Searcher, why don't you change the title to "Ex-Way Groups" or something like that? (just a suggestion) That way other folks may be able to tell you some of the things you wish to find out also (Bullinger).
When folks see a "handle" as a title of a thread topic they usually don't look in because it's usually just someone telling someone else to check their PTs. (then there are folks like me who click on everything) :D-->
I'd help if I could, but I really don't have any experience with them.
I was involved in an ex-way group for quite a few years. It was a group that was almost all ex followers of the TWI. The leadership was fired or released from TWI and started a new group. This group does things very much like TWI including the yelling and the controlling stuff. They run classes and they shun people who don't agree with them on every issue. VP worship is vital and you don't want to disagree about ANYTHING. The group started out fine, but when the classes came, then it changed back into a TWI copy.
searcher: When TWI started shedding members drastically after 1986, many of them formed up into smaller offshoot ministries. Some were near-identical TWI-clones, others branched out with new dogma.
Some of the largest remaining offshoot ministries are Christian Educational Services (CES), founded by John Lynn, John Schoenheit, and Mark Graeser, and Christian Family Fellowship (CFF), started by Wayne Clapp and John Shroyer. Vince Finnegan started another, whose name escapes me at the moment. All were former high-ups in the TWI hierarchy at one time or another.
Interesting stuff, I see I have a lot more research to do before I get a handle on this TWI business.
It surprises me however that ex members of any cult would want to get straight back in to a similar thing, did they then have such a commitment to the 'doctrine'?
My only experience in real terms, with ex culters has been with the ex- JW's, and they have a tendency to avoid anything similar to the JW cult like the plague.
There's also Christian Biblical Counsel, founded by Vince Finnegan. And a bunch of smaller ones.
Searcher, TWI is now at the stage the Jehovah's Witnesses were at in the 1920s and 30s, after Charles Russell died. At that time, the majority of people who left did so not because they no longer believed in religion, but because they disagreed with the direction taken by the organization's second president. A great number of "Ex-Watchtower Society" members at that time would very likely be participants in offshoots (many of which are still in existence).
I see where I was having difficulty, most leave the JW's now because they stop believeing in the doctrine, some because they are thrown out for 'lack of spirituality' or 'sin' (mostly smoking I hear) :D-->
Your point about Russels death makes sense now, groups DID form then.
quote: At that time, the majority of people who left did so not because they no longer believed in religion, but because they disagreed with the direction taken by the organization's second president
You are so eloquent. Those were my feelings exactly when I got involved in the ex-way group.
Many that leave TWI take with them a phenomenon called "The Way Brain". They may not join an offshoot group but part of "The Way" never leaves them. I have seen this in people that have been out for 20 years.
The foundational class ingrains something in your mind that would be a great tool for the CIA. It gets you to believe that you have all the answers and you found them all by yourself through your believing. When people leave TWI they bring that attitude with them and of course they can never be fooled again because they know all the keys to rightly dividing the word which was taught to them by TWI????
Terminology, expressions and attitudes stay the same, they just follow another or have all the answers and are happy with their supreme knowledge on their own.
"Power For Abundant Living" actually rots the mind, makes zombies of its believers and "Speaking In Tongues" is their proof of superiority above everyone.
searcher: To be fair, it wasn't all bad. You don't build a 100,000-member cult by daily disembowelings. The experience varied greatly from area to area.
The fundamental idea behind PFAL, that it might not be God's fault the Bible is misunderstood, is solid. However, Wierwille used the trust he built up to slip a few curveballs in. Since most of us weren't Th.D.s, whenever he backed up a few of his early claims logically, we weren't watching carefully enough to notice when he was just a bit off the plate on some things. It got to the point where some folks worshipped him so much that he could have thrown the ball into left field and these followers would still think it was a strike. (Hi, Mike.)
When I was involved, in the mid-80s, my area was actually a wonderful place to be. People got along, they helped each other, the local leadership took good care of us--it pretty much worked like the brochures advertised. But when new leadership brought in a wave of jackbooted legalistic "Way Corps" to run things, it quickly soured. There was none of the love of Christ in the faux-expert "reproof", no wisdom in the phony-credentialed "correction". If it were the Army instead, imagine a bunch of savvy, veteran NCOs being replaced by a bunch of head-up-the-a$$, 90-day-wonder, ROTC "butterbar" 2nd Lieutenants. You know, the kind of smarmy git who would stand in front of the enlisted barracks with his shiny new bars and scream at every private who didn't immediately salute his scrawny carcass? Demanding respect instead of commanding it, that sort of thing.
Well, those of us in our area who weren't worshipping the golden calf yet saw that what these "butterbars" were preaching was off of even what VPW had taught. So we ignored them and went up the chain of command, only to find out to our horror that all of the decent officers had been drummed out in favor of an idiot General's (Martindale) yes-men. We bailed on the ministry, but most of us didn't bail on God. It was only later that most of us found out that the corruption hadn't just started, it had just stopped being covered up as expertly.
Still, I'm one of the ones who doesn't blame God for all the hurt done, I blame the men who abused His name for their own lusts. I'm actually thankful to God for everything I learned in The Way...especially that bit about never again taking another man's word for what God really wants me to do.
Your post explains things so well I could almost be there, for, although I have never been in a cult, I have been a part of things that stated off good, then were taken over by, for want of a better phrase, power hungry a**holes.
It is a pity that so many horrible things have been done in the name of god, but then, so many wonderful things have been done in his name also.
Bad things done in the name of god are the main reason I dont believe. I will explain if I can.
Religion is based on the bible, I have read the bible many times, both from front to back (several times) and in sections, I find it confusing, contradictory and inciteful.
Please dont get me wrong, I am not 'bashing' this is just what I see, and I do have good reading comprehension.
The only reason I am saying this is that, as I see it, what I said above about the bible is why there are so many different groups and beliefs, it seems there are almost as many different 'interpritations' as there are people.
Your post explains things so well I could almost be there, for, although I have never been in a cult, I have been a part of things that stated off good, then were taken over by, for want of a better phrase, power hungry a**holes.
Bingo. Although there are those who say it didn't even start off good, that's a fair enough description.
It is a pity that so many horrible things have been done in the name of god, but then, so many wonderful things have been done in his name also.
True.
Bad things done in the name of god are the main reason I dont believe. I will explain if I can.
Religion is based on the bible, I have read the bible many times, both from front to back (several times) and in sections, I find it confusing, contradictory and inciteful.
ObligatoryNitPick: "Inciteful" isn't a word. ;)--> "Inciting" is closer.
Please dont get me wrong, I am not 'bashing' this is just what I see, and I do have good reading comprehension.
I understand. My experience was slightly different, in that I couldn't reconcile what the Church was saying with what the Bible was saying. So, if the Church couldn't keep its story straight after centuries of theological study, perhaps they were looking at it the wrong way to start with.
The only reason I am saying this is that, as I see it, what I said above about the bible is why there are so many different groups and beliefs, it seems there are almost as many different 'interpritations' as there are people.
Absolutely. Yet, if the premise of God is correct, the interpretations can't possibly all be correct. In light of that, either a) God doesn't exist after all, or b) there's only one correct belief system, which, unfortunately, no one has discovered completely. Most corrupt preachers stop as soon as they've "interpreted" themselves a way to get rich, laid, or powerful off of the flock's belief.
It seems that the problem is people.
Ok, so far so good. Except that, instead of God, what you've demonstrated is a case for not believing in PEOPLE. (rather, not believing in the religions that people create.)
If you want to read some of the other times we've gone over similar territory, do a search here for the word "pony". ;)-->
quote: ObligatoryNitPick: "Inciteful" isn't a word. "Inciting" is closer.
Not nitpicking at all, you are correct.
quote: Ok, so far so good. Except that, instead of God, what you've demonstrated is a case for not believing in PEOPLE. (rather, not believing in the religions that people create.)
True, however, I believe that all religion comes from mans awareness that he is part of nature, all the rest comes from speculation about that.
A man and a woman ‘create’ a child, so they reasoned someone/thing must have created the first man, and away they went.
And I just KNEW I had spelled interpretations wrong :D-->
searcher: That's one way of looking at it, especially if one holds the view that there was no divine contact ab initio to spark the beginnning of religion as a God-man interface.
Yet, before someone complains, further discussion along those lines is probably best left as a topic for the Doctrinal forum, in which I'd be glad to participate.
If you want to keep this thread in this forum, you can start a new one down there for the other topic. (Technically, this thread would belong in "About The Way", but you didn't know. If it gets moved, that's where you can look for it, most likely.)
Religion is based on the bible, I have read the bible many times, both from front to back (several times) and in sections, I find it confusing, contradictory and inciteful.
I could be wrong, but (imo) the main ex-way group is CES -- (Christian Educational Services). They recently changed their name to Spirit & Truth Fellowship International. Most here, myself included, still refer to them as CES.
They are international now, and also teach many things that used to be espoused by twi, yet with revisions. Other topics taught by twi, they totally dismiss, and throw out. They are a good group, and if you wish to check them out further for yourself, they operate 3 sites.
I am of the opinion that the two you would be interested in, are the latter two. Biblical Unitarian deals strictly with "trinity" issues, and Truth or Tradition deals with everything else. The CES site is mainly an announcement/bookstore type of place, though that was all they had in the beginning. The other two sites have grown from that.
I can't say that they are representative of ALL "off-shoot" groups, but perhaps this will give you a perspective. ;)-->
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Tom Strange
Searcher, why don't you change the title to "Ex-Way Groups" or something like that? (just a suggestion) That way other folks may be able to tell you some of the things you wish to find out also (Bullinger).
When folks see a "handle" as a title of a thread topic they usually don't look in because it's usually just someone telling someone else to check their PTs. (then there are folks like me who click on everything)
:D-->
I'd help if I could, but I really don't have any experience with them.
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gladtobeout
Searcher
I was involved in an ex-way group for quite a few years. It was a group that was almost all ex followers of the TWI. The leadership was fired or released from TWI and started a new group. This group does things very much like TWI including the yelling and the controlling stuff. They run classes and they shun people who don't agree with them on every issue. VP worship is vital and you don't want to disagree about ANYTHING. The group started out fine, but when the classes came, then it changed back into a TWI copy.
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Zixar
searcher: When TWI started shedding members drastically after 1986, many of them formed up into smaller offshoot ministries. Some were near-identical TWI-clones, others branched out with new dogma.
Some of the largest remaining offshoot ministries are Christian Educational Services (CES), founded by John Lynn, John Schoenheit, and Mark Graeser, and Christian Family Fellowship (CFF), started by Wayne Clapp and John Shroyer. Vince Finnegan started another, whose name escapes me at the moment. All were former high-ups in the TWI hierarchy at one time or another.
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Thank you gladtobeout and Zixar for your reply's.
Interesting stuff, I see I have a lot more research to do before I get a handle on this TWI business.
It surprises me however that ex members of any cult would want to get straight back in to a similar thing, did they then have such a commitment to the 'doctrine'?
My only experience in real terms, with ex culters has been with the ex- JW's, and they have a tendency to avoid anything similar to the JW cult like the plague.
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Raf
There's also Christian Biblical Counsel, founded by Vince Finnegan. And a bunch of smaller ones.
Searcher, TWI is now at the stage the Jehovah's Witnesses were at in the 1920s and 30s, after Charles Russell died. At that time, the majority of people who left did so not because they no longer believed in religion, but because they disagreed with the direction taken by the organization's second president. A great number of "Ex-Watchtower Society" members at that time would very likely be participants in offshoots (many of which are still in existence).
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searcher
Thank you Raf, that adds to, and clarifies.
I see where I was having difficulty, most leave the JW's now because they stop believeing in the doctrine, some because they are thrown out for 'lack of spirituality' or 'sin' (mostly smoking I hear)
:D-->
Your point about Russels death makes sense now, groups DID form then.
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gladtobeout
Raf
You are so eloquent. Those were my feelings exactly when I got involved in the ex-way group.
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OnionEater
searcher
Many that leave TWI take with them a phenomenon called "The Way Brain". They may not join an offshoot group but part of "The Way" never leaves them. I have seen this in people that have been out for 20 years.
The foundational class ingrains something in your mind that would be a great tool for the CIA. It gets you to believe that you have all the answers and you found them all by yourself through your believing. When people leave TWI they bring that attitude with them and of course they can never be fooled again because they know all the keys to rightly dividing the word which was taught to them by TWI????
Terminology, expressions and attitudes stay the same, they just follow another or have all the answers and are happy with their supreme knowledge on their own.
"Power For Abundant Living" actually rots the mind, makes zombies of its believers and "Speaking In Tongues" is their proof of superiority above everyone.
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searcher
Thank You OnionEater,
Sounds frightful.
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Zixar
searcher: To be fair, it wasn't all bad. You don't build a 100,000-member cult by daily disembowelings. The experience varied greatly from area to area.
The fundamental idea behind PFAL, that it might not be God's fault the Bible is misunderstood, is solid. However, Wierwille used the trust he built up to slip a few curveballs in. Since most of us weren't Th.D.s, whenever he backed up a few of his early claims logically, we weren't watching carefully enough to notice when he was just a bit off the plate on some things. It got to the point where some folks worshipped him so much that he could have thrown the ball into left field and these followers would still think it was a strike. (Hi, Mike.)
When I was involved, in the mid-80s, my area was actually a wonderful place to be. People got along, they helped each other, the local leadership took good care of us--it pretty much worked like the brochures advertised. But when new leadership brought in a wave of jackbooted legalistic "Way Corps" to run things, it quickly soured. There was none of the love of Christ in the faux-expert "reproof", no wisdom in the phony-credentialed "correction". If it were the Army instead, imagine a bunch of savvy, veteran NCOs being replaced by a bunch of head-up-the-a$$, 90-day-wonder, ROTC "butterbar" 2nd Lieutenants. You know, the kind of smarmy git who would stand in front of the enlisted barracks with his shiny new bars and scream at every private who didn't immediately salute his scrawny carcass? Demanding respect instead of commanding it, that sort of thing.
Well, those of us in our area who weren't worshipping the golden calf yet saw that what these "butterbars" were preaching was off of even what VPW had taught. So we ignored them and went up the chain of command, only to find out to our horror that all of the decent officers had been drummed out in favor of an idiot General's (Martindale) yes-men. We bailed on the ministry, but most of us didn't bail on God. It was only later that most of us found out that the corruption hadn't just started, it had just stopped being covered up as expertly.
Still, I'm one of the ones who doesn't blame God for all the hurt done, I blame the men who abused His name for their own lusts. I'm actually thankful to God for everything I learned in The Way...especially that bit about never again taking another man's word for what God really wants me to do.
Hope that helps clarify things a bit,
Zixar
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oldiesman
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searcher
Thank You Zixar,
Your post explains things so well I could almost be there, for, although I have never been in a cult, I have been a part of things that stated off good, then were taken over by, for want of a better phrase, power hungry a**holes.
It is a pity that so many horrible things have been done in the name of god, but then, so many wonderful things have been done in his name also.
Bad things done in the name of god are the main reason I dont believe. I will explain if I can.
Religion is based on the bible, I have read the bible many times, both from front to back (several times) and in sections, I find it confusing, contradictory and inciteful.
Please dont get me wrong, I am not 'bashing' this is just what I see, and I do have good reading comprehension.
The only reason I am saying this is that, as I see it, what I said above about the bible is why there are so many different groups and beliefs, it seems there are almost as many different 'interpritations' as there are people.
It seems that the problem is people.
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lindyhopper
Now you've gone and done it, searcher. You've offended everyone. Now we're all to blame.
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imbus
Xizer,
Mister you put TWI in an analogy that really speaks. My God, Well done sir...Well done.
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Zixar
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searcher
Lindyhopper,
I can offend people just by looking at them
:D--> j/k
I take it you like swing music then?
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searcher
Zixar,
Not nitpicking at all, you are correct.
True, however, I believe that all religion comes from mans awareness that he is part of nature, all the rest comes from speculation about that.
A man and a woman ‘create’ a child, so they reasoned someone/thing must have created the first man, and away they went.
And I just KNEW I had spelled interpretations wrong
:D-->
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Zixar
searcher: That's one way of looking at it, especially if one holds the view that there was no divine contact ab initio to spark the beginnning of religion as a God-man interface.
Yet, before someone complains, further discussion along those lines is probably best left as a topic for the Doctrinal forum, in which I'd be glad to participate.
If you want to keep this thread in this forum, you can start a new one down there for the other topic. (Technically, this thread would belong in "About The Way", but you didn't know. If it gets moved, that's where you can look for it, most likely.)
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searcher
Zixar,
I agree, I will start a topic in doctrinal, we can talk there.
Better idea, could a mod please move this thread to doctrinal to preserve continuity? The origional question seems to have been answered now.
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imbus
I like it right where it's at. But that is just my opinion.
;)-->
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dmiller
I could be wrong, but (imo) the main ex-way group is CES -- (Christian Educational Services). They recently changed their name to Spirit & Truth Fellowship International. Most here, myself included, still refer to them as CES.
They are international now, and also teach many things that used to be espoused by twi, yet with revisions. Other topics taught by twi, they totally dismiss, and throw out. They are a good group, and if you wish to check them out further for yourself, they operate 3 sites.
www.cesonline.org
www.biblicalunitarian.com
www.truthortradition.com
I am of the opinion that the two you would be interested in, are the latter two. Biblical Unitarian deals strictly with "trinity" issues, and Truth or Tradition deals with everything else. The CES site is mainly an announcement/bookstore type of place, though that was all they had in the beginning. The other two sites have grown from that.
I can't say that they are representative of ALL "off-shoot" groups, but perhaps this will give you a perspective.
;)-->
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TOMMYZ
Don't forget the "Geerite" groups. They fel the are the ones staying faithful while New Knoxville lost it.
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searcher
Zixar,
“Pony”
Yes, it seems the subject has been discussed to death, (but not died).
Conclusion (mine)
State “I believe” and expect to be left in peace with that.
Or
State “I do not believe” and expect to be left in peace with that.
That seems to about cover it I think.
Now, about these Sea Monkeys…………………….
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Bluzeman
Hey now! You aren't allowed to bash our Amazing Sea Monkey Cult!
Rick
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