called the author (spoke to her assistant) a few years back and asked if I need to get some kind of training to continue. Was I in copyright trouble? I was told that the author wanted this stuff taught in every High School in America and she was glad for my excitement. Just please give credit and do not claim any of the research as my own.
I do so - gladly!
Docvic coulda taken lessons from this, but didn't. :(
What amazes me is how one can accuse somebody else of what they will never recognize in themselves. That has got to be the proof of spiritual blindness - if one were truly seeking spiritual proof for anything. Matthew 15:14.
I expect many things amaze you, WTH.
In this post, this was hardly a case of the pot calling the
kettle black, but-
how did Gary Gygax put it again?
The tarnished kettle's besooted vision causes it to suspect it detects a
I think you over abbreviated the situation when you reported that some of Dr's books were written by committee on your thread in “About the Way.”
First, nearly every high ranking University Professor has a team of graduate students writing for him at times. It’s always highly supervised.
I could elaborate, but my time is limited just now. I knew some of the committee members, and just like Dr’s editors, I discussed this phenomenon of committee written books with them over the decades.
I did extend you the courtesy of starting to read your post. However, I see right from the start that you want to quibble over trivialities like “one lengthy post” versus “many small posts.”
[It's hardly a triviality when you choose a format that
causes people to skip over your post.
It's about as trivial as posting in light yellow type.
That's discourteous to your supposed audience.
Supposedly, you want to COMMUNICATE, not SQUELCH DISCUSSION,
but posts that are the size of a small BOOK are intended to do just that.
That's neither quibbling nor trivial.
However, since it's something you disagree with, small wonder
you're slapping a label on it.]
That kinda kills my motivation to slog deeper into your post.
[At least have the intellectual honesty to admit that you had
no intention to read my post to begin with. I show you more
courtest and honesty than you show me. I actually read your
material AND comment on the actual content. I disagree but
do not misrepresent.]
IF ANYONE SEES ANY INTERESTING NON-TRIVIAL POINTS WORDWOLF MAKES
IN HIS POSTS ANALYZING MY POSTS, PLEASE COPY AND PASTE THAT INTERESTING
POINT INTO A BITE SIZED POST AND POLITELY ADDRESS IT TO ME, ok?
[so, Mike insists on receiving small posts in the same breath he
insists on pasting in War and Peace.
Anyone else see the hypocrisy raising its ugly head again?
Mike's tired of getting spanked with anything resembling a
level playing field, so here come the games again...]
***
Anyway I did threaten to have a private conversation in public or in PMs if you and your ilk didn’t behave, and you didn’t, so I HAD my private conversation with her in public, inviting in a few guests at times.
[You don't set policy here-Pawtucket does.
You don't dictate behaviour here-Pawtucket does.
Make no mistake-if YOU dictated either, none of us would show up
here-which would defeat your purpose of posting here-
attempting to recruit at the last remaining board you haven't
been kicked out of.]
So, since STYLE is so much on your mind as to open your post with it, WW, what did you think of how I wove all those multi-responses into one dialog with doojable?
[Don't know.
I have a JOB and haven't had TIME to read the entire book you posted.
I DO know that almost everyone WILL just scroll past it or put you on
"ignore" just to get down the page. So, I think that posting it as one
thread is not only discourteous to the audience, but it's self-defeating,
unless one is looking for bragging rights for the longest post.
Generally speaking, the longer the post, the more people will avoid
it. ]
Hmmmmmm?
Doncha think I should get an English Comp award for my efforts there?
[No-most teachers would penalize you for lacking enough prudence
to channel a submission SPECIFICALLY and CONCISELY.
However, you might ask a resident English teacher or someone with
a degree in a related field how he would grade that one...]
***
Oh, and since you opened with trivialities, I’ll call you bluff and raise you ten.
[Guaranteeing people will just skip your post is hardly trivial.
And what is this nebulous "bluff" you're speaking of?
I always deliver on my promises. ]
I’ll bet that the bandwidth load for my choice of one lengthy post is lower than the load for many small posts, that is ifs I knows me komputers good like I thinks I does. ...lower overhead bytes.
And if I remember my quibbles history, you were the one who brought up me hogging bandwidth with long posts, or ONE of the ones who brought it up.
[You've rewritten history again.
My complaint was in taking up HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of pages
never quite getting to the point,
when the rest of us can make a case in 1/100th the space you use.
I don't know yet if you've done that again-but I will and will
discuss it once I do. (I haven't had the spare time to read a book
in the last few hours.) ]
Isn’t it fun to quibble when such immensely important matters, LIKE GOD'S WORD, to discuss in my lengthy post are being neglected? Oh well, you selected the priorities with your opening tone.
[i address the points in the order they come up.
Anyone seeing your post will first notice that it's book-length.
I have already begun addressing the content in the limited time
so far. Don't pretend you didn't compose all this on the side,
then suddenly cut-and-paste it all at once. It is an unwieldy size
for a post, and addressing it properly WILL take time.]
Back to the quibbling, what broke my heart most is how you didn’t notice the way I so courteously DID break up the topics into colored sections, and also big bands of asterisks to help our dear readers.
[i DID notice, but-given the brevity of time-elected not to
comment on it. A smaller kindness of breaking the visuals up-
which DID represent a significant improvement- was more than
offset by the unwieldy size of the post-which took more away
from the post than the colours and visual breaks added.]
Gosh, I hope THEY appreciated the color scheme...
[When a post is that size, that's all they come away with.]
Hey A Simple Guy - come over and visit me in the "Open " forum. Go to either page 3 or 4 and look over the "Divine Design" thread. It's for artists that want to converse. Even of you only "doodle," go ahead and post.
BTW I've taught both my gilrs how to draw this way. Maybe this would be a better thing to do than all of us insult each other......
I’d be happy to discuss any parts of my lengthy post with you in the weeks to come. I’d be honored if you even just read the whole thing, but if you don’t have that much time I won’t be angry. A lot of what I write is really for lurker consumption, even WayGB.
You wrote:
“Dr compiled the works of many men before him - Stiles, Leonard, Bullinger, et al. Don't all these men also deserve the "revelation status" that is being ascribed to vpw?”
Yes. Dr assigns them that status on a SNS tape. Want the quote? I’ve posted it before. Anyone remember it? This is a spot quiz. I’ve posted it about 5 times in the last three years.
***
You wrote:
“Now one only one point - I DID work for years to master the written material. I didn't come to the same conclusion as you, Mike. I dont' really know what else to say on this matter.”
I know what to say.
It’s the second time through PFAL that we are called to. Dr constantly calls us to “come back” to the Word in PFAL. There’s more available now, today, than there was to you when you first worked on mastering it.
By the way, I should point out that your first research effort, though admirable, sounds like (I could be wrong) it did not last very many years. I’m on 8 years now and I’m nowhere near done.
I also suspect (I could be wrong) that you never did any PFAL word studies, it takes many years to build up even a partial mental concordance of PFAL vocabulary.
I also suspect (I could be wrong) that there are other investigation tools you didn’t get around to using so your mastery effort could PROBABLY have been beefed up had you had the time and inclination back then.
Here’s another thing to consider: The book and magazine set of Dr’s writings was not complete until mid 1985. If you did your first time through research project before that date, then there’s tons of new material available for you to include in the mix.
***
Anyway, regardless of your particular situation, since it’s a new administration, that means that new things are available to be administered. It’s a new Age as my lengthy post discusses. In this new administration one of the first things made newly available is a MUCH deeper understanding in reading the PFAL revelations.
I could do a whole thread on the 50 some PFAL page references I have collected where Dr uses this peculiar phraseology where “come back” and “return” and “really begin” come up.
Much of the PFAL material is more applicable now than it was then. There are things in there that can now be seen as prophecy of the ministry meltdown and then the RETURN to this Word we were given.
The first time through PFAL it was only available to receive a 5-senses understanding of the material.
The second time through PFAL it is NOW available to receive a SPIRITUAL understanding.
There’s another whole thread topic: my collection of PFAL page references on spiritual versus 5-senses understanding.
***
Instead of threads for all these major topics I’ve been ticking off lately, I may instead or in combination do the topics as issues of a monthly or weekly newsletter for those grads who want to study these things out.
Anyway, doojable, it was fun writing the response to your post in my head for 6 weeks and then finally typing it out in the past few days.
Please take your time reading it. I hope it will be a fun time for you too, an exercise in new thought.
Anyway I did threaten to have a private conversation in public or in PMs if you and your ilk didn’t behave, and you didn’t, so I HAD my private conversation with her in public, inviting in a few guests at times.
Mike: What are you talking about?????
Brief answer, please.
A lot of what I write is really for lurker consumption, even WayGB.
What does this mean????? Do NOT waste time and space at GreaseSpot unless you intend to have a conversation with the people HERE. This is not your personal soapbox.
I think you over abbreviated the situation when you reported that some of Dr's books were written by committee on your thread in “About the Way.”
That's your opinion.
When it came to "Jesus Christ Our Passover" and "Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed",
vpw-at most-contributed an introduction/preface to each,
plus his name.
The research people who wrote the entire contents are not even mentioned.
A more honest-although STILL not wholly candid-approach would have
been to write "EDITED BY", rather than "by".
Most people would view that differently from you.
First, nearly every high ranking University Professor has a team of graduate students writing for him at times. It’s always highly supervised.
You made the same claim about EW Bullinger, and THAT was disproven
as well.
At MOST, any team effort would say "edited by" and the head's name-
otherwise, he's vulnerable to legal action.
Universities prize intellectual honesty and the reputation of same,
so that's a major deal.
I could elaborate, but my time is limited just now. I knew some of the committee members, and just like Dr’s editors, I discussed this phenomenon of committee written books with them over the decades.
We're supposed to trust your version of what they said?
I’m not sure if you have any familiarity with my posting history, but I do punctuate it with a little tongue in cheek at times. If you want me to explain my jokes to you I can, but it looks to me that you hadn’t had a chance to go back and read the pages that are referenced in the remark of mine you are questioning.
If I am to be brief then I’ll refrain from recapitulating those pages and wait for you to read them.
***
I have MANY conversations here.
More than most.
I also sometimes exercise the unofficial ignore function with some people who are rude and abusive toward me, and sometimes I use humor on them.
If you see an abusive post of mine I’d be happy to deal with it on your terms.
Edit Addition:
Did you want to know about the WayGB remark too?
I've posted that about five times before.
Gads, you guys, can't a guy go to the bathroom?
I didn't even see Maudaustin's post in th eflurry of posting.
Dr did BG Leonard a great service. No one would have ever heard of him had it not been for Dr.
WW, you oversimplify. Dr cut out a lot of items from all of the people he learned from.
He contradicts Bullinger and others in many places. He put it all together in one place where they only had some good pieces jammed up with bad pieces in their classes.
The end product of what Dr put together is VASTLY superior to the end products of any of the men he learned from.
The men Dr learned from were blessed to give to us God’s family.
I refuse to respond to your evil thinking of a man who did much, much good.
I experienced the Way of a Father (God) with His family. I’m sorry if you didn’t.
Dr did BG Leonard a great service. No one would have ever heard of him had it not been for Dr.
GROSS lie.
vpw did BG Leonard a gross DISservice.
BG Leonard already had a reputation, and was making
a BIGGER one.
When he found out about vpw's dishonest dealings with
him (lying to him directly and also plagiarizing his work),
Leonard was VERY offended and hurt.
Christians are NOT supposed to do that to each other.
Rather than sue vpw-which was his legal right-he exercised
his choice NOT to, then added elaborate copyright notices
to his books, AND became much more careful about
that sort of thing. In short, if vpw hadn't wounded him,
Leonard wouldnt have "closed up" to the degree he did,
which limited his exposure to other Christians.
And what did vpw do to "publicize" Leonard?
He made one or 2 aside comments about Leonard,
and specified Leonard was not good with the Word.
That was a complete lie, since Leonard was GREAT
with the Word. That's why vpw ripped off his work.
"Publicize" him? He SLANDERED him by saying Leonard
was not good with the Word, KNOWING this was a lie.
Claiming vpw advertised Leonard is like claiming Truth.com
advertises for tobacco companies!
WW, you oversimplify. Dr cut out a lot of items from all of the people he learned from.
Leonard's class became the first vpw class. The material was all retained
and split into 3 levels. To that was added material from Bullinger and Stiles
and other people. THAT's not oversimplifying.
Neither is saying that vpw NEVER said that simply putting together the
work of those 3 was the sum total of pfal, not counting the jokes.
The homileticist in him just HAD to add some jokes.
He contradicts Bullinger and others in many places. He put it all together in one place where they only had some good pieces jammed up with bad pieces in their classes.
Go ahead-
what "bad pieces" did Leonard have in his classes?
And what are you basing this claim on?
I'm looking for an answer more fact-oriented than
"well, they must have, because otherwise vpw wouldn't
have done what he did..."
And he rarely contradicted Bullinger.
The end product of what Dr put together is VASTLY superior to the end products of any of the men he learned from.
Wrong.
The men Dr learned from were blessed to give to us God’s family.
But they were unable to be offended at being ripped off because
they were dead.
Except for Bullinger-who was blessed to bless Christians-
but hurt specifically because of the actions of vpw.
I refuse to respond to your evil thinking of a man who did much, much good.
You refuse to admit the felonies and misdemeanors of a man who
did much, much bad, while wearing a mask of good.
I experienced the Way of a Father (God) with His family. I’m sorry if you didn’t.
You barely interacted with the man.
Those who DID paint a VERY different story than you.
What you "experienced" mostly is interactions with the books and tapes.
Forgive me for thinking that a man's press is a less-than-objective
I know BG Leonard was still into the "gifts" of the spirit instead of the manifestations of the spirit as late as 1986.
Look WordWolf, I don’t want to get bogged down in the minutia you think is important. I have my own minutia I want to get on the table, so please excuse me from your rant about Dr doing bad. I want to focus on the good he did. Do you MIND?
I will focus on that good.
BTW, For me, as a 60’s hippie, there’s NO WAY anyone like BG Leonard could have gotten through to me.
If it weren’t for been-to-Woodstock-naked-and-tripping type hippies telling me:
“Ok, he LOOKS just like a redneck farmer Bible belt preacher, and he SOUNDS just like a redneck farmer Bible belt preacher, and he IS a redneck farmer Bible belt preacher... but he’s cool anyway!”
If Dr hadn’t come with that endorsement from my hippie twig friends, I’d have NEVER given vpw 5 minutes worth of listening. And there were thousands of “downers and outers” just like me who’d have NEVER heard one verse of God’s Word if it hadn’t been for Victor Paul Wierwille and PFAL.
I was there at the '72 Rock when Dr used that phrase to describe us all, including him: “downers and outers.”
I completely reject all your sob stories for BG. BG had not the genius to get his stuff over the world. Look how God worked with Jacob. Jacob was a go-getter. He bent the rules. He got the job done. My hippie friends would have NEVER endorsed BG to me.
Dr was able to relate to us hippies and we moved what God was teaching Dr around the world. The books got written, printed and distributed world wide. They are ready to bless any grad who walks away from all the useless focus on sin and scandal, whether factual or exaggerated or invented.
I an just not interested in engaging in endless discussion of pointless finger pointing and bitter blame gaming. There are wonderful good things to be found in the books.
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A simple guy
My Mom swore by the book "Drawing on the right side of the brain". She had me drawing things upside down when I was barely old enough to write.
Pretty cool.
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dmiller
Docvic coulda taken lessons from this, but didn't. :(
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Mike
dmiller,
I think he knew what he was doing and did properly here.
Let me remind you of this:
Please excuse my formatting and truncation
in re-presenting the following quotes:
First dmiller wrote:
“Docvic (plain and simple) took from other's works,
and passed it off as his own.”
Then oldiesman wrote:
dmiller,
sorry but I am going to have to disagree in part with you,
and I base my belief on the following:
“Lots of the stuff I teach is not original.
Putting it all together so that it fit -- that
was the original work. I learned wherever
I could, and then I worked that with the
Scriptures. What was right on with the
Scriptures, I kept; but what wasn't, I dropped.”
Victor Paul Wierwille,
1972 The Way Living In Love
Elena Whiteside page 209
The previous statement by VP disproves that he “passed it off as his own.”
In 1972 he said it wasn't original; ... if you don't believe he said that,
there it is, right before your eyes.
He deserves credit for not passing it off as his own,
but rather saying “lots of the stuff I teach is not original.”
If he was trying to hide something, and pass off all of this as his own,
he would not have made the previous statement, nor have other authors' books,
from whence he learned, selling in the Way Bookstore for all to read.
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WordWolf
I expect many things amaze you, WTH.
In this post, this was hardly a case of the pot calling the
kettle black, but-
how did Gary Gygax put it again?
The tarnished kettle's besooted vision causes it to suspect it detects a
spot of tarnish on the silver tray it beholds.
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Mike
Hi WW,
I think you over abbreviated the situation when you reported that some of Dr's books were written by committee on your thread in “About the Way.”
First, nearly every high ranking University Professor has a team of graduate students writing for him at times. It’s always highly supervised.
I could elaborate, but my time is limited just now. I knew some of the committee members, and just like Dr’s editors, I discussed this phenomenon of committee written books with them over the decades.
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Mike
Hi A simple guy,
I’m honored that you addressed your first two posts here to me.
Please allow me to be your official greeter.
Welcome!
From whence come ye, and what is thy shtick?
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WordWolf
[When a post is that size, that's all they come away with.]
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doojable
Hey A Simple Guy - come over and visit me in the "Open " forum. Go to either page 3 or 4 and look over the "Divine Design" thread. It's for artists that want to converse. Even of you only "doodle," go ahead and post.
BTW I've taught both my gilrs how to draw this way. Maybe this would be a better thing to do than all of us insult each other......
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Mike
Hi doojable,
I’d be happy to discuss any parts of my lengthy post with you in the weeks to come. I’d be honored if you even just read the whole thing, but if you don’t have that much time I won’t be angry. A lot of what I write is really for lurker consumption, even WayGB.
You wrote:
“Dr compiled the works of many men before him - Stiles, Leonard, Bullinger, et al. Don't all these men also deserve the "revelation status" that is being ascribed to vpw?”
Yes. Dr assigns them that status on a SNS tape. Want the quote? I’ve posted it before. Anyone remember it? This is a spot quiz. I’ve posted it about 5 times in the last three years.
***
You wrote:
“Now one only one point - I DID work for years to master the written material. I didn't come to the same conclusion as you, Mike. I dont' really know what else to say on this matter.”
I know what to say.
It’s the second time through PFAL that we are called to. Dr constantly calls us to “come back” to the Word in PFAL. There’s more available now, today, than there was to you when you first worked on mastering it.
By the way, I should point out that your first research effort, though admirable, sounds like (I could be wrong) it did not last very many years. I’m on 8 years now and I’m nowhere near done.
I also suspect (I could be wrong) that you never did any PFAL word studies, it takes many years to build up even a partial mental concordance of PFAL vocabulary.
I also suspect (I could be wrong) that there are other investigation tools you didn’t get around to using so your mastery effort could PROBABLY have been beefed up had you had the time and inclination back then.
Here’s another thing to consider: The book and magazine set of Dr’s writings was not complete until mid 1985. If you did your first time through research project before that date, then there’s tons of new material available for you to include in the mix.
***
Anyway, regardless of your particular situation, since it’s a new administration, that means that new things are available to be administered. It’s a new Age as my lengthy post discusses. In this new administration one of the first things made newly available is a MUCH deeper understanding in reading the PFAL revelations.
I could do a whole thread on the 50 some PFAL page references I have collected where Dr uses this peculiar phraseology where “come back” and “return” and “really begin” come up.
Much of the PFAL material is more applicable now than it was then. There are things in there that can now be seen as prophecy of the ministry meltdown and then the RETURN to this Word we were given.
The first time through PFAL it was only available to receive a 5-senses understanding of the material.
The second time through PFAL it is NOW available to receive a SPIRITUAL understanding.
There’s another whole thread topic: my collection of PFAL page references on spiritual versus 5-senses understanding.
***
Instead of threads for all these major topics I’ve been ticking off lately, I may instead or in combination do the topics as issues of a monthly or weekly newsletter for those grads who want to study these things out.
Anyway, doojable, it was fun writing the response to your post in my head for 6 weeks and then finally typing it out in the past few days.
Please take your time reading it. I hope it will be a fun time for you too, an exercise in new thought.
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Modaustin
Mike: What are you talking about?????
Brief answer, please.
What does this mean????? Do NOT waste time and space at GreaseSpot unless you intend to have a conversation with the people HERE. This is not your personal soapbox.
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WordWolf
That's your opinion.
When it came to "Jesus Christ Our Passover" and "Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed",
vpw-at most-contributed an introduction/preface to each,
plus his name.
The research people who wrote the entire contents are not even mentioned.
A more honest-although STILL not wholly candid-approach would have
been to write "EDITED BY", rather than "by".
Most people would view that differently from you.
You made the same claim about EW Bullinger, and THAT was disprovenas well.
At MOST, any team effort would say "edited by" and the head's name-
otherwise, he's vulnerable to legal action.
Universities prize intellectual honesty and the reputation of same,
so that's a major deal.
We're supposed to trust your version of what they said?
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Mike
WW,
You wrote: "We're supposed to trust your version of what they said?"
No. What I say is just window dressing. The real action is when we get into actual PFAL passage quotes.
***
And your STILL abbreviating the process.
And your still insisting on stiff Academic Standards when it was really a family deal.
Dr trained those committee members.
Many of the chapters were previously seminars and summer school classes.
They knew what they had to write.
Dr had plenty of access to the drafts and galleys.
God and Dr supervised the process.
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Modaustin
Mike, Answer my questions.
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WordWolf
Modaustin,
since Mike is either unable or unwilling to answer you
(or his selective reading is skipping your posts),
the relevant comment referred to page 12 of
this thread, towards the top,
Mike's post as of 1:18am Eastern, 12/20/05,
post 223 on this thread,
the part after the red sentence.
Anything else, Mike will have to answer you more
specifically.
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Mike
Modaustin,
I’m not sure if you have any familiarity with my posting history, but I do punctuate it with a little tongue in cheek at times. If you want me to explain my jokes to you I can, but it looks to me that you hadn’t had a chance to go back and read the pages that are referenced in the remark of mine you are questioning.
If I am to be brief then I’ll refrain from recapitulating those pages and wait for you to read them.
***
I have MANY conversations here.
More than most.
I also sometimes exercise the unofficial ignore function with some people who are rude and abusive toward me, and sometimes I use humor on them.
If you see an abusive post of mine I’d be happy to deal with it on your terms.
Edit Addition:
Did you want to know about the WayGB remark too?
I've posted that about five times before.
Gads, you guys, can't a guy go to the bathroom?
I didn't even see Maudaustin's post in th eflurry of posting.
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Modaustin
Mike: Check your PMs.
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Mike
I just did and it's empty.
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WordWolf
Actually, that's called "hedging his bets" or "covering his bases".
If someone caught something he lifted, this is his excuse covering it.
The truth of the matter-plus the original quote, would read as
follows:
"Lots of the stuff I teach is not original."
Truth: Virtually NONE of what vpw taught was original,
nor the product of his own work.
"Putting it all together so that it all fit-that was the original work."
Truth: vpw took BG Leonard's class, retained 100% of its
contents, added nothing, changed its name from
"Gifts of the Spirit" to "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today",
changed the originator's name to his own,
and taught that.
Later, he split the one class into 3, and filled in the blanks
with material completely lifted from Bullinger, Stiles
and a few others. (And changed the name again.)
So, from the beginning, it ALREADY fit. vpw changed NONE
of it in the early class, and he retained all of Leonard's work
in one or another of the levels.
"I learned whatever I could, and then I worked the Scriptures."
Truth: All the material he picked up, he used in the form he
picked it up in. The only changes he made-with one cosmetic
exception-were in incorporating each work into one class.
The initial "PFAL"/"Receiving the Holy Spirit Today" class
was taught THREE MONTHS after vpw took Leonard's entire
class for the first time (his initial exposure, he INTERRUPTED
a class IN PROGRESS, remember), which is insufficient time
to even BEGIN to compare Scripture to a 3-week class.
Thus, it should come as no surprise that "vpw's" class
was a near-perfect photocopy of Leonard's class,
with nothing added nor removed. This was confirmed
eventually by people who are now graduates of BOTH
courses.
"What was right on with the Scriptures, I kept,
but what wasn't, I dropped."
Truth: In the initial classes, he neither added nor removed
ANYTHING. In later classes, his additions from more
sources required him to make certain choices to select
WHICH source he was going to use for something.
(Eventually, sources will conflict.)
So,
the upshot of vpw's comment was to claim that he
had a few sources for a few things, then he went
off and overhauled them, and "made them his own"
by understanding them in his own way.
It was an offhand comment made in one book that
some people bought.
The truth of the matter was that vpw lifted his classes
entirely from the bodies of work of others,
and without their work, he would have been NO
class at all.
(In fact, many people today consider that to be
the case.)
That there is zero attribution-and a complete
absence of their names-in the books that were
completely derived from their work,
while those same books say that vpw used the
Bible as his guidebook and textbook after
trashing all his Christian sourcebooks-
tells a far different story than this quote
is being purported to tell.
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Mike
I'm GLAD he did what he had to do to get us taught.
It was the Way of a Father with His Family, not a University!
God was ministering to His children His Word
and He was confounding the ways of man in the process.
I even LIKE the way Dr "covered his paper trail" or however he put it.
When I read the books now I'm not bothered by useless citations.
The flow of the text is smoother.
I LIKE it.
I thank God He showed Dr where to find so many good things to place before me.
I thank God He showed Dr HOW to place those things before me.
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WordWolf
Actually, he could have gotten BETTER results had he worked
with the original sources above-board,
rather than hiding them and pretending they didn't exist.
And by "didn't exist" I mean
"a class of Leonard's that became the entire PFAL class"
and "a book of Stiles' that became the entire White Book"
and so on.
He did his students a disservice and wounded Leonard
by demonstrating an UN-Christian lack of integrity.
Only dysfunctional families operate with secrets and liesand pretend things are one way when they are not.
If that's my ONLY choice for a family,
then give me a university where I can at least get HONESTY
and INTEGRITY.
Of course, I'd much prefer a HEALTH FAMILY that ALSO
has honesty and integrity-which is what I insist on now.
Or vpw was making a buck and building his organization
and fan club, breaking the law and disrespecting his
fellow-Christians in the process.
One or the other.
You like it because that's the way he did it. If he'd done it WITHthe footnotes, you'd be arguing FOR that. If he printed the books on
goatskin, you'd argue for THAT.
As we all easily saw from books like "Babylon Mystery Religion",
it is possible to COMPLETELY cite your sources, give credit where
it is due, and STILL have a VERY user-friendly book.
Most of us don't blame God for vpw plagiarizing the works of other
Christians, and vpw certainly knew how to market "his" classes.
Give the man credit for his skills-he was a MASTERFUL marketer.
He had no need whatsoever for God or anyone else to show him
how to position himself in the market.
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WordWolf
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Mike
Dr did BG Leonard a great service. No one would have ever heard of him had it not been for Dr.
WW, you oversimplify. Dr cut out a lot of items from all of the people he learned from.
He contradicts Bullinger and others in many places. He put it all together in one place where they only had some good pieces jammed up with bad pieces in their classes.
The end product of what Dr put together is VASTLY superior to the end products of any of the men he learned from.
The men Dr learned from were blessed to give to us God’s family.
I refuse to respond to your evil thinking of a man who did much, much good.
I experienced the Way of a Father (God) with His family. I’m sorry if you didn’t.
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WordWolf
GROSS lie.
vpw did BG Leonard a gross DISservice.
BG Leonard already had a reputation, and was making
a BIGGER one.
When he found out about vpw's dishonest dealings with
him (lying to him directly and also plagiarizing his work),
Leonard was VERY offended and hurt.
Christians are NOT supposed to do that to each other.
Rather than sue vpw-which was his legal right-he exercised
his choice NOT to, then added elaborate copyright notices
to his books, AND became much more careful about
that sort of thing. In short, if vpw hadn't wounded him,
Leonard wouldnt have "closed up" to the degree he did,
which limited his exposure to other Christians.
And what did vpw do to "publicize" Leonard?
He made one or 2 aside comments about Leonard,
and specified Leonard was not good with the Word.
That was a complete lie, since Leonard was GREAT
with the Word. That's why vpw ripped off his work.
"Publicize" him? He SLANDERED him by saying Leonard
was not good with the Word, KNOWING this was a lie.
Claiming vpw advertised Leonard is like claiming Truth.com
advertises for tobacco companies!
Leonard's class became the first vpw class. The material was all retainedand split into 3 levels. To that was added material from Bullinger and Stiles
and other people. THAT's not oversimplifying.
Neither is saying that vpw NEVER said that simply putting together the
work of those 3 was the sum total of pfal, not counting the jokes.
The homileticist in him just HAD to add some jokes.
Go ahead-
what "bad pieces" did Leonard have in his classes?
And what are you basing this claim on?
I'm looking for an answer more fact-oriented than
"well, they must have, because otherwise vpw wouldn't
have done what he did..."
And he rarely contradicted Bullinger.
Wrong.But they were unable to be offended at being ripped off because
they were dead.
Except for Bullinger-who was blessed to bless Christians-
but hurt specifically because of the actions of vpw.
You refuse to admit the felonies and misdemeanors of a man whodid much, much bad, while wearing a mask of good.
You barely interacted with the man.
Those who DID paint a VERY different story than you.
What you "experienced" mostly is interactions with the books and tapes.
Forgive me for thinking that a man's press is a less-than-objective
source of information ABOUT that man.
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Mike
I know BG Leonard was still into the "gifts" of the spirit instead of the manifestations of the spirit as late as 1986.
Look WordWolf, I don’t want to get bogged down in the minutia you think is important. I have my own minutia I want to get on the table, so please excuse me from your rant about Dr doing bad. I want to focus on the good he did. Do you MIND?
I will focus on that good.
BTW, For me, as a 60’s hippie, there’s NO WAY anyone like BG Leonard could have gotten through to me.
If it weren’t for been-to-Woodstock-naked-and-tripping type hippies telling me:
“Ok, he LOOKS just like a redneck farmer Bible belt preacher, and he SOUNDS just like a redneck farmer Bible belt preacher, and he IS a redneck farmer Bible belt preacher... but he’s cool anyway!”
If Dr hadn’t come with that endorsement from my hippie twig friends, I’d have NEVER given vpw 5 minutes worth of listening. And there were thousands of “downers and outers” just like me who’d have NEVER heard one verse of God’s Word if it hadn’t been for Victor Paul Wierwille and PFAL.
I was there at the '72 Rock when Dr used that phrase to describe us all, including him: “downers and outers.”
I completely reject all your sob stories for BG. BG had not the genius to get his stuff over the world. Look how God worked with Jacob. Jacob was a go-getter. He bent the rules. He got the job done. My hippie friends would have NEVER endorsed BG to me.
Dr was able to relate to us hippies and we moved what God was teaching Dr around the world. The books got written, printed and distributed world wide. They are ready to bless any grad who walks away from all the useless focus on sin and scandal, whether factual or exaggerated or invented.
I an just not interested in engaging in endless discussion of pointless finger pointing and bitter blame gaming. There are wonderful good things to be found in the books.
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