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I have a question for you doctrinal buffs. TWI taught water baptism was replaced by baptism in holy spirit shown by SIT. Some have eluded to the first century believers practiced water baptism still.

I have been thinking...

veepee taught baptism meant to dip,wash, immerse

I am wondering if water was implied/understood. As far as English language goes, I normally say I need to eat. I dont say i need to eat food.

Seeing that there was wrong teaching in twit world, I figure I need to re-evaluate everything. (The church I am currently attending believes in water baptism.)

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Read up on it. From a layman's standpoint, Derek Prince has a fairly cogent thing on Baptisms in his book, um, might be called "the spirit-Filled Life" or something.

I believe in water baptism in the same sense I believe in practicing communion. The act doesn't confer anything, but the symbolic act, when done with meaning and faith, can be rich in meaning. Not essential for salvation, of course, but taken together, these acts can be a significant thing for a christian. Any more than this & I'll have to go doctrinal on you.

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I'm willing to get baptized if only for the sake of neutralizing the argument over whether it's necessary. That way we can argue about other things, like Harry Potter and the Davinci Code.

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I was water baptized in 1991 (2 years post-twi) and have had other experiences that cleansed me from a lot of my past.

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When you read about outreach and the growth of the church in Acts, the people were baptized.

Paul said HE didnt baptize...but he didnt say it wasnt to be done.

Rachel

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Here's the best of my understanding, for whatever it's worth:

Water baptism was originally part of the ritual a Gentile went through when he/she wanted to convert to Judaism. This raises an interesting question. Why was John the Baptist baptising people who were already Jews?

By the first century, the Jewish people had split into a number of factions such as Saduccees, Pharisees, Essenes, etc. (apparently the only qualifaction was to have double letters in the name of your group :-) ) Some of these factions claimed to be the believing "remnant" of Israel. The Essenes, at least, used water baptism as part of a person's conversion/initiation into the believing remnant.

I believe when John was baptising, people understood that they were being identified with the believing remnant of Israel. I think that's why Jesus had to be baptised, to become an official member of the remnant.

On the Day of Pentecost, something was added... baptism in/with the Holy Spirit... but I don't think water baptism went away.

This is how I think they did it in the first century churches. A non-Christian (Jewish OR Gentile) might decide to become a Christian. When the Christians accepted that person, he would receive baptism as part of the process. The person would take off his clothes while being exhorted to put off the old man. The person would be immersed if at all possible. The person would go down into the water confessing "Jesus is Lord" with his understanding, and come up out of the water speaking in tongues. The person would put his clothes back on while being exhorted to put on the new man.

This process was originally accomplished in the home churches by the hosts (twig coordinators).

I think that there was a power struggle in the late first century between the fellowship hosts (collectively the "elders" of the church in the city) and the metropolitan bishops (branch coordinators). The bishops disallowed any baptisms unless he or one of his recognized representatives conducted them. That way, rogue twig coordinators couldn't bring new people into the church. The bishops could control the water, but they couldn't control the Spirit, so baptism with water was emphasized. The importance of baptism with Holy Spirit was neglected and went out of practice.

Being baptized in water is how you show that you want to join a group, and how the group shows that you are accepted. It's no more "mystical" or "spiritual" than session 12 of PFAL was. Baptism with the Holy Spirit is what makes a person a member of the believing remnant of Israel, and thus an heir to the promises God made to them. The gift of Holy Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance.

Love,

Steve

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quote:
Originally posted by smurfette:

I have a question for you doctrinal buffs. TWI taught water baptism was replaced by baptism in holy spirit shown by SIT. Some have eluded to the first century believers practiced water baptism still.

This may be of assistance:

quote:
Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living (moving) water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

From the Didache. According to some, the Didache is dated from as early as 70 AD...earlier than some of the books of the Bible.

Not to say that it should be a source of doctrine, but it does provide some validation as to what was practiced during patristic Christianity.

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hi all. a few thoughts

i think i've mentioned it somewhere around here before.

perhaps the difference between water and fire baptisms can be expressed thus:

(pardon the way way general sense of things)

the water baptism of John is more associated with the healing arts

and restoring and cleansing that which is there

a much cooler way of purification

fire baptism is more associated with purification by way of destruction

the total consumption and evaporation of that which is there

hot hot hot stuff...hell to some, heaven to others

John represented the spiritual cutting edge of the times

he was a healer, most likely an Essene

(which was a sort of smart hillbilly jewish "pagan"

from my experience and understanding of the term)

but John knew what wisdom was lacking in his corner of the world

he had a good eye for it

and what had been lost

what had been forgotten

what was only envisioned

which is probably why he spent so much time in the woods

(few would accept his thoughts, i imagine)

and which is why he could recognize the cutting edge when he saw it.

to him, all was a level playing field

(hence, the "mountains and lakes" shticke)

in a sense, he could have said something like:

"i am an expert in cleansing of body/soul/spirit via water,

but this guy can take it somewhere else entirely.

and in a way that is way way over even my head"

baptism of water, as it is used in scripture, is important to the world

but it will not introduce one to what is meant by "eternal life"

or "the mind of God," or "mind of Christ"

John's water had its limits, and Jesus used it to heal

(what else is spit on the eye but a water baptism?)

but baptism in fire represents a positive view of the destruction and rebirth of self

like a phoenix

or burning bush

or flaming sword

or a way to quicken our inner "gold"

or...

water = clean

fire = change (as in a change from mortal to immortal)

question is, perhaps,

if we want to get beyond mere translations and theory and conceptualizations,

how does one get baptised in fire? how does one practice being the disciple of a fire-baptiser?

then, how might baptisms of water and fire (in any sense of the terms) work together better than they work apart?

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well, i sure do wish you a miracle, friend

maybe there is one just laying around nearby you now

they do that, i think

wink2.gif;)-->

and, imo, sometimes, meeting the "right" people can be miraculous in nature

we can be living signposts for each other that way

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and i think the all notions of water baptism, as i understand them, are good for stepping back and cleaning off things you want to keep. for spiffing ourselves up for a date with our spiritual community.

but fire baptism is a much wilder thing. a path of pain, mostly. i doubt very many who claim to follow in the footsteps of Jesus would have been comfortable with his baptism. life as you know it tends to unravel and melt and loose it previous shape. your place in history comes undone. too much information is a new gift and a new problem. reminds me of the blue pill/red pill decision from "The Matrix." because there is a point of no return. or how once a seal is broken in our perspectives, it tends to stay broken. Once we start down on a path of deeper spiritual metamorph, if you will, there is no turning back. and nothing will ever be the same. and for the most part, most people you know and love just typically do not want you to change, period. they love you for who you are now, and to change is to take that from them.

now, imagine a path of change after change after change...

this is the bittersweet pill

which is why few ever really follow the kid himself

but rather, chase after his followers

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I was born and raised a baptist.

i used to go on retreats with the byf baptist youth fellowship.

It was a beautiful week spent in the pennsyvania hills , in big old houses and full of love and fellowship.

one day we would get up before the sun and walk in silence down to major river side, and be baptized by walking out into the water and prayer and words said full body immersion, in robes no less.

prayer and very deep meditation was done by everyone. this was done just as the sun begon to shine its rays on the water.

fifty years later I still think of those days. of the whole magical being of the experience.

I think it drew people to God I think it helped us as teen focus on a life different than what the world was offering.

I know people got born again during those dunks.

do I think it is needed? no probably not. But it sure was wonderful and an experience that enriched my life and helped me form a bond with God.

bottom line it didnt hurt me. so what is the harm?

twi described how useless it was I didnt agree, but i guess I did change my mind on whether itwas needed to go to heaven I was never taught that even in the baptist church although we did do it alot lol. maybe I missed that sermon.

I think if by cahnce it can direct someone towards a more spiritual life if it canhelp someone feel cleaner or whatever what is the harm and look at the goodness that may happen from it.

twi was a rough crowd.

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sirguess

WOW!

that is the most profound statement I have ever heard.

Being a christaina is all about changing, and not fun and fine and dandy changing either. to be As He is.

not for nothing but His life kind of sucked .

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A couple of thoughts on water/fire baptism:

quote:
“And, accordingly, our Lord in His teaching,” I continued, “proclaimed that this very thing would take place, saying that Elijah would also come. And we know that this shall take place when our Lord Jesus Christ shall come in glory from heaven; whose first manifestation the Spirit of God who was in Elijah preceded as herald in [the person of] John, a prophet among your nation; after whom no other prophet appeared among you. He cried, as he sat by the river Jordan: ‘I baptize you with water to repentance; but He that is stronger than I shall come, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: whose fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His floor, and will gather the wheat into the barn; but the chaff He will burn up with unquenchable fire.’ And this very prophet your king Herod had shut up in prison; and when his birthday was celebrated, and the niece of the same Herod by her dancing had pleased him, he told her to ask whatever she pleased. Then the mother of the maiden instigated her to ask the head of John, who was in prison; and having asked it, [Herod] sent and ordered the head of John to be brought in on a charger. Wherefore also our Christ said, [when He was] on earth, to those who were affirming that Elijah must come before Christ: ‘Elijah shall come, and restore all things; but I say unto you, that Elijah has already come, and they knew him not, but have done to him whatsoever they chose.’ And it is written, ‘Then the disciples understood that He spake to them about John the Baptist.’ ”

-- Dialogue of Justin Martyr with Trypho, Chapter XLIX.—"To those who object that Elijah has not yet come, he replies that he is the precursor of the first advent." (c. 150)

quote:
3. But why do we speak of Jerusalem, since, indeed, the fashion of the whole world must also pass away, when the time of its disappearance has come, in order that the fruit indeed may be gathered into the garner, but the chaff, left behind, may be consumed by fire? “For the day of the Lord cometh as a burning furnace, and all sinners shall be stubble, they who do evil things, and the day shall burn them up.”3840 Now, who this Lord is that brings such a day about, John the Baptist points out, when he says of Christ, “He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire, having His fan in His hand to cleanse His floor; and He will gather His fruit into the garner, but the chaff He will burn up with unquenchable fire.” For He who makes the chaff and He who makes the wheat are not different persons, but one and the same, who judges them, that is, separates them. But the wheat and the chaff, being inanimate and irrational, have been made such by nature. But man, being endowed with reason, and in this respect like to God, having been made free in his will, and with power over himself, is himself the cause to himself, that sometimes he becomes wheat, and sometimes chaff. Wherefore also he shall be justly condemned, because, having been created a rational being, he lost the true rationality, and living irrationally, opposed the righteousness of God, giving himself over to every earthly spirit, and serving all lusts; as says the prophet, “Man, being in honour, did not understand: he was assimilated to senseless beasts, and made like to them.”3842

-- Irenæus, Against Heresies, Book IV, Chap IV, 3. ("Answer to another objection, showing that the destruction of Jerusalem, which was the city of the great King, diminished nothing from the supreme majesty and power of God, for that this destruction was put in execution by the most wise counsel of the same God.") (c. 120-200)

Now, the Biblical statement was:

Matthew 3:11 I am baptizing you with water, for repentance, but the one who is coming after me is mightier than I. I am not worthy to carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the holy Spirit and fire.

(or in KJV: I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

But, read the next verse:

12 His winnowing fan is in his hand. He will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.

(or in KJV: Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.)

If you read the above, from a couple of the early Church fathers, you'll note that the two verses were not separated one from another (that's why I mentioned them...because, as I've said elsewhere, reading the early Church fathers shows us how they understood scripture in a time that was a whole lot closer to when the actual events happened than we are)

Now, I'd like to point out a couple of other verses to consider in light of verses 11 and 12:

Ezekiel 36

25 I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.

26 I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts.

27 I will put my spirit within you and make you live by my statutes, careful to observe my decrees.

28 You shall live in the land I gave your fathers; you shall be my people, and I will be your God.

29 I will save you from all your impurities; I will order the grain to be abundant, and I will not send famine against you.

30 I will increase the fruit on your trees and the crops in your fields; thus you shall no longer bear among the nations the reproach of famine.

31 Then you shall remember your evil conduct, and that your deeds were not good; you shall loathe yourselves for your sins and your abominations.

32 Not for your sakes do I act, says the Lord GOD--let this be known to you! Be ashamed and abashed because of your conduct, O house of Israel.

33 Thus says the Lord GOD: When I purify you from all your crimes, I will repeople the cities, and the ruins shall be rebuilt;

34 the desolate land shall be tilled, which was formerly a wasteland exposed to the gaze of every passer-by.

35 "This desolate land has been made into a garden of Eden," they shall say. "The cities that were in ruins, laid waste, and destroyed are now repeopled and fortified."

36 Thus the neighboring nations that remain shall know that I, the LORD, have rebuilt what was destroyed and replanted what was desolate. I, the LORD, have promised, and I will do it.

(Please note that water was associated with renewal above)

Malachi 3

2 But who will endure the day of his coming? And who can stand when he appears? For he is like the refiner's fire, or like the fuller's lye.

3 He will sit refining and purifying (silver), and he will purify the sons of Levi, Refining them like gold or like silver that they may offer due sacrifice to the LORD.

(please note that fire is associated with purification)

1 Corinthians 3

13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work.

14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.

15 But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.

(again, fire is associated with purification...however, please consider that the fire is at some relative future time frame)

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i really love your story of the penn hills, mj

to add...i doubt there is a clean solid consistant usage of metaphor from Genesis to Revelation.

also, things expressed as being trapped in future had little to do with whether they were everpresent truths

and more to do with whether the people could grasp the everpresent truths

Jesus taught nothing new

for there is nothing new

in a sense

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a few more thoughts on it...

i think that the "baptism of fire" only seems future to some

because we have never felt "it" now

or maybe did not know it for what it was

or maybe we see little to no value in it, sacred or otherwise,

that sense of feeling, sense of touch

but not only did the Kid™ everyone brags about actually feel it

he reached for it, practiced it, demonstrated it, embodied it, and lived it

in the streets, in the temples, with anyone

with all the godlike irreverence he could muster

he cracked it wide wide open

along with other things

"breathe" he said, and "love"

among many other things

but start here

if nothing else

and practice this faithfully

and pay attention to what happens next

icon_cool.gif

its beyond mere passion, but compassion

which is a much wider open space

and when that daystar arises in our heart

whatever shadows are there do not flee, really

but are simply filled with something else

and so there is blood, fire, vapor of smoke...oh my!

(once da boyz finally got it, that is)

icon_cool.gificon_cool.gificon_cool.gif

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I have received reports from two independent people who I trust, who, each in a hospital under potentially deadly circumstances, received what I can only describe as "visions" of the baptism of fire. It wasn't pleasant by any means, but it led to life changing decisions in each of their cases.

When we find ourselves in the middle of that baptism, we will know what it is, and I believe none of us will mistake it for any of the things we're going through now.

Love,

Steve

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yep

but also,

not all such baptisms are the same

some are immersed against their will

all at once, maybe by suprise

like being mugged by a crook in the night

some learn of it first

then go in with eyes open

and practice dipping their toes

with a sense of discipline, responsibility, etc...

and then there are all those points between

Edited by sirguessalot

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quote:
It wasn't pleasant by any means, but it led to life changing decisions in each of their cases.

change can be unpleasant, and enlightening at the same time, but once it's done there is that which is better, finished, ready for what it leads to.

even changing shifts at a job is hard on me, on my mind ya know.

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I do not want to change the subject Yet in a sense baptists go into the water to change : it is cause and effect .

I think it can help a person , be differnt face change welcome change it is a celebration of how you change a symbol of when you chose to change. I understand how it can be a profound experience for a person. how they would think God wanted them to that it was needed. I read where it may not be neccesary for your salvation but I do not read where it is a sin or even a bad choice.

or it just something your parents told ya had to do before you could go to middle school or something.

that is all life is a path to death. a journey I guess. hopefully along the way ya pick up some beliefs that help ya with it .

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a bit more then a path to death i think

death yes

death of what?

what will live on?

it's clear in the scriptures that

there is life after death

avoiding the arguments of when

will help to see more clearly

also the when of baptism of water

and fire, and to consider possibilities...

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quote:
Yet in a sense baptists go into the water to change : it is cause and effect. I think it can help a person , be differnt face change welcome change it is a celebration of how you change a symbol of when you chose to change. I understand how it can be a profound experience for a person. how they would think God wanted them to that it was needed.

yeah, i think both scriptural expressions of water and fire baptism are beyond simple direct physical correlations. Thus, a water-based ritual (like traditional baptism) can be involved in the more inward fiery process of spiritual change. Just as actual fire or heat may be involved with a more watery process of change and healing (such as a sweat lodge, or laser surgery).

quote:
that is all life is a path to death. a journey I guess. hopefully along the way ya pick up some beliefs that help ya with it.

yes, and a path through many kinds of sub-deaths. like gold refined in fire seven times.

our values come to many crossroads in life.

be it our personal values, or the values of a society

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Well, the question of baptism is officially academic for me now.

I got baptized today. icon_smile.gif:)-->

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