Belle: Well, Dovey, you're in good company. You and the pope can sit around with all the TWIts and discuss how we're all stoopid for enjoying these fantasy stories.
First just for the record Dovey is my sisterdove not to be confused with me.(I know it is hard to keep us doves straight at times) But don't want her to take the heat for anything I say.... Now that thats clear....
Don't believe I said anyone was stupid in case you missed it the first time I think I said- "Sorry I just don't see the attraction"
Belle: It's okay if you don't like Harry, but I wonder what the purpose was for your comments. I mean, if you don't like Harry then why even bother?
Because it is a public board for opinions about topics and I have one to post. Just like you do. Using the same logic if you don't like the Way why do you bother posting? Excuse me since when do we have to like something to post about it I thought that was the purpose of these threads silly me.
Belle: Do you want us to try to convince you to like him or did you just want to throw a wet blanket on our enthusiasm or were you looking to start a fight?
A. No I will never see the attraction in Harry Potter. As I said "I I I I I "ceased to be fascinated with this stuff long ago.
B. No Again! If you are enthused about wizards,spells,brooms and the like, have at it your right! I was offering another point of view which is- I think it is counter productive for Christians since it does not agree with biblical teaching. Supporting it tends to give the impression that it is ok to head down that path so to speak. That is not the message of the Bible and not the message I want to support as a Christian. My choice.
C. Nope I think it was you who came out swinging Raf was correct I do not like the stuff. Thats putting it a nice way.
Dovey, are you implying here that anyone who does like Harry Potter is allowing the "spiritual kingdom" to hold fascination over their lives (as opposed to, say, just enjoying a well-written book)?
I'd have to say no again! It's not that simple as reading a book its a longer process. I can't or won't speak for others as to what they allow in their lives only for myself. For me myself and I I am not drawn to waste the time reading and thinking on such stuff that is of no profit,it is opposition to biblical values. I also would not promote or approve of books that tell stories promoting men or women that molest children as ok for the same reason, there is no moral value in either. Who sets the standard for what and how much evil we allow children to be a part of. This dumbing down of society to relax and accept more and more spiritual trash is growing worse day by day. What ever became of watch?, be vigilant?
If I were the adversary I think I would try to get this clever idea into peoples thoughts too. Then the ones called by God to be more than conquerors will simply roll over and go to sleep . If we relax then who prey tell takes charge? Maybe the time is now again to say once again On Guard!!
Can you imagine if the scripture reflected this view.
Relax take it easy! Your adversary the Devil isn't going to bother you...
Or this one:
Finally my brother relax take it easy! there are no wiles of the Devil, For we wrestle not, even against flesh and blood, so relax!Take it easy!
Absolutely and I have the right to express my opinion and concerns also just like you do when you write about how wonderful they are. It's a public board and opinions and comments are permitted. I don't remember offering any criticism of you, my opinion was directed at the book.
Actually, Dove, I think your criticisms went beyond the book; you basically painted the book as a tool of the devil designed to distract people from their Biblical responsibility to be vigilant. It's a logical extension that anyone who enjoys the books has surrendered that Biblical responsibility, a contention I reject.
I can't or won't speak for others as to what they allow in their lives only for myself. For me myself and I I am not drawn to waste the time reading and thinking on such stuff that is of no profit,it is opposition to biblical values
I think the me myself and I set the context of my remarks. I think the Bible speaks for itself regarding the subjects of Harry Potter books and where they come from. I don't reject scripture... and I won't Rah Rah things that clearly are not from the God of the Bible.
You also called us participants in the "dumbing down of America" and likened us to promoting stories men and women who molest children. That's personal and it's insulting.
quote:
I also would not promote or approve of books that tell stories promoting men or women that molest children as ok for the same reason, there is no moral value in either. Who sets the standard for what and how much evil we allow children to be a part of. This dumbing down of society to relax and accept more and more spiritual trash is growing worse day by day. What ever became of watch?, be vigilant?
You don't like the books, which is fine, but how much do you really know about the books? What is your source? There are actually some very good lessons in the books.
As Rascal asked earlier, do you consider Hanzel and Gretle, Rapunzel and the evil enchantress, Sleeping Beauty, Snow White and the like devilish and evil? There's a tale about a fisherman who was granted numerous wishes by an enchanted prince. With each wish demanded by the man’s wife, they were given greater things, until the woman demanded too high a price and then they were restored back to their leaky home because she was never satisfied. Each story, as I see it, has a moral, sometimes cleverly hidden, at other times obvious. Some are simplistic: that greed leads to ruin, good faith must not be abused, and beauty is only skin deep. Others are more profound.
These stories can develop a strong sense of right and wrong, respect for courage and ingenuity, and a realization that all evil deeds lead to destruction. They also stimulate the imagination and encourage kids to read who otherwise would have no interest in reading and developing their skills and intelligence. Because most families as a whole enjoy the books they encourage "togetherness" and draw parents and children closer together. Is that such a bad thing?
quote:
"It is our choices, Harry Potter, which determine who we are, not our abilities"
Dumbledore in The Chamber of Secrets. Not bad advice for a generation who is being brought up under peer pressure, is it?
quote:
In our fast-paced world where the media controls much of our lives through television and movies, this aspect is sadly lacking. Children are fed slapstick comedies like Home Alone, or faced with mature content on television. Their peers influence them to be rebellious and selfish. The reason Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings have become so well known and cherished in the last few years is because we have been deprived of them for so long. Our society is starving for stories with good values which challenge the reader to become a better person.
If it takes Hogwarts, Frodo Baggins, or Rapunzel to do it, so be it.
But it's Steves thread and he would prefer to read his books in peace without any comments except pro Harry Potter ones. I'll defer to that request there.
Now here you all can say what you want. And I'm sure you will. :D--> -->
Well, WD, I never said anything about you having to make a new thread.
And please don't mistake my tone in my previous post - that post was intended to be 'tone neutral' - no animosity, no emotion, just a simple statement of fact.
I can only speak for myself, and not for the overly-religious, legalistic, morally superior, condescending decisions made by others...
Ummm... no, it doesn't work that way. You don't want to be insulting, and I think we all see and appreciate that. But you're doing it nonetheless.
You won't speak for the decisions anyone else makes, but you will not contribute to the dumbing down of society. You won't speak for anyone else on this, but you won't participate in this devilish deception. You won't speak for anyone else on this, but you won't surrender your responsibility to be vigilant. You won't speak for anyone else, but you won't reject scripture.
In saying each of those things, you are saying that those Christians who disagree with you are contributing to the dumbing down of society, participating in a devilish deception, surrendering their responsibility to be vigilant, and rejecting scripture. If that's what you think, fine, stand by it. But you can't argue that it's not what you're saying, because it is precisely what you're saying.
The most destructive doctrine ever foisted off on people came from the scriptures dove....
Forced sex, forced abortion, forced divorces, forced abandonment of ones children...justification of adultery, justification of the destroying of ones brother, justification of covering felonies.....
All doctrines taught in twi, all doctrines backed up with sciptures, all destructive and evil.
It doesn`t have to have witches and Goblins contained within to be pure evil evil and capable of great destruction..
Likewise, something doesn`t necessarilly have to have scripture to be wholsom and spiritual...
Ever read the Chronicles of Narnia? Pure Gold, all a spiritual allegory, yet never are scriptures or God referenced ....but yet, all about them.
They too contain magic, dragons, centaurs, witches, talking animals.....and yet are widely embraced by Christians world wide as an outstanding tool for inspiring children ....building within them a love for God and understanding of the spiritual battle that is unparalleled.
Scripture doesn`t garauntee wholesomeness , nor the lack of it necessarily indicate darknes....Goodness we have all certainly witnessed THAT first hand....
I have not forgotten you but I must take leave for a bit. That work thing. It takes a while to get to everyones posts in this gang bang. Patience please.
But quickly
Once again you fail to read.
Belle
You also called us participants in the "dumbing down of America" and likened us to promoting stories men and women who molest children.
Quote:
This dumbing down of society to relax and accept more and more spiritual trash is growing worse day by day.
Did I miss someones name somewhere? I think not. Simply a statement that I believe to be true. You may believe otherwise. By the way the dumbing has no relation to IQ I was speaking spiritually and the dumbing well we know the source from scripture.
Quote:
I also would not promote or approve of books that tell stories promoting men or women that molest children as ok for the same reason, there is no moral value in either.
"I" speaks for me what part of I don't you get for the record again I does not mean anyone other than me Whitedove....
Comic books, plays, movies, all secular entertainment can be seen as a distraction from Biblical admonitions. Ah, but this one is promoting witchcraft, you say? Harry Potter has as much in common with the real Wiccan religion as it has with nuclear physics.
The most destructive doctrine ever foisted off on people came from the scriptures dove....
Forced sex, forced abortion, forced divorces, forced abandonment of ones children...justification of adultery, justification of the destroying of ones brother, justification of covering felonies.....
Wrong!!!!
None of that is in the scriptures nor is it promoted by them. It did not come from scripture at least not my Bible.....
As a card carrying witch/wiccan, IMHO, Harry Potter isn't the real magical thing and J. K. Rawling has crafted some fine characters that have heart, a sense of adventure, and loyalty.
The devil doesn't make us screw up, fear or rationalation in the moment makes us do things that cause harm. Us being defined as human beings.
Wiccans make major contributions to humanity and are very concerned about taking care of the ONE GOD's creations (earth).
Come what may, I've said my belief on this subject.
You don't have to mention names to call us stupid and accuse us of being responsible for the "dumbing down of America". Since Raf said it so eloquently and clearly I'll just refer to his post:
quote:
You won't speak for the decisions anyone else makes, but you will not contribute to the dumbing down of society. You won't speak for anyone else on this, but you won't participate in this devilish deception. You won't speak for anyone else on this, but you won't surrender your responsibility to be vigilant. You won't speak for anyone else, but you won't reject scripture.
In saying each of those things, you are saying that those Christians who disagree with you are contributing to the dumbing down of society, participating in a devilish deception, surrendering their responsibility to be vigilant, and rejecting scripture. If that's what you think, fine, stand by it. But you can't argue that it's not what you're saying, because it is precisely what you're saying.
You also haven't answered Rascal and my questions about the fairy tales and stories that you most likely grew up with. Where do YOU draw the line?
It most certainly was dove and not just taught to me....
I am NOT a liar and do not apreciate your inferance of such....
If you need me to start another thread stating the scriptures used to force and justify these actions I will of course oblige....though I have posted them numerous times before.
Now, Rascal, no need to start yet another thread. :)--> I'll help you with the scriptures used to promote and justify these things. Just let me finish this one last report.
Harry has promoted reading, no one is going to warlock/witch prep school. Muslims also used to get a long with Jews ....before the christians started being overly righteous...yeesh
Sorry the Bible does not support forced anything only free will decisions. Anything misquoted is not truth. The fact that people may misrepresent something does not alter the truth of the origional. As I said before My math teacher may have not been a moral person but the math he taught was still none the less true. There are no scriptures for forced rape in the Bible maybe in someones idea of the scriptures but not in the Bible. A big difference.
You said Quote:The most destructive doctrine ever foisted off on people came from the scriptures dove....
Forced sex, forced abortion, forced divorces, forced abandonment of ones children...justification of adultery, justification of the destroying of ones brother, justification of covering felonies.....
Sorry it did not come from scripture give me a chapter and verse that supports any of those ideas from the Bible.
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WhiteDove
Raf: I wasn't aware one hope precluded another Hope.
You are correct they don't. Two different waits I'll be doing this they will do that, however it is possible some will be doing both just not me.
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WhiteDove
Belle: Well, Dovey, you're in good company. You and the pope can sit around with all the TWIts and discuss how we're all stoopid for enjoying these fantasy stories.
First just for the record Dovey is my sisterdove not to be confused with me.(I know it is hard to keep us doves straight at times) But don't want her to take the heat for anything I say.... Now that thats clear....
Don't believe I said anyone was stupid in case you missed it the first time I think I said- "Sorry I just don't see the attraction"
Belle: It's okay if you don't like Harry, but I wonder what the purpose was for your comments. I mean, if you don't like Harry then why even bother?
Because it is a public board for opinions about topics and I have one to post. Just like you do. Using the same logic if you don't like the Way why do you bother posting? Excuse me since when do we have to like something to post about it I thought that was the purpose of these threads silly me.
Belle: Do you want us to try to convince you to like him or did you just want to throw a wet blanket on our enthusiasm or were you looking to start a fight?
A. No I will never see the attraction in Harry Potter. As I said "I I I I I "ceased to be fascinated with this stuff long ago.
B. No Again! If you are enthused about wizards,spells,brooms and the like, have at it your right! I was offering another point of view which is- I think it is counter productive for Christians since it does not agree with biblical teaching. Supporting it tends to give the impression that it is ok to head down that path so to speak. That is not the message of the Bible and not the message I want to support as a Christian. My choice.
C. Nope I think it was you who came out swinging Raf was correct I do not like the stuff. Thats putting it a nice way.
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WhiteDove
Dovey, are you implying here that anyone who does like Harry Potter is allowing the "spiritual kingdom" to hold fascination over their lives (as opposed to, say, just enjoying a well-written book)?
I'd have to say no again! It's not that simple as reading a book its a longer process. I can't or won't speak for others as to what they allow in their lives only for myself. For me myself and I I am not drawn to waste the time reading and thinking on such stuff that is of no profit,it is opposition to biblical values. I also would not promote or approve of books that tell stories promoting men or women that molest children as ok for the same reason, there is no moral value in either. Who sets the standard for what and how much evil we allow children to be a part of. This dumbing down of society to relax and accept more and more spiritual trash is growing worse day by day. What ever became of watch?, be vigilant?
If I were the adversary I think I would try to get this clever idea into peoples thoughts too. Then the ones called by God to be more than conquerors will simply roll over and go to sleep . If we relax then who prey tell takes charge? Maybe the time is now again to say once again On Guard!!
Can you imagine if the scripture reflected this view.
Relax take it easy! Your adversary the Devil isn't going to bother you...
Or this one:
Finally my brother relax take it easy! there are no wiles of the Devil, For we wrestle not, even against flesh and blood, so relax!Take it easy!
Relax! take it easy a wizard here a spell there.
RELAX?.. Take it Easy? ... No Thanks!
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Steve!
I don't see anyone sticking a gun in your face and saying, "Read those Harry Potter books or else!"
Just like you have a right to not read them, we have a right to read them - and without criticism, I might add.
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WhiteDove
Absolutely and I have the right to express my opinion and concerns also just like you do when you write about how wonderful they are. It's a public board and opinions and comments are permitted. I don't remember offering any criticism of you, my opinion was directed at the book.
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rascal
We are still continuing this on the other thread. There is some really good input to be discussed.
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Raf
Actually, Dove, I think your criticisms went beyond the book; you basically painted the book as a tool of the devil designed to distract people from their Biblical responsibility to be vigilant. It's a logical extension that anyone who enjoys the books has surrendered that Biblical responsibility, a contention I reject.
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WhiteDove
Raf if ya look back I believe I said Quote;
I can't or won't speak for others as to what they allow in their lives only for myself. For me myself and I I am not drawn to waste the time reading and thinking on such stuff that is of no profit,it is opposition to biblical values
I think the me myself and I set the context of my remarks. I think the Bible speaks for itself regarding the subjects of Harry Potter books and where they come from. I don't reject scripture... and I won't Rah Rah things that clearly are not from the God of the Bible.
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Belle
You also called us participants in the "dumbing down of America" and likened us to promoting stories men and women who molest children. That's personal and it's insulting.
You don't like the books, which is fine, but how much do you really know about the books? What is your source? There are actually some very good lessons in the books.
As Rascal asked earlier, do you consider Hanzel and Gretle, Rapunzel and the evil enchantress, Sleeping Beauty, Snow White and the like devilish and evil? There's a tale about a fisherman who was granted numerous wishes by an enchanted prince. With each wish demanded by the man’s wife, they were given greater things, until the woman demanded too high a price and then they were restored back to their leaky home because she was never satisfied. Each story, as I see it, has a moral, sometimes cleverly hidden, at other times obvious. Some are simplistic: that greed leads to ruin, good faith must not be abused, and beauty is only skin deep. Others are more profound.
These stories can develop a strong sense of right and wrong, respect for courage and ingenuity, and a realization that all evil deeds lead to destruction. They also stimulate the imagination and encourage kids to read who otherwise would have no interest in reading and developing their skills and intelligence. Because most families as a whole enjoy the books they encourage "togetherness" and draw parents and children closer together. Is that such a bad thing?
Dumbledore in The Chamber of Secrets. Not bad advice for a generation who is being brought up under peer pressure, is it?
from a Christians For Harry Potter website
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WhiteDove
Thanks Rascal
But it's Steves thread and he would prefer to read his books in peace without any comments except pro Harry Potter ones. I'll defer to that request there.
Now here you all can say what you want. And I'm sure you will.
:D--> 
-->
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Steve!
Well, WD, I never said anything about you having to make a new thread.
And please don't mistake my tone in my previous post - that post was intended to be 'tone neutral' - no animosity, no emotion, just a simple statement of fact.
I apologize if it came out different than that.
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Raf
Dove,
I can only speak for myself, and not for the overly-religious, legalistic, morally superior, condescending decisions made by others...
Ummm... no, it doesn't work that way. You don't want to be insulting, and I think we all see and appreciate that. But you're doing it nonetheless.
You won't speak for the decisions anyone else makes, but you will not contribute to the dumbing down of society. You won't speak for anyone else on this, but you won't participate in this devilish deception. You won't speak for anyone else on this, but you won't surrender your responsibility to be vigilant. You won't speak for anyone else, but you won't reject scripture.
In saying each of those things, you are saying that those Christians who disagree with you are contributing to the dumbing down of society, participating in a devilish deception, surrendering their responsibility to be vigilant, and rejecting scripture. If that's what you think, fine, stand by it. But you can't argue that it's not what you're saying, because it is precisely what you're saying.
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rascal
The most destructive doctrine ever foisted off on people came from the scriptures dove....
Forced sex, forced abortion, forced divorces, forced abandonment of ones children...justification of adultery, justification of the destroying of ones brother, justification of covering felonies.....
All doctrines taught in twi, all doctrines backed up with sciptures, all destructive and evil.
It doesn`t have to have witches and Goblins contained within to be pure evil evil and capable of great destruction..
Likewise, something doesn`t necessarilly have to have scripture to be wholsom and spiritual...
Ever read the Chronicles of Narnia? Pure Gold, all a spiritual allegory, yet never are scriptures or God referenced ....but yet, all about them.
They too contain magic, dragons, centaurs, witches, talking animals.....and yet are widely embraced by Christians world wide as an outstanding tool for inspiring children ....building within them a love for God and understanding of the spiritual battle that is unparalleled.
Scripture doesn`t garauntee wholesomeness , nor the lack of it necessarily indicate darknes....Goodness we have all certainly witnessed THAT first hand....
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oldiesman
I have zero interest in Harry Potter books but I'd bet money that they're at least helping people improve their reading skills.
And what a way to make money...oh gowd what a goldmine
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WhiteDove
Belle and Rascal
I have not forgotten you but I must take leave for a bit. That work thing. It takes a while to get to everyones posts in this gang bang. Patience please.
But quickly
Once again you fail to read.
Belle
You also called us participants in the "dumbing down of America" and likened us to promoting stories men and women who molest children.
Quote:
This dumbing down of society to relax and accept more and more spiritual trash is growing worse day by day.
Did I miss someones name somewhere? I think not. Simply a statement that I believe to be true. You may believe otherwise. By the way the dumbing has no relation to IQ I was speaking spiritually and the dumbing well we know the source from scripture.
Quote:
I also would not promote or approve of books that tell stories promoting men or women that molest children as ok for the same reason, there is no moral value in either.
"I" speaks for me what part of I don't you get for the record again I does not mean anyone other than me Whitedove....
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Raf
Comic books, plays, movies, all secular entertainment can be seen as a distraction from Biblical admonitions. Ah, but this one is promoting witchcraft, you say? Harry Potter has as much in common with the real Wiccan religion as it has with nuclear physics.
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WhiteDove
Nope Steve you were very gracious in your restraint of the derail. I chose to move the subject actually last night.
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WhiteDove
Rascal can't let this one slide
The most destructive doctrine ever foisted off on people came from the scriptures dove....
Forced sex, forced abortion, forced divorces, forced abandonment of ones children...justification of adultery, justification of the destroying of ones brother, justification of covering felonies.....
Wrong!!!!
None of that is in the scriptures nor is it promoted by them. It did not come from scripture at least not my Bible.....
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reikilady
As a card carrying witch/wiccan, IMHO, Harry Potter isn't the real magical thing and J. K. Rawling has crafted some fine characters that have heart, a sense of adventure, and loyalty.
The devil doesn't make us screw up, fear or rationalation in the moment makes us do things that cause harm. Us being defined as human beings.
Wiccans make major contributions to humanity and are very concerned about taking care of the ONE GOD's creations (earth).
Come what may, I've said my belief on this subject.
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Belle
Dove,
You don't have to mention names to call us stupid and accuse us of being responsible for the "dumbing down of America". Since Raf said it so eloquently and clearly I'll just refer to his post:
You also haven't answered Rascal and my questions about the fairy tales and stories that you most likely grew up with. Where do YOU draw the line?
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rascal
It most certainly was dove and not just taught to me....
I am NOT a liar and do not apreciate your inferance of such....
If you need me to start another thread stating the scriptures used to force and justify these actions I will of course oblige....though I have posted them numerous times before.
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Belle
Now, Rascal, no need to start yet another thread.
:)--> I'll help you with the scriptures used to promote and justify these things. Just let me finish this one last report.
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DaddyHoundog
oi vey
Harry has promoted reading, no one is going to warlock/witch prep school. Muslims also used to get a long with Jews ....before the christians started being overly righteous...yeesh
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WhiteDove
Sorry the Bible does not support forced anything only free will decisions. Anything misquoted is not truth. The fact that people may misrepresent something does not alter the truth of the origional. As I said before My math teacher may have not been a moral person but the math he taught was still none the less true. There are no scriptures for forced rape in the Bible maybe in someones idea of the scriptures but not in the Bible. A big difference.
You said Quote:The most destructive doctrine ever foisted off on people came from the scriptures dove....
Forced sex, forced abortion, forced divorces, forced abandonment of ones children...justification of adultery, justification of the destroying of ones brother, justification of covering felonies.....
Sorry it did not come from scripture give me a chapter and verse that supports any of those ideas from the Bible.
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