..when one has a family member or aquaintance that participated in the inner circle not only as an *enlightened* one themselves....but a *recruiter* as well...I understand how it would be easy to tend to want to paint ALL women with the same brush...
However....even the ones who bought into the *it`s an honor to serve the mog* twisting...were victims.
It isn`t a level playing field.... your minister/counceler/doctor enjoys a position of trust and respect...one lowers personal barriers and is vulnerable.
Shoot even at the plant I work at supervisors/people in authority are never allowed to date others in the plant for that simple reason.....How much more so ...tha minister you trust with your spiritual health and well being.
You gotta be kidding what the hey.....have you READ any of the accounts of the women that were coerced into participation in the *inner circle* ???
The pressure the twisting of scripture regarding their responsibility...the consequences for non compliance????
There is SO much that is wrong with this on so many levels .... and to view it with the same eye of someone *sleeping their way to the top*....is disturbing.
Sure....some women did it for the reasons mentioned.... but why paint all of the hundreds of women that were coerced/drugged/influenced into participation.....by the clergy they trusted with their lives?
What the hey, you have a mighty scewered perception of women.
Even the women who want/need the validation of sleeping with the mog for the reasons mentioned....should have been gently but firmly refused.
It is a character issue plain and simple.
Men of God at all times, ought to behave with honor and integrety and adhere to the highest moral standards... able to and respond with integrety and character at ALL times.....or they simply are not Men of God period....just self centered people masquerading as and pretending to be ministers.
She teaches at Yale University on the subject of professional ethics. She obviously is well thought of in the professional community...
Also, would VPW, LCM or others that coerced women into sex have been successful if they were not in the position of power and authority they were? The answer is quite obvious. Neither was model material and the threat of job loss and being m&a'd was a prime factor in the success of the sexual coersion.
For the rest of us, the only way we bedded anyone was the the time tested method of chocolates,flowers, and sheer dumb luck....
Exactly right. VPW and LCM don't fit into the descriptions being criticized for two reasons:
1. Both were married. Sexual contact with followers of TWI was ALWAYS 100% wrong for them, period, end of story.
2. TWI was not set up as "congregations" per se. VPW and LCM were leadership over all, and there was no "other congregation" to turn to (even if they WERE single) to find someone who could consent (under Liberty's framework). Since they were both married, this shouldn't even apply anyway.
I agree with the view that there were some "inner circle" people (not innocent); starry-eyed worshippers (should have known better, but still victims) and outright no argument people who were preyed upon by VPW, LCM and other leadership.
If oldiesman and WTH really agree with what I've said, then they agree that the buck stops with the clergy and that they should not have done what they did, period, end of story, regardless of whether the others involved were helpless victims or paid escorts.
From the government's point of view,are all ministers "men of God"?...If a minister abuses a member of the "flock",and it becomes a civil matter,what basis would be used to determine if the victim's civil rights were violated?....And how would they determine if the minister was legally liable?..The government does not set moral ethical codes for a clergyman as far as I know,his particular religion does...
Would the minister have to be in violation of his own denominational code of ethics to be held liable?....What if he was a minister in a "free and open sex" church,and his behaviour was within the rules of his particular church?....What would his violation be that would hold him legally responsible?
I'm fairly sure the church's code of ethics would have no bearing on a case other than to be used to sway a jury. ("He violated his own church rules!")
No, I think that to even consider a case, one would have to approach it like the Parkers. Focus on non-religious issues such as a minister's position as a counselor, etc. There was a time when
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rascal
..when one has a family member or aquaintance that participated in the inner circle not only as an *enlightened* one themselves....but a *recruiter* as well...I understand how it would be easy to tend to want to paint ALL women with the same brush...
However....even the ones who bought into the *it`s an honor to serve the mog* twisting...were victims.
It isn`t a level playing field.... your minister/counceler/doctor enjoys a position of trust and respect...one lowers personal barriers and is vulnerable.
Shoot even at the plant I work at supervisors/people in authority are never allowed to date others in the plant for that simple reason.....How much more so ...tha minister you trust with your spiritual health and well being.
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rascal
You gotta be kidding what the hey.....have you READ any of the accounts of the women that were coerced into participation in the *inner circle* ???
The pressure the twisting of scripture regarding their responsibility...the consequences for non compliance????
There is SO much that is wrong with this on so many levels .... and to view it with the same eye of someone *sleeping their way to the top*....is disturbing.
Sure....some women did it for the reasons mentioned.... but why paint all of the hundreds of women that were coerced/drugged/influenced into participation.....by the clergy they trusted with their lives?
What the hey, you have a mighty scewered perception of women.
Even the women who want/need the validation of sleeping with the mog for the reasons mentioned....should have been gently but firmly refused.
It is a character issue plain and simple.
Men of God at all times, ought to behave with honor and integrety and adhere to the highest moral standards... able to and respond with integrety and character at ALL times.....or they simply are not Men of God period....just self centered people masquerading as and pretending to be ministers.
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pjroberge
A little side note about Rev. Patricia Liberty
She teaches at Yale University on the subject of professional ethics. She obviously is well thought of in the professional community...
Also, would VPW, LCM or others that coerced women into sex have been successful if they were not in the position of power and authority they were? The answer is quite obvious. Neither was model material and the threat of job loss and being m&a'd was a prime factor in the success of the sexual coersion.
For the rest of us, the only way we bedded anyone was the the time tested method of chocolates,flowers, and sheer dumb luck....
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Raf
Pat,
Exactly right. VPW and LCM don't fit into the descriptions being criticized for two reasons:
1. Both were married. Sexual contact with followers of TWI was ALWAYS 100% wrong for them, period, end of story.
2. TWI was not set up as "congregations" per se. VPW and LCM were leadership over all, and there was no "other congregation" to turn to (even if they WERE single) to find someone who could consent (under Liberty's framework). Since they were both married, this shouldn't even apply anyway.
I agree with the view that there were some "inner circle" people (not innocent); starry-eyed worshippers (should have known better, but still victims) and outright no argument people who were preyed upon by VPW, LCM and other leadership.
If oldiesman and WTH really agree with what I've said, then they agree that the buck stops with the clergy and that they should not have done what they did, period, end of story, regardless of whether the others involved were helpless victims or paid escorts.
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Cynic
It would, of course, take something other than that for Ms. Liberty to appear to have justification for her excessive, categorical assertions.
Following are links to some information about a living academic example of one problem with appeals to the authority of Ivy League ethicists:
Peter Singer
Students Protest Princeton Professor Who Advocates Infanticide
Pro-infanticide prof awarded ethics prize
A professor of infanticide at Princeton
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excathedra
i see more than one issue here
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simonzelotes
From the government's point of view,are all ministers "men of God"?...If a minister abuses a member of the "flock",and it becomes a civil matter,what basis would be used to determine if the victim's civil rights were violated?....And how would they determine if the minister was legally liable?..The government does not set moral ethical codes for a clergyman as far as I know,his particular religion does...
Would the minister have to be in violation of his own denominational code of ethics to be held liable?....What if he was a minister in a "free and open sex" church,and his behaviour was within the rules of his particular church?....What would his violation be that would hold him legally responsible?
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JustThinking
Exy,
Go on.
JT
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JustThinking
Simon,
I'm fairly sure the church's code of ethics would have no bearing on a case other than to be used to sway a jury. ("He violated his own church rules!")
No, I think that to even consider a case, one would have to approach it like the Parkers. Focus on non-religious issues such as a minister's position as a counselor, etc. There was a time when
JT
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excathedra
not ignoring you JT just want to have the thought / time to answer
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JustThinking
No worries mate. :-)
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