I thought this kind of fit here, because this was one of the "inner secrets" ascribed by da vey.<BR><BR>What gives this kind of belief such an appeal?<BR><BR>Is it that people would rather not believe that their fellow human beings are incapable of such horrific acts?<BR><BR>Or is it the charismatic presentation by certain people?<BR><BR>How is it that people are conviced to debate about numbers- "well, there couldn't have been six million- one or two tops" as if that justifies anything?<BR><BR>And it seems that education is not a common denominater. People with VALID college degrees succumb to it.<BR><BR>What's the deal?
I think VP's motive was economic and political. Which by the way was probably a stupid move because it was The Word the Word and nothing but the Word ...
But yeah, I don't think he liked that the U.S. was (and still is) yearly shelling out $3-4 billion on Israel. He believed the Holocaust was used as a pretext to do that. " They are perpetual victims so let's keep shelling out billions for them. " And so forth.
It is the same for those who are heck bent on exploring the gnostic gospels. <BR><BR>The rationale is similar, trying to find hidden truth in "lost" books. Surely, because they were "hidden" they must have the real truth.<BR><BR>Just as we have eyewitness accounts of the camps from the soldiers, survivors and liberators, we have plenty of documentation on how we got the Bible and why some books made it and others didn't.<BR><BR>But why bother with the facts when there's a juicy conspiracy to exploit.
Baloney.
The so-called "gnostic" texts are of immense critical value to scholars and anyone exploring Christian history and
the development of Christian theology. Not all who explore the gnostic writings are driven by the rationale of seeking
out a "juicy conspiracy".
It's a good thing for historians and theologians today that certain writings had become "hidden" - otherwise, it is most likely that your bloodthirsty decendants would
have burned them along with the writers and admirers of these works.
Thank you Sunesis & Zshot. It is truly easier, as history proves many times over, to accept the lie than to admit the truth. Like you, I grew up around men who had the horrible honor of liberating some of those camps. To their dying day, they could not get rid of the nightmares of those days. When they came home, thye tried sharing what they found, but people would or could not accept the truth. As I mentioned on anotherb thread it is a case of self-denial on a grand scale,,,,,
...human faith unfolds along a spectrum of sequential development
and to use a common basic 7 step model (such as used in the Book of Rev)
those who live at the 2nd step prioritize "exclusive grouping" above all other values
...and by "prioritize"...i mean that this is most direct path to one's "death-flinch"
this is NOT some secondary factor...but the primary base of one's internal value system...one's very sense of self relies on this value
"practice jewish meditation?!? over my dead body...I'll die before I..." etc...
mythic religions, racisms, ethnocentricities, nationalism...even strong self-identification within a sports team are indicators of this wavelength being primary in our life
the group's very specific myth is considered superior to all other myths, factors, and other information and experience
...which mostly looks like control over the words and language we use to translate our experience of the universe..such as believing a specific creation story is superior and truer than others
we see it all over TWI
especially in this whole holocaust denial and the biblical ignorance that comes from being anti-jewish
..or going on a mission to convert india's myths to our myth
in a sense...those in this place are more or less a servant to some very specific limited language set..."under the thumb" of specific words and associated mind-pictures
btw...this is natural and healthy way for a person to leave early childhood and enter the family sphere
...but not always healthy for adults in this post-modern era ... with power and influence over others
Not only is there debate regarding the Holocaust, there is evidence that it was Stalin and not Hitler who was largely responsible for WWII. According to Mishca Shali, "Stalin dragged Hitler into war to force Europe into chaos and facilitate a communist revolution on the continent." ... The document, from October 1939, consists of three pages in English that purportedly reflect a dialogue in Moscow between a delegation from Czechoslovakia and a senior Soviet Foreign Ministry official. The Czechs tried to find out why the U.S.S.R. had signed the nonaggression treaty with Nazi Germany, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact of August 1939. A few days later the Germans invaded Poland, and World War II began.
Question...can someone define holocaust denial? specifically how are numbers involved? If the number killed was not 6 million but three million, one million, or even "only" a hundred thousand, does that make the hate any less? We have plentiful examples of statements Hitler himself made that plainly illustrate his hate and how inferior he considered the Jewish people, not worthy to be called human in his eyes (thus no human rights needed).
Many who argue that there were not as many as six million use that argument to deny much of the hate as well as the numbers. I think "The Myth of the Six Million" fit in that category. I don't see that connection; IMHO it was just as terrible even if there were only, say, a million or a hunderd thousand killed. Stories of serial killers who exterminated the lives of 10 or 15 people can sound just as greusome. Conversely, those who come unglued at the suggestion that the number might have been even a little lower add feul to the fire by basically saying that it wouldnt have been as bad had there been only 5 million, one million, etc.
Statements such as the followng, and so many, many more, should be the answer instead of arguing about numkbers IMO...
Hitler's Conversation with Josef Hell, 1922
When Hell asked Hitler what he intended doing if he ever had full freedom of action against the Jews, his response was:
"If I am ever really in power, the destruction of the Jews will be my first and most important job. As soon as I have power, I shall have gallows after gallows erected, for example, in Munich on the Marienplatz-as many of them as traffic allows. Then the Jews will be hanged one after another, and they will stay hanging until they stink. They will stay hanging as long as hygienically possible. As soon as they are untied, then the next group will follow and that will continue until the last Jew in Munich is exterminated. Exactly the same procedure will be followed in other cities until Germany is cleansed of the last Jew!"
Hitler Interview in the New York Staatszeitung, 1933.
"Why does the world shed crocodile’s tears over the richly merited fate of a small Jewish minority? … I ask Roosevelt, I ask the American people: Are you prepared to receive in your midst these well-poisoners of the German people and the universal spirit of Christianity? We would willingly give everyone of them a free steamer-ticket and a thousand-mark note for travelling expenses, if we could get rid of them."
In the latter statement Hitler himself tried to add significance to what he said was a small minority.
So it's their OPINIONS that there would have BEEN no 9/11 attacks if the US didn't support Israel.
So, it's disapproval that the US has Israel as an ally and supports it that gives Holocaust denial its appeal?
They're angry about Israel as an ally so they rewrite history in retaliation, or to vent?
The Palestinians call Israel’s 1948 war of independence their nakba, or catastrophic ethnic cleansing, or forced exile. The Israelis, for their part, have steadfastly rejected any suggestion of ethnic cleansing as calumny in all its anti-Semitic horror.
Historic revisionism is now under way. Without fanfare, just below the media radar screen, the Israeli Education Ministry has approved a textbook for Arab third-graders in Israel that concedes the war that gave birth to Israel was a “nakba” for the Palestinians. The textbook refers to the “expulsion” of some of the Palestinians and the “confiscation of many Arab-owned lands.”
Textbooks for Jewish Israelis in the same grade make no such verbal concession. But Israel’s “new wave” historians have been combing through fresh material now available from the British mandate period and Israeli archives that document the history of Israel before and after it became a state.
Textbooks for Jewish Israelis in the same grade make no such verbal concession. But Israel’s “new wave” historians have been combing through fresh material now available from the British mandate period and Israeli archives that document the history of Israel before and after it became a state.
Long-lasting myths are being debunked.
And this debunks the Holocaust, ..... how?
And how do we know that a lot of this info re: Isreal isn't at least partly driven by the centuries-old, rabid hatred/fear of the Jewish people, a hatred/fear that seemed to have become almost, ... necessary for some people's existance. <_<
And how do we know that a lot of this info re: Isreal isn't at least partly driven by the centuries-old, rabid hatred/fear of the Jewish people, a hatred/fear that seemed to have become almost, ... necessary for some people's existance. <_<
Oh.... The Israel lobby makes sure of it! Working closely with members of Congress, public-policy organizations and journals of opinion, energetic, well-financed groups like the American Israel Public Affairs Committee and the American Jewish Committee, along with dozens of political-action committees, perpetuate the myth of Israel as an isolated, beleaguered state surrounded by enemies and in need of America’s unstinting financial and military support. This lobby is particularly adept at stifling debate before it begins. Whether the issue is abortion, arms control, affirmative action, gay rights, the environment, trade policy, health care, immigration or welfare, there is almost always a lively debate on Capitol Hill. But where Israel is concerned, potential critics fall silent and there is hardly any debate at all.
"The problem (as John J. Mearsheimer, a political scientist at the University of Chicago and Stephen M. Walt, a professor of International affairs at the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard have argued) is that Israel has become a strategic liability with the end of the cold war and a moral pariah in its dealings with the Palestinians and, most recently, the Lebanese. Uncritical American support for its closest Middle East ally has damaged American credibility in the Arab world, encouraged terrorism, stymied the search for a solution to the Palestinian problem, and in every way made America’s international position weaker and more dangerous. It is simply a powerful interest group, made up of both Jews and gentiles, whose acknowledged purpose is to press Israel’s case within the United States and influence American foreign policy in ways that its members believe will benefit the Jewish state."
Israel is not simply one country among many, for example, just as Britain is not. Americans feel strong ties of history, religion, culture and, yes, sentiment, that they both recognize, but only in an airy, abstract way. They also seem to feel that, with Israel and its lobby pushed to the side, the desert will bloom with flowers. A peace deal with Syria would surely follow, with a resultant end to hostile activity by Hezbollah and Hamas. Next would come a Palestinian state, depriving Al Qaeda of its principal recruiting tool. (They wave away the idea that Islamic terrorism thrives for other reasons.) Well, yes, Iran does seem to be a problem, but both argue that no one should be particularly bothered by an Iran with nuclear weapons. And on and on.
“It is time,” as Mr. John J. Mearsheimer and Mr. Stephen M. Walt go on to say, “for the United States to treat Israel not as a special case but as a normal state, and to deal with it much as it deals with any other country.” But it’s not. And America won’t. That’s realism.
You misunderstand my question, WTH. My question dealt with how some folks who have this near-rabid anti-Jewish mindset, use it as an excuse in a lot of what they say in thier complaints against Isreal, or the Jewish people.
Isreal isn't the only one who has a powerful lobby defending them. Gun owners, the insurance industry, the tobacco industry, the Religious Reich, Hollywood, the music industry, etc., etc. also have lobbies at least as powerful as the 'pro-Isreal' lobby. So you might want to keep that in mind.
You misunderstand my question, WTH. My question dealt with how some folks who have this near-rabid anti-Jewish mindset, use it as an excuse in a lot of what they say in thier complaints against Isreal, or the Jewish people.
Isreal isn't the only one who has a powerful lobby defending them. Gun owners, the insurance industry, the tobacco industry, the Religious Reich, Hollywood, the music industry, etc., etc. also have lobbies at least as powerful as the 'pro-Isreal' lobby. So you might want to keep that in mind.
Remarkable that you would mention these other lobbies. Just like the National Rifle Association or the AARP, the Israel lobby relies on the traditional political weapons available to any special-interest group in pressing its agenda. Unlike these other lobbies though, it just happens to be unusually skillful and effective. As was previously stated before, "It is simply a powerful interest group, made up of both Jews and gentiles, whose acknowledged purpose is to press Israel’s case within the United States and influence American foreign policy in ways that its members believe will benefit the Jewish state.”
Forensic examination of the gas chambers at Auschwitz & Majdanek has debunked many claims regarding the Holocaust. But it has become a "thought crime" for someone to express any skeptism about those gas chamber stories. It is not too surprising to find that attitude in America increasing, as it already is in many countries because of their "Holocaust denial laws." However I personally don't believe it is a thought crime to question those stories anymore than it is a crime to question U.S. support for Israel and its brutal and foolish policies toward Palistine.
No, I didn't misunderstand your question. It might appear that way, until one realizes the Holocaust is merely the instrument being used to morally legitimatize the ongoing colonization of Palestinian Arab land by Jewish settlers, and it continues to be used to support Israeli policies in Palestine and to secure the funding of the Israeli military by the US Congress.
Speaking of funding the Israeli military, wouldn't it be much better for us to pull out of Iraq now and when Iran acquires a nuke, just let Israel bomb them into the stone age?
Think of all the lives and treasure it would save us.
Forensic examination of the gas chambers at Auschwitz & Majdanek has debunked many claims regarding the Holocaust
One of the debunkers became rather angry, when said bricks did indeed show traces of cyanide..
Some bricks came from a museum of sorts, a replica of some of the old buildings. The bricks hadn't even been hatched until well after the end of the war. But noooo.. these guys won't have any of that..
"look ma, no cyanide. smells like a conspiracy.."
The main guy who did the "sampling", using a hammer and chisel to remove bricks from what can be described as a morgue, and buildings that were constructed with new material well after the war, was surely qualified, and had a degree..
a degree in forensics? no.. a degree in chemistry? Nope.. how about physics? naw..
history. Only a Bachellors, at that..
That's what doesn't make sense. How a man with a degree in history..
can't figure out why bricks hatched in the sixties.. wouldn't have cyanide contamination in them in the forties. The bricks weren't even born yet..
Actually, 9 million persons were reported and documented killed in the Holocaust. That figure is according to the documentary film Nuit et Brouillard (Night and Fog, title used in the English-speaking world) (1955), whose historical advisers were the historian Henri Michel and the woman historian Olga Wormser-Migo
Then .... from that 9 million figure the death toll dwindled ....
6 million went through the chimneys of the ovens of Auschwitz because one of their close or remote forerunners was of the Israelite religion" writes Tibère Kremer in his preface to a text attributed to Dr. Miklos Nyiszli, "SS Obersturmführer Docteur Mengele / Journal d'un médecin déporté au crématorium d'Auschwitz" (SS Obersturmführer Doctor Mengele / Diary of a physician deported to the crematorium of Auschwitz), Les Temps modernes, March 1951, p. 1655.
... 3,000,000 Jews gassed according to David Susskind (1986) and according to Heritage, the most inmportant Californian Jewish weekly (1993)
And lately (as of 2002) there were only 510,000 persons killed, according to Fritjof Meyer (2002), of whom 356,000 were gassed Jews.
What gives the Holocaust such an appeal? The same thing that gives Jerry Springer and all the other tabloids, talk shows, et. al their appeal.
The Holocaust --- the invention of the quacks.
(At most one of these figures can be correct, but all the rest may potentially incite to hatred, and uttering them can lead to criminal prosecution in many European countries. But most importantly, it is considered highly offensive, if not outright illegal in those countries to make such compilations in the first place.)
Holocaust Denial- the Refuge of the Happily Undereducated.
and sadly, a job for a few educated..
Nothing wrong with majoring in history.. but, unless you add a degree in education or something..
not a whole lot to do with it, as far as employment is concerned. A person has to find something to do I guess. May as well prance about the world with a chisel and hammer, pulling out a few bricks..
But the professor guy.. he has a couple of legitimate degrees. Maybe like slick vic, he thought he found some hidden "truth" that was controversial enough to project him to the status of history mogdom..
He did manage to gather somewhat of a following.
I wonder if his followers fawn about him, being so "thankful" for da *man* to whom was revealed historical truth, like it hasn't been known since.. well, the 1930's..
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Catcup
Absolutely.
Catcup
This was exactly my experience. I sat in the same meetings and heard Martindale make the same exclamation: That the Jews of today are no more Jews than the Apache Indians. And yes, the Holocaust wa
Catcup
A slippery slope indeed, Tref.
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oldiesman
I think VP's motive was economic and political. Which by the way was probably a stupid move because it was The Word the Word and nothing but the Word ...
But yeah, I don't think he liked that the U.S. was (and still is) yearly shelling out $3-4 billion on Israel. He believed the Holocaust was used as a pretext to do that. " They are perpetual victims so let's keep shelling out billions for them. " And so forth.
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TheInvisibleDan
Baloney.
The so-called "gnostic" texts are of immense critical value to scholars and anyone exploring Christian history and
the development of Christian theology. Not all who explore the gnostic writings are driven by the rationale of seeking
out a "juicy conspiracy".
It's a good thing for historians and theologians today that certain writings had become "hidden" - otherwise, it is most likely that your bloodthirsty decendants would
have burned them along with the writers and admirers of these works.
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railroader II
Thank you Sunesis & Zshot. It is truly easier, as history proves many times over, to accept the lie than to admit the truth. Like you, I grew up around men who had the horrible honor of liberating some of those camps. To their dying day, they could not get rid of the nightmares of those days. When they came home, thye tried sharing what they found, but people would or could not accept the truth. As I mentioned on anotherb thread it is a case of self-denial on a grand scale,,,,,
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pond
I believe hate is real.
As a christian nation we have this thing that makes us think we are better than the other countires, and it is christian based.
A certain God that loves us more.
a self righteous attitude of having our nation built on this premise, that we are more than eveery other to this God.
this attitude the right wing as some call it is strong here.
those that do not believe it have never really come across trying to dismiss it.
it is why so many flock to this place, it is what the campaign says makes our country strong.
and it is a very strong sect, always has been may always be... and this mind set is why it is so easy to deny or dismiss the holocust.
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sirguessalot
What gives Holocaust denial such an appeal?
to add...
as ive often written about around here...
...human faith unfolds along a spectrum of sequential development
and to use a common basic 7 step model (such as used in the Book of Rev)
those who live at the 2nd step prioritize "exclusive grouping" above all other values
...and by "prioritize"...i mean that this is most direct path to one's "death-flinch"
this is NOT some secondary factor...but the primary base of one's internal value system...one's very sense of self relies on this value
"practice jewish meditation?!? over my dead body...I'll die before I..." etc...
mythic religions, racisms, ethnocentricities, nationalism...even strong self-identification within a sports team are indicators of this wavelength being primary in our life
the group's very specific myth is considered superior to all other myths, factors, and other information and experience
...which mostly looks like control over the words and language we use to translate our experience of the universe..such as believing a specific creation story is superior and truer than others
we see it all over TWI
especially in this whole holocaust denial and the biblical ignorance that comes from being anti-jewish
..or going on a mission to convert india's myths to our myth
in a sense...those in this place are more or less a servant to some very specific limited language set..."under the thumb" of specific words and associated mind-pictures
btw...this is natural and healthy way for a person to leave early childhood and enter the family sphere
...but not always healthy for adults in this post-modern era ... with power and influence over others
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What The Hey
Here' an interesting article by Mark Weber with his comments on 9/11 and how that all ties in with Israel.
Learning from the September 11 Attacks
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What The Hey
Here' an interesting article by Mark Weber with his comments on 9/11 and how that all ties in with Israel.
Learning from the September 11 Attacks
Paul Finleys comments are also very interesting to note:
Liberating America from Israel
Not only is there debate regarding the Holocaust, there is evidence that it was Stalin and not Hitler who was largely responsible for WWII. According to Mishca Shali, "Stalin dragged Hitler into war to force Europe into chaos and facilitate a communist revolution on the continent." ... The document, from October 1939, consists of three pages in English that purportedly reflect a dialogue in Moscow between a delegation from Czechoslovakia and a senior Soviet Foreign Ministry official. The Czechs tried to find out why the U.S.S.R. had signed the nonaggression treaty with Nazi Germany, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact of August 1939. A few days later the Germans invaded Poland, and World War II began.
(Sorry about the double post.)
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Lifted Up
Question...can someone define holocaust denial? specifically how are numbers involved? If the number killed was not 6 million but three million, one million, or even "only" a hundred thousand, does that make the hate any less? We have plentiful examples of statements Hitler himself made that plainly illustrate his hate and how inferior he considered the Jewish people, not worthy to be called human in his eyes (thus no human rights needed).
Many who argue that there were not as many as six million use that argument to deny much of the hate as well as the numbers. I think "The Myth of the Six Million" fit in that category. I don't see that connection; IMHO it was just as terrible even if there were only, say, a million or a hunderd thousand killed. Stories of serial killers who exterminated the lives of 10 or 15 people can sound just as greusome. Conversely, those who come unglued at the suggestion that the number might have been even a little lower add feul to the fire by basically saying that it wouldnt have been as bad had there been only 5 million, one million, etc.
Statements such as the followng, and so many, many more, should be the answer instead of arguing about numkbers IMO...
Hitler's Conversation with Josef Hell, 1922
When Hell asked Hitler what he intended doing if he ever had full freedom of action against the Jews, his response was:
"If I am ever really in power, the destruction of the Jews will be my first and most important job. As soon as I have power, I shall have gallows after gallows erected, for example, in Munich on the Marienplatz-as many of them as traffic allows. Then the Jews will be hanged one after another, and they will stay hanging until they stink. They will stay hanging as long as hygienically possible. As soon as they are untied, then the next group will follow and that will continue until the last Jew in Munich is exterminated. Exactly the same procedure will be followed in other cities until Germany is cleansed of the last Jew!"
Hitler Interview in the New York Staatszeitung, 1933.
"Why does the world shed crocodile’s tears over the richly merited fate of a small Jewish minority? … I ask Roosevelt, I ask the American people: Are you prepared to receive in your midst these well-poisoners of the German people and the universal spirit of Christianity? We would willingly give everyone of them a free steamer-ticket and a thousand-mark note for travelling expenses, if we could get rid of them."
In the latter statement Hitler himself tried to add significance to what he said was a small minority.
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WordWolf
So it's their OPINIONS that there would have BEEN no 9/11 attacks if the US didn't support Israel.
So, it's disapproval that the US has Israel as an ally and supports it that gives Holocaust denial its appeal?
They're angry about Israel as an ally so they rewrite history in retaliation, or to vent?
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What The Hey
The Palestinians call Israel’s 1948 war of independence their nakba, or catastrophic ethnic cleansing, or forced exile. The Israelis, for their part, have steadfastly rejected any suggestion of ethnic cleansing as calumny in all its anti-Semitic horror.
Historic revisionism is now under way. Without fanfare, just below the media radar screen, the Israeli Education Ministry has approved a textbook for Arab third-graders in Israel that concedes the war that gave birth to Israel was a “nakba” for the Palestinians. The textbook refers to the “expulsion” of some of the Palestinians and the “confiscation of many Arab-owned lands.”
Textbooks for Jewish Israelis in the same grade make no such verbal concession. But Israel’s “new wave” historians have been combing through fresh material now available from the British mandate period and Israeli archives that document the history of Israel before and after it became a state.
Long-lasting myths are being debunked.
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GarthP2000
And this debunks the Holocaust, ..... how?
And how do we know that a lot of this info re: Isreal isn't at least partly driven by the centuries-old, rabid hatred/fear of the Jewish people, a hatred/fear that seemed to have become almost, ... necessary for some people's existance. <_<
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What The Hey
Oh.... The Israel lobby makes sure of it! Working closely with members of Congress, public-policy organizations and journals of opinion, energetic, well-financed groups like the American Israel Public Affairs Committee and the American Jewish Committee, along with dozens of political-action committees, perpetuate the myth of Israel as an isolated, beleaguered state surrounded by enemies and in need of America’s unstinting financial and military support. This lobby is particularly adept at stifling debate before it begins. Whether the issue is abortion, arms control, affirmative action, gay rights, the environment, trade policy, health care, immigration or welfare, there is almost always a lively debate on Capitol Hill. But where Israel is concerned, potential critics fall silent and there is hardly any debate at all.
"The problem (as John J. Mearsheimer, a political scientist at the University of Chicago and Stephen M. Walt, a professor of International affairs at the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard have argued) is that Israel has become a strategic liability with the end of the cold war and a moral pariah in its dealings with the Palestinians and, most recently, the Lebanese. Uncritical American support for its closest Middle East ally has damaged American credibility in the Arab world, encouraged terrorism, stymied the search for a solution to the Palestinian problem, and in every way made America’s international position weaker and more dangerous. It is simply a powerful interest group, made up of both Jews and gentiles, whose acknowledged purpose is to press Israel’s case within the United States and influence American foreign policy in ways that its members believe will benefit the Jewish state."
Israel is not simply one country among many, for example, just as Britain is not. Americans feel strong ties of history, religion, culture and, yes, sentiment, that they both recognize, but only in an airy, abstract way. They also seem to feel that, with Israel and its lobby pushed to the side, the desert will bloom with flowers. A peace deal with Syria would surely follow, with a resultant end to hostile activity by Hezbollah and Hamas. Next would come a Palestinian state, depriving Al Qaeda of its principal recruiting tool. (They wave away the idea that Islamic terrorism thrives for other reasons.) Well, yes, Iran does seem to be a problem, but both argue that no one should be particularly bothered by an Iran with nuclear weapons. And on and on.
“It is time,” as Mr. John J. Mearsheimer and Mr. Stephen M. Walt go on to say, “for the United States to treat Israel not as a special case but as a normal state, and to deal with it much as it deals with any other country.” But it’s not. And America won’t. That’s realism.
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GarthP2000
You misunderstand my question, WTH. My question dealt with how some folks who have this near-rabid anti-Jewish mindset, use it as an excuse in a lot of what they say in thier complaints against Isreal, or the Jewish people.
Isreal isn't the only one who has a powerful lobby defending them. Gun owners, the insurance industry, the tobacco industry, the Religious Reich, Hollywood, the music industry, etc., etc. also have lobbies at least as powerful as the 'pro-Isreal' lobby. So you might want to keep that in mind.
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Ham
one of these "debunkers" claimed foul because he didn't find cyanide in then about twenty year old bricks..
in about 1990 or so..
The guy has or had a history degree..
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What The Hey
Remarkable that you would mention these other lobbies. Just like the National Rifle Association or the AARP, the Israel lobby relies on the traditional political weapons available to any special-interest group in pressing its agenda. Unlike these other lobbies though, it just happens to be unusually skillful and effective. As was previously stated before, "It is simply a powerful interest group, made up of both Jews and gentiles, whose acknowledged purpose is to press Israel’s case within the United States and influence American foreign policy in ways that its members believe will benefit the Jewish state.”
Forensic examination of the gas chambers at Auschwitz & Majdanek has debunked many claims regarding the Holocaust. But it has become a "thought crime" for someone to express any skeptism about those gas chamber stories. It is not too surprising to find that attitude in America increasing, as it already is in many countries because of their "Holocaust denial laws." However I personally don't believe it is a thought crime to question those stories anymore than it is a crime to question U.S. support for Israel and its brutal and foolish policies toward Palistine.
No, I didn't misunderstand your question. It might appear that way, until one realizes the Holocaust is merely the instrument being used to morally legitimatize the ongoing colonization of Palestinian Arab land by Jewish settlers, and it continues to be used to support Israeli policies in Palestine and to secure the funding of the Israeli military by the US Congress.
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oldiesman
Speaking of funding the Israeli military, wouldn't it be much better for us to pull out of Iraq now and when Iran acquires a nuke, just let Israel bomb them into the stone age?
Think of all the lives and treasure it would save us.
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Ham
One of the debunkers became rather angry, when said bricks did indeed show traces of cyanide..
Some bricks came from a museum of sorts, a replica of some of the old buildings. The bricks hadn't even been hatched until well after the end of the war. But noooo.. these guys won't have any of that..
"look ma, no cyanide. smells like a conspiracy.."
The main guy who did the "sampling", using a hammer and chisel to remove bricks from what can be described as a morgue, and buildings that were constructed with new material well after the war, was surely qualified, and had a degree..
a degree in forensics? no.. a degree in chemistry? Nope.. how about physics? naw..
history. Only a Bachellors, at that..
That's what doesn't make sense. How a man with a degree in history..
can't figure out why bricks hatched in the sixties.. wouldn't have cyanide contamination in them in the forties. The bricks weren't even born yet..
Only one description I can apply: moron..
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Ham
Even more amazing.. some people actually believe him..
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Lifted Up
Such as....
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WordWolf
For one thing,
the claim that Holocaust deniers approach things in a fashion even vaguely approaching logical.
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Ham
Why have logic, when you can have some juicy, scratch the itchy ears conspiratorial theory to get folks to round their wagons with yours..
well.. for one thing..
if they keep it up.. planning honeymoons and such around these sites as to remove bricks for forensic "analysis"..
pretty soon, the buildings won't even be there any more..
"see? Wasn't ever there.."
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What The Hey
Auschwitz: The Dwindling Death Toll
Actually, 9 million persons were reported and documented killed in the Holocaust. That figure is according to the documentary film Nuit et Brouillard (Night and Fog, title used in the English-speaking world) (1955), whose historical advisers were the historian Henri Michel and the woman historian Olga Wormser-Migo
Then .... from that 9 million figure the death toll dwindled ....
6 million went through the chimneys of the ovens of Auschwitz because one of their close or remote forerunners was of the Israelite religion" writes Tibère Kremer in his preface to a text attributed to Dr. Miklos Nyiszli, "SS Obersturmführer Docteur Mengele / Journal d'un médecin déporté au crématorium d'Auschwitz" (SS Obersturmführer Doctor Mengele / Diary of a physician deported to the crematorium of Auschwitz), Les Temps modernes, March 1951, p. 1655.
... 3,000,000 Jews gassed according to David Susskind (1986) and according to Heritage, the most inmportant Californian Jewish weekly (1993)
And lately (as of 2002) there were only 510,000 persons killed, according to Fritjof Meyer (2002), of whom 356,000 were gassed Jews.
What gives the Holocaust such an appeal? The same thing that gives Jerry Springer and all the other tabloids, talk shows, et. al their appeal.
The Holocaust --- the invention of the quacks.
(At most one of these figures can be correct, but all the rest may potentially incite to hatred, and uttering them can lead to criminal prosecution in many European countries. But most importantly, it is considered highly offensive, if not outright illegal in those countries to make such compilations in the first place.)
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WordWolf
Actually,
the most conservative numbers of the deaths of the Holocaust generally place the totals
at 9 million-11 million currently,
with one more general estimate as 17 million, and one measure in 1946 in France
counted the body count at 26 million.
In each of these numbers, Jews make up the largest percentage,
with numbers as low as 5 million (only counting those who can be confirmed as
having been Jews who were killed there and were confirmed so),
and most go higher (admitting records don't account for all the Jews killed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/Holocaust
Meanwhile, WTH's link is to Faurisson, who denied the gas chambers were
there and that gas chambers were used to kill Jews. We've already heard from
eyewitness accounts of them here, so I don't think we need to debunk that any
further, but we could.
Besides, the claims of those who wish to pretend the Holocaust didn't happen
have already been addressed in great detail:
http://en.wikipedia.org/Criticism_of_Holocaust_denial
==========
Holocaust Denial- the Refuge of the Happily Undereducated.
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Ham
and sadly, a job for a few educated..
Nothing wrong with majoring in history.. but, unless you add a degree in education or something..
not a whole lot to do with it, as far as employment is concerned. A person has to find something to do I guess. May as well prance about the world with a chisel and hammer, pulling out a few bricks..
But the professor guy.. he has a couple of legitimate degrees. Maybe like slick vic, he thought he found some hidden "truth" that was controversial enough to project him to the status of history mogdom..
He did manage to gather somewhat of a following.
I wonder if his followers fawn about him, being so "thankful" for da *man* to whom was revealed historical truth, like it hasn't been known since.. well, the 1930's..
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