Non-biblical Sources of TWI Practices & Theology:

[sirguessalot]

jkboehme...just a quick shout out to say that i have been reading the commentary on vp and twi alongside all this with great interest...please, keep it coming as you can

[Sunesis]

JK - awesome info, you left me hanging - please continue!

[krys]

wait up just a minute - - I can't understand this so fast, but I'm willing to read it...I have to know.....was I stupid enough be believe a deliberately made up out and out lie? Is that where this is going?

I prayed for people, ministered even, and they got better - - a couple were genuinely miraculous, was I using devil spirits to do that? I know people were changed....I'm just not sure now....that I really helped them.

I need an answer....and I am willing to suffer public humilation to get it.

[sirguessalot]

thought i'd throw this into the mix:

a very good article on 'Esotericism' on Wikipedia

Krys...i'm not sure what to say about you wrote...but i am so so glad you wrote it...truly

because i think it speaks to a lot of things

and as you know, i dont come out of the gsc basement very often

but correct me if im wrong, that was a some sort of heartfelt shout you put out there

anyway, i do hope someone can honor your requests

i can see that there is a truckload of hints of a truckload of taboos being spread out here

and if there is to be any public humiliation to be had

i do hope it is mutual and kind and shared by all

the kind that is full of joyful tears and renewed hope

if ya know what i mean...

we are always all in it together, whether we like it or not

and big or small, everything comes and goes in waves, it seems

Edited January 14, 2006 by sirguessalot

[CM]

there were no healings done by "devil spirits" in the bible

this is a misunderstanding

and a deep subject...

heart is where it's at

[socks]

So, the table has been

Set.

Question - does the devil need a Devil's Advocate or will he need to fight his own battles?

more

Sorry, jkb. Really, you're describing an alternative view of Judeo/Christian faith and how it developed, in general, not just TWI's. Can we make that point here, or am I misreading you?

Weirwille didn't dream up Seth/Prince of Darkness or his storied beheading of Osiris, and probably had only an inkling of Egyptian mytholigies and their influence on Jewish religious traditions. Likewise I doubt he seriously debated dualism or spent much time trying to figure out which way to go - left, right or synthesized. I'm not trying to enter a defense of his theology at this point, but want to make the point that your postings are actually covering a history of how "modern" Christianity is the product of many historical philosphies and religions - certainly one viewpoint.

Am I right or wrong?

Edited January 14, 2006 by socks

[jkboehme]

sirguessalot & krysilis: if there is any public humiliation, it goes for all of us ex-twi, in that we were all scammed and conned by the Cornfield Wizard, VPW. As I have written on my other threads {either Cults or Snapping}, when Belle asked a similar question or raised a similar concern, my opinion is that we were not naive, foolish, stupid, etc. However, due to a transient vulnerability in our personal lives for whatever reason, we were temporarily susceptible to being beguiled by the hermetic hodgepodge of VPW.

socks: I agree that VPW probably did not dig into these remote sources. He was far too lazy & narcissistic. So VPW took the easy route of plagiarizing E.W. Kenyon, who was strongly influenced by Hermetic esotericism. What I am endeavoring to show are some of the more so remote sources of Hermetic esotericism from which the more proximate sources originated, such as the New Thought Metaphysical movement & the related New England Transcendentalism movement.

I am not concerned with the historical background of the mainline denominations. I am concerned about what I feel is one of VPW's most fundamental fraudulent misrepresentations, which is his counterfeit claim that God spoke to him audibly & told him that He would teach VPW the Word as it had not been known since the first century.

Therefore, I am attempting to elucidate, for gscers to consider in their own time & in their own way, what I have investigated concerning both the proximate & remote origins of 'Christianized' Hermetic esotericism. For the most part this material is certainly not the core of 'modern [mainline] Christianity' as far as I know.

At this stage in this thread, I am starting with the pre-Christian 'pagan' Egyptian mythologies, moving on to the Gnostic movements of the first and second millenia, then moving on to Renaissance Hermetic esotericism, then to New Thought Metaphysics (~ 1830 to present, originating in the USA), then on to the Emerson College of Oratory in Boston which Kenyon attended, then on to VPW. VPW via his teutonic ancestry may have had somewhat of a 'jump' on this Renaissance material since such a large amount of the Hermetic esoteric activity took place in Germany and France, including those authors considered to be among the Rhineland Mystics.

I hope I addressed your concern. There are no 'punches' tucked away. You will see as you continue to read the thread the rather obvious parallels to TWI's bizzare theosphy and the history of Hermetic esotericism.

[krys]

Sirguess; CM; socks; I appreciate so much your comfort.

jkb - to me, the term "altruistic" is an insult. It is a term that could be applied even to lower animals and has in and of itself, little humanity.

This thread really doesn't belong up here where ordinary peeps such as myself can get too far into it and frightened out of their wits because they get into it and can't follow it sufficiently and draw the wrong conclusions. I will be happy to read and follow the discussion in the Doctrinal forums, because I can keep proper perspective there. jmnsho

[jkboehme]

krysisis - My intention in utilizing the term 'altruistic' {as in self-less, non-selfish, a giving heart expecting nothing in return, no strings attached} regarding your pure motives was totally in a complementary & praise-worthy sense. My apologies if I was not clear.

[CM]

jkb-i think your intentions are to impart different perspectives

nothing meant to harm or hurt

there is various perspectives to be seen

a wide range of seeing that has not been seen

truly there is a vast universe to explore

[jkboehme]

Clay,

You are correct. And by the way, thanks for giving me the benefit the (ubiquitous and ambient) doubt swirling around gsc regarding this apparently scary & 'taboo' topic. I have absolutely no intention to hurt or harm.

What I am trying to compose in the threads is a distillation of my reading over the past several years after having left TWI.

My first concern upon leaving was, "How in the world did VPW beguile, seduce, deceive, & scam me/us so badly that I didn't even realize that the non-consented covert packaged persuasion of thought reform was happening?" The distillation of that reading is in my two threads, Snapping & Cults.

My next concern, which has been far more difficult to unravel, was, "Where in the world did VPW find all of this bizzare material, and how did he camoflage it so well that we thought it was purely Biblical?" This thread is the redux of that reading.

I am certainly thrilled if this thread is of benefit to anyone here at gsc. I have had a handful of PMs from various gscers who are very thankful for this topic. This thread, due to its depth, may be too painful for some folks to handle.

Keep in mind that I have had several years to be weep, become enraged, melancholic, & to slowly digest this disturbing information. Therefore, for those who find it troubling, I might suggest reading it in small amounts, then taking several days or weeks, perhaps along with your own reading, before returning to this thread.

I do not mean this is a disparaging way, but this thread is not for the faint of heart. It is for those who want to know that they know that they know [who once thought that they knew that they knew that they knew the 'accuracy & integrity of VPW's Hermetic esoteric 'Christianity'] the sources of VPW's/TWI's fraudulent misrepresentations regarding his source materials, both proximate and remote.

Peace

[CM]

twi reminds me of Simon the sorcerer who bewitched people

if you can relate to that it's somewhat similar imo

[krys]

jkb: apology accepted, thank you. I read and swallowed whole about 6 months of your hard in about 15 minutes - no wonder I couldn't digest it.

Now that I understand you better, I appreciate your motive and will eventually understand what you're presenting. I will absolutely take your suggestion and chew on it a little at a time.

I underand and agree CM; we even made a little statue of our Simon, didn't we.

Edited January 14, 2006 by krysilis

[socks]

Thanks jkb. Paste on. I'm not an expert on any of the fields being pasted in, so don't want to come off that way. But I've studied a lot of the same things over the years, and have my own conclusions on some of it, others I'll likely continue to read and ponder for years. If this has helped you, good. There are some very interesting threads of thought that run through a lot of this material.

I just wanted to make a final note to your comment Krys-

I prayed for people, ministered even, and they got better - - a couple were genuinely miraculous, was I using devil spirits to do that? I know people were changed....I'm just not sure now....that I really helped them.

Short answer, knowing you and your times and from what you say - "no", and yes your intent to help was an honorable one. I don't think the logical conclusion to the information being pasted in here is that to pray to God and want to help others is wrong. The heart is all anyone has to work with at anytime, really.- the best of of who you are and what you want to do.

[krys]

Thank you socks.

[themex]

:blink:

[jkboehme]

Hang in there, mex, hopefully by the end of the thread it will all come together & fit very well (but not like a hand in a glove)!!!

[jkboehme]

[To my way of thinking, this also explains in part VPW's tendency to be drawn to the Hermetic and Gnostic writings of the spiritually eclectic E.W. Kenyon, from which a significant portion of the underlying TWI doctrinal positions are taken. Also further explaining VPW's proclivity for Arianism and Nestorianism (and therefore the fascination with Turkish LAMSA, and ultimately the publication of Jesus Christ is Not God), in the late 300's CE, an Arian/Nestorian monk of Byzantine eastern Christianity, ULFILAS, evangelized the Teutonic tribes of present day Germany. He taught Arian/Nestorian Christianity to the barbaric Gothic tribes of Germany, who readily accepted this, in part due to the fact that it fit with their Gothic concepts of the pagan godhead.]

Edited January 24, 2006 by jkboehme

[themex]

:o

[oldiesman]

[Oneluckymutha]

Well, since you ask. I recently was reading through my copy of "Think & Grow Rich" by Napoleon Hill.

And, several parts of that book reminded me of VPW teachings. I don't often think about Way stuff or VPW, but this book reminded me of it.

This is a "success" self help type book that first came out in the 1960's, so it would be right in the era of VPW and sources he could draw from.

I don't have side by side quotes, but it is more the ideas like: negative & positive believing, the power of thoughts, energy of your conviction, etc.

Some of it made me think that VPW must have read this book a few times!!

Personally, the longer I live and am exposed to other sources outside the Way, the more I am convinced that VPW came up with very little that was original. Many times I have been listening to a preacher or reading a book of some sort and thought, wow, that could have been quoted from VPW.

At one time, I thought everything VPW taught was all stuff he came up with & nobody in the world had ever heard any of it before. Hee, hee. Oh well, chalk it up to my own naievity.

Luv,

Oneluckymutha

[excathedra]

except for "magic of thinking big" that was his

[jkboehme]

I will get into it a somewhat more after the current review on Gnostic dualism, but there was a body of 'success' literature that came about just after 1900. The most influential of all of these publications was, The Power Book Library, by Frank Haddock (1907).

The book I will review at that time will be, The Positive Thinkers: Religion as Pop Psychology from Mary Baker Eddy to Oral Roberts, by Dr. Donald Meyer, 1965, reissue 1980 by Pantheon/Random House. {original title of the 1965 book, The Positive Thinkers: A Study of the American Quest for Health, Wealth, and Personal Power from Mary Baker Eddy to Norman Vincent Peale}.

This book, in addition to, The History and Philosophy of the Metaphysical Movements in America, by J. Stilson Judah, will complete the core of the material regarding the sources from which VPW stole his material.

{That is, in addition to Modern Esoteric Spirituality already reviewed, and The Other God: Dualist Religions...}

[excathedra]

i take it you know i was joking

original title of the 1965 book, The Positive Thinkers: A Study of the American Quest for Health, Wealth, and Personal Power from Mary Baker Eddy to Norman Vincent Peale

now that sounds like really something

i hope you're writing a book

can i have a copy ?

[Oneluckymutha]

Wow, those books JKBoheme refers to sound really interesting. I might look into that someday.

This reminds me of Joel Osteen. Have you ever seen this guy on t.v.? He is supposedly the pastor of the LARGEST church in the U.S. right now. I think he is in Texas somewhere.

Listening to that guy is like being at a self help seminar. It's easy to get sucked into it. It's real feel good stuff and people just eat it up. Problem is, he's trying to pawn it off as teaching the bible. He hardly even uses the bible to teach. It's all about the self esteem thing.

Personally, I've always been somewhat of a self help junkie. But, I am aware of the distinction between true bible teaching and the self-help/success/self-esteem thing. I don't think it's all bad, and can be useful, but it's not the gospel.

Anyway, keep up the good info. It's a good thread.