This was exactly my experience. I sat in the same meetings and heard Martindale make the same exclamation: That the Jews of today are no more Jews than the Apache Indians. And yes, the Holocaust was routinely described as either a myth or an exaggeration.
I remember one particular Corps night where Martindale had a fit because the NK 8th grade class trip to DC was going to include a trip to the Holocaust Museum. He was absolutely rabid about it and made a big deal out of it with the school, and I think he made them find another activity for the Way staff kids to attend while their class went to the Holocaust Museum.
This bilious antisemitic hate literature from right-wing hate groups was routinely passed out to the Way Corps every year in training.
What should have given us pause was that this was nothing to do whatsoever with "rightly dividing" the Word.
But rather everything to do with the "wrongly dividing" of history.
And it was all plagiarised from other sources, not even a claim of an original thought here.
And Ron G - can you justify stealing America from its native inhabitants etc etc? Your argument about Israel and its leaders can lead down a dangerous road...
By the time WWII ended, a Jewish presence in Palestine/Israel was a fait accompli, many were already there due to the UK allowing almost unrestricted immigration during the early days of the mandate, and secret immigration during WWII.
The Jews were given the portion of the land (by the U.N.) that was settled mainly by Jews, and the Arabs were given land that was settled mainly by Arabs.
When the dust cleared after the newly proclaimed Israel beat back the combined Arab armed forces, the proposed nation of Palestine was occupied by the Kingdom of Jordan.
After Jordan "stole" the Palestinians' land, they occupied it until Israel beat back another attack and occupied it themselves.
Why no outcry over Jordan's occupied territories back then? Or for that matter the Turk's centuries long occupation?
Israel has hegemony over the Middle East? The country that many of it's neighbors say has no right to exist? Huh?
And Ron G - can you justify stealing America from its native inhabitants etc etc? Your argument about Israel and its leaders can lead down a dangerous road...
There was no justification for that, although some say it was our right "by conquest" which I, personally, don't exactly accept.
I really think it should and could have all happened much differently.
Trefor...
Have you ever heard of the Mandan Indians? You might find that interesting if you check it out.
The appeal is no guilt. LCM was always emphasizing this. During Christmas season he railed against people ringing bells outside stores which he felt was designed to make people give money based on guilt. I agree that we shouldn't give money because of guilt, but the way LCM handled that seemed to open other "cans of worms" especially since later he was OK with people giving 15% based on guilt. "You owe it to God!"
Ron G. is right that LCM said Jews were no more GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE than the Apachees. John Lynn said the same using the Ewoks instead of the Apachees. This fits the mystery that the body of Christ is of both Jews AND gentiles.
Eccl. 5:8 - If thou seest the oppression of the poor and the violent perverting of judgement and justice in a province, marvel not at the matter, for he that is higher than the highest regardeth; and there be higher than they.
That doesn't mean not to feel sorrow or compassion, but the same thing could happen to us couldn't it?
It's just that who displaced whom arguments can be made all over the place Ron G.
I haven't heard about the Mandan indians but then I hadn't heard of the Tonawanda indians either until I went to Niagara Falls NY. There are many tribes which don't appear to get much mention in history.
Genocide and ethnic cleansing are are alas not the sole preserve of the Nazis.
But having thought a little more deeply the Holocaust deniers have a lot more explaining to do about the overall way the Nazis behaved even to non-Jews and even to their own Aryan countrymen.
I wish I would make VPW and LCM and other deniers sit and watch the excellent BBC series The Nazis - A Warning from History which I have on DVD.
...And let's not forget Wierwille's own German heritage...and the great pride he consistantly demonstrated concerning his heritage...He often made references to th town where his ancesters came from and of the great German people...perhaps his nationalistic pride came into play when it cam to explaining the holocost? Who wants to believe that their own people could do such a thing?
What chaps my foot is that Veepee lived through that era...he should have known better.
Maya Angelou: "When you know better, you do better."
If you know better, and you DON'T change your behavior, you are making a deliberate decision to continue being a fkup-- without regard to the consequences to others.
I've never quite understood how anti-Semitsm has anything to do with believing the Bible, even while in TWI I had these lingering questions in the back of my mind (underneath my Way Brain).
To me, it's the opposite. Understanding who the Jews are according to the Old Testament gives one a greater appreciation of who they are, including those who are their descendants.
There was also the book, "The Myth of the Six Million," that TWI promoted, that propounded the theory that the Jews of today are really descendants of the Kazars who took on the Jewish religion in order not to side with either of their neighboring countries. I bought it, but today I find it more plausable that the Jews of today are very likely descendants of Israel and Judah.
I don't get why we were taught otherwise in TWI, other than just sheer prejudice. It's like how those white separatist groups think.
Outandabout, the reason its just like the white separatist groups think, is because that's where it came from. VP was a member of the Liberty Lobby - the front for white supremist groups in Washington, D.C. That's where he got his books on Jewish people, his revelation about the Illuminati, his revelation the country was going to fall in the late '70s, etc. I've written about this in other posts, I won't rehash it now.
From what I've read, DNA has now proved that the Jews who were dispersed and are in Israel, do have, whatever the characteristic genetic marker is. In other words, those books, the 13th Tribe and the myth of the 6 million are wrong about who the jews are - most of them are not from a tribe that converted. So, scratch that off the list.
Politics aside. So Arabs claim land was stolen- and I don't EXACTLY agree with the notion that we owe "them" a living or anything quite like that- I don't think that is really what its all about.
Hitler named his enemy. If he wasn't stupid enough to write it down in Mein Kamf perhaps we would not be talking about this. The "enemy" was, in HIS opinion, LESS THAN HUMAN.
Most of his men completely agreed with him.
Just a little side note, Martin Luther practically believed the same thing. At this point, I don't quite know what to think about that.
According to Hitler,
The Jews were genetically inferior.
The Jews were not ONLY genetically inferior, their genetic nature made their character UNREDEEMABLE.
The Jews could not be trusted.
The Jews were the CAUSE of Germany's trouble.
Under Hitler's regime, the Jews were driven from public office, they were driven from their homes into ghettos, they were SYSTEMATICALLY targeted for destruction- the "final solution" to the "Jewish problem". This is documented.
Not to mention the horrific medical "experiments" performed on them. I guess Hitler thought they were good for something. Ptooie.
Don't tell me the "solution" was gonna be a slap on the wrist, and a hearty "well, behave yourselves, boys". History records something far worse.
On the surface, I see how such an account can be hard to believe. Hard to believe, indeed. I STILL find it hard to think that people can be THAT evil. But I can think it.
"Modern" times are no better, except perhaps we take action a little bit faster.
We've had, what- at least two similar attempts in the last twenty years to eliminate an ethnic or unique group of people. Apparently, evil does not like to change- it likes it here.
"They" would just LOVE for us to "just get over it".
But what gives this denial phenomena such a "cult" appeal?
I think that it is a matter of trust. Anybody that has enough of an "open" mind in this regard, to even CONSIDER that people can be so devilish, are a threat.
A threat- no "implicit obedience".
Another threat- questioning orders, or the logic or sense of ANY dictate from immediate or higher superiors. Its your job, just to JUMP.
I honestly think the bastards are loaded with the same stinking spirits. Same tactics. "Well, Loy wasn't THAT bad. He did give us da verd.."
There have three major genocide sweeps in the last 30 years.
Cambodia, Rwanda-Burundi and Sudan.
We (U.S.) wrung our hands but did nothing to stop any of them. Millions died and are dying but because they have yellow and black skins, we sit on our hands.
Get some white people mucking it up (Bosnia) and suddenly its ethnic cleansing, while the African problems are called "tribal conflicts."
Def, quite true, and they did it in broad daylight.
I wasn't thinking of going back as far as Cambodia- but the enormity of that was about the same as that of the Jewish holocaust. One point something million human beings, tortured and murdered.
I don't wish to derail this thread and I mentioned the Mandans as an aside. Do a Google on them. Lewis and Clark discovered them. Many were white and their language included many Welsh words, phrases and constructs. Do a Google...you'll find it interesting.
"Whoever wishes to blame or attack me is entitled to do so. I regret I didn't have enough experience to totally control the movement. On the other hand, with our constant struggle, this had to be done together with others in the communist world to stop Kampuchea becoming Vietnamese.
"For the love of the nation and the people it was the right thing to do but in the course of our actions we made mistakes."
Yep. Several million "mistakes".
Those are the words of Pol Pot.
And in the end, it was not much more than "I regret I couldn't fully control the movement"- or rather, "the PEOPLE made me do it".
Denial, to the end.. even from the leader of the cult..
Cripe, that almost would sound like Hitler's "acceptance speech" at Nuremberg had he survived. Just substitue "Aryan" for "communist", "Germany" for "Kampuchea" and "Jewish" for "Vietnamese".
Staff and Corps- if the time ever comes, your wonderful BOT and "leadership" will turn you over like there's no tomorrow- "the PEOPLE made us do it". "It was THEIR idea, we just went along with the gag..."
For Loy's "victory speech" simply substitute "the one true household" for "the communist world", "Headquarters" for "Kapuchea" and "over-run with devil spirits" for "Vietnamese".
Thanks Ron G will do a google as you suggest as a Welsh indian tribe certainly sounds interesting!
And in Mr. Hammeroni's reference to Martin Luther it's quite true. Luther called amongst other things for genocide against rebellious peasants. I also once saw a book that had been printed during WW2 entitled Martin Luther - Hitler's Spiritual Ancestor.
Also there was another Martin Luther who was recorded as having attended the Wansee Conference where the final solution was decided upon.
And VPW always counted Martin Luther as one of his heroes - like Luther pinned his 95 theses on the Church in Wittenburg, so VPW "pinned" a copy of Jesus Christ is NOT God to the door of his old church in Van Wert...
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Catcup
Absolutely.
Catcup
This was exactly my experience. I sat in the same meetings and heard Martindale make the same exclamation: That the Jews of today are no more Jews than the Apache Indians. And yes, the Holocaust wa
Catcup
A slippery slope indeed, Tref.
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Catcup
This was exactly my experience. I sat in the same meetings and heard Martindale make the same exclamation: That the Jews of today are no more Jews than the Apache Indians. And yes, the Holocaust was routinely described as either a myth or an exaggeration.
I remember one particular Corps night where Martindale had a fit because the NK 8th grade class trip to DC was going to include a trip to the Holocaust Museum. He was absolutely rabid about it and made a big deal out of it with the school, and I think he made them find another activity for the Way staff kids to attend while their class went to the Holocaust Museum.
This bilious antisemitic hate literature from right-wing hate groups was routinely passed out to the Way Corps every year in training.
I can't believe we sat still for it.
But so did nearly all of Germany.
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Ron G.
I seem to recall LCM saying "The Jews are no more GODS CHOSEN PEOPLE than the apache Indians", but I could have been mistaken.
I won't deny the holocaust, but I have some questions.
1. Does it justify stealing Palestine from the Palestinians? (Wouldn't giving them a piece of Germany been more morally justifiable?)
2. Does it justify Isreali hegemony over the rest of the middle east?
3.Does it justify sending BILLIONS of American tax dollars, weapons and advisors to prop up a two bit terrorist dictator like Ariel Sharon?
Just curious.
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Trefor Heywood
What should have given us pause was that this was nothing to do whatsoever with "rightly dividing" the Word.
But rather everything to do with the "wrongly dividing" of history.
And it was all plagiarised from other sources, not even a claim of an original thought here.
And Ron G - can you justify stealing America from its native inhabitants etc etc? Your argument about Israel and its leaders can lead down a dangerous road...
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Catcup
A slippery slope indeed, Tref.
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Oakspear
By the time WWII ended, a Jewish presence in Palestine/Israel was a fait accompli, many were already there due to the UK allowing almost unrestricted immigration during the early days of the mandate, and secret immigration during WWII.
The Jews were given the portion of the land (by the U.N.) that was settled mainly by Jews, and the Arabs were given land that was settled mainly by Arabs.
When the dust cleared after the newly proclaimed Israel beat back the combined Arab armed forces, the proposed nation of Palestine was occupied by the Kingdom of Jordan.
After Jordan "stole" the Palestinians' land, they occupied it until Israel beat back another attack and occupied it themselves.
Why no outcry over Jordan's occupied territories back then? Or for that matter the Turk's centuries long occupation?
Israel has hegemony over the Middle East? The country that many of it's neighbors say has no right to exist? Huh?
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Ron G.
There was no justification for that, although some say it was our right "by conquest" which I, personally, don't exactly accept.
I really think it should and could have all happened much differently.
Trefor...
Have you ever heard of the Mandan Indians? You might find that interesting if you check it out.
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johniam
The appeal is no guilt. LCM was always emphasizing this. During Christmas season he railed against people ringing bells outside stores which he felt was designed to make people give money based on guilt. I agree that we shouldn't give money because of guilt, but the way LCM handled that seemed to open other "cans of worms" especially since later he was OK with people giving 15% based on guilt. "You owe it to God!"
Ron G. is right that LCM said Jews were no more GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE than the Apachees. John Lynn said the same using the Ewoks instead of the Apachees. This fits the mystery that the body of Christ is of both Jews AND gentiles.
Eccl. 5:8 - If thou seest the oppression of the poor and the violent perverting of judgement and justice in a province, marvel not at the matter, for he that is higher than the highest regardeth; and there be higher than they.
That doesn't mean not to feel sorrow or compassion, but the same thing could happen to us couldn't it?
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Trefor Heywood
It's just that who displaced whom arguments can be made all over the place Ron G.
I haven't heard about the Mandan indians but then I hadn't heard of the Tonawanda indians either until I went to Niagara Falls NY. There are many tribes which don't appear to get much mention in history.
Genocide and ethnic cleansing are are alas not the sole preserve of the Nazis.
But having thought a little more deeply the Holocaust deniers have a lot more explaining to do about the overall way the Nazis behaved even to non-Jews and even to their own Aryan countrymen.
I wish I would make VPW and LCM and other deniers sit and watch the excellent BBC series The Nazis - A Warning from History which I have on DVD.
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GrouchoMarxJr
...And let's not forget Wierwille's own German heritage...and the great pride he consistantly demonstrated concerning his heritage...He often made references to th town where his ancesters came from and of the great German people...perhaps his nationalistic pride came into play when it cam to explaining the holocost? Who wants to believe that their own people could do such a thing?
What chaps my foot is that Veepee lived through that era...he should have known better.
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Catcup
He admitted he knew better.
Maya Angelou: "When you know better, you do better."
If you know better, and you DON'T change your behavior, you are making a deliberate decision to continue being a fkup-- without regard to the consequences to others.
Selfish behavior, IMO.
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outandabout
I've never quite understood how anti-Semitsm has anything to do with believing the Bible, even while in TWI I had these lingering questions in the back of my mind (underneath my Way Brain).
To me, it's the opposite. Understanding who the Jews are according to the Old Testament gives one a greater appreciation of who they are, including those who are their descendants.
There was also the book, "The Myth of the Six Million," that TWI promoted, that propounded the theory that the Jews of today are really descendants of the Kazars who took on the Jewish religion in order not to side with either of their neighboring countries. I bought it, but today I find it more plausable that the Jews of today are very likely descendants of Israel and Judah.
I don't get why we were taught otherwise in TWI, other than just sheer prejudice. It's like how those white separatist groups think.
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Sunesis
Outandabout, the reason its just like the white separatist groups think, is because that's where it came from. VP was a member of the Liberty Lobby - the front for white supremist groups in Washington, D.C. That's where he got his books on Jewish people, his revelation about the Illuminati, his revelation the country was going to fall in the late '70s, etc. I've written about this in other posts, I won't rehash it now.
From what I've read, DNA has now proved that the Jews who were dispersed and are in Israel, do have, whatever the characteristic genetic marker is. In other words, those books, the 13th Tribe and the myth of the 6 million are wrong about who the jews are - most of them are not from a tribe that converted. So, scratch that off the list.
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Ham
Politics aside. So Arabs claim land was stolen- and I don't EXACTLY agree with the notion that we owe "them" a living or anything quite like that- I don't think that is really what its all about.
Hitler named his enemy. If he wasn't stupid enough to write it down in Mein Kamf perhaps we would not be talking about this. The "enemy" was, in HIS opinion, LESS THAN HUMAN.
Most of his men completely agreed with him.
Just a little side note, Martin Luther practically believed the same thing. At this point, I don't quite know what to think about that.
According to Hitler,
The Jews were genetically inferior.
The Jews were not ONLY genetically inferior, their genetic nature made their character UNREDEEMABLE.
The Jews could not be trusted.
The Jews were the CAUSE of Germany's trouble.
Under Hitler's regime, the Jews were driven from public office, they were driven from their homes into ghettos, they were SYSTEMATICALLY targeted for destruction- the "final solution" to the "Jewish problem". This is documented.
Not to mention the horrific medical "experiments" performed on them. I guess Hitler thought they were good for something. Ptooie.
Don't tell me the "solution" was gonna be a slap on the wrist, and a hearty "well, behave yourselves, boys". History records something far worse.
On the surface, I see how such an account can be hard to believe. Hard to believe, indeed. I STILL find it hard to think that people can be THAT evil. But I can think it.
"Modern" times are no better, except perhaps we take action a little bit faster.
We've had, what- at least two similar attempts in the last twenty years to eliminate an ethnic or unique group of people. Apparently, evil does not like to change- it likes it here.
"They" would just LOVE for us to "just get over it".
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Ham
But what gives this denial phenomena such a "cult" appeal?
I think that it is a matter of trust. Anybody that has enough of an "open" mind in this regard, to even CONSIDER that people can be so devilish, are a threat.
A threat- no "implicit obedience".
Another threat- questioning orders, or the logic or sense of ANY dictate from immediate or higher superiors. Its your job, just to JUMP.
I honestly think the bastards are loaded with the same stinking spirits. Same tactics. "Well, Loy wasn't THAT bad. He did give us da verd.."
Same frigging denial.
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Ham
It would be fitting if Martinpuke had to spend the rest of his days as a janitor in one of those dreaded holocaust museums..
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def59
There have three major genocide sweeps in the last 30 years.
Cambodia, Rwanda-Burundi and Sudan.
We (U.S.) wrung our hands but did nothing to stop any of them. Millions died and are dying but because they have yellow and black skins, we sit on our hands.
Get some white people mucking it up (Bosnia) and suddenly its ethnic cleansing, while the African problems are called "tribal conflicts."
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Ham
Def, quite true, and they did it in broad daylight.
I wasn't thinking of going back as far as Cambodia- but the enormity of that was about the same as that of the Jewish holocaust. One point something million human beings, tortured and murdered.
Maybe we have not learned the lesson, yet.
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Ron G.
Trefor...
I don't wish to derail this thread and I mentioned the Mandans as an aside. Do a Google on them. Lewis and Clark discovered them. Many were white and their language included many Welsh words, phrases and constructs. Do a Google...you'll find it interesting.
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Ham
I have read some of the junk people have written.
To me, the attitude of "well, boys will be boys" is reprehensible.
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Ham
"Whoever wishes to blame or attack me is entitled to do so. I regret I didn't have enough experience to totally control the movement. On the other hand, with our constant struggle, this had to be done together with others in the communist world to stop Kampuchea becoming Vietnamese.
"For the love of the nation and the people it was the right thing to do but in the course of our actions we made mistakes."
Yep. Several million "mistakes".
Those are the words of Pol Pot.
And in the end, it was not much more than "I regret I couldn't fully control the movement"- or rather, "the PEOPLE made me do it".
Denial, to the end.. even from the leader of the cult..
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Ham
Cripe, that almost would sound like Hitler's "acceptance speech" at Nuremberg had he survived. Just substitue "Aryan" for "communist", "Germany" for "Kampuchea" and "Jewish" for "Vietnamese".
Staff and Corps- if the time ever comes, your wonderful BOT and "leadership" will turn you over like there's no tomorrow- "the PEOPLE made us do it". "It was THEIR idea, we just went along with the gag..."
Hope you have a good story.
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Ham
For Loy's "victory speech" simply substitute "the one true household" for "the communist world", "Headquarters" for "Kapuchea" and "over-run with devil spirits" for "Vietnamese".
Fits to a "T".
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Trefor Heywood
Thanks Ron G will do a google as you suggest as a Welsh indian tribe certainly sounds interesting!
And in Mr. Hammeroni's reference to Martin Luther it's quite true. Luther called amongst other things for genocide against rebellious peasants. I also once saw a book that had been printed during WW2 entitled Martin Luther - Hitler's Spiritual Ancestor.
Also there was another Martin Luther who was recorded as having attended the Wansee Conference where the final solution was decided upon.
And VPW always counted Martin Luther as one of his heroes - like Luther pinned his 95 theses on the Church in Wittenburg, so VPW "pinned" a copy of Jesus Christ is NOT God to the door of his old church in Van Wert...
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Trefor Heywood
Well Ron G there are pages supporting the legend and pages decrying it.
The most convincing for me is:
An analysis by a Welsh speaker
But it's still a romantic thought!
:)--> 
:P-->
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