Actually the Calvinists have twisted the predestination doctrine to make it sound like God is just plain cruel and heartless to some people.
I too believe in predestination, but as a universalist I also believe in the ultimate salvation of everyone.
True, we will all be tried for what we have done in this life, but I don't believe in a punishment that has no redeeming value. While the annihilation doctrine that TWI taught is closer to God's character than the tradtionalist view that God will subject hopeless sinners to eternal torment, it still demeans and undermines God's ability to save to the utmost everyone. Besides, what's the point to teaching a sinner a lesson only to snuff him out afterwards? The bible teaches that when God administers proper retribution for sin, the judged sinner learns rightetousness. Who learns righteousness at being tortured for all eternity? And why teach someone righteousness only to snuff him out?
Time doesn't allow me to go into great detail of what I have learned in the past few years, but I do believe God has a reason for everything, good and evil, that has occurred, and why God created Satan. (incidently this Satan being the former archangel Lucifer is a bunch of traditionalist hooey! Satan was created by God to be evil, but more on that at a future time.)
quote: Satan being the former archangel Lucifer is a bunch of traditionalist hooey! Satan was created by God to be evil, but more on that at a future time
The future is now. Why not exposit this "new" doctrine?
quote: Satan being the former archangel Lucifer is a bunch of traditionalist hooey! Satan was created by God to be evil, but more on that at a future time.
Chuck,
So-o-o whatever happened to Satan's free will? And why would a perfect god create evil? And please spare me the 'God has a reason for everything' explanation, please. That's almost as twisted as the Calvinist version of sadism.
"Hey! This evil of your child dying horribly is happening to you because I've got a reason for everything. Now *shut up* and learn!!" ..... "Yessam massah."
quote: Satan being the former archangel Lucifer is a bunch of traditionalist hooey! Satan was created by God to be evil, but more on that at a future time.
Chuck,
So-o-o whatever happened to Satan's free will? And why would a perfect god create evil? And please spare me the 'God has a reason for everything' explanation, please. That's almost as twisted as the Calvinist version of sadism.
"Hey! This evil of your child dying horribly is happening to you because I've got a reason for everything. Now *shut up* and learn!!" ..... "Yessam massah."
-->
So Garth, tell me, how would you know good without evil to contrast it? Or do you think we should know neither good nor evil? Afterall both are charactersitics of the forbidden tree. That's the only reason God created evil, that we may know good.
Can you have light without darkness? Well, yes actually, but without the reality of darkness, we wouldn't appreciate the light.
Do you enjoy pleasures Garth??? What's the whole purpose of pleasure? To appease pain, what else! What if you suffered NO pain? Then you would need NO pleasure, and you'd might get a little bored. Maybe I'm now beginning to understand why some people are masochistic. They are so overwhelmed with pleasure that it has become boring to them, so they need a little PAIN to appreciate the pleasures they have.
Would you want to have sex with a gorgeous woman if you couldn't get aroused? The pleasure of sex appeases the PAIN of arousal.
You like to eat? Food tastes pretty good, doesn't it? But would you want to eat if you didn't suffer the PAIN of hunger?
How about a nice COLD DRINK? But hey, if you're NOT THIRSTY, then you wouldn't enjoy the refreshement very well, would you?
Now I don't know all of God's plans, therefore I cannot answer why some parents have had the pain of having a child taken away from them at a very young age through a tragic event. But I do believe that the child and parents will be reunited someday, and it will be cause for a great celebration! :)-->
Speaking of losing loved ones, my younger brother just passed away back in June. And I did have an emotional time with it as you may have recalled. But I'm also confident that it's not exactly goodbye forever! Just simply saying sayonara :)-->
quote: Satan being the former archangel Lucifer is a bunch of traditionalist hooey! Satan was created by God to be evil, but more on that at a future time
The future is now. Why not exposit this "new" doctrine?
Jerry
Ok, number one, Lucifer is only menitoned once in the entire bible. In the book of Isaiah. Never in the entire context does it indicate that Lucifer when he fell became the chieftain of the universal forces of evil, commonly called Satan.
Jesus, when speaking of Satan, said that he was a MURDERER from the VERY BEGINNING!
If the traditional Lucifer became Satan story holds true, then Jesus lied, because he testified that Satan was ALWAYS evil, when in fact he was once a good angel named Lucifer.
I believe that Lucifer, which means light bringer, is often called the "morning star" and strangely enough, Adam fits that bill quite nicely. He was made in the image of God, who is light!
Now comes a real stumper: Who committed the original sin? Adam? or Satan?
Or better yet, who exactly IS Satan?
If you buy into this freedom of will thing, then the only Satan that could possibly exist is none other than our own selfish selves.
As the saying goes: "You are your OWN worst enemy!" Incidenty that's exactly what the word "satan", which is both a Hebrew and a Greek word, means, simply oppenent, or adversary.
The only satan that exist is just our own miserable selves. It is quite possible that the traditional idea that Satan is a separate entity is probably figurative or metaphoric.
quote: Jesus, when speaking of Satan, said that he was a MURDERER from the VERY BEGINNING!
If the traditional Lucifer became Satan story holds true, then Jesus lied, because he testified that Satan was ALWAYS evil, when in fact he was once a good angel named Lucifer.
This is why "dispensationalism" makes sense. :)-->
quote: Jesus, when speaking of Satan, said that he was a _MURDERER_ from the _VERY BEGINNING_!
If the traditional Lucifer became Satan story holds true, then Jesus lied, because he testified that Satan was _ALWAYS_ evil, when in fact he was once a good angel named Lucifer.
This is why "dispensationalism" makes sense. :)-->
Not neccessarily, Lucifer was good until evil took over his heart and he became Satan.
Ever wonder where Lucas came up with Annakin/Darth Vader?
Not neccessarily, Lucifer was good until evil took over his heart and he became Satan.
Evidently you overlooked what Jesus said, that Satan was a MURDERER from the very beginning. Satan was NEVER Lucifer, Satan was ALWAYS Satan.
There is nothing in the Bible that supports a Lucifer became Satan theory. In fact, when all the names of Satan are mentioned in Revelation, there is NOT ONE mention of his ever being Lucifer. He's called The Dragon and The Serpent and The Devil, but NEVER is Satan ever referred to as Lucifer.
"Lucifer" means "light bearer". Satan on the other hand has NO LIGHT in him whatsoever, which is why he is the prince of darkness.
Furthermore it is written that Satan TRANSFORMS himself into an angel of light. If Satan were actually Lucifer, then there would be NO NEED for such a transformation, for he would already be an angel of light.
It is quite possible that Lucifer became a satan, but he didn't become The Satan. Incidenltly it's interesting to note that Jesus called Peter Satan (right after He called him "the rock", can't He make up His mind??? LOL!!! :D--> ). Are we to suppose that Peter is the fallen angel Lucifer??????
Hey, I MYSELF am Satan!!!!! Or that's what Islamic extremists consider me because of my being American :D-->
I think Jesus was talking to Satan, because Jesus knew Satan was interfering with Peter.
Nope, he was talking to Peter :)--> He was responding to something Peter said about Jesus not deserving to be crucified. Jesus told Peter that he savored the things of this world. He also told Peter that He had prayed for him because Satan wanted to sift him out like wheat. The word "Satan" incidently isn't always a proper noun, it can also be a common noun. Jesus wasn't calling Peter "The Satan", but rather he was calling Peter "a satan". He also referred to Judas as "a devil", but not "The Devil".
You're right to think that Satan was interferring with Peter though, but Jesus WAS addressing Peter.
Nope, he was talking to Peter He was responding to something Peter said about Jesus not deserving to be crucified. Jesus told Peter that he savored the things of this world. He also told Peter that He had prayed for him because Satan wanted to sift him out like wheat. The word "Satan" incidently isn't always a proper noun, it can also be a common noun. Jesus wasn't calling Peter "The Satan", but rather he was calling Peter "a satan". He also referred to Judas as "a devil", but not "The Devil".
You're right to think that Satan was interferring with Peter though, but Jesus WAS addressing Peter.
how do you know these specific situations?~~~ are we talking from a critic pov or the actual you have proof pov?
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socks
I just felt like Li'l Calvin should show up first and get a good seat!
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dmiller
4-square congregations claim to have a "well-rounded" theology.
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CKnapp3
Actually the Calvinists have twisted the predestination doctrine to make it sound like God is just plain cruel and heartless to some people.
I too believe in predestination, but as a universalist I also believe in the ultimate salvation of everyone.
True, we will all be tried for what we have done in this life, but I don't believe in a punishment that has no redeeming value. While the annihilation doctrine that TWI taught is closer to God's character than the tradtionalist view that God will subject hopeless sinners to eternal torment, it still demeans and undermines God's ability to save to the utmost everyone. Besides, what's the point to teaching a sinner a lesson only to snuff him out afterwards? The bible teaches that when God administers proper retribution for sin, the judged sinner learns rightetousness. Who learns righteousness at being tortured for all eternity? And why teach someone righteousness only to snuff him out?
Time doesn't allow me to go into great detail of what I have learned in the past few years, but I do believe God has a reason for everything, good and evil, that has occurred, and why God created Satan. (incidently this Satan being the former archangel Lucifer is a bunch of traditionalist hooey! Satan was created by God to be evil, but more on that at a future time.)
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DrtyDzn
The future is now. Why not exposit this "new" doctrine?
Jerry
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GarthP2000
ROFLMAO!! I love it!
:D-->
Chuck,
So-o-o whatever happened to Satan's free will? And why would a perfect god create evil? And please spare me the 'God has a reason for everything' explanation, please. That's almost as twisted as the Calvinist version of sadism.
"Hey! This evil of your child dying horribly is happening to you because I've got a reason for everything. Now *shut up* and learn!!" ..... "Yessam massah."
-->
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Biblefan Dave
Do you know what this topic was going to be called beforehand?
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def59
is it possible for a full-gospel church to only use 2 or 3?
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Raf
Why exactly do Pentecostal churches meet more than once a year?
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def59
is it possible to be dull and charismatic at the same time.
Presidential candidates not withstanding.
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dmiller
Where do catholics get holy water?
Do they take a gallon of water, and boil the hell out of it?
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CKnapp3
So Garth, tell me, how would you know good without evil to contrast it? Or do you think we should know neither good nor evil? Afterall both are charactersitics of the forbidden tree. That's the only reason God created evil, that we may know good.
Can you have light without darkness? Well, yes actually, but without the reality of darkness, we wouldn't appreciate the light.
Do you enjoy pleasures Garth??? What's the whole purpose of pleasure? To appease pain, what else! What if you suffered NO pain? Then you would need NO pleasure, and you'd might get a little bored. Maybe I'm now beginning to understand why some people are masochistic. They are so overwhelmed with pleasure that it has become boring to them, so they need a little PAIN to appreciate the pleasures they have.
Would you want to have sex with a gorgeous woman if you couldn't get aroused? The pleasure of sex appeases the PAIN of arousal.
You like to eat? Food tastes pretty good, doesn't it? But would you want to eat if you didn't suffer the PAIN of hunger?
How about a nice COLD DRINK? But hey, if you're NOT THIRSTY, then you wouldn't enjoy the refreshement very well, would you?
Now I don't know all of God's plans, therefore I cannot answer why some parents have had the pain of having a child taken away from them at a very young age through a tragic event. But I do believe that the child and parents will be reunited someday, and it will be cause for a great celebration!
:)-->
Speaking of losing loved ones, my younger brother just passed away back in June. And I did have an emotional time with it as you may have recalled. But I'm also confident that it's not exactly goodbye forever! Just simply saying sayonara
:)-->
Edited by CKnapp3Link to comment
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CKnapp3
Ok, number one, Lucifer is only menitoned once in the entire bible. In the book of Isaiah. Never in the entire context does it indicate that Lucifer when he fell became the chieftain of the universal forces of evil, commonly called Satan.
Jesus, when speaking of Satan, said that he was a MURDERER from the VERY BEGINNING!
If the traditional Lucifer became Satan story holds true, then Jesus lied, because he testified that Satan was ALWAYS evil, when in fact he was once a good angel named Lucifer.
I believe that Lucifer, which means light bringer, is often called the "morning star" and strangely enough, Adam fits that bill quite nicely. He was made in the image of God, who is light!
Now comes a real stumper: Who committed the original sin? Adam? or Satan?
Or better yet, who exactly IS Satan?
If you buy into this freedom of will thing, then the only Satan that could possibly exist is none other than our own selfish selves.
As the saying goes: "You are your OWN worst enemy!" Incidenty that's exactly what the word "satan", which is both a Hebrew and a Greek word, means, simply oppenent, or adversary.
The only satan that exist is just our own miserable selves. It is quite possible that the traditional idea that Satan is a separate entity is probably figurative or metaphoric.
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DrtyDzn
This idea of satan reminds me of the image of having an angel whispering in one ear and a devil whispering in the other.
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CKnapp3
well, one thing for certain, you can't get water holier than distilled water
:)-->
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dmiller
Two quotes from my grandfather:
"Lead me not into temptation, I can find the way myself" and ....
"Satan -- get thee behind me, and push"
:D-->
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dmiller
This is why "dispensationalism" makes sense.
:)-->
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Predestination
hmmm
How would you like to be God and know everything that is going to happen?
Uhmmm forgive me. God does not know everything that is going to happen>>> God already knows. (- & + eternity).
i guess it was meant to be for some reason>>>
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def59
Not neccessarily, Lucifer was good until evil took over his heart and he became Satan.
Ever wonder where Lucas came up with Annakin/Darth Vader?
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GarthP2000
You mean Lucifer was once a 8 year old little boy who was a pod racer and said "Yippee!!"?
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dmiller
You just helped prove my point!
;)-->
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CKnapp3
Evidently you overlooked what Jesus said, that Satan was a MURDERER from the very beginning. Satan was NEVER Lucifer, Satan was ALWAYS Satan.
There is nothing in the Bible that supports a Lucifer became Satan theory. In fact, when all the names of Satan are mentioned in Revelation, there is NOT ONE mention of his ever being Lucifer. He's called The Dragon and The Serpent and The Devil, but NEVER is Satan ever referred to as Lucifer.
"Lucifer" means "light bearer". Satan on the other hand has NO LIGHT in him whatsoever, which is why he is the prince of darkness.
Furthermore it is written that Satan TRANSFORMS himself into an angel of light. If Satan were actually Lucifer, then there would be NO NEED for such a transformation, for he would already be an angel of light.
It is quite possible that Lucifer became a satan, but he didn't become The Satan. Incidenltly it's interesting to note that Jesus called Peter Satan (right after He called him "the rock", can't He make up His mind??? LOL!!!
:D--> ). Are we to suppose that Peter is the fallen angel Lucifer??????
Hey, I MYSELF am Satan!!!!! Or that's what Islamic extremists consider me because of my being American
:D-->
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def59
Cknapp
I think Jesus was talking to Satan, because Jesus knew Satan was interfering with Peter.
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CKnapp3
Nope, he was talking to Peter
:)--> He was responding to something Peter said about Jesus not deserving to be crucified. Jesus told Peter that he savored the things of this world. He also told Peter that He had prayed for him because Satan wanted to sift him out like wheat. The word "Satan" incidently isn't always a proper noun, it can also be a common noun. Jesus wasn't calling Peter "The Satan", but rather he was calling Peter "a satan". He also referred to Judas as "a devil", but not "The Devil".
You're right to think that Satan was interferring with Peter though, but Jesus WAS addressing Peter.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
how do you know these specific situations?~~~ are we talking from a critic pov or the actual you have proof pov?
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