quote:On every principle he claimed to be fighting for: the domain name, the trademark infringement, the rights to the term "The Way," the ability to use "The Way of Christ" as a domain name and as a ministry name, Pat got spanked.
1. I was not fighting for the right to use the way of christ. I changed the name 4 years ago and it is now known by it's present name which means the same thing.
2. TWI had 4 new trademarks for specifically "The Way International" so in lite of that change there was no reason to keep the domain name I was getting rid of anyway
3. As far as being able to use the way, it has been well established that trademark of TWI's is unenforceable because it is generic.The information learned from this experience will be made available for free to every church that I find out about that TWI bothers about the way trademark.
4. Again, you wrongly assumed TWI really wanted only the domain name which was the reason for the lawsuit. If you were right (which you are not), TWI should have gone to the domain name arbitration board where the issue would have been settled months ago at about 1/50th the cost.
5. TWI wanted injunctive relief or in other terms to shut down the two websites that were "infringing" which they were not able to do.That was the real reason for the lawsuit. Your erroneous theory of a domain name being the issue would have had the court refer the issue to the arbitration board.
quote:He wouldn't have been able to pay them anyway, and TWI knew that. So TWI did the next best thing: they kept their costs to a minimum.
TWI knew my finances going into this and still insisted on keeping their costs at a minimum of @$50,000.00 Some minimum....
TWI knew your finances going into this, so going into this they had to want to pursue the course that cost them the least amount of money. TWI could afford $50,000. Could you afford what you spent? What percentage of TWI's income is $50,000? What percentage of your income did you spend? TWI chose the option that cost them the least amount of money, and got everything they wanted out of it, your protestations to the contrary. You got spanked, Pat. Hate to break it to you.
You yourself said when you file these things, you put in more than you actually want. Do you really think they expected to shut down ex-cultworld? I don't. Otherwise they'd have gone after Paw and after me. They went after you because you used the name. You gave them the name back, and the legal problems went away...
Hey wait a minute: Wasn't that what I advised you to do in the friggin first place?
quote:1. I was not fighting for the right to use the way of christ. I changed the name 4 years ago and it is now known by it's present name which means the same thing.
You were fighting for the right to use "The Way." Maybe you did abandon "The Way of Christ," but not in principle. You abandoned it to get rid of legal trouble. On the legal issue at stake, which includes whether using that name was a trademark violation, you caved. You can't pick up that fight again. It's over.
Advantage: TWI
quote:2. TWI had 4 new trademarks for specifically "The Way International" so in lite of that change there was no reason to keep the domain name I was getting rid of anyway.
You weren't "getting rid of it." You were trying to sell it, for a profit. $100,000. [Note: I was mistaken. See correction in my next post] TWI paid half that to their lawyers, and NONE of it to you. You get NOTHING for the site. TWI gets the domain name.
Advantage, TWI.
quote:3. As far as being able to use the way, it has been well established that trademark of TWI's is unenforceable because it is generic.The information learned from this experience will be made available for free to every church that I find out about that TWI bothers about the way trademark.
It has not been established that the trademark is unenforceable. In two lawsuits, if anything has been established, it's that TWI can and will enforce its trademark and it will win. It's true that you can print a Bible with the words "The Way" on it. TWI has never contested this. They don't consider it a trademark infringement, and rightly so. YOU keep bringing it up, which tells me that YOU see no difference there, but TWI does. You guys keep talking about the number of times "the way" shows up on Web sites, as if any use of the words themselves are a trademark violation. That's a total straw man argument. TWI has never made any such claim. When you offer this valuable information to any church that requests it, please include the valuable information that when TWIM's lawyers tried to challenge it, they got spanked, and so did you.
Advantage: TWI.
quote:4. Again, you wrongly assumed TWI really wanted only the domain name which was the reason for the lawsuit. If you were right (which you are not), TWI should have gone to the domain name arbitration board where the issue would have been settled months ago at about 1/50th the cost.
If I were right, which I was, TWI would have dropped the case as soon as you surrendered the domain name. You did, and they did.
Advantage: TWI
quote:5. TWI wanted injunctive relief or in other terms to shut down the two websites that were "infringing" which they were not able to do.That was the real reason for the lawsuit. Your erroneous theory of a domain name being the issue would have had the court refer the issue to the arbitration board.
The sites that were infringing were thewayinternational.com, which infringed directly by using the successfully defended mark, and excultworld.com. which benefitted from your use of the successfully defended mark (pathofchrist or any other site you have would fall under the same description). Bottom line: your use of thewayinternational.com no longer being an issue, there is no infringement at any other one of your sites, so the issue is moot.
Advantage: TWI
The Score: Five to Nothing.
Oh, you didn't have to pay TWI's legal fees. That's one for you.
But if that counts, the fact that they didn't have to pay yours has to count for them.
I made a serious factual error in my previous post, but rather than go back and correct it, I want to note it here:
quote:2. TWI had 4 new trademarks for specifically "The Way International" so in lite of that change there was no reason to keep the domain name I was getting rid of anyway.
You weren't "getting rid of it." You were trying to sell it, for a profit. $15,000. TWI would rather have paid its lawyers than pay you one dime. You did not get one dime. TWI still gets the domain name.
Advantage, TWI (or, at best, a tie if you consider that they spent more to get the site than they would have if they just bought it from you.
3. As far as being able to use the way, it has been well established that trademark of TWI's is unenforceable because it is generic.The information learned from this experience will be made available for free to every church that I find out about that TWI bothers about the way trademark.
Do you bother to read the documents you post? If so, you apparently fail to comprehend them.
The final judgment of the U. S. District Court in the TWIM v. TWI case is posted on your site, as exhibit 1 of the settlement agreement. Some quotes from it follow.
quote:
2. This Court entered its Memorandum Order dated June 23, 2004, wherein:
(a) the Court found it highly unlikely that TWIM would prevail on the merits of its claims that TWI’s marks were generic, that the marks were fraudulently obtained, or that the marks had been abandoned;
4 This Court finds that TWIM has used the name “The Way International Ministries, Inc.” in a trademark/service mark manner; that said use is confusingly similar to TWI’s name and marks THE WAY INTERNATIONAL and THE WAY; and that TWIM’s use of its name infringes each of these marks
Rather than it having "been well established that [THE WAY] trademark of TWI's is unenforceable because it is generic," the U. S. District Court found it highly unlikely that a party making such a claim would prevail.
You weren't "getting rid of it [the domain name]." You were trying to sell it, for a profit. $15,000. TWI would rather have paid its lawyers than pay you one dime. You did not get one dime. TWI still gets the domain name.
Advantage, TWI (or, at best, a tie if you consider that they spent more to get the site than they would have if they just bought it from you.
TWI would have been foolish to offer to buy the domain from Pat, even if it would have saved some money. The reason is that an offer by them to buy it would be tacit acceptance of his claim that his use of the domain was not an infringement of TWI's trademarks. An offer to buy the domain would invite similar attempts at extortion (that's really what this boils down to) and possibly make it harder for TWI to defend its trademark rights in the future. The cheapest way to deal with the problem was to spend more money up front, in order to head off problems (and expense) later on.
I should add that, if Pat had made an early offer (as I suggested) to settle with TWI for his actual expenses in acquiring and holding the domain, and perhaps a small amount for his trouble, TWI probably would have agreed, if the agreement also included Pat's promise not to use "the way" or "the way international" in way that infringed on TWI's claimed trademark rights. That would be different than an offer by TWI to buy the domain name.
I'm glad this confrontation cost you no more than your legal fees. I wish it had not even cost you that. You and I had a strong disagreement over your course of action in this whole mess, and we seem to disagree even on the outcome.
But let's look at the next step now: you have time, energy and resources that you can now place on getting the truth out, rather than on this quest. I hope you continue to use your web sites to expose TWI for the petty, vindictive, wannabe cult that it is.
quote:unenforceable because it is generic," the U. S. District Court found it highly unlikely that a party making such a claim would prevail.
The elected judge who is not a lawyer made that ruling without reviewing the evidence. There was an evidentiary hearing scheduled in a few weeks. 6 trademark attorneys I consulted with said the way was unenforceable because it was invalid/generic.
You may want to ponder why TWI has just registered 4 new trademarks for "The Way International". Answer as stated in TWI's pleadings: the combination of generic terms into a new trademark makes a non generic mark.
quote:TWI never sought to shut down your websites. TWI's disputes with you have never been about anything but your infringement of their trademarks.
Yes they were.That is why they went through great trouble to try to build a case against the websites and asked for injunctions against the websites.
Again, the domain name was not the main issue. Why are you so thick headed about that. The domain name arbitration board would have resolved the issue for under $1000.00 if that was the case. Are you saying that 4 lawyers were too stupid to go the cheapest route?
quote: sell it, for a profit
The sale was a joke as most people understood except those that took twi's slant on it.
quote:I hope you continue to use your web sites to expose TWI for the petty, vindictive, wannabe cult that it is.
That's what the new websites are for. By the way, you may consider the fact that despite a huge onslaught of paperwork and over 40 filings with the court, TWI only got the domain name when they politely asked me for it. They were not the ones who decided, I decided.
Do you just make this stuff up on the fly? Your ignorance (or deceit, if that’s what it is) is astounding! Judge Gilbert is a United States District Court Judge for the Southern District of Illinois. U. S. District Court Judges are not elected. They are all appointed by the President and approved by the Senate. They are all lawyers, including Judge Gilbert. You can read about his education and professional career HERE.
quote:You may want to ponder why TWI has just registered 4 new trademarks for "The Way International". Answer as stated in TWI's pleadings: the combination of generic terms into a new trademark makes a non generic mark.
Are you really that devoid of understanding? First, that’s not what TWI said. Second, the remotely similar statement that you butchered in no way suggests that THE WAY or any other TWI trademark is generic. Third... Oh, forget it! I'm not going to teach basic college English, with a smattering of logic, here.
quote: Originally posted by pjroberge:
quote: Originally posted by Long Gone:
TWI never sought to shut down your websites. TWI's disputes with you have never been about anything but your infringement of their trademarks.
Yes they were.
No, Pat, they weren’t. The moment you agreed to stop infringing on TWI’s trademarks, the whole thing went away. TWI has not sought to shut down excultworld.com, twisucks.com, or any of your other domains/websites that don’t use a TWI mark in the name or domain name. You are, and always have been, free to operate those sites. All you have to do is to avoid infringing on TWI's marks and they'll leave you alone, just as they have left Pawtucket and Raf alone.
What did you get out of this whole thing again, Pat? The fact that you weren't forced to shut down your web sites? Are you sure that TWI's main motive was to shut you down, or were they just throwing that bit into the mix, given the fact that they were already in a fight with you anyways? What is so particularly offensive about your Anti-Way site, that TWI would seek to shut it down, but leave sites like Pawtucket's and Raphael's unmolested?
"You guys keep talking about the number of times "the way" shows up on Web sites, as if any use of the words themselves are a trademark violation. That's a total straw man argument. TWI has never made any such claim"
Why is that a "straw man", Raphael? I'm specifically referring to the many Christian ministries/groups with the words, "The Way" in their titles/names. Why was Pat Rob*rge's use of "The Way" in his "The Way of Christ" site a violation of their trademark, but not similar usage by other groups? I still highly suspect that, were TWI to attempt to bully some other Christian group/ministry into dropping its use of the words, "The Way" in their titles, it would not be able to make it stick in a court of law. Any common sense thinking person (even a Judge---but most certainly, a jury) would have to conclude that "The Way" is JUST TOO GENERIC a term to remain the exclusive domain of a single church or denomination. But TWI isn't going after any other groups with just, "The Way" in their names, because they know (I'm sure their lawyers have advised them) that they could possibly loose that mark in a ....in' contest against the wrong 800 pound gorilla. They know that someone like Pat hasn't the financial resources to launch a sustained and successful fight against them in such a dispute. But isn't there a church somewhere called, "THE WAY OF CHRIST United Methodist Church", or something similar? Is TWI going after them? I doubt it.
The reason why TWIM lost it's suit is because they used the words, "The Way International" in their title. That one additional word, "International", was what killed their case. As odeous as I find TWI, I would have to agree that TWIM was violating their trademark.
quote:The reason why TWIM lost it's suit is because they used the words
Actually, they didn't lose the case just getting a restraining order. They decided to back out at that time because their name did include International I would suspect.
Long Gone: Your venomous rhetoric again leaves me wondering what your stake in this is, and why you are virtually silent on this board until I post about the lawsuit. You make a big deal out of my statement about the Judge not being a lawyer which I had been told and should have verified myself. Point well taken. However, the judge did prematurely come to a decision before having an evidentiary hearing on the matter to weigh the evidence. That was a mistake.
As far as legal precedent in my case, TWI used this case in their pleadings. I also pointed out to TWI's attorneys that this was not a full blown decision after a trial, but was for a restraining order. Further, most citations for court purposes are of appellate decisions and the ones that carry real weight are the appellate decisions from the same circuit, as any first year law student knows. TWI apparently lacked any "victories" in court over their trademarks as I know of 3 cases where they lost.
Oh, by the way, why did TWI feel the need to file for 4 new trademarks for "the way international" if their trademark "The Way" was not generic and was defendable? Did they just want to add to their collection of 128 other trademarks?
Roberge has always been of the contention that TWI's trademark "The Way" has been invalid and unenforceable due to it being public domain. Whether TWI likes it or not, they are not the owners of the mark. The Christian church as a whole are the rightful owners with common law trademark rights. TWI used the legal process to try to obscure this reality, but TWI only has the same right as any other church group to the use of the mark.
B. TWI's Mark "The Way" is Generic in A Religious ContextAnd "The Way" Is Also a Generic Term in Society
A search of trademarks with the search term "The Way" yielded 3055 trademarks incorporating TWI's "mark." For TWI to represent to the court that their trademark "The Way" is famous or unique or any other description is beyond the truth of it being generic, and is not zealous representation of a client, but rather is misrepresentation.
A generic term is the genus or basis of a group of marks, and "The Way " is that genus. The term "The Way" is generic in religious circles, because it is the central theme or common denominator in the name of over 400 churches, 2700 religious books and over 100 websites. TWI has absolutely no way to defend against this very overwhelming reality. The Way is also a generic term in society as evidenced by so many trademarks.
Whether TWI's mark was generic at the time of the The Way International v. King's Way Center in 1984, it certainly is now twenty years later. There has been a resurgence / revival of church beliefs going back to earlier biblical roots. In earlier times, followers of Jesus Christ were called followers of The Way before they were known as Christians. This is even acknowledged by TWI in their court pleadings.
"To allow trademark protection for generic terms, i.e., names which describe the genus of goods being sold, even when these have become identified with a first user, would grant the owner of the mark a monopoly, since a competitor could not describe his goods as what they are."
CES PUBLISHING CORP., v. ST. REGIS PUBLICATIONS, 531 F.2d 11; 1975
"A "generic" term is "one that refers... to the genus of which the particular product [or service is a specie". McGregor-Doniger, Inc. v. Drizzle, Inc., supra, at 599 F.2d 1131"
R*berge has always been of the contention that TWI's trademark "The Way" has been invalid and unenforceable due to it being public domain. Whether TWI likes it or not, they are not the owners of the mark. The Christian church as a whole are the rightful owners with common law trademark rights. TWI used the legal process to try to obscure this reality, but TWI only has the same right as any other church group to the use of the mark.
B. TWI's Mark "The Way" is Generic in A Religious Context
And "The Way" Is Also a Generic Term in Society
A search of trademarks with the search term "The Way" yielded 3055 trademarks incorporating TWI's "mark." For TWI to represent to the court that their trademark "The Way" is famous or unique or any other description is beyond the truth of it being generic, and is not zealous representation of a client, but rather is misrepresentation.
A generic term is the genus or basis of a group of marks, and "The Way " is that genus. The term "The Way" is generic in religious circles, because it is the central theme or common denominator in the name of over 400 churches, 2700 religious books and over 100 websites. TWI has absolutely no way to defend against this very overwhelming reality. The Way is also a generic term in society as evidenced by so many trademarks.
Whether TWI's mark was generic at the time of the The Way International v. King's Way Center in 1984, it certainly is now twenty years later. There has been a resurgence / revival of church beliefs going back to earlier biblical roots. In earlier times, followers of Jesus Christ were called followers of The Way before they were known as Christians. This is even acknowledged by TWI in their court pleadings.
"To allow trademark protection for generic terms, i.e., names which describe the genus of goods being sold, even when these have become identified with a first user, would grant the owner of the mark a monopoly, since a competitor could not describe his goods as what they are."
CES PUBLISHING CORP., v. ST. REGIS PUBLICATIONS, 531 F.2d 11; 1975
"A "generic" term is "one that refers... to the genus of which the particular product [or service is a specie". McGregor-Doniger, Inc. v. Drizzle, Inc., supra, at 599 F.2d 1131"
Long Gone: Your venomous rhetoric again leaves me wondering what your stake in this is, and why you are virtually silent on this board until I post about the lawsuit.
Venomous rhetoric? Hardly.
I have no stake in this or anything else related to TWI. I don’t care about TWI one way or another. I didn’t care about TWI, per se, when I first discovered Waydale. I was simply trying to gather some information so that I could help someone I do care about. I’ve hung around because I like some of the people here and enjoy discussing some of the topics that come up (mostly the political ones these days). If you’ll take a look at the political forum, you’ll see that I’ve been far from “virtually silent on this board.” My interest, such as it is, in the TWI legal matters stems from my general interest in legal, governmental, and political matters, not from any particular interest in any of the parties to the disputes.
quote:You make a big deal out of my statement about the Judge not being a lawyer which I had been told and should have verified myself.
Pat, I think it’s inexcusable for any purportedly informed, responsible adult citizen of the United States not to know that U.S. District Court judges are all lawyers and are all appointed by the President, not elected. It’s just flat out appalling for someone pretending to speak competently about matters of federal law and cases before U.S. District Courts to not know such basic information and, even worse, to spout off contrary, false information that uninformed readers might believe.
quote:However, the judge did prematurely come to a decision before having an evidentiary hearing on the matter to weigh the evidence. That was a mistake.
You’re being more than a little presumptuous there, Pat. You don’t know what you’re talking about.
quote:Supreme Court justices and court of appeals and district judges are appointed to office by the President of the United States, with the approval of the U.S. Senate. Presidents most often appoint judges who are members, or at least generally supportive, of their political party, but that doesn’t mean that judges are given appointments solely for partisan reasons. The professional qualifications of prospective federal judges are closely evaluated by the Department of Justice, which consults with others, such as lawyers who can evaluate the prospect’s abilities. The Senate Judiciary Committee undertakes a separate examination of the nominees. Magistrate judges and bankruptcy judges are not appointed by the President or subject to Congress’s approval. The court of appeals in each circuit appoints bankruptcy judges for fourteen-year terms. District courts appoint magistrate judges for eight-year terms.
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pjroberge
1. I was not fighting for the right to use the way of christ. I changed the name 4 years ago and it is now known by it's present name which means the same thing.
2. TWI had 4 new trademarks for specifically "The Way International" so in lite of that change there was no reason to keep the domain name I was getting rid of anyway
3. As far as being able to use the way, it has been well established that trademark of TWI's is unenforceable because it is generic.The information learned from this experience will be made available for free to every church that I find out about that TWI bothers about the way trademark.
4. Again, you wrongly assumed TWI really wanted only the domain name which was the reason for the lawsuit. If you were right (which you are not), TWI should have gone to the domain name arbitration board where the issue would have been settled months ago at about 1/50th the cost.
5. TWI wanted injunctive relief or in other terms to shut down the two websites that were "infringing" which they were not able to do.That was the real reason for the lawsuit. Your erroneous theory of a domain name being the issue would have had the court refer the issue to the arbitration board.
TWI knew my finances going into this and still insisted on keeping their costs at a minimum of @$50,000.00 Some minimum....Link to comment
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Raf
You
got
spanked.
TWI knew your finances going into this, so going into this they had to want to pursue the course that cost them the least amount of money. TWI could afford $50,000. Could you afford what you spent? What percentage of TWI's income is $50,000? What percentage of your income did you spend? TWI chose the option that cost them the least amount of money, and got everything they wanted out of it, your protestations to the contrary. You got spanked, Pat. Hate to break it to you.
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pjroberge
I didn't spend @$50,000.00 to have virtually nothing to show for it....
And TWI wasn't able to shut down the two websites
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Raf
Nothing to show for it...
except for everything they wanted.
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pjroberge
TWI didn't shut down the two websites, the reason for bringing the action in Federal Court instead of the arbitration board.
Believe what you want. You made up your mind without considering all the facts first...
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Raf
You yourself said when you file these things, you put in more than you actually want. Do you really think they expected to shut down ex-cultworld? I don't. Otherwise they'd have gone after Paw and after me. They went after you because you used the name. You gave them the name back, and the legal problems went away...
Hey wait a minute: Wasn't that what I advised you to do in the friggin first place?
You got spanked.
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Raf
Let's go point for point on this:
You were fighting for the right to use "The Way." Maybe you did abandon "The Way of Christ," but not in principle. You abandoned it to get rid of legal trouble. On the legal issue at stake, which includes whether using that name was a trademark violation, you caved. You can't pick up that fight again. It's over.
Advantage: TWI
You weren't "getting rid of it." You were trying to sell it, for a profit. $100,000. [Note: I was mistaken. See correction in my next post] TWI paid half that to their lawyers, and NONE of it to you. You get NOTHING for the site. TWI gets the domain name.
Advantage, TWI.
It has not been established that the trademark is unenforceable. In two lawsuits, if anything has been established, it's that TWI can and will enforce its trademark and it will win. It's true that you can print a Bible with the words "The Way" on it. TWI has never contested this. They don't consider it a trademark infringement, and rightly so. YOU keep bringing it up, which tells me that YOU see no difference there, but TWI does. You guys keep talking about the number of times "the way" shows up on Web sites, as if any use of the words themselves are a trademark violation. That's a total straw man argument. TWI has never made any such claim. When you offer this valuable information to any church that requests it, please include the valuable information that when TWIM's lawyers tried to challenge it, they got spanked, and so did you.
Advantage: TWI.
If I were right, which I was, TWI would have dropped the case as soon as you surrendered the domain name. You did, and they did.
Advantage: TWI
The sites that were infringing were thewayinternational.com, which infringed directly by using the successfully defended mark, and excultworld.com. which benefitted from your use of the successfully defended mark (pathofchrist or any other site you have would fall under the same description). Bottom line: your use of thewayinternational.com no longer being an issue, there is no infringement at any other one of your sites, so the issue is moot.
Advantage: TWI
The Score: Five to Nothing.
Oh, you didn't have to pay TWI's legal fees. That's one for you.
But if that counts, the fact that they didn't have to pay yours has to count for them.
6-1.
Advantage: TWI.
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Steve!
Well, Pat DID get some courtroom and other legal experience out of this.
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Raf
I made a serious factual error in my previous post, but rather than go back and correct it, I want to note it here:
You weren't "getting rid of it." You were trying to sell it, for a profit. $15,000. TWI would rather have paid its lawyers than pay you one dime. You did not get one dime. TWI still gets the domain name.
Advantage, TWI (or, at best, a tie if you consider that they spent more to get the site than they would have if they just bought it from you.
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LG
The final judgment of the U. S. District Court in the TWIM v. TWI case is posted on your site, as exhibit 1 of the settlement agreement. Some quotes from it follow.
Rather than it having "been well established that [THE WAY] trademark of TWI's is unenforceable because it is generic," the U. S. District Court found it highly unlikely that a party making such a claim would prevail.
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LG
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LG
I should add that, if Pat had made an early offer (as I suggested) to settle with TWI for his actual expenses in acquiring and holding the domain, and perhaps a small amount for his trouble, TWI probably would have agreed, if the agreement also included Pat's promise not to use "the way" or "the way international" in way that infringed on TWI's claimed trademark rights. That would be different than an offer by TWI to buy the domain name.
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Raf
LG,
I believe you and I made the same suggestion.
Pat,
I'm glad this confrontation cost you no more than your legal fees. I wish it had not even cost you that. You and I had a strong disagreement over your course of action in this whole mess, and we seem to disagree even on the outcome.
But let's look at the next step now: you have time, energy and resources that you can now place on getting the truth out, rather than on this quest. I hope you continue to use your web sites to expose TWI for the petty, vindictive, wannabe cult that it is.
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pjroberge
You may want to ponder why TWI has just registered 4 new trademarks for "The Way International". Answer as stated in TWI's pleadings: the combination of generic terms into a new trademark makes a non generic mark.
Yes they were.That is why they went through great trouble to try to build a case against the websites and asked for injunctions against the websites.Again, the domain name was not the main issue. Why are you so thick headed about that. The domain name arbitration board would have resolved the issue for under $1000.00 if that was the case. Are you saying that 4 lawyers were too stupid to go the cheapest route?
The sale was a joke as most people understood except those that took twi's slant on it. That's what the new websites are for. By the way, you may consider the fact that despite a huge onslaught of paperwork and over 40 filings with the court, TWI only got the domain name when they politely asked me for it. They were not the ones who decided, I decided.Link to comment
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LG
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CoolWaters
Psssst...Pat...
These guys helpin' ya brush up for the next go around? Tee hee.
You know in your heart you did good. Be at peace.
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Seth R.
Awesome just awesome. I loved reading your document production request, and the Early Neutral evaluator brief. Some great writting there man.
BTW, if I need representation, what is your retainer?
;)-->
Seth
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Cherished Child
What did you get out of this whole thing again, Pat? The fact that you weren't forced to shut down your web sites? Are you sure that TWI's main motive was to shut you down, or were they just throwing that bit into the mix, given the fact that they were already in a fight with you anyways? What is so particularly offensive about your Anti-Way site, that TWI would seek to shut it down, but leave sites like Pawtucket's and Raphael's unmolested?
"You guys keep talking about the number of times "the way" shows up on Web sites, as if any use of the words themselves are a trademark violation. That's a total straw man argument. TWI has never made any such claim"
Why is that a "straw man", Raphael? I'm specifically referring to the many Christian ministries/groups with the words, "The Way" in their titles/names. Why was Pat Rob*rge's use of "The Way" in his "The Way of Christ" site a violation of their trademark, but not similar usage by other groups? I still highly suspect that, were TWI to attempt to bully some other Christian group/ministry into dropping its use of the words, "The Way" in their titles, it would not be able to make it stick in a court of law. Any common sense thinking person (even a Judge---but most certainly, a jury) would have to conclude that "The Way" is JUST TOO GENERIC a term to remain the exclusive domain of a single church or denomination. But TWI isn't going after any other groups with just, "The Way" in their names, because they know (I'm sure their lawyers have advised them) that they could possibly loose that mark in a ....in' contest against the wrong 800 pound gorilla. They know that someone like Pat hasn't the financial resources to launch a sustained and successful fight against them in such a dispute. But isn't there a church somewhere called, "THE WAY OF CHRIST United Methodist Church", or something similar? Is TWI going after them? I doubt it.
The reason why TWIM lost it's suit is because they used the words, "The Way International" in their title. That one additional word, "International", was what killed their case. As odeous as I find TWI, I would have to agree that TWIM was violating their trademark.
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pjroberge
Long Gone: Your venomous rhetoric again leaves me wondering what your stake in this is, and why you are virtually silent on this board until I post about the lawsuit. You make a big deal out of my statement about the Judge not being a lawyer which I had been told and should have verified myself. Point well taken. However, the judge did prematurely come to a decision before having an evidentiary hearing on the matter to weigh the evidence. That was a mistake.
As far as legal precedent in my case, TWI used this case in their pleadings. I also pointed out to TWI's attorneys that this was not a full blown decision after a trial, but was for a restraining order. Further, most citations for court purposes are of appellate decisions and the ones that carry real weight are the appellate decisions from the same circuit, as any first year law student knows. TWI apparently lacked any "victories" in court over their trademarks as I know of 3 cases where they lost.
Oh, by the way, why did TWI feel the need to file for 4 new trademarks for "the way international" if their trademark "The Way" was not generic and was defendable? Did they just want to add to their collection of 128 other trademarks?
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pjroberge
From my ENE brief:
1. TWI Has No Rights In The Mark "The Way"
Roberge has always been of the contention that TWI's trademark "The Way" has been invalid and unenforceable due to it being public domain. Whether TWI likes it or not, they are not the owners of the mark. The Christian church as a whole are the rightful owners with common law trademark rights. TWI used the legal process to try to obscure this reality, but TWI only has the same right as any other church group to the use of the mark.
B. TWI's Mark "The Way" is Generic in A Religious ContextAnd "The Way" Is Also a Generic Term in Society
A search of trademarks with the search term "The Way" yielded 3055 trademarks incorporating TWI's "mark." For TWI to represent to the court that their trademark "The Way" is famous or unique or any other description is beyond the truth of it being generic, and is not zealous representation of a client, but rather is misrepresentation.
A generic term is the genus or basis of a group of marks, and "The Way " is that genus. The term "The Way" is generic in religious circles, because it is the central theme or common denominator in the name of over 400 churches, 2700 religious books and over 100 websites. TWI has absolutely no way to defend against this very overwhelming reality. The Way is also a generic term in society as evidenced by so many trademarks.
Whether TWI's mark was generic at the time of the The Way International v. King's Way Center in 1984, it certainly is now twenty years later. There has been a resurgence / revival of church beliefs going back to earlier biblical roots. In earlier times, followers of Jesus Christ were called followers of The Way before they were known as Christians. This is even acknowledged by TWI in their court pleadings.
"To allow trademark protection for generic terms, i.e., names which describe the genus of goods being sold, even when these have become identified with a first user, would grant the owner of the mark a monopoly, since a competitor could not describe his goods as what they are."
CES PUBLISHING CORP., v. ST. REGIS PUBLICATIONS, 531 F.2d 11; 1975
"A "generic" term is "one that refers... to the genus of which the particular product [or service is a specie". McGregor-Doniger, Inc. v. Drizzle, Inc., supra, at 599 F.2d 1131"
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pjroberge
From My ENE pleadings pages 2&3
1. TWI Has No Rights In The Mark "The Way"
R*berge has always been of the contention that TWI's trademark "The Way" has been invalid and unenforceable due to it being public domain. Whether TWI likes it or not, they are not the owners of the mark. The Christian church as a whole are the rightful owners with common law trademark rights. TWI used the legal process to try to obscure this reality, but TWI only has the same right as any other church group to the use of the mark.
B. TWI's Mark "The Way" is Generic in A Religious Context
And "The Way" Is Also a Generic Term in Society
A search of trademarks with the search term "The Way" yielded 3055 trademarks incorporating TWI's "mark." For TWI to represent to the court that their trademark "The Way" is famous or unique or any other description is beyond the truth of it being generic, and is not zealous representation of a client, but rather is misrepresentation.
A generic term is the genus or basis of a group of marks, and "The Way " is that genus. The term "The Way" is generic in religious circles, because it is the central theme or common denominator in the name of over 400 churches, 2700 religious books and over 100 websites. TWI has absolutely no way to defend against this very overwhelming reality. The Way is also a generic term in society as evidenced by so many trademarks.
Whether TWI's mark was generic at the time of the The Way International v. King's Way Center in 1984, it certainly is now twenty years later. There has been a resurgence / revival of church beliefs going back to earlier biblical roots. In earlier times, followers of Jesus Christ were called followers of The Way before they were known as Christians. This is even acknowledged by TWI in their court pleadings.
"To allow trademark protection for generic terms, i.e., names which describe the genus of goods being sold, even when these have become identified with a first user, would grant the owner of the mark a monopoly, since a competitor could not describe his goods as what they are."
CES PUBLISHING CORP., v. ST. REGIS PUBLICATIONS, 531 F.2d 11; 1975
"A "generic" term is "one that refers... to the genus of which the particular product [or service is a specie". McGregor-Doniger, Inc. v. Drizzle, Inc., supra, at 599 F.2d 1131"
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LG
I have no stake in this or anything else related to TWI. I don’t care about TWI one way or another. I didn’t care about TWI, per se, when I first discovered Waydale. I was simply trying to gather some information so that I could help someone I do care about. I’ve hung around because I like some of the people here and enjoy discussing some of the topics that come up (mostly the political ones these days). If you’ll take a look at the political forum, you’ll see that I’ve been far from “virtually silent on this board.” My interest, such as it is, in the TWI legal matters stems from my general interest in legal, governmental, and political matters, not from any particular interest in any of the parties to the disputes.
Pat, I think it’s inexcusable for any purportedly informed, responsible adult citizen of the United States not to know that U.S. District Court judges are all lawyers and are all appointed by the President, not elected. It’s just flat out appalling for someone pretending to speak competently about matters of federal law and cases before U.S. District Courts to not know such basic information and, even worse, to spout off contrary, false information that uninformed readers might believe.
You’re being more than a little presumptuous there, Pat. You don’t know what you’re talking about.Link to comment
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CoolWaters
Taken from here:
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CoolWaters
Taken from here:
How Cases Move Through Federal Courts
Civil Cases
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