Yes mj they DID tell me that in order to be a dulos that I had to abort the wanted child....don`t you sit behind you moniter 19 years after the fact and tell ME what THEY said! Where the heck do you get off sitting behind that moniter all complacent THINKING you know what they said to me???? Placing motives and assigning me inapropriate labels???
They DID say that if I loved God I would honor the vows I made to HIM...not to twi not to a groups rules...those, believe me..I could have flaunted.
But when it came down to dissapointing God...seperating myself from his love and protection ...seperation from fellowhip with my beloved bretheren..placing me in danger of spiritual degredation and possession....I simply couldn`t bring myself to dissobey God.
Why are you standing up for these cowards who hid behind God and used the bible as their weapon to ensure complete obedience?
They DID say that God almighty ruler of the heavens and earth demanded THIS of ME IF I were truly a dulos.
Not twi rules demanded not leaders demanded...God demanded...THAT is what is wrong.
Why must you make it seem as if my outrage at what these evil men perpetrated on good hearted christians seem like it is missplaced.
I think that there is something wrong with sweeping it all under the rug and pretending that everything was just hunky dory in way world. If folks don`t realise that we were taught by evil men...it may be years if EVER it dawns on folks to question the false ungodly teachings.
this is where you call the leaders cowards Rascal .
It was what the corp program was all about .
I make no accusation of you yet you seem to have your full of who and what i am and have done for sure.
whatever.
you obviously have either changed your mind on how you feel about the bible teaching you believed back then or you lied to yourself to impress someone 19 years ago .
that is indeed an outrage and Im sorry you had to go through that.
mj412, I can understand recognizing things in our lives that need change, and I don't discount I received that while a part of twi. Apparently you felt being titled as Mark and Avoid was appropriate or earned in some way. I disagree that incredibly fallible men could make such an assumption regarding my life. And that to me is the crux of this issue (not the abortion one). It is allowing men who abused the position of spiritual overseers to dictate mandates "in the name of God" that would affect our lives.
Have you any idea the number of times we were told in moments of hesitation that breaking our commitment would sever (in part) our tie to God? The Word does not back that up. Rather it says NOTHING can separate us from the love of God.
Can we overcome injurious times in our lives? I believe with honesty and hard work most can get to the point it does not have to dictate control. Do I agree we have to remain bitter and victimized? I can only go by myself, my story is one that would allow me the rights to be, but I continue to work towards not having that description. And very simply because they had enough already, I want the rest of my life.
What I believed then and what I believe now really has NO bearing on the destructive actions of twi leaders who demanded destruction of an unborn child simply to appease God....sometimes twi stikes me as barbaric as the aztec and inca communities sacraficing babies and children to keep their Gods happy.....
This was not what the corpes was portrayed to be about mj...sorry.
I fail to see why my experience, veracity, and sanity are being questioned over what twi taught and demanded of its adherents....there are other posters on this thread that have verified that they were taught the same thing.
Being M@A got me out of a cult quite quickly to which I am thankful.
no one would speak to me so I was not dragged into years of who was right or wrong and began a new life with gladness and Joy in knowing God and much love.
I doubt I may have ever left if I had not been M@A. I do not know.
Yet when I went back in after being gone a decade things were very clear on how it is not so much a person involved or one act of abuse or choice made in foolishness or error but a group mentality of oneness and power over others that give a sense of self rrighteousness and belonging to something big and powerful that was just so clearly a cult.
that is true a person could have the choice to believe what the bible said was truth for them or what twi said was truth amd bottom line that is exactly why many got M@A and/ or left twi. that is not anything just about everyone at grease spot cafe has not experienced in various degrees.
Rascal I will end my discussion with you as you can clearly read where you called the leaders in the way cowards from the above post. then accused me of lying about it .
and no I disagree I do not think abortions were presented as a sacrafice to God in the way ministry.
do I think consel was sought and given on what was taught in the way concerning breath life ? yes and that was a pregnancy was not a life until the child took took a breath.
The corps program was all about making leaders in the way ministry and that is who you say you sought consel from regarding your pregnancy .
Of course they will state what they believed was what the bible states as truth , and you bought it as truth or did it believing it was not the truth from the bible anyway and I am courious if that is the case then why?
breath life was taught in the foundational class pfal .
There is a tremendous difference between teaching abortion is not murder and pressuring someone into having one. I do not see why this is such a difficult concept for some to understand.
Yet when I went back in after being gone a decade things were very clear on how it is not so much a person involved or one act of abuse or choice made in foolishness or error but a group mentality of oneness and power over others that give a sense of self righteousness and belonging to something big and powerful that was just so clearly a cult.
I agree with this statement in part. Where did the "group think" come from in the first place? It came from the top traveling on downward. So it still falls back on the man or presently the woman, the buck stops there. But my agreement with you would include our free will to have stayed and allowed the superiority thinking to root in our brain. I have accepted my accountability of that, which has aided in my wholeness.
Glad your M & A netted you an exit, certainly there is something to that. Odd how things work sometime.
This chapter of my life took place four or five years before I ever heard about TWI. It is not about TWI, it is about women and what an unwanted abortion can do to them.
Three weeks after graduating high school, I moved to another state and got married to a boy I barely knew. I was totally infatuated with him. I thought he was was everything I was not, smart, sophisticated, etc. I was totally floored that he was even remotely interested in this little hick from the U.P. A month or so after we were married I was pregnant, not on purpose, but because he told me he could not have children without medical intervention so I didn't need birth control. I believed him.
When I told him I was pregnant he told me if I had the baby the marriage would be over. I wanted to have that baby. My heart told me having an abortion was wrong. But I couldn't face going home to my parents alone and pregnant.
I had the abortion. I don't know if something went wrong with the procedure or if I just did too much afterward, but the next day I spiked a fever over 101. I don't remember much about the 48 or so hours that followed, though I do recall there was talk of bringing me back to the clinic and that sent me into hysterics (not the haha kind).
Ironically, less than six months after I married him, I left him. And I mean I really left him. I moved to the other side of the country to get away from him. Then I discovered I was pregnant again. I wanted to have that baby too, but when he sent the divorce papers they stipulated that he would have full custody of the child. I didn't even begin to know how to fight him. I was terrified of him. During the few months we were married he reminded me over and over again of how crazy I was, even threatened to have me committed. When I first talked of leaving him he almost choked me to death (which I think scared him almost as much as it did me). I knew he was not fit to be a parent. So I had another abortion.
I was five days shy of thirty years old before I gave birth to my first child. During all of those years in between, most days I figured I never would have a child. It was my punishment for the two I aborted. I lived with guilt and shame for so very many years. I attempted suicide once, though it was really more a cry for help than a desire to die.
Now, as an adult and a parent, I no longer regret what I did. I wasn't fit to be a parent all of those years ago and neither was he. But those who have never been through it cannot even begin to understand the guilt and shame a woman can carry when she has been pressured into having an abortion when it is not what she wants. And despite how prevelant it may be today, it was not that long ago that having a child out of wedlock was also a terrible shame.
I think alot of things could have had more compassion and honest education when it came down to telling people what to do in life, abortion, divorce geez I know one couple that went for marriage conseling to adjust to the fact the wife had an affair with a leader and fell in love . to help all get used to the knew arrangement and marriage GEEEZ.
this is the part I am confused about.. many of the biggest victims of bad consel sought consel to the max. I know of families who wouldnt pee without ten phone calls to make sure it was the right decision if you ask me they kind of asked for it and also encouraged folks to give advice and act as Lord over their life . not all but it was often a power play to tell someone you spoke with a who is who on the way tree personly about a matter .
I never understood that part of how the way people thought.
I've stayed out of this argument until now mainly because I don't see clearly when human life begins. There are good arguments, biblical and scientific, for almost all the alternatives: conception, viability, first breath, and I'm sure others. Maybe erring on the side of caution would be best.
Whether we technically had a choice in cases of abortion, or any other matter, is really irelevant. Whether our own actions and decisions put us in a position where "leaders" were telling us how many sheets of toilet paper to wipe with is also irrelevant. What is relevant is that once in that position, "leaders" took advantage of our love for God, our desire to succeed, our ambition to be in the corps, our need to be part of "the household" or our perception that only TWI had the truth to get us to act in the way that they wanted us to.
I don't care if there was never an article in the Way Magazine or a chapter in the collaterals outlining the need to have an abortion to stay eligible for Corps training, I don't care if Wierwille never announced from his pulpit the same thing, it happened, and not just to rascal.
quote:Nope ... I was found and *invited* to spend some time with the lc`s closing some matters...which I did..when it was pointed out that if I had the child I would be a vow breaker...a liar that God would be mad....annanias and saphira were brought up a lot...that if I disobeyed leaderships` recomendation that I would become stiff necked...several biblical accounte of how God delt with stiff necked people...How God expected me to keep my promise....along with all of the other reasons it was not a life there for ok...(it took a whole weekend at the lc`s house) I came to my senses and was driven to the abortion clinic a week later by the bc...I ran away the first time....but then was brought back to the lc`s for a little more *instruction* .....though I did not want to ....my fear of dissapointing God was greater than my desire to protect the child.
So anyway...2nd time I came to my senses...bucked up...grew some back bone...I had my bc`s there for *support*...I quelled the panic and shame with sit and running scriptures through my mind so that I wouldn`t think about what was happening or how horribly wrong I felt and panic and flee
Like I said...NOW I was spiritually worthey...I was welcomed back onto the wow field...completed my app year in the corpes...was considered quite the little duolos...yep!@
My leaders were proud...dignity was restored...I am sure that God was impressed with my level of commitment.....satans plot to prevent me from a life time of service to God and the way ministry was foiled....what was the destruction of a *parasite* compaired to all of that???
Do any of you really think that rascal made that up? That she was exaggerating? That she was merely refusing to live up to the demands of the corps program? Open your friggin' eyes!
You know, when I first started coming to Waydale I read with skepticism many of the accounts, having never experienced much of what I saw there. I thought people were exaggerating or making things up.
At first.
The more I read, the more things had the ring of truth. Then I started meeting some of the writers in person. After a while it didn't seem so fantastic or unbelievable anymore.
And you posters who are challenging rascal: you weren't there. You have no basis to disagree with her. She isn't saying that what she was told was said to every pregnant woman in TWI, she's relating what happened to HER.
Stop publically calling her a liar whatdoncha? Maybe stop the analysis of HER actions, and concentrate on TWI's culpability.
I have no idea what people think do or believe Oak. I was referring to her statement about in which she used caps that she never using the word coward and calling me a liar and I being the one to use the word.. I showed her the post in which I was referring to in which she used the word coward.
You also make thigs up or infer mistruth Oak in which post did I ever call Rascal a liar?
( I write this as an edit you put Mj and where adressing the above post to me that is why I answered personly I do not see the mj at the top now who are you speaking to Oak? ) hmmmmm.
although Rascal has had a # of hissy fits concerning who or what I may think and invoked her friends and support system at me.
not once have I said Rascal is a liar. although you claiming such will icite a mini riot of habit patterns of behaviour many use still today.
Rascal has claimed:
When facts are presented they are denied , slander and name calling and a questioning of the intregrity , yelling screaming and horror stories and twisting of the facts and name calling.
having a group support that will rally around you and say your right and can not possibly be wrong just because they know ya and have met ya and that is all they need to know to attack and belittle the person and twist the facts, even those who have no idea what is going on will help your cause if the right names get involved. acccusations unfounded and refusal to address the orginal topic and instead twist the topic for their own gain and attention? not to metion the gossip and slander behind the scene.
is that what happened to you? I bet it seriously did .
it is how you and your group operated on this thread. to a tea.
it is ugly and hurtful and your still doing it.
im sorry this happened to you and efected your life so deeply.
As for me If it looks and acts like a cult it just might still be one and your right it happenes.
rule #1 I guess do not make the wrong leader ( I would use the word victim instead really) angry at ya Right? lol
When have I EVER invoked a *friend* system???...where did THAT come from??? I have only met ONE of the posters that rallied to my defense in person....(though I honestly thank all of you who did stand up for me..it was apreciated) nor do I believe that I have indulged in hystrionics at any point....I have simply tried to relate what twi taught me about abortions and fetal life...........I never asked nor whined to ANYONE for support...why are you doing this??
Could it be the reason you are seeing people speak up on my behalf ...rather than some kind of *cult conspiracy* is simply because you and oldies are percieved to be behaving inapropriatly?
I don`t understand you at all mj ...no malice...no anger...I just don`t understand your attempts to discredit my contribution to the thread.
if you do not see the love for you on this thread you are in denial .
that is what grease spot is -in my definition a large part of what grease spot is helping and supporting one another.
is that now a bad thing for you? you scream as if it is. (FREINDS)
as far as your accusation of me behaving "inapropriatY" do you care enough to be specific or is is just another general sweeping insult you notice and have a need to claim as truth for a group , like maybe perhaps .
do you want to apologize to me for calling me a liar and being proved in error ? not needed at all but it may change the tide of your reality and what and how you write your posts .
and as you accuse me of discrediting your contribution to this thread I would indeed ask you to show me exactly where I did that.
mj...I repeat ..I do not know these people in these forums...though I admire and respect them tremendously...even you at times...nor do I merrit some kind or preferencial treatment..
I wasn`t IN error...you mischaracterised what I said...
Almost every post you have made on this thread has mischaracterised me or something I have written or have out and out called me a liar by saying that I was not told this....
Why not just follow your earlier declaration and just cease to converse with me on this thread ok? I am tired of having to defend myself against you.
where did that group think come from ? I do not think it was a man or a woman at the top they did indeed organize the group and allow a structure to form that flourished the ideas...
But the twi used ego as its source.. A God like feeling of super power abilities was given in the mind of those who participated in the group and of course the more the heiarchy of power prevailed the more work and loyalty was invested in the group.
the higher on the heiarchy the more powerful you became.
I think people want power in this world and prestige and the ability to tell others.
in short I think people want to play God in this world and twi gave them an areana to beat the band for it !
Rascal are you marking and avoiding me? done that already .
I have no need to carry on in our rather pathetic discourse , but I wish you would at least clarify some of your attempts to discredit me and my respones in this thread with facts and specifics instead of just accusations and name calling.
your not defending yourself against me the way I see it you do not want to defend yourself against what you say about me when called to be accountable for what you write . so you want me to just go away instead.
It is called passive agression and I am not the least bit intimidated by the game anymore.
I do not understand very much of what you said mj....it was you who stated that you didn`t want to talk to me any more...I just ask you to consider doing so....a far cry from m&a.
as you make very little sense to me ... I find it difficult to respond to your posts.
I ask you to leave me alone please.....I am tired of being badgered.
quote:And you posters who are challenging rascal: you weren't there. You have no basis to disagree with her. She isn't saying that what she was told was said to every pregnant woman in TWI, she's relating what happened to HER.
Point well taken.
But I guess what bothers me is the perception that rascal's experiences were widespread, from rascal's own posts. If she stated clearly "this is what I thought ... ", then no problem ... but many perceptions from her weren't just talking about her, but suggested those perceptions applied to many others as well. Here are some examples. Rascals own words:
quote:Oldies ...I beg to differ Twi taught us women whom were pregnant at an *incovenient* time.... that abortion right and was necessary up untill to the first breath after birth WAS acceptable....none of this third trimester junk.
quote:The TRICK was ...not letting it get that first breath...thus partial birth was acceptable and noble if it was done in order so mom could finish her spiritual *duties*.
quote:I know that we were taught that the fetus ..untill it took it`s first breath ...no matter how old even at 9 months....that it was still considered a parasite because it was dependant upon it`s mother/host.
quote:What they *said* to you and what they *did* to others are to entirely different things oldies...
quote:If you were corpes in training or wow or had intentions of being either, If you became pregnant....You must have an abortion...period
quote:God required this of anyone who was spiritually committed...to NOT do so would be to lie to God to be a breaker of vows ....to allow a *parasite* to prevent you from completeing your commitment meant that you had allowed satan to trick you....you had let God down.
quote:It was not just me who was held to this standard ... there was a whole teaching schpeal that was trotted out for any of us who might have considered wavering in our duty and commitment to God...the same logic the same verses...different leaders different areas...
quote:No doubt God was absolutly delighted with our loyalty to him and commitment to HIS cause ...as he watched us demonstrate our spiritual maturity...the ultimate test of our loyalty ... as we submitted ourselves and allowed our fetus/children to be butchered in HIS name for HIS service.....
quote: You were free to leave...only if you didn`t mind being posessed/contaminated spiritually.....no longer worthy to be in the presence of God OR his people due to your depravity.
quote: Suuure you could leave the wow field/way corpes ...but at the cost of everything and everyone you held dear....shoot you were going to let a little ole *parasite* interfere with your duty to God/household/family????
quote:Sides..if you DO go against God`s will and carry this child ...it will be deformed or posessed because God wont be with you any more.
quote:SIDETRACKED?????? ALLEGED???? I told you what IS taught in twi to ladies who found themselves in my uneviable position.......and have been backed up in my account byby several posters on more than one occasion who were taught the same thing!
quote:This isn`t some vague memory of some teaching I once read somewhere oldies...I am relating to you life and death decisions that I/we were bullied into making WITH the scriptural gobbeldy gook provided that was used to ensure obediance.
quote:This IS What twi taught....whatever you may remember was the pap that they fed to those who weren`t *spiritual* enough to handle the greater *truths*.
I tried to convey what twi's position was on abortion, and partial birth abortion, proving it according to what was written. It's not fair to just dismiss this as "pap."
It is interesting to note that Raf asked me to prove what I said, but failed to ask Rascal to prove what she said, where it applied directly to others as well.
Did I behave badly on this thread? I don't think so. I don't think anyone is behaving badly when they are politely expressing their own opinion, while simultaneously expressing doubts about other posters' perceptions of how an issue relates to the entire ministry.
This is one reason why I think we should look at our posts as opinions, not truth. If someone doesn't believe everything, fine. You shouldn't take offense. Because opinions and perceptions may vary from one poster to another.
Maybe I should have explained it nicer oldies...you are right...I guess this topic makes me angry....and it must have looked as if I was directing that anger at you....please allow me to explain what I meant by pap...ok?
Twi had two different teachings on many given subjects ...ones that everybody heard the newer believers...the babes if you will who could only handle the *milk* of the word...then there was the ones reserved for those who were able to digest *meat* things only the spiritually *mature* could handle...... there were ever deeper levels of spiritual *truths* the longer you were in and the more commited you became...
There were always more *in depth* teachings for the *spiritually mature*... only shared with those who could *handle it* thats how they said it...and so of course you wanted to be deemed *mature* wanted to be percieved as spiritual...so many of us would keep our mouths shut when questionable doctrine arose...less folks think we were still spiritual *babes*..and unable to *handle* it and we would feel oh so important that we were deemed *mature* enough to be taught these higher *truths*
When I called your sharing *pap*...I am sorry I didn`t intend to demean you or your post...twi`s double standard ....es me off...not you or what you shared...I meant thats what twi taught the main stream believers in twi...there were so many teachings like about lock box...about sex ...about abortions ...that were never taught as mainstream big top roa teachings...I don`t know if this makes it any clearer why some have been taught one set of standards and others another.
Your inapropraite behavior is when you called me a liar..when you said that I had exagerated made exagerrated claims before..THAT is a personal attack...period...
You may lable it opinion all you want...but I have not lied...and I resent your implication that I have...especially when others have backed my account of twi`s teachings.
If your confused Rascal let me help you in any way I can .
IM happy and glad you do not want me to leave and I understand it is just that Im not good enough to be read by you now. hmpf.
Because I "make little sense" and" you find it difficult to respond" when asked for a specific facts concerning your accusasions of me which have been numerous on a very personal level.
As far as your energy level and the "badgered" problem I am only responding to the posts written here that address me personly.
you do not always have to end up a victim of some sort with every conversation if you do not chose to be.
I will say your last post is written in a maner that is much clearer and to the topic and Im glad you where able to clarify your thoughts in such a way on this thread.
"What I believed then and what I believe now really has NO bearing on the destructive actions of twi leaders who demanded destruction of an unborn child simply to appease God....sometimes twi stikes me as barbaric as the aztec and inca communities sacraficing babies and children to keep their Gods happy..... "
Wow, that quote rocks my world. Apt comparison.
YES, IT WAS WIDESPREAD
The very Corps from which you were dismissed, oldies had SCORES of abortions. I talked to a NUMBER of these young ladies and ALL were told, either by VP or LCM or a few others to abort or you're gone. They got the whole committment spiel and were warned about the viability of their future spiritual standing. Pitiful, shameful, and in my mind, criminal.
TWI, the leaders in the field, never in print that I know of, PROMOTED abortion as an acceptable form of birth control. This was rampant, in all parts of the country that I was in, in the 70's. Given the continued vagueness about sex outside of marriage that continued (maybe still continues today?), I see no reason to think it wouldn't still have been counseled as a viable form of birth control in the 80's and 90's.
And we all know (ginosko) how things can be presented in "counsel"... often (not always) as YOU WILL DO THIS or YOU NEED TO DO THIS... that's no surprise to anyone present I would think.
Rascal's account fits perfectly with experiences many of us had ... as far as feeling there wasn't really a "choice"...
So I don't really understand what the "hub bub" is all about. Her account fits perfectly with what was going on within TWI. Her personal anguish and other feelings are just that... personal. Those are something that I won't know about experientially for the same reason as her, but I do know those feelings for other reasons. I'm sure many do. I'm guessing that's why folks posted here in her defense. I know that's why I did.
Some of the posts on this thread do not even merit a reply. They're outlandish and ridiculous.
I agree it was widespread and abortion was not something anyone thought was worth thinking about just a solution to a very common problem in the way.
I know alot of people had sex and got pregnate we for the most part were all young and horny I know of many many affairs single married etc.
It was widespread and everyone knew it I would think a tape of the YEAR or even decade would have been generated to stop the why the abortions where so rampant. sex is addressed clearly in the bible if not abortion...
but NOOOO it was never really confronted as a big problem I think because if the way would have stopped all the sex and affairs happening in its hey day very few would have stuck around as long as they did.. seriously, it was that bad and accepted.
maybe I saw it because I was single young and pretty but I tell ya the way ministry believers where some of the most sexualy active folks I have ever encountered in my life and proud of it and I think VPW and the cf and sex class encouraged such behaviours along with it is all grace and if you can handle it doctrine .
What it surprising to me is the fact twi had always claimed the breath life doctrine as truth so to be aghast or even surprized at the suggestion abortion was an option for an unwanted pregnancy does not make sense to me at all.
do I think they made the exodus teaching up to cover for their consel that an abortion is an option ?
no I do not. but I think they took it to an extrememe measure without much intelligent or compassionate thought involved in many many cases.
When LCM was talking about the teens having sex at the rock and that is a problem I busted a gut .. Im telling ya cant see the forest through the tree or what?
so what has really changed I thought that now the off spring of this mess is repeating its very self??? started to get a little scary didnt it?
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mj412
this is where you call the leaders cowards Rascal .
It was what the corp program was all about .
I make no accusation of you yet you seem to have your full of who and what i am and have done for sure.
whatever.
you obviously have either changed your mind on how you feel about the bible teaching you believed back then or you lied to yourself to impress someone 19 years ago .
that is indeed an outrage and Im sorry you had to go through that.
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houseisarockin
mj412, I can understand recognizing things in our lives that need change, and I don't discount I received that while a part of twi. Apparently you felt being titled as Mark and Avoid was appropriate or earned in some way. I disagree that incredibly fallible men could make such an assumption regarding my life. And that to me is the crux of this issue (not the abortion one). It is allowing men who abused the position of spiritual overseers to dictate mandates "in the name of God" that would affect our lives.
Have you any idea the number of times we were told in moments of hesitation that breaking our commitment would sever (in part) our tie to God? The Word does not back that up. Rather it says NOTHING can separate us from the love of God.
Can we overcome injurious times in our lives? I believe with honesty and hard work most can get to the point it does not have to dictate control. Do I agree we have to remain bitter and victimized? I can only go by myself, my story is one that would allow me the rights to be, but I continue to work towards not having that description. And very simply because they had enough already, I want the rest of my life.
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rascal
What I believed then and what I believe now really has NO bearing on the destructive actions of twi leaders who demanded destruction of an unborn child simply to appease God....sometimes twi stikes me as barbaric as the aztec and inca communities sacraficing babies and children to keep their Gods happy.....
This was not what the corpes was portrayed to be about mj...sorry.
I fail to see why my experience, veracity, and sanity are being questioned over what twi taught and demanded of its adherents....there are other posters on this thread that have verified that they were taught the same thing.
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mj412
Being M@A got me out of a cult quite quickly to which I am thankful.
no one would speak to me so I was not dragged into years of who was right or wrong and began a new life with gladness and Joy in knowing God and much love.
I doubt I may have ever left if I had not been M@A. I do not know.
Yet when I went back in after being gone a decade things were very clear on how it is not so much a person involved or one act of abuse or choice made in foolishness or error but a group mentality of oneness and power over others that give a sense of self rrighteousness and belonging to something big and powerful that was just so clearly a cult.
that is true a person could have the choice to believe what the bible said was truth for them or what twi said was truth amd bottom line that is exactly why many got M@A and/ or left twi. that is not anything just about everyone at grease spot cafe has not experienced in various degrees.
Rascal I will end my discussion with you as you can clearly read where you called the leaders in the way cowards from the above post. then accused me of lying about it .
and no I disagree I do not think abortions were presented as a sacrafice to God in the way ministry.
do I think consel was sought and given on what was taught in the way concerning breath life ? yes and that was a pregnancy was not a life until the child took took a breath.
The corps program was all about making leaders in the way ministry and that is who you say you sought consel from regarding your pregnancy .
Of course they will state what they believed was what the bible states as truth , and you bought it as truth or did it believing it was not the truth from the bible anyway and I am courious if that is the case then why?
breath life was taught in the foundational class pfal .
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Abigail
There is a tremendous difference between teaching abortion is not murder and pressuring someone into having one. I do not see why this is such a difficult concept for some to understand.
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houseisarockin
I agree with this statement in part. Where did the "group think" come from in the first place? It came from the top traveling on downward. So it still falls back on the man or presently the woman, the buck stops there. But my agreement with you would include our free will to have stayed and allowed the superiority thinking to root in our brain. I have accepted my accountability of that, which has aided in my wholeness.
Glad your M & A netted you an exit, certainly there is something to that. Odd how things work sometime.
Abigail, excellent point!
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Abigail
For you Rascal, because I do understand.
This chapter of my life took place four or five years before I ever heard about TWI. It is not about TWI, it is about women and what an unwanted abortion can do to them.
Three weeks after graduating high school, I moved to another state and got married to a boy I barely knew. I was totally infatuated with him. I thought he was was everything I was not, smart, sophisticated, etc. I was totally floored that he was even remotely interested in this little hick from the U.P. A month or so after we were married I was pregnant, not on purpose, but because he told me he could not have children without medical intervention so I didn't need birth control. I believed him.
When I told him I was pregnant he told me if I had the baby the marriage would be over. I wanted to have that baby. My heart told me having an abortion was wrong. But I couldn't face going home to my parents alone and pregnant.
I had the abortion. I don't know if something went wrong with the procedure or if I just did too much afterward, but the next day I spiked a fever over 101. I don't remember much about the 48 or so hours that followed, though I do recall there was talk of bringing me back to the clinic and that sent me into hysterics (not the haha kind).
Ironically, less than six months after I married him, I left him. And I mean I really left him. I moved to the other side of the country to get away from him. Then I discovered I was pregnant again. I wanted to have that baby too, but when he sent the divorce papers they stipulated that he would have full custody of the child. I didn't even begin to know how to fight him. I was terrified of him. During the few months we were married he reminded me over and over again of how crazy I was, even threatened to have me committed. When I first talked of leaving him he almost choked me to death (which I think scared him almost as much as it did me). I knew he was not fit to be a parent. So I had another abortion.
I was five days shy of thirty years old before I gave birth to my first child. During all of those years in between, most days I figured I never would have a child. It was my punishment for the two I aborted. I lived with guilt and shame for so very many years. I attempted suicide once, though it was really more a cry for help than a desire to die.
Now, as an adult and a parent, I no longer regret what I did. I wasn't fit to be a parent all of those years ago and neither was he. But those who have never been through it cannot even begin to understand the guilt and shame a woman can carry when she has been pressured into having an abortion when it is not what she wants. And despite how prevelant it may be today, it was not that long ago that having a child out of wedlock was also a terrible shame.
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mj412
I think alot of things could have had more compassion and honest education when it came down to telling people what to do in life, abortion, divorce geez I know one couple that went for marriage conseling to adjust to the fact the wife had an affair with a leader and fell in love . to help all get used to the knew arrangement and marriage GEEEZ.
this is the part I am confused about.. many of the biggest victims of bad consel sought consel to the max. I know of families who wouldnt pee without ten phone calls to make sure it was the right decision if you ask me they kind of asked for it and also encouraged folks to give advice and act as Lord over their life . not all but it was often a power play to tell someone you spoke with a who is who on the way tree personly about a matter .
I never understood that part of how the way people thought.
probably why I was M@A . hahaha
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Oakspear
I've stayed out of this argument until now mainly because I don't see clearly when human life begins. There are good arguments, biblical and scientific, for almost all the alternatives: conception, viability, first breath, and I'm sure others. Maybe erring on the side of caution would be best.
Whether we technically had a choice in cases of abortion, or any other matter, is really irelevant. Whether our own actions and decisions put us in a position where "leaders" were telling us how many sheets of toilet paper to wipe with is also irrelevant. What is relevant is that once in that position, "leaders" took advantage of our love for God, our desire to succeed, our ambition to be in the corps, our need to be part of "the household" or our perception that only TWI had the truth to get us to act in the way that they wanted us to.
I don't care if there was never an article in the Way Magazine or a chapter in the collaterals outlining the need to have an abortion to stay eligible for Corps training, I don't care if Wierwille never announced from his pulpit the same thing, it happened, and not just to rascal.
Do any of you really think that rascal made that up? That she was exaggerating? That she was merely refusing to live up to the demands of the corps program? Open your friggin' eyes!You know, when I first started coming to Waydale I read with skepticism many of the accounts, having never experienced much of what I saw there. I thought people were exaggerating or making things up.
At first.
The more I read, the more things had the ring of truth. Then I started meeting some of the writers in person. After a while it didn't seem so fantastic or unbelievable anymore.
And you posters who are challenging rascal: you weren't there. You have no basis to disagree with her. She isn't saying that what she was told was said to every pregnant woman in TWI, she's relating what happened to HER.
Stop publically calling her a liar whatdoncha? Maybe stop the analysis of HER actions, and concentrate on TWI's culpability.
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mj412
I have no idea what people think do or believe Oak. I was referring to her statement about in which she used caps that she never using the word coward and calling me a liar and I being the one to use the word.. I showed her the post in which I was referring to in which she used the word coward.
You also make thigs up or infer mistruth Oak in which post did I ever call Rascal a liar?
( I write this as an edit you put Mj and where adressing the above post to me that is why I answered personly I do not see the mj at the top now who are you speaking to Oak? ) hmmmmm.
although Rascal has had a # of hissy fits concerning who or what I may think and invoked her friends and support system at me.
not once have I said Rascal is a liar. although you claiming such will icite a mini riot of habit patterns of behaviour many use still today.
Rascal has claimed:
When facts are presented they are denied , slander and name calling and a questioning of the intregrity , yelling screaming and horror stories and twisting of the facts and name calling.
having a group support that will rally around you and say your right and can not possibly be wrong just because they know ya and have met ya and that is all they need to know to attack and belittle the person and twist the facts, even those who have no idea what is going on will help your cause if the right names get involved. acccusations unfounded and refusal to address the orginal topic and instead twist the topic for their own gain and attention? not to metion the gossip and slander behind the scene.
is that what happened to you? I bet it seriously did .
it is how you and your group operated on this thread. to a tea.
it is ugly and hurtful and your still doing it.
im sorry this happened to you and efected your life so deeply.
As for me If it looks and acts like a cult it just might still be one and your right it happenes.
rule #1 I guess do not make the wrong leader ( I would use the word victim instead really) angry at ya Right? lol
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rascal
When have I EVER invoked a *friend* system???...where did THAT come from??? I have only met ONE of the posters that rallied to my defense in person....(though I honestly thank all of you who did stand up for me..it was apreciated) nor do I believe that I have indulged in hystrionics at any point....I have simply tried to relate what twi taught me about abortions and fetal life...........I never asked nor whined to ANYONE for support...why are you doing this??
Could it be the reason you are seeing people speak up on my behalf ...rather than some kind of *cult conspiracy* is simply because you and oldies are percieved to be behaving inapropriatly?
I don`t understand you at all mj ...no malice...no anger...I just don`t understand your attempts to discredit my contribution to the thread.
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mj412
oh Rascal
if you do not see the love for you on this thread you are in denial .
that is what grease spot is -in my definition a large part of what grease spot is helping and supporting one another.
is that now a bad thing for you? you scream as if it is. (FREINDS)
as far as your accusation of me behaving "inapropriatY" do you care enough to be specific or is is just another general sweeping insult you notice and have a need to claim as truth for a group , like maybe perhaps .
do you want to apologize to me for calling me a liar and being proved in error ? not needed at all but it may change the tide of your reality and what and how you write your posts .
and as you accuse me of discrediting your contribution to this thread I would indeed ask you to show me exactly where I did that.
be specific Rascal it helps.
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rascal
mj...I repeat ..I do not know these people in these forums...though I admire and respect them tremendously...even you at times...nor do I merrit some kind or preferencial treatment..
I wasn`t IN error...you mischaracterised what I said...
Almost every post you have made on this thread has mischaracterised me or something I have written or have out and out called me a liar by saying that I was not told this....
Why not just follow your earlier declaration and just cease to converse with me on this thread ok? I am tired of having to defend myself against you.
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mj412
houseis a rocking
where did that group think come from ? I do not think it was a man or a woman at the top they did indeed organize the group and allow a structure to form that flourished the ideas...
But the twi used ego as its source.. A God like feeling of super power abilities was given in the mind of those who participated in the group and of course the more the heiarchy of power prevailed the more work and loyalty was invested in the group.
the higher on the heiarchy the more powerful you became.
I think people want power in this world and prestige and the ability to tell others.
in short I think people want to play God in this world and twi gave them an areana to beat the band for it !
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mj412
Rascal are you marking and avoiding me? done that already .
I have no need to carry on in our rather pathetic discourse , but I wish you would at least clarify some of your attempts to discredit me and my respones in this thread with facts and specifics instead of just accusations and name calling.
your not defending yourself against me the way I see it you do not want to defend yourself against what you say about me when called to be accountable for what you write . so you want me to just go away instead.
It is called passive agression and I am not the least bit intimidated by the game anymore.
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rascal
I do not understand very much of what you said mj....it was you who stated that you didn`t want to talk to me any more...I just ask you to consider doing so....a far cry from m&a.
as you make very little sense to me ... I find it difficult to respond to your posts.
I ask you to leave me alone please.....I am tired of being badgered.
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oldiesman
I guess this thread still has some life left.
Oakspear
Point well taken.But I guess what bothers me is the perception that rascal's experiences were widespread, from rascal's own posts. If she stated clearly "this is what I thought ... ", then no problem ... but many perceptions from her weren't just talking about her, but suggested those perceptions applied to many others as well. Here are some examples. Rascals own words:
I tried to convey what twi's position was on abortion, and partial birth abortion, proving it according to what was written. It's not fair to just dismiss this as "pap."
It is interesting to note that Raf asked me to prove what I said, but failed to ask Rascal to prove what she said, where it applied directly to others as well.
Did I behave badly on this thread? I don't think so. I don't think anyone is behaving badly when they are politely expressing their own opinion, while simultaneously expressing doubts about other posters' perceptions of how an issue relates to the entire ministry.
This is one reason why I think we should look at our posts as opinions, not truth. If someone doesn't believe everything, fine. You shouldn't take offense. Because opinions and perceptions may vary from one poster to another.
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rascal
Maybe I should have explained it nicer oldies...you are right...I guess this topic makes me angry....and it must have looked as if I was directing that anger at you....please allow me to explain what I meant by pap...ok?
Twi had two different teachings on many given subjects ...ones that everybody heard the newer believers...the babes if you will who could only handle the *milk* of the word...then there was the ones reserved for those who were able to digest *meat* things only the spiritually *mature* could handle...... there were ever deeper levels of spiritual *truths* the longer you were in and the more commited you became...
There were always more *in depth* teachings for the *spiritually mature*... only shared with those who could *handle it* thats how they said it...and so of course you wanted to be deemed *mature* wanted to be percieved as spiritual...so many of us would keep our mouths shut when questionable doctrine arose...less folks think we were still spiritual *babes*..and unable to *handle* it and we would feel oh so important that we were deemed *mature* enough to be taught these higher *truths*
When I called your sharing *pap*...I am sorry I didn`t intend to demean you or your post...twi`s double standard ....es me off...not you or what you shared...I meant thats what twi taught the main stream believers in twi...there were so many teachings like about lock box...about sex ...about abortions ...that were never taught as mainstream big top roa teachings...I don`t know if this makes it any clearer why some have been taught one set of standards and others another.
Your inapropraite behavior is when you called me a liar..when you said that I had exagerated made exagerrated claims before..THAT is a personal attack...period...
You may lable it opinion all you want...but I have not lied...and I resent your implication that I have...especially when others have backed my account of twi`s teachings.
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mj412
If your confused Rascal let me help you in any way I can .
IM happy and glad you do not want me to leave and I understand it is just that Im not good enough to be read by you now. hmpf.
Because I "make little sense" and" you find it difficult to respond" when asked for a specific facts concerning your accusasions of me which have been numerous on a very personal level.
As far as your energy level and the "badgered" problem I am only responding to the posts written here that address me personly.
you do not always have to end up a victim of some sort with every conversation if you do not chose to be.
I will say your last post is written in a maner that is much clearer and to the topic and Im glad you where able to clarify your thoughts in such a way on this thread.
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rascal
Mj...you make no sense to me..I am sorry.. I do not understand your continued badgering...but I would like you to stop.
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Steve!
mj, I don't see where rascal has made ANY accusations against you.
I think that you are being overly sensitive.
And sometimes I too have trouble reading your posts.
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TheEvan
"What I believed then and what I believe now really has NO bearing on the destructive actions of twi leaders who demanded destruction of an unborn child simply to appease God....sometimes twi stikes me as barbaric as the aztec and inca communities sacraficing babies and children to keep their Gods happy..... "
Wow, that quote rocks my world. Apt comparison.
YES, IT WAS WIDESPREAD
The very Corps from which you were dismissed, oldies had SCORES of abortions. I talked to a NUMBER of these young ladies and ALL were told, either by VP or LCM or a few others to abort or you're gone. They got the whole committment spiel and were warned about the viability of their future spiritual standing. Pitiful, shameful, and in my mind, criminal.
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Tom Strange
TWI, the leaders in the field, never in print that I know of, PROMOTED abortion as an acceptable form of birth control. This was rampant, in all parts of the country that I was in, in the 70's. Given the continued vagueness about sex outside of marriage that continued (maybe still continues today?), I see no reason to think it wouldn't still have been counseled as a viable form of birth control in the 80's and 90's.
And we all know (ginosko) how things can be presented in "counsel"... often (not always) as YOU WILL DO THIS or YOU NEED TO DO THIS... that's no surprise to anyone present I would think.
Rascal's account fits perfectly with experiences many of us had ... as far as feeling there wasn't really a "choice"...
So I don't really understand what the "hub bub" is all about. Her account fits perfectly with what was going on within TWI. Her personal anguish and other feelings are just that... personal. Those are something that I won't know about experientially for the same reason as her, but I do know those feelings for other reasons. I'm sure many do. I'm guessing that's why folks posted here in her defense. I know that's why I did.
Some of the posts on this thread do not even merit a reply. They're outlandish and ridiculous.
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mj412
I agree it was widespread and abortion was not something anyone thought was worth thinking about just a solution to a very common problem in the way.
I know alot of people had sex and got pregnate we for the most part were all young and horny I know of many many affairs single married etc.
It was widespread and everyone knew it I would think a tape of the YEAR or even decade would have been generated to stop the why the abortions where so rampant. sex is addressed clearly in the bible if not abortion...
but NOOOO it was never really confronted as a big problem I think because if the way would have stopped all the sex and affairs happening in its hey day very few would have stuck around as long as they did.. seriously, it was that bad and accepted.
maybe I saw it because I was single young and pretty but I tell ya the way ministry believers where some of the most sexualy active folks I have ever encountered in my life and proud of it and I think VPW and the cf and sex class encouraged such behaviours along with it is all grace and if you can handle it doctrine .
What it surprising to me is the fact twi had always claimed the breath life doctrine as truth so to be aghast or even surprized at the suggestion abortion was an option for an unwanted pregnancy does not make sense to me at all.
do I think they made the exodus teaching up to cover for their consel that an abortion is an option ?
no I do not. but I think they took it to an extrememe measure without much intelligent or compassionate thought involved in many many cases.
When LCM was talking about the teens having sex at the rock and that is a problem I busted a gut .. Im telling ya cant see the forest through the tree or what?
so what has really changed I thought that now the off spring of this mess is repeating its very self??? started to get a little scary didnt it?
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