THEIR loyalty...THEIR allegiance...THEIR prayers...THEIR devotion to moving the word and supporting the ministry....financially physically and spiritually.....thats not to MENTION the presence and willingness of God almighty for whom this was supposed to benefit....
Logically He SHOULD have been able to pull the thing out of the toilet...
Oldies...with all of that high powered help...why do you suppose that he couldn`t he save the way ministry?
quote:Nice distraction though from the question of why he needed us out of the way ministry...or why willingness to serve God and minstry were not enough...
Rascal, ha ha...it was YOU who brought up the distraction of being a woman was being a victim.
quote:have you ever wondered WHY the people who`s primary loyalty was to God needed to be removed from the presence of twi? Why couldn`t Craig have us there?????
Anyone can say their primary loyalty is to God, but if you think the president of the group is off the wall and worshipping other gods, you probably shouldn't hang around.
Think of it as a priest who ministers in a large parish, who thinks the Pope is off the wall. The Priest says "I serve and stand with God, and to hell with the Pope".
Clang clang, here comes the Popemobile to escort him out...
I never said that he was worshipping other Gods...
I said that I wanted to serve God...I wanted to support the way mninistry
I wanted to run fellowships...run classes...take classes....
I said THAT wasn`t good enough...
I never said I was a victim you creep....I SAID that it did not matter if I wanted to go to fellowship or serve in twi....IT was not ALLOWED because my husband wouldn`t swear a loyalty oath to lcm.....
I was treated BADLY by the believers because my husband would not obey...
Ignored and ostracised by people who had known and I thought loved me for almost 15 years...
Any respect I was once treated with as a multiple wow vet...ac grad...tc corpes spouse was gone nada...I was not spoken to after husband refused...
I think you missed the point oldies...so I will spell it out...
Lcm NEEDED the folks who`s loyalty was to God...also anybody who wouldn`t back down when confronting his sin...as well as anybody that didn`t immediatly obey his every whim to leave ....because he wanted his evil to be allowed to run unchecked....
What he demanded from was, I believe, tantamount t idolotry.....
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My mistake...
Your mixed feeling are about how these "mogs" and "wc" tolerated what the business world is now in-excusable.
If the ethics of a person has such flaws as has been pointed out, leaves little doubt in my mind to what spirt, these "spirtual mogs" were "tapped into".
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rascal
Oldies....that is rediculous...WE HAD been giving lcm the *benefit of doubt* every since he took OFFICE!!!!!
That is another distortion ...and YOU know it....
We never STOPPED treating him with honor, treating him with the utmost respect... daily prayed for him and his family........ never bad mouthed him....never even spoke to the naysayers that were leaving twi in droves at the time....we supported every hair brained edict that proceeded from his office.......the ONLY thing that we refused to do was swear an oath of loyalty to him...lcm...the MAN!!!
The MAN who SAID...at the time he demanded the loyalty oath...*and don`t give me any of this loyalty to GOD crap*...HE said it...not me oldies....
We attempted to serve in any way possible...only to be frozen out....we didn`t play ball by old craigs rules...n now we were gonna pay.
What he required of us was neither reasonable ...or Godly....it was not his to demand.
I repeat...our loyalty was to GOD ....not any man....and those are the people that were thrown out.
have you ever wondered WHY the people who`s primary loyalty was to God needed to be removed from the presence of twi? Why couldn`t Craig have us there?????
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alfakat
OM--history has shown, lcm was NOT interested in loyalty to God--if in doubt, consider "Mark and Avoid"--even vp never was that brazen, that crude, that callous. Stick to what you know...you admit you DID NOT know the whole story in 88/89/90; fine, others knew far more and that is why they rejected lcm's carnal plea for "unity"....
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rascal
Oldies...I tried to stay in twi....but as a woman...my loyalty meant nothing....the oath had to come from the head of the house hold.
I still attempted to attend fellowship....
I repeat ...asking me to *bend* just a little bit ....is NOT what was asked...
Unquestioning unbending loyalty to craig WAS what was being not asked but REQUIRED~~~~~ a far cry from asking me to be a little bit flexible.
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rascal
Oldies....why did craig need those who`s loyalty was to God first out of the ministry?
Could it be...(as I believe that we have seen since), that he needed anybody with back bone or the courage and integrity to confront the darkness.... out of his way so that the evil could run rampant and unchecked??
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oldiesman
According to Craig, the folks whose primary loyalty was to God, was not a problem at all. The key ingredient was:
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oldiesman
Alfakat,
Partial baloney. That may be true of some, but the folks I knew, baloney. They followed VF, the area coords and the twig coords, who followed VF. They had no demonstrable, justifiable, logical reason. VF was ....ed with LCM, THAT'S why. They followed the NY crowd.
Had VF stayed and stood with LCM, you think the whole of NY would have left? No way in heaven and hell.
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rascal
THAT was part of the letter...that was the sugar coating on the poisonous pill....EVERY bit of that sounds emminantly reasonable....
but but BUT...that was not what was being asked....we were all ready doing ALL of those things...no problemmo....
THAT was not good enough....he wanted a LETTER swearing LOYALTY to HIM...the man...
Something he had no business demanding .....
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alfakat
yeah, rascal, did cragghead forget about the thing about any 2 people get closer to each other by getting closer to GOD??!!?? same principle--if we both/all declare our allegiance to GOD--what is the problem??? if the BOT had been more forthcoming, maybe there would not have been all the "communication" problems that stemmed from almost 3 years of "craig, the mannequin president"...
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alfakat
OM, fine, NO-ONE is disputing what you saw in NY...but, dude, that was NOTHIN'!!! the ministry went down the crapper BECAUSE that is the direction the trustees took it--PLAIN AND SIMPLE...
by the by, OM----why is it you seem to treat lcm's letter as excathedra scripture???? Has it even entered your head that he might have been prevaricating??? bsing? hedging the facts?? well???
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rascal
WHY did lcm demand that the folks who`s loyalty to God FIRST out of twi?
WHY did lcm demand the leaders who had the guts to confront him about his sin leave twi?
WHY did lcm feel threatened by believers who simply loved God and wanted to serve in the way ministry????
WHY was the only thing that made you acceptable for service and attendance to twi functions a sworn oath of loyalty to Craig????
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oldiesman
Rascal, my tc's were a married couple. The woman was opposed to staying with TWI, the man was in favor. The man, according to him, to keep his marriage together, relented and did what the woman wanted.
The punchline: women have more power in TWI than they realize, or would care to admit.
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rascal
Willingness to serve God...
Willingness to support twi...
Willingness to aquiece to every demand of our time resources and homes for fellowship and classes...
Willingness to devote our entire lives ...
ALL was deemed no longer available or acceptable if we didn`t swear an oath of loyalty to a man ....
S`funny but I don`t get the impression he was REALLY looking for people to stand with him and the ministry to help move God`s word...sorry.
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alfakat
uhh, NO--THAT woman had more power. unwarranted conclusion about women in general. too small a sample to extrapolate, om. called stereotyping.
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Shellon
or.........he knew his wife was a smart women, had valid points and was right on the money about twi.
Power. In a marriage. Hate that.
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rascal
That is a damnable LIE oldies....
just because ONE couple that YOU knew worked that way certainly did not mean the rest of us had any power or authority.
You LIE! Iwas ostrcised as were many other women I knew soley based on our husbands decisions.
We had zero power zero influince once we were married ...ESPECIALLY if as in my case the husband was corpes and the wife was not.
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rascal
Nice distraction though from the question of why he needed us out of the way ministry...or why willingness to serve God and minstry were not enough...
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rascal
Ya know seems to me....that IF craiggers had been right on with his demand....IF it had been a Godly request...
With the help of the tens of thousands of peaple who DID swear allegiance to him...
With THEIR loyalty...THEIR allegiance...THEIR prayers...THEIR devotion to moving the word and supporting the ministry....financially physically and spiritually.....thats not to MENTION the presence and willingness of God almighty for whom this was supposed to benefit....
Logically He SHOULD have been able to pull the thing out of the toilet...
Oldies...with all of that high powered help...why do you suppose that he couldn`t he save the way ministry?
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rascal
Hmmm maybe he NEEDED folks who were willing to put their loyalty to God first...
could it be he needed the folks he treated abominably and drove out????
maybe not...maybe he accomplished EXACTLY what he NEEDED to do in order to have the way ministry be what he wanted...
Fancy that... needing all of us copped out possessoes from left field...
Who`d a thunk that maybe he needed some of that savorless salt that he so thoughtlessly cast out in the street...
Maybe we weren`t as worthless as he percieved...
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oldiesman
Rascal, ha ha...it was YOU who brought up the distraction of being a woman was being a victim.
Anyone can say their primary loyalty is to God, but if you think the president of the group is off the wall and worshipping other gods, you probably shouldn't hang around.
Think of it as a priest who ministers in a large parish, who thinks the Pope is off the wall. The Priest says "I serve and stand with God, and to hell with the Pope".
Clang clang, here comes the Popemobile to escort him out...
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excathedra
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rascal
I never said that he was worshipping other Gods...
I said that I wanted to serve God...I wanted to support the way mninistry
I wanted to run fellowships...run classes...take classes....
I said THAT wasn`t good enough...
I never said I was a victim you creep....I SAID that it did not matter if I wanted to go to fellowship or serve in twi....IT was not ALLOWED because my husband wouldn`t swear a loyalty oath to lcm.....
I was treated BADLY by the believers because my husband would not obey...
Ignored and ostracised by people who had known and I thought loved me for almost 15 years...
Any respect I was once treated with as a multiple wow vet...ac grad...tc corpes spouse was gone nada...I was not spoken to after husband refused...
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rascal
We said our loyalty was to God...we never critisized lcm or the way ministry....YOUR senario does not resemble the situation in any way....
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rascal
I think you missed the point oldies...so I will spell it out...
Lcm NEEDED the folks who`s loyalty was to God...also anybody who wouldn`t back down when confronting his sin...as well as anybody that didn`t immediatly obey his every whim to leave ....because he wanted his evil to be allowed to run unchecked....
What he demanded from was, I believe, tantamount t idolotry.....
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