"You either couldn't afford to go forward (no shame there: just say so) or you didn't have the confidence in your case that you profess. If you believed in your case and had the will to see it through to trial, you'd have done it: you would not have surrendered the domain name no matter how they asked."
Raf, the same could be said of TWI going to trial. They could have gained more by going to trial as well (despite Pat's current financial situation - they could have royally screwed him over if they had an absolute win on their hands)and the fact they didn't, tells me they too faced the very real possibility of losing.
Conversely, it is often very foolish to represent oneself - especially in a federal court which has much stricter rules than district or circuit. So it may very simply be no one was spanked and both parties were wise to settle in the way they did. TWI got their domain name and trademark and Pat did not lose his shirt.
quote: Ex-cultworld was not the infringing website. thewayinternational.com was.
So why did TWI spend so much time building a case against the "infringing" websites ex-cultworld and the path of christ? Thewayinternational.com was not a website, but a re-direct page.
And why did TWI file a lawsuit 3 weeks after thewayinternational.com was disabled?
And why mention the other websites at all if those websites were not the reason for the lawsuit? Are you that naive to the evil of TWI?
You just do not want to believe I may be right, so you continue to dispute what was the real reason.
quote:The question was whether TWI sought to take down your web sites.
Consider what assets that I have to satisfy a judgement like stock in a magazine I used to own or other assets that TWI wanted. Ask yourself: Why did TWI sue PR Computer Services as well as me? Answer: PR Computer Services used to own the server lease for the websites, and the domain names.
You need to think outside of the box of what is really going on versus outside appearances.
Pat, are you REALLY that wrong about your own case (edited w/apologies)? Can you be?
quote:So why did TWI spend so much time building a case against the "infringing" websites ex-cultworld and the path of christ? Thewayinternational.com was not a website, but a re-direct page.
Where did thewayinternational.com redirect people? Come on, I know you know the answer. DING DING DING!!! thewayinternational.com redirected them to your other web sites! SO (he said, turning to the jury of his greasespot peers), the other sites contained information critical of TWI, and you cybersquatted on thewayinternational.com to direct people to your sites.
To make the case for trademark infringement, TWI had to prove that you were wrongly using their mark to bring people someplace other than TWI. The other place you were bringing them was your other web sites. The content of the other web sites is relevant to prove you were using their mark to damage them.
They had no [legal] problem with your sites existing, but when you used twi.com to get people to your sites, you crossed the line, and they sued. At no point in any of the documentation that you posted did TWI ask, request, demand, suggest, imply, or even HOPE that you shut down the other web sites. Their only request was that you not wrongly use their trademarks to do it. That this is true is evident in that TWI will not ever sue you for twisucks.com, at least not as a trademark infringement.
"You either couldn't afford to go forward (no shame there: just say so) or you didn't have the confidence in your case that you profess. If you believed in your case and had the will to see it through to trial, you'd have done it: you would not have surrendered the domain name no matter how they asked."
Raf, the same could be said of TWI going to trial. They could have gained more by going to trial as well (despite Pat's current financial situation - they could have royally screwed him over if they had an absolute win on their hands)and the fact they didn't, tells me they too faced the very real possibility of losing.
That's wishful thinking Abi. PAT HAD NO MONEY. They would have gained nothing, and it would have cost them more, if TWI had continued to pursue the case after they already got what they were looking for. Screwing Pat over financially was obviously NOT on their agenda.
quote:Conversely, it is often very foolish to represent oneself - especially in a federal court which has much stricter rules than district or circuit. So it may very simply be no one was spanked and both parties were wise to settle in the way they did. TWI got their domain name and trademark and Pat did not lose his shirt.
I believe both parties were wise to settle the way they did: TWI was wise because to pursue a lawsuit after you've achieved your main objective is folly. Pat was wise because he, belatedly, recognized that twi should have the domain name in question and the legal problems went away the day "the day" that he surrendered the name.
Ask yourself: Why did TWI sue PR Computer Services as well as me? Answer: PR Computer Services used to own the server lease for the websites, and the domain names. Duh!!
I know the real reason for the lawsuit, but to state it would betray a confidence. I am done arguing with you over this. I know what happened and you are making a sense knowledge evaluation of the situation.
Duh is right, Pat. DUH! PR Computer Services owned the server lease... DUH! PR Computer Services was thus just as guilty of the trademark infringement as you were as an individual.
Pat, I refuse to continue this battle of wits with you until and unless you arm yourself.
The debate is over by fiat then. Pat is right because confidential informant man told him so. Paw, Eagle, get ready for your lawsuits. We're next!
Pat, seriously: do I think TWI wanted to see your web sites shut down? Yeah, they'd love to see us all shut down. The difference between us and you is that you gave them an opening they could fly Ambassador One through. Settling the case closed that opening. They've got nothing on you now. You disarmed their only weapon, which is PRECISELY what Long Gone and I have been trying to tell you since TWI filed suit. These are things you KNOW I told you from the beginning.
quote:Originally posted April 10, 2004
Pat doesn't need to listen to our amateur legal theories. That is very true. But he also doesn't need to go online and announce his legal theories to the whole world, especially knowing that his courtroom adversaries are observing every word. This isn't a game. This isn't just a thread. This is a lawsuit that in some way threatens this man's livelihood. And for what? A domain name? Give up that issue and what has TWI got on him? NOTHING. Why do you think TWI has not gone after Paw? Because they CAN'T!
Originally posted April 13, 2004
But as long as Pat sees that position as "bending over" or caving in to a bully, then he will never be rid of this unnecessary legal entanglement, which is diverting his time and attention from the REAL cult-fighting that supposedly got TWI angry with him in the first place.
Originally posted April 13, 2004
Pat says TWI is picking on him for criticizing them. Well, I've been criticizing LCM, PFAL and Wierwille for years. Where's my lawsuit? Where's Paw's lawsuit? There's no lawsuit because what we do so clearly falls under free speech. Pat can continue to criticize TWI all he wants without fear of reprisal, once he drops this albatross of a domain name that actually HAS hindered him EXACTLY the way TWI wants it to, because it has diverted him from pursuing the reasonable goal of exposing that no-good outfit for the freedom-hating cult that it is.
Originally posted April 14, 2004
My contention is that Pat has no MORAL claim to the domain name. Give it up and watch the lawsuit evaporate, because there will be nothing to fight over except for Pat's first amendment right to criticize a contemptible, controlling organization.
And I really don't care how superior your legal knowledge is. I would like to have seen you deal with these guys and see how you would have faired.
You probably would have run crying at the first brief they submitted as you seem to believe all the Bull that TWI's lawyers spewed in their pleadings.
No, Pat. I would have made informed decisions that would have precluded a lawsuit. If I wanted to operate web sites such as yours, I would avoid any possibility of trademark issues, by choosing names that did not include a TWI trademark. I would have considered the cost of any potential battles and the likelihood of winning, and chosen only battles I could win. If you had done that, you never would have received the June 2000 or December 2003 letters from TWI’s attorneys. You never would have thrown away money on an aborted attempt to register THE WAY OF CHRIST MINISTRY as a trademark. You never would have registered the domain name “thewayinternational.com” or, if you did, you would never have used it in a manner that even hinted at infringement. (Recall that, although TWI objected to it in 2000, it didn’t bother you about it after for over three years after that, because you were simply holding it and not using it. TWI didn’t act until you began using it illegitimately in 2003.)
If I had your goals, as I understand them, I would have avoided any possible trademark disputes and concentrated on exposing TWI, informing current, potential, and ex-TWI followers, and helping them where I could. Those are all noble goals, the pursuit of which you have been distracted from by the trademark issues. The guy in the tuxedo has been telling you that for a long time.
I would like to know, if someone wouldn't mind digging it out for me, where TWI ever requested (in its injunctions) that excultworld or any of Pat's other sites be shut down. I'll look for it too, but as it's a claim Pat has made on several occasions, I imagine it must be in TWI's requests somewhere.
TWI never sought to shut down those sites and never alleged infringement, either direct or by association, regarding The Path of Christ Ministry or Ex-Wayworld. I know I’ve said that before, and you or others probably have too.
In my case, the settlement came after both parties presented their cases and met with the arbitator [the word is “arbiter” but he wasn’t an arbiter, rather an evaluator] privately. I did not make an offer to settle.
In other words, Pat, what I said was exactly correct, even though you previously said it was wrong. (I never said that you made an offer.)
"That's wishful thinking Abi. PAT HAD NO MONEY. They would have gained nothing, and it would have cost them more, if TWI had continued to pursue the case after they already got what they were looking for. Screwing Pat over financially was obviously NOT on their agenda."
No Raf, its speculation, just as your opinion is speculation. Based upon what I know about TWI and about Pat and the "pain" he inflicts upon them with his website, I find it difficult to believe TWI wouldn't cause as much damage to him as they could, given the proper opportunity. That would include forcing him into bankruptcy if possible.
It's ok. Ultimately, it really doesn't matter which one of us is right.
I see what you're saying, but I really think Pat threw them for a loop by surrendering the domain name. I think they would have liked nothing more than to bankrupt him, but once he surrendered the name, they had little choice but to accept. The were in a bind after that.
My contention remains that this whole process cost Pat a lot more than it cost TWI.
Pat's victories are actually not victories at all: they're non-losses.
1. He doesn't have to pay TWI's legal fees.
2. He doesn't have to account for and repay any money that came in as a result of his use of the domain name (not that there WAS any, but it's the principle of the thing).
3. Pat doesn't have to pay the "treble damages" sought by TWI, an amount impossible to figure out without going through trial/discovery/etc.
It's in items 1 and 3 that he saved his web sites. As he said, those were his only assets. So once he gave up the domain name (how many of you see this coming?) he was able to save his assets.
Pat's losses:
1. The cost of securing and maintaining the domain name over five years.
2. The domain name, and any right to reclaim it.
3. The Way of Christ as a name, and any right to reclaim it.
4. His own legal fees.
The actual legal fight was over 2, with 3 as a backdrop. The threat, if TWI was victorious, is that it would have cost Pat so much that he would have no choice but to shut his sites down. Although TWI never sought that specifically, Pat is correct in that it's reasonable to assume they salivated over the prospect.
I guess I was distinguishing between TWI's motives and its actual legal position, and Pat was not. Someone told Pat that TWI was after the Web sites, but for some reason Pat never saw (until time to settle) that the best way to keep those sites was to close the door he'd opened with this trademark infringement stuff. On all the trademark and domain issues, Pat lost. Yeah, it could have been a HAYULL of a lot worse.
Bottom line: he ended up doing exactly what Long Gone and I advised from the beginning.
And I can't seem to get enough of "Law & Order" lately. Of course how could I avoid it - it's playing on TV almost all the time, in its various incarnations.
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Abigail
"You either couldn't afford to go forward (no shame there: just say so) or you didn't have the confidence in your case that you profess. If you believed in your case and had the will to see it through to trial, you'd have done it: you would not have surrendered the domain name no matter how they asked."
Raf, the same could be said of TWI going to trial. They could have gained more by going to trial as well (despite Pat's current financial situation - they could have royally screwed him over if they had an absolute win on their hands)and the fact they didn't, tells me they too faced the very real possibility of losing.
Conversely, it is often very foolish to represent oneself - especially in a federal court which has much stricter rules than district or circuit. So it may very simply be no one was spanked and both parties were wise to settle in the way they did. TWI got their domain name and trademark and Pat did not lose his shirt.
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Cherished Child
Oldies,
I looks like you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY like fanning the flames, too.
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pjroberge
So why did TWI spend so much time building a case against the "infringing" websites ex-cultworld and the path of christ? Thewayinternational.com was not a website, but a re-direct page.
And why did TWI file a lawsuit 3 weeks after thewayinternational.com was disabled?
And why mention the other websites at all if those websites were not the reason for the lawsuit? Are you that naive to the evil of TWI?
You just do not want to believe I may be right, so you continue to dispute what was the real reason.
Consider what assets that I have to satisfy a judgement like stock in a magazine I used to own or other assets that TWI wanted. Ask yourself: Why did TWI sue PR Computer Services as well as me? Answer: PR Computer Services used to own the server lease for the websites, and the domain names.You need to think outside of the box of what is really going on versus outside appearances.
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Raf
Pat, are you REALLY that wrong about your own case (edited w/apologies)? Can you be?
Where did thewayinternational.com redirect people? Come on, I know you know the answer. DING DING DING!!! thewayinternational.com redirected them to your other web sites! SO (he said, turning to the jury of his greasespot peers), the other sites contained information critical of TWI, and you cybersquatted on thewayinternational.com to direct people to your sites.
To make the case for trademark infringement, TWI had to prove that you were wrongly using their mark to bring people someplace other than TWI. The other place you were bringing them was your other web sites. The content of the other web sites is relevant to prove you were using their mark to damage them.
They had no [legal] problem with your sites existing, but when you used twi.com to get people to your sites, you crossed the line, and they sued. At no point in any of the documentation that you posted did TWI ask, request, demand, suggest, imply, or even HOPE that you shut down the other web sites. Their only request was that you not wrongly use their trademarks to do it. That this is true is evident in that TWI will not ever sue you for twisucks.com, at least not as a trademark infringement.
Pat, you don't even understand your own CASE.
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Raf
That's wishful thinking Abi. PAT HAD NO MONEY. They would have gained nothing, and it would have cost them more, if TWI had continued to pursue the case after they already got what they were looking for. Screwing Pat over financially was obviously NOT on their agenda.
I believe both parties were wise to settle the way they did: TWI was wise because to pursue a lawsuit after you've achieved your main objective is folly. Pat was wise because he, belatedly, recognized that twi should have the domain name in question and the legal problems went away the day "the day" that he surrendered the name.
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pjroberge
Raf:
Ask yourself: Why did TWI sue PR Computer Services as well as me? Answer: PR Computer Services used to own the server lease for the websites, and the domain names. Duh!!
I know the real reason for the lawsuit, but to state it would betray a confidence. I am done arguing with you over this. I know what happened and you are making a sense knowledge evaluation of the situation.
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Raf
Duh is right, Pat. DUH! PR Computer Services owned the server lease... DUH! PR Computer Services was thus just as guilty of the trademark infringement as you were as an individual.
Pat, I refuse to continue this battle of wits with you until and unless you arm yourself.
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pjroberge
The domain name thewayinternational.com was registered in my name only years before PR Computer Services...Try again?
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Raf
Doesn't matter. At some point in the process PR Computer Services owned the server lease. Once it did, it became liable.
Check.
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pjroberge
Sorry, but the debate is over. I have a confidential informant that told me different. The lawsuit was only a pretense to get at the websites. Bye
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Raf
The debate is over by fiat then. Pat is right because confidential informant man told him so. Paw, Eagle, get ready for your lawsuits. We're next!
Pat, seriously: do I think TWI wanted to see your web sites shut down? Yeah, they'd love to see us all shut down. The difference between us and you is that you gave them an opening they could fly Ambassador One through. Settling the case closed that opening. They've got nothing on you now. You disarmed their only weapon, which is PRECISELY what Long Gone and I have been trying to tell you since TWI filed suit. These are things you KNOW I told you from the beginning.
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LG
If I had your goals, as I understand them, I would have avoided any possible trademark disputes and concentrated on exposing TWI, informing current, potential, and ex-TWI followers, and helping them where I could. Those are all noble goals, the pursuit of which you have been distracted from by the trademark issues. The guy in the tuxedo has been telling you that for a long time.
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LG
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LG
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Abigail
"That's wishful thinking Abi. PAT HAD NO MONEY. They would have gained nothing, and it would have cost them more, if TWI had continued to pursue the case after they already got what they were looking for. Screwing Pat over financially was obviously NOT on their agenda."
No Raf, its speculation, just as your opinion is speculation. Based upon what I know about TWI and about Pat and the "pain" he inflicts upon them with his website, I find it difficult to believe TWI wouldn't cause as much damage to him as they could, given the proper opportunity. That would include forcing him into bankruptcy if possible.
It's ok. Ultimately, it really doesn't matter which one of us is right.
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Raf
I see what you're saying, but I really think Pat threw them for a loop by surrendering the domain name. I think they would have liked nothing more than to bankrupt him, but once he surrendered the name, they had little choice but to accept. The were in a bind after that.
My contention remains that this whole process cost Pat a lot more than it cost TWI.
Pat's victories are actually not victories at all: they're non-losses.
1. He doesn't have to pay TWI's legal fees.
2. He doesn't have to account for and repay any money that came in as a result of his use of the domain name (not that there WAS any, but it's the principle of the thing).
3. Pat doesn't have to pay the "treble damages" sought by TWI, an amount impossible to figure out without going through trial/discovery/etc.
It's in items 1 and 3 that he saved his web sites. As he said, those were his only assets. So once he gave up the domain name (how many of you see this coming?) he was able to save his assets.
Pat's losses:
1. The cost of securing and maintaining the domain name over five years.
2. The domain name, and any right to reclaim it.
3. The Way of Christ as a name, and any right to reclaim it.
4. His own legal fees.
The actual legal fight was over 2, with 3 as a backdrop. The threat, if TWI was victorious, is that it would have cost Pat so much that he would have no choice but to shut his sites down. Although TWI never sought that specifically, Pat is correct in that it's reasonable to assume they salivated over the prospect.
I guess I was distinguishing between TWI's motives and its actual legal position, and Pat was not. Someone told Pat that TWI was after the Web sites, but for some reason Pat never saw (until time to settle) that the best way to keep those sites was to close the door he'd opened with this trademark infringement stuff. On all the trademark and domain issues, Pat lost. Yeah, it could have been a HAYULL of a lot worse.
Bottom line: he ended up doing exactly what Long Gone and I advised from the beginning.
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Oakspear
"I know stuff you don't know so stop arguing"...where have I heard that before?
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George Aar
Pat's not the only one who's well-versed in legal matters.
I've seen every episode of "MATLOCK".
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TheInvisibleDan
And I can't seem to get enough of "Law & Order" lately. Of course how could I avoid it - it's playing on TV almost all the time, in its various incarnations.
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socks
"Denny Crane"
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