I was just thinking how many Pierre Cardin suits a MOG really needs.
I don't recal Jesus Christ requesting AMBERCHROMBE & FITCH or anything like it. The man moved the word with the clothes on his back and the sandals on his feet as far as I can see.
I would LITERALLY feel guilty if I were wearing name brand clothing my sisters/brethren paid for while they were getting ridiculed for the 2nd hand clothing that they wore. Ridiculed by some of the TWI leaders no less.
But hey NO GUILT right, "one who sees himself righteous feels no GUILT". Well maybe I am not righteous then.
This subject really irritates me, I remember being told to only witness to middle class believers because TWI had no use for the poor.
Poor had no money!! They were a hinderance.
We witnessed to everyone, anyone, regardless of where they lived, what they dressed like, and if they were jobless even.
No condemnation here. I try not to be judgemental and exhorted our twig/HFC to be the same way.
It irratates me that the money that went to TWI was spent so recklessly. Million dollar television camaras etc . Never ... Not a need, help out a single parent who is trying there best. You know the single mom who scrubs the LCs toilets for free twice weekly.
There were many men and women who couldn't afford a suit or a dress for a class or an event in the latter years. Truly sad. Then ridiculed for what they wore.
I remember when I first took pfal ... My jeans had rips in the knees .. No one cared!!. I was still paying of school loans at this point.
What Happened?
HELP THE PEOPLE WHO ARE HELPING THE MINISTRY ..... HELP THOSE WHO ARE TRYING TO HELP THEMSELVES
have lots of mixed feelings about this. on the one hand, you'd think they should've helped when there was a need; on the other, should ABS money be used like that? don't know...
Let me ask a question...
When we ABS'd, was the heart "giving to God" or "twi"?
When you think of being "good" to the household, do you think of "twi's" defination or what God's defination might be...
Shouldn't "God's money" be used to help "God's people"?
Many churches help those in there congriation in times of need with the Tithe that has been donated. And, the members of that church don't seem to have a problem with that. Of course, the church books are open for public scrutiny.
It seems to me that twi was just selfish and self serving. This seems to me, that this is/was twi policy and practice from the "top to the bottom".
THe Mormon welfare system is supported by offerings by each ward's(congregations) "fast offerings" which stay in the ward. Once a month on a Sunday everyone fasts for one or two meals, usually breakfast or lunch, and gives the money that would have been spent on food to the fast offering. Understand no one checks up to see if you actually fast, and no one sets a dollar amount on what you give (OR IF YOU GIVE)that is up to your own conscience. Being single my offering would be actually about $5.00 a month but I give more because I remember what it is like to not have
THe fund is used to provide food if you are in need (and I mean a LOT of food meat, fruit, veggies, milk, formula, butter, Eggs THE LIST GOES ON you can select whatever you want in wHAt quantities you want and the Relief society delivers it to your home. They help with utility bills, rent payments, have an employment center at the stake level, they will help you find housing. they will help you with medical bills..the list goes on.
Tithing is also encouraged (again a matter for your own conscience) That is 10% ,again no one gives you a problem if you don't tithe,however, if you are consistently in a jam the bishopric might explain why tithing is a conmmandment of GOD and blessings often flow from that commitment. But they won't withhold aid from you if you don't tithe.
The tithes go directly to CHurch headquarters in Salt Lake. Headquarters pays for the buildings, the teaching materials, your lesson books, the hymnals, the office equipment in short eveything you need to run a church and the buildings are always very beautiful and well maintained and "well stocked"
OUr churches want for nothing.
We do not have a paid clergy, a paid anything, for that matter, until you get to the Very highest echelons of the church. And only then because their callings are full time
Everyone else volunteers their time and efforts, holds down a job, raises their kids etc. It is a good system, no one should ever feel "Lower". Callings are changed as led my GOds inspiration (my belief system not getting into a theological debate here :)-->)
Next month I could have a new bishop who used to be the yong Men's leader. The Former Bishop could now be the ward secretary. GOd teaches us that all "callings" are of him and that no one is to esteem his calling as being "Better or worse" than another as all are necessary for the working of the body.
As for other charities, churches, and non members we are taught to be generous with all those in need.
I think my Stake president said it best when during a meeting with him the subject of my working for SAlvation Army came up. I Said "they are vey anti Mormon..."The Stake President cut in and said "But they do so much wonderful wonderful work --there will be rewards in heaven for the work they do!"
Oldies & anyone else debating whether "ABS" should be used for this or that:
Is the term "abundant sharing" ever used in the bible? Even once?
And "ABS" is just a three character abbreviation for "abundant sharing" that we had to use on the "blue forms" (FNC for Foundational Class, INT for Intermediate, etc) - I really hate using their terminology when it isn't necessary
But that's just my opinion...the rest of you carry on! :D-->
Amen Tom... I have told my husband on more than one occasion to consider the momrmon denomination...as I truly wish that we had another wife around here to help with the dishes .. laundry kiddoes..housework...yardwork...heck around here we could keep 3 or 4 wives busy full time...hee hee
The LDS church does not practice Polygamy because it is against the laws of this country.
The law against polygamy in the United States was upheld by the Supreme Court in OCTOBER, 1878
in 1890, then President Woodruff, issued a proclamation that abolished plural marriages in the Utah Territory.
The LDS church does not condone or practice polygamy on this earth. While we still believe it to be a principle of GOD, mormonism teaches obedience to civil authorities.
Those who defied President Woodruff were excommunicated. The FLDS or Self styled "Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints". Is not a part of, nor has it ever been recognized, as A part of the Church of Jesus Christ of LAtter Day Saints. Polygamists who come to the knowledge of LDS authorities are turned over to the Law.
And for all you men that think polygamy would be a "cool" thing
Please keep in mind that the laws governing polygamy, when it was still practiced within the church, Carried a hefty price tag.
FIRST your wife or other wives had to agree to the woman you picked--no agreement no new wife
SECOND each wife had to have equal, separate and comparable dwellings, furnishings, clothes necessities etc. That means that if you and your current wife have a two bedroom ranch on three acres wife number two gets a two bedroom ranch on three acres.
Even in President Young's Beehive House each wife had separate and equal quarters.
the same rules apply to all children.
And if any of you are that wealthy out there--drop me a line..... ;)-->
quote:FIRST your wife or other wives had to agree to the woman you picked--no agreement no new wife
Mo, this concept sounds so interesting... i was recently watching a Bonanza episode and the subject was polygamy...the Cartwrights got involved with this nice Mormon man and his two wives... and they loved each other like sisters...wouldn't do anything to hurt the other. What a foreign concept in today's society, isn't it?
Their welfare system sounds pretty decent, and I like the part about them asking folks to give of their time and money (if they physically can) ... I'm sure they try to discourage folks taking and taking all the time without giving back. That seems reasonable. I think that kind of a system could only work where everyone did their part and the folks administering the system are absolutely trustworthy... I was pretty much always against welfare... totally against a governmental welfare system because of the lack of accountability and trustworthiness. Thanks for the info.
oldiesman, it seems as though helping others is the ONLY thing our money should be used for:
Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all [men], as every man had need.
Act 4:35 And laid [them] down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
1Cr 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but [that] the members should have the same care one for another.
Deu 10:18 He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment
Deu 10:19 Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
Deu 14:29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which [are] within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.
Deu 26:12 When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, [which is] the year of tithing, and hast given [it] unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled;
Deu 26:13 Then thou shalt say before the LORD thy God, I have brought away the hallowed things out of [mine] house, and also have given them unto the Levite, and unto the stranger, to the fatherless, and to the widow, according to all thy commandments which thou hast commanded me: I have not transgressed thy commandments, neither have I forgotten [them]:
Job 24:3 They [the evil] drive away the *** of the fatherless, they take the widow's ox for a pledge. (or Mrs. VPW’s house for their own?)
Job 24:4 They turn the needy out of the way: the poor of the earth hide themselves together.
Job 24:7 They cause the naked to lodge without clothing, that [they have] no covering in the cold.
Job 24:10 They cause [him] to go naked without clothing, and they take away the sheaf [from] the hungry;
Job 24:11 [Which] make oil within their walls, [and] tread [their] winepresses, and suffer thirst.
Isa 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Isa 1:23 Thy princes [are] rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.
Zec 7:10 And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.
Mal 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in [his] wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger [from his right], and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
Luk 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
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Digitalis
Rascal
YOU GO GIRL!!
I was just thinking how many Pierre Cardin suits a MOG really needs.
I don't recal Jesus Christ requesting AMBERCHROMBE & FITCH or anything like it. The man moved the word with the clothes on his back and the sandals on his feet as far as I can see.
I would LITERALLY feel guilty if I were wearing name brand clothing my sisters/brethren paid for while they were getting ridiculed for the 2nd hand clothing that they wore. Ridiculed by some of the TWI leaders no less.
But hey NO GUILT right, "one who sees himself righteous feels no GUILT". Well maybe I am not righteous then.
This subject really irritates me, I remember being told to only witness to middle class believers because TWI had no use for the poor.
Poor had no money!! They were a hinderance.
We witnessed to everyone, anyone, regardless of where they lived, what they dressed like, and if they were jobless even.
No condemnation here. I try not to be judgemental and exhorted our twig/HFC to be the same way.
It irratates me that the money that went to TWI was spent so recklessly. Million dollar television camaras etc . Never ... Not a need, help out a single parent who is trying there best. You know the single mom who scrubs the LCs toilets for free twice weekly.
There were many men and women who couldn't afford a suit or a dress for a class or an event in the latter years. Truly sad. Then ridiculed for what they wore.
I remember when I first took pfal ... My jeans had rips in the knees .. No one cared!!. I was still paying of school loans at this point.
What Happened?
HELP THE PEOPLE WHO ARE HELPING THE MINISTRY ..... HELP THOSE WHO ARE TRYING TO HELP THEMSELVES
I am off my soap box now
Digi
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Zshot
Let me ask a question...
When we ABS'd, was the heart "giving to God" or "twi"?
When you think of being "good" to the household, do you think of "twi's" defination or what God's defination might be...
Shouldn't "God's money" be used to help "God's people"?
Many churches help those in there congriation in times of need with the Tithe that has been donated. And, the members of that church don't seem to have a problem with that. Of course, the church books are open for public scrutiny.
It seems to me that twi was just selfish and self serving. This seems to me, that this is/was twi policy and practice from the "top to the bottom".
Twi could have helped out if they wanted to.
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templelady
THe Mormon welfare system is supported by offerings by each ward's(congregations) "fast offerings" which stay in the ward. Once a month on a Sunday everyone fasts for one or two meals, usually breakfast or lunch, and gives the money that would have been spent on food to the fast offering. Understand no one checks up to see if you actually fast, and no one sets a dollar amount on what you give (OR IF YOU GIVE)that is up to your own conscience. Being single my offering would be actually about $5.00 a month but I give more because I remember what it is like to not have
THe fund is used to provide food if you are in need (and I mean a LOT of food meat, fruit, veggies, milk, formula, butter, Eggs THE LIST GOES ON you can select whatever you want in wHAt quantities you want and the Relief society delivers it to your home. They help with utility bills, rent payments, have an employment center at the stake level, they will help you find housing. they will help you with medical bills..the list goes on.
Tithing is also encouraged (again a matter for your own conscience) That is 10% ,again no one gives you a problem if you don't tithe,however, if you are consistently in a jam the bishopric might explain why tithing is a conmmandment of GOD and blessings often flow from that commitment. But they won't withhold aid from you if you don't tithe.
The tithes go directly to CHurch headquarters in Salt Lake. Headquarters pays for the buildings, the teaching materials, your lesson books, the hymnals, the office equipment in short eveything you need to run a church and the buildings are always very beautiful and well maintained and "well stocked"
OUr churches want for nothing.
We do not have a paid clergy, a paid anything, for that matter, until you get to the Very highest echelons of the church. And only then because their callings are full time
Everyone else volunteers their time and efforts, holds down a job, raises their kids etc. It is a good system, no one should ever feel "Lower". Callings are changed as led my GOds inspiration (my belief system not getting into a theological debate here
:)-->)
Next month I could have a new bishop who used to be the yong Men's leader. The Former Bishop could now be the ward secretary. GOd teaches us that all "callings" are of him and that no one is to esteem his calling as being "Better or worse" than another as all are necessary for the working of the body.
As for other charities, churches, and non members we are taught to be generous with all those in need.
I think my Stake president said it best when during a meeting with him the subject of my working for SAlvation Army came up. I Said "they are vey anti Mormon..."The Stake President cut in and said "But they do so much wonderful wonderful work --there will be rewards in heaven for the work they do!"
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Oakspear
Oldies & anyone else debating whether "ABS" should be used for this or that:
- Is the term "abundant sharing" ever used in the bible? Even once?
- And "ABS" is just a three character abbreviation for "abundant sharing" that we had to use on the "blue forms" (FNC for Foundational Class, INT for Intermediate, etc) - I really hate using their terminology when it isn't necessary
But that's just my opinion...the rest of you carry on!Link to comment
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Tom Strange
Those Mormons sound like they've got that part down T-Lady...
...how's come they won't let you have more than one wife anymore? (just asking, I always thought that was kind of neat)
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rascal
Amen Tom... I have told my husband on more than one occasion to consider the momrmon denomination...as I truly wish that we had another wife around here to help with the dishes .. laundry kiddoes..housework...yardwork...heck around here we could keep 3 or 4 wives busy full time...hee hee
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Tom Strange
Yeah RasCathy! and I bet there aint no cheatin' goin' on!
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templelady
The LDS church does not practice Polygamy because it is against the laws of this country.
The law against polygamy in the United States was upheld by the Supreme Court in OCTOBER, 1878
in 1890, then President Woodruff, issued a proclamation that abolished plural marriages in the Utah Territory.
The LDS church does not condone or practice polygamy on this earth. While we still believe it to be a principle of GOD, mormonism teaches obedience to civil authorities.
Those who defied President Woodruff were excommunicated. The FLDS or Self styled "Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints". Is not a part of, nor has it ever been recognized, as A part of the Church of Jesus Christ of LAtter Day Saints. Polygamists who come to the knowledge of LDS authorities are turned over to the Law.
And for all you men that think polygamy would be a "cool" thing
Please keep in mind that the laws governing polygamy, when it was still practiced within the church, Carried a hefty price tag.
FIRST your wife or other wives had to agree to the woman you picked--no agreement no new wife
SECOND each wife had to have equal, separate and comparable dwellings, furnishings, clothes necessities etc. That means that if you and your current wife have a two bedroom ranch on three acres wife number two gets a two bedroom ranch on three acres.
Even in President Young's Beehive House each wife had separate and equal quarters.
the same rules apply to all children.
And if any of you are that wealthy out there--drop me a line.....
;)-->
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oldiesman
Mo, this concept sounds so interesting... i was recently watching a Bonanza episode and the subject was polygamy...the Cartwrights got involved with this nice Mormon man and his two wives... and they loved each other like sisters...wouldn't do anything to hurt the other. What a foreign concept in today's society, isn't it?
Their welfare system sounds pretty decent, and I like the part about them asking folks to give of their time and money (if they physically can) ... I'm sure they try to discourage folks taking and taking all the time without giving back. That seems reasonable. I think that kind of a system could only work where everyone did their part and the folks administering the system are absolutely trustworthy... I was pretty much always against welfare... totally against a governmental welfare system because of the lack of accountability and trustworthiness. Thanks for the info.
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Tom Strange
well T-Lady... I'm working on it!
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insurgent
oldiesman, it seems as though helping others is the ONLY thing our money should be used for:
Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all [men], as every man had need.
Act 4:35 And laid [them] down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
1Cr 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but [that] the members should have the same care one for another.
Deu 10:18 He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment
Deu 10:19 Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
Deu 14:29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which [are] within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.
Deu 26:12 When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, [which is] the year of tithing, and hast given [it] unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled;
Deu 26:13 Then thou shalt say before the LORD thy God, I have brought away the hallowed things out of [mine] house, and also have given them unto the Levite, and unto the stranger, to the fatherless, and to the widow, according to all thy commandments which thou hast commanded me: I have not transgressed thy commandments, neither have I forgotten [them]:
Job 24:3 They [the evil] drive away the *** of the fatherless, they take the widow's ox for a pledge. (or Mrs. VPW’s house for their own?)
Job 24:4 They turn the needy out of the way: the poor of the earth hide themselves together.
Job 24:7 They cause the naked to lodge without clothing, that [they have] no covering in the cold.
Job 24:10 They cause [him] to go naked without clothing, and they take away the sheaf [from] the hungry;
Job 24:11 [Which] make oil within their walls, [and] tread [their] winepresses, and suffer thirst.
Isa 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Isa 1:23 Thy princes [are] rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.
Zec 7:10 And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.
Mal 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in [his] wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger [from his right], and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
Luk 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
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diazbro
Oakspear said:
And "ABS" is just a three character abbreviation for "abundant sharing"....I really hate using their terminology when it isn't necessary
>>
My impression is that most people use the term
"abundant sharing" to obviate the Way's hijacking of the tithing concept. I seldom enocunter anyone who thinks that ABS is some
biblically defined term or is clearly God's
will for our lives.
I do understand the dislike of wayspeak especially when its clear that someone is
hopelessly indoctrinated in it and refuses to
acknowlege it let alone eliminate it from
their vocabulary. However I don't think thats the case here relative to ABS.
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Tom Strange
yes diaz... so as not to confuse ABS with the 'normal' Christian concepts of titheing or giving...
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