I believe christ had a choice and GAVE his life as a living sacrafice for Gods people, like the animal sacrafice in the OT that covered for their sins Christ died to pay the price of Gods reckoning for our sins once and for all .
first adam sinned as a man and then Jesus Christ showed us a much better way , by dying on the cross with the burden of all of our sin.
I do not think it was a plan that was a slam dunk by any other means than a active loving choice by a man determined to please His father and who also loved each of us enough to end his life for the sin to stop and give us access and fellowship with the Holy spirit as Adam once had and as God originaly designed for us to live . He gave us a choice to believe in what He did or not and join in eternal life. A payment had to be made for sin by Gods rules and Jesus paid the price by giving something out of choice and that was his life for our sins.
It is the spirit which does not sin , people can and often do sin .
We grow in the spirit which means we grow into a more spiritual person capable of more spiritual manners and ways in obedience to God as Christ was our perfect example . our flesh just turns into dirt evenutaly it is our spirit life that will abide in new more perfect bodies in the kingdom.
Here's where we part ways. I believe Jesus was uniquely unable to sin. It was a slam dunk. As it is with all the Bible. The battle's been won. We are called to grow in Christ.
Def -- I respect both your position, and you for "sticking to your guns". :)-->
I don't see it as a "slam dunk", though I will admit to the fact that Jesus (while tempted in all points like we are), never sinned, and probably also never considered sin as an option. Looking at Heb 4:15 -- I'm not 100% on the meaning of the word without. Not sure if it means He was (as you say) "without" -- as in unable to sin; or "without" -- as in choosing not to sin.
Here is what I believe about Jesus, and if you don't agree -- well, that's ok, cause you won't be the first to disagree! :D-->
God created Adam, and made him "perfect". He also gave Adam freedom of will. Adam chose to sin. As a matter of fact, Lucifer was made perfect, and he/it chose to sin also. (Isaiah 14:12-15). Look at what you have here. 2 "perfect" beings -- one human, and one spirit, and both with freedom of will. I submit to you, that Jesus Christ was also perfect -- fashioned as Adam was (both "perfect, and with freedom of will). It makes complete sense to me that God would fashion a "second Adam" to rectify the mistakes of the "first Adam". The sacrifices, etc., in the OT were only a substitute -- until a living, breathing, willing person would step forward. And obviously, you and I could not do it -- but Jesus could/can, and did do it.
I also do not believe that Jesus was "exactly like us", but I do believe He was "exactly like Adam", and there is a difference. If He was fashioned after man, it makes sense to me that He (the 2nd son of God) was fashioned after Adam - the first son of God. He was made perfect just as Adam was, He had freedom of will (ie - choice to obey or disobey God), and He used that "choice" option correctly, whereas both Adam, and Lucifer did not. Slam dunk?? I don't think so.
It is interesting to think of how Jesus not only replaced Adam (as an obedient son), but also to think of how He replaced Lucifer as well, by being so perfect in His obedience, that He takes the place of the one who was once perfect, yet decided to "exalt himself" above God. Jesus is now the bright and morning star. Not Lucifer. And also -- Jesus had the "Word of God" to follow, as did Adam -- yet Adam never had the written Word, just the "spoken Word" (what a "disadvantage, eh??) --> Both had the word, both were son's Of God by birth, and one chose to follow the written word, and the other chose not to follow the spoken word.
And -- (honest question) -- how could it be a "slam dunk" given the many times Jesus prayed to His Father for guidance, and answers??? How about the Garden of Gethsemane? Or the time he cast out spirits, and said "this comes from prayer and fasting"? A slam dunk (at least to me) entails no work, no agonizing in prayer, no asking for help -- it should be a done deal. Right?
I agree 100% that the battle has been won, and I agree we are called to grow up in Christ. But I don't see it as being denigrating to Jesus Christ to say that He was a human, with the capability to sin, and with the determination not to. Others went before Him, with the same capabilities, and failed. He did not! :)-->
and a final note -- I find it most interesting that Jesus (by His obedience), was able to fill two "vacant spots" by His free will, that two others chose to leave by their "free will". :)-->
I agree. Completely, with the exception of the fact that as a human -- his thinking capacity had to be like ours. Adam had no sin nature either, yet he gave in to temptation, and did sin. Jesus was capable of sinning, yet He chose not to.
Again, I very much agree with you. Especially, "his thinking capacity had to be like ours."
Sky --Yes -- imho -- Jesus thought as we do, was tempted as we are, lived life like the rest of do, dreamt, wept, laughed, got angry just like us, yet remained sinless. As I said -- I think he was made just like Adam. Jesus also had the "innocent blood", that none of us can claim, but Adam could.
Adam and Jesus both had freedom of will to either follow the Word, or to not follow it. Adam chose to sin, Jesus chose not to sin. They both had the same thinking capabilities that you and I have today. The main difference between them and us, is that God was their physical father.
I believe that Jesus did not step forward, having already existed in Heaven (John 17:5) he chose to limit himself to an earthly body.
Being the creator of the world, he already knew what the snares were.
As for replacing Lucifer, I believe since he was already on the throne, there was never a vacancy.
This kind of doctrine — making Jesus and Lucifer equals — borrows heavily from the Mormons. But we know from Hebrews that Jesus is higher than any angel.
So with Philippians,Colossians and Hebrewscalling Jesus creator, there has to be more to him than a man who stepped forward.
quote: This kind of doctrine — making Jesus and Lucifer equals — borrows heavily from the Mormons.
I agree, and I for one do NOT espouse Mormon doctrine, and their idea of Jesus and Lucifer being "brothers". I do believe that Jesus "took the vacancy" by His obedience, whereas that vacancy was created by Lucifer's disobedience.
As far as John 17:5 goes, have you considered This CES link??
There are many thought-provoking things to consider in their Top 100 Reasons category, and while you may not agree with any of it, take a look, and see what you think. :)-->
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mj412
I believe christ had a choice and GAVE his life as a living sacrafice for Gods people, like the animal sacrafice in the OT that covered for their sins Christ died to pay the price of Gods reckoning for our sins once and for all .
first adam sinned as a man and then Jesus Christ showed us a much better way , by dying on the cross with the burden of all of our sin.
I do not think it was a plan that was a slam dunk by any other means than a active loving choice by a man determined to please His father and who also loved each of us enough to end his life for the sin to stop and give us access and fellowship with the Holy spirit as Adam once had and as God originaly designed for us to live . He gave us a choice to believe in what He did or not and join in eternal life. A payment had to be made for sin by Gods rules and Jesus paid the price by giving something out of choice and that was his life for our sins.
It is the spirit which does not sin , people can and often do sin .
We grow in the spirit which means we grow into a more spiritual person capable of more spiritual manners and ways in obedience to God as Christ was our perfect example . our flesh just turns into dirt evenutaly it is our spirit life that will abide in new more perfect bodies in the kingdom.
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dmiller
Def -- I respect both your position, and you for "sticking to your guns".
:)-->
I don't see it as a "slam dunk", though I will admit to the fact that Jesus (while tempted in all points like we are), never sinned, and probably also never considered sin as an option. Looking at Heb 4:15 -- I'm not 100% on the meaning of the word without. Not sure if it means He was (as you say) "without" -- as in unable to sin; or "without" -- as in choosing not to sin.
Here is what I believe about Jesus, and if you don't agree -- well, that's ok, cause you won't be the first to disagree!
:D-->
God created Adam, and made him "perfect". He also gave Adam freedom of will. Adam chose to sin. As a matter of fact, Lucifer was made perfect, and he/it chose to sin also. (Isaiah 14:12-15). Look at what you have here. 2 "perfect" beings -- one human, and one spirit, and both with freedom of will. I submit to you, that Jesus Christ was also perfect -- fashioned as Adam was (both "perfect, and with freedom of will). It makes complete sense to me that God would fashion a "second Adam" to rectify the mistakes of the "first Adam". The sacrifices, etc., in the OT were only a substitute -- until a living, breathing, willing person would step forward. And obviously, you and I could not do it -- but Jesus could/can, and did do it.
I also do not believe that Jesus was "exactly like us", but I do believe He was "exactly like Adam", and there is a difference. If He was fashioned after man, it makes sense to me that He (the 2nd son of God) was fashioned after Adam - the first son of God. He was made perfect just as Adam was, He had freedom of will (ie - choice to obey or disobey God), and He used that "choice" option correctly, whereas both Adam, and Lucifer did not. Slam dunk?? I don't think so.
It is interesting to think of how Jesus not only replaced Adam (as an obedient son), but also to think of how He replaced Lucifer as well, by being so perfect in His obedience, that He takes the place of the one who was once perfect, yet decided to "exalt himself" above God. Jesus is now the bright and morning star. Not Lucifer. And also -- Jesus had the "Word of God" to follow, as did Adam -- yet Adam never had the written Word, just the "spoken Word" (what a "disadvantage, eh??)
--> Both had the word, both were son's Of God by birth, and one chose to follow the written word, and the other chose not to follow the spoken word.
And -- (honest question) -- how could it be a "slam dunk" given the many times Jesus prayed to His Father for guidance, and answers??? How about the Garden of Gethsemane? Or the time he cast out spirits, and said "this comes from prayer and fasting"? A slam dunk (at least to me) entails no work, no agonizing in prayer, no asking for help -- it should be a done deal. Right?
I agree 100% that the battle has been won, and I agree we are called to grow up in Christ. But I don't see it as being denigrating to Jesus Christ to say that He was a human, with the capability to sin, and with the determination not to. Others went before Him, with the same capabilities, and failed. He did not!
:)-->
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dmiller
and a final note -- I find it most interesting that Jesus (by His obedience), was able to fill two "vacant spots" by His free will, that two others chose to leave by their "free will".
:)-->
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sky4it
dmiller:
Your comment:
I agree. Completely, with the exception of the fact that as a human -- his thinking capacity had to be like ours. Adam had no sin nature either, yet he gave in to temptation, and did sin. Jesus was capable of sinning, yet He chose not to.
Again, I very much agree with you. Especially, "his thinking capacity had to be like ours."
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dmiller
Sky --Yes -- imho -- Jesus thought as we do, was tempted as we are, lived life like the rest of do, dreamt, wept, laughed, got angry just like us, yet remained sinless. As I said -- I think he was made just like Adam. Jesus also had the "innocent blood", that none of us can claim, but Adam could.
Adam and Jesus both had freedom of will to either follow the Word, or to not follow it. Adam chose to sin, Jesus chose not to sin. They both had the same thinking capabilities that you and I have today. The main difference between them and us, is that God was their physical father.
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Trefor Heywood
Sure Jesus may have made some mistakes. Mistakes are not always Sin.
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def59
Dmiller
I believe that Jesus did not step forward, having already existed in Heaven (John 17:5) he chose to limit himself to an earthly body.
Being the creator of the world, he already knew what the snares were.
As for replacing Lucifer, I believe since he was already on the throne, there was never a vacancy.
This kind of doctrine — making Jesus and Lucifer equals — borrows heavily from the Mormons. But we know from Hebrews that Jesus is higher than any angel.
So with Philippians,Colossians and Hebrewscalling Jesus creator, there has to be more to him than a man who stepped forward.
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dmiller
I agree, and I for one do NOT espouse Mormon doctrine, and their idea of Jesus and Lucifer being "brothers". I do believe that Jesus "took the vacancy" by His obedience, whereas that vacancy was created by Lucifer's disobedience.
As far as John 17:5 goes, have you considered This CES link??
There are many thought-provoking things to consider in their Top 100 Reasons category, and while you may not agree with any of it, take a look, and see what you think.
:)-->
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Whoa I have held my tongue on this one...
and my question would certainly be censorial...
I can't even put my question mildly...
Oh well~~~
Later
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