I think there people who claim to be connectors with the dead cause they so yearn for something and have no clue what they are tampering with, also, it seems there are spirit substances that do connect with some but I thinks it is to cause confusion to say the least....
I also thinks it a part of the mind detiorating..I know from working in healthcare that drugs are stimulators of nervouse system, respitatory, renal, thorastic, etc..not regulated corrected..one can experiance alot of out of body stuff..or out of mind..
People with alzheimer's may get confused and think they are talking to some long dead friend or relative. My Mom, on drugs after surgery, was sure I was some relative that died like 30 years ago. It is interesting how the mind holds these things vividly somewhere in memory.
"The mind is a terrible thing."
If the dead are alive, and they sometimes talk to us, why don't they talk to us all the time? It should be like in "Beetlejuice" ... they could hang out with us, be a regular part of the family. But I don't know where life came from, so how can I say where life goes? :P
What I'm wondering though is ...how do you derail a thread? ... do threads run on rails?
The doctors told me I had dame bramage ... but none of my friends know what that sheet is!
Belle I think maybe you derailed your own thread, but that's ok. You introduced the subject I was following your lead. I thought that the thread was taking a new turn like cabana boys and slaves. I thought this was your question, it looked like one
There are accounts all throughout the Bible of people seeing dead people, talking to spirits, etc. How did we go from that to "the dead are dead" and if you see dead people you're possessed?
You are correct in saying it is easy to say that YOU are living God's will according to the Bible. People say lots of things that does not make them true. The point where you can tell which camp is speaking truthfully is in lining it up with scripture. Leaving aside the Bible for a moment it is evident that from the definitions that you are either one or another. Once established that you can't be dead and alive in the physical sense we can see that people in the Bible follow the same pattern. The definitions were to establish that pattern.
That’s all nice and well, I have a dictionary, too. First, I stated it was just one example. I'm interested in the teaching that the bible contains EVERYTHING THAT PERTAINS TO LIFE AND GODLINESS and that the Bible is the Will of God. Second, this still doesn’t the comment about how one can connect all the dead people appearing to people in the Bible and other “like phenomena” with the teaching that the dead are dead.
If people are dead in the Bible then that would mean that they are not alive. So someone seeing them would have several options why much the same as today. Already mentioned medical conditions, mental conditions, spiritual conditions, could be a vision or dream. One thing for sure it is not a dead person .
I don't mention this to discuss the dead, but to show how easy it is to say that YOU are living God's will according to the Bible with as much conviction as someone who also believes that HE/SHE is living God's will according to the Bible.
What about these?
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Mar 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
Act 16:9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
Astral traveling, again? Is Paul a Shaman? How come people these days believe that God doesn’t send angels or have to tell people things now since it’s all recorded in the Bible? I realize this isn’t talking about a dead person, but it is a vision that if someone who subscribed to TWIt doctrine had, they would totally freak out and think they were possessed instead of accepting and recognize as a true vision because of how we were taught.
For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, [concerning] him that hath so done this deed.
So??? He was astral traveling???
I don't get your point ... it seems this is just about ... like when I watch the Illini lose on TV ... I'm absent in body, but present in spirit, and feel the pain as though I were present ... and I have judged already they should be ranked 20, not 6.
Maybe I missed something ... Belle, are you arguing the dead are alive now? Fine with me if you are ... maybe they are ... I'm not sure the dead will ever be alive, but haven't ruled anything out ... just not clear on what you are saying ... I guess you are referring to stuff like NT guys getting rev or visions from OT guys ...
and who brought up that thing about "it seems there are spirit substances that do connect with some but I thinks it is to cause confusion to say the least...." ? Yes, I wish those substances would shut the heck up. (if you see a smiley face waving in that last sentence, that is my great-grandmother saying hi, just ignore her)
Oh, OK Belle, I just caught up with your last post ... I should refresh more often :)
For though absent in body I am present in spirit, and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment 4 in the name of the Lord Jesus on the man who has done such a thing. When you are assembled, and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, (Revised Standard Ver.)
Maybe a little clearer in the RSV
Vs 3 ....in spirit{pneuma] is a dative construction and ought to be translated as ....by way of the spirit [used refering to spirit in manifestation]
vs 4 .... Paul though actually absent in body,speaks of himself as being present on account of his judgement given in verse 3 ,and associated with metonymy of cause - where the word spirit is put for the work of the holy spirit within man.
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Mar 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
Act 16:9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
Without a lengthy explanation I think your answer is in the verses - a vision
How come people these days believe that God doesn’t send angels or have to tell people things now since it’s all recorded in the Bible? I realize this isn’t talking about a dead person, but it is a vision that if someone who subscribed to TWIt doctrine had, they would totally freak out and think they were possessed instead of accepting and recognize as a true vision because of how we were taught.
I don't know Belle we were in different ways I suppose. I do not remember being taught to discount that fact. I would agreee with you I think angels and Jesus himself appear at times. I suppose we are shocked or surprised because it is not the norm. But it is certainly in the realm of possibility.
Very good in seperating..it can be confusing, even when I read the word..I need to chew on things still..over and over..
I do believe God sends Angels.....probaly on very special missions:) someone once told me an angel kept a glass of pop that spilled from dripping on her dress....wwelllll
RHino- I have been around elderly who thought I was thier neice or relative...In thier eyes and countenant they just wore a huge smile when I would go into that unit..I always had to stop and just hold thier hand for a few minutes..very sad...
I pretty much agree with TWI doctrine that the dead are dead.
there are spirits, who for whatever reasons, will try to trick us into different doctrines. they can masquerade as dead people, we should not find our doctrine from them.
The spirit that which makes you you and comes from GOD is alvie after the physical body dies. At the ressurection that spirit will be reunited with a perfect physical body
Here are a few passages to consider. The only thing I ask is that you consider these passages on their own merit and don't apply pre-existing private interpretation that was inculcated into all of us at one point in time:
Luk 16:19 "There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day.
Luk 16:20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz'arus, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried;
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz'arus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz'arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.'
Luk 23:42 And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
Luk 23:43 And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."
2Cr 5:8 We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
(note: the word "be away" in the above verse is derived from the Greek word ekdemeo, which means "to go abroad, depart". "At home" in the above is derived from the Greek endemeo, which means to be among one's own people. Both words are derived from the word demos: "the people, the population, a group assembled in a place" -- note the interesting usage and the similarities between the two words discussed here)
Phl 1:23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.
Phl 1:24 But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account.
Hbr 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us,
(btw, in each other use of the word 'martus', the usage is in the literal sense...there is no reason to believe that this one is a figurative use)
Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne;
Rev 6:10 they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?"
Rev 6:11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Rev 7:9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
Rev 7:10 and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb!"
Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round the throne and round the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
Rev 7:12 saying, "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God for ever and ever! Amen."
Rev 7:13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, and whence have they come?"
Rev 7:14 I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night within his temple; and he who sits upon the throne will shelter them with his presence.
Rev 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat.
Rev 7:17 For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water; and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."
I would ask what is it that makes you- you? Is it the spirit? Were you not you before you recieved spirit? Is the soul the spirit? What exactly does that make your soul? Does your soul have anything to do with your brain?
Being somewhat interested in science, it seems to me that most things that make you- you have everything to do with your DNA and your brain. Which is mind boggling in and of itself. It is just tissue with a bunch of electrical charges flying around and chemicals passing through and some how it all comes out making sense to you and I in the real world. Thinking, loving, obsessing, raging, healing, hurting, laughing, crying all can be triggered by chemicals and electrical impulses. The same way one goes through withdraw after coming off a drug- one goes through withdraw after losing love. And that is just the tip of the iceberg, so to speak.
So what is it that goes back to God in the way of spirit? Is it a real thing (being) or is it just a connector? Or is it a figure of speech communicating the connection?
If you die and what makes you- you is your body and soul, then when you get a new body it would seem part of you was missing. If it is just your soul that makes up you then that would defy all science knows about the brain.
And is it really you then when you get a new body? I mean can anyone here really think that your soul is completely seperate from your body and there is no necessary connection between the two? So when you get your new perfect body can it still really be you (the YOU that YOU are) by mearly transplanting your soul? So how would this new you start? As a newborn? Would that still really be YOU or would it be more like reincarnation?
Since we are looking at definitions- "incarnate" comes from Latin basically meaning "in the flesh"
or " invested with bodily and especially human nature and form b : made manifest or comprehensible "
So if you get a new body isn't that what is happening...reincarnation?
I worked with a PHD. in the Pubic Educational System, who worked with children which had behavioral and emotional problems. She in her younger days decided to go to India and converted to Hinduism. She was the Chief Editor of a Hindi magazine while she was there.She changed her american name to Indian.
One day during our free break time we starting talking about a book(on the top of the charts) that she had read. It was about life after death..for a half hour she explained in great glorious detail how during passing there is a beautiful glow within the mind and tunnel where the spirit passes thru into the other world..also, within this wall are hands reaching and pulling one into the next world. she propheticaly made mention of others helping to pull this spirit thru into a great light. I said to her, so if someone dies instantly, does one experiance this as well...Like someone who legs are severed off or where the systems shut instantly..Just a simple question..she was so appauled that I questioned her thinking after the delivery of artistic and spiritual expression...I also,told her about the book,"Are The Dead Alive Now" that I had just read.. their is no conscious among these types...there is no limit to thier boundaries..Death is not a good thing and it hurts the living..it is final..as I know it..I can only go as far as I have been taught...welllll
Off topic
..6 months later I reported her to the Superintendant for the writing on the backboard " do not be afraid of Homosexuals"......I felt that was extreme....she in her artistic expression was telling children at the age of 10-14, emotionaly and behavioraly messed up.....how to deal with gay people..isnt that the parents place?? The kids did not trust her. I had many come to me and confide with things that were troubing them, yes, even death...some were thinking of suicide, etc.I resigned and she moved to California 2 yrs. to embelish and thrive within her own...this is another story..The Principal who was a Christian thanked me..
I see no contradiction either when we assume God's timelessness.
If God is outside of the flow of the time-line: If from God's perspective He can see all of time as if laid out before Him, then he can see you at your birth, at your nearest to Him, at your death, and risen living in Heaven.
Man often defines The Resurrection as that future time when it will all happen. What if it is not confined to time either. It is a God thing. I am sure that it will happen at some time, there will be a finite time when Christ Jesus will return to the Earth to rescue us.
Holy men of God on occasion were drawn so close to God that they received visions of future or past events, momentarily their enjoyed a brief glimpse of God's viewpoint. Such that they were able to share their Revelations with us via the Scripture. We see examples even in Jesus' ministry when he was called to meet Moses and Elijah.
If a believer's next waking moment after death is in the Resurrection; who is to say that that believer's spirit was not drawn closer to God and immediately 'forward' to The Resurrection.
Death is death and in it is no thought, no glory, no victory, no joy.
But we know that we will not stay there. We know that we have Resurrection on our side and that our next waking moment will be in The Resurrection. I see no evidence that during this time, that dead spirits are hanging around anywhere. And we know that dead spirits have no thoughts no memories. And since time itself is a construct within which we operate, then why can't we simply be drawn toward God in our death and immediately be risen in that 'future' Resurrection?
Rhino, I don't know what I'm asking. ;) I just know that these are some of the teachings, phrases and scriptures that I've been reconsidering in light of no long seeing things through TWIt colored glasses. I don't really have a viewpoint or a reason for asking except to share what kinds of things I've been thinking about and to get other ideas on the subjects.
Mark, that's EXACTLY the kind of thing I was talking about! How can someone reconcile those with TWIt doctrine? :) Thank you!
It seems the more I read on spirit and afterlife and other beliefs that the Bible seems to have a lot more references to the energy and essence of the metaphysical (not sure of the term). Like the woman who touched the hem of JC's tunic and he "felt energy leave him". Is it the same sort of thing as the hands on healing, reiki, or something along those lines? Do chakras and other body energy philosophies come into play in the Bible?
Lindy, good thoughts! Is it the "soul" that makes us who we are or is it "spirit"? If it's just the spirit that goes to God, then are we going to be a totally different person when we get our new heavenly body? My ex used to say that there would be no marriage in heaven because we wouldn't need it. It made me sad, at the time, to think that we would spend our lives together here on earth, but not in heaven for eternity. I married him because I wanted us to be together forever - including in heaven.
Reincarnation. :) Very true and good points you make. A new body would be reincarnation. When does it happen? Does it happen more than once?
I've been learning about the Unified Field Theory that we're all connected somehow through energy and that's why we all affect each other so profoundly at times. Energy, chemical reactions and such affect our bodies, our minds and our personalities. Don't others strongly affect us in different ways? How does that tie in to everything?
Galen, very, very interesting perspective!
If a believer's next waking moment after death is in the Resurrection; who is to say that that believer's spirit was not drawn closer to God and immediately 'forward' to The Resurrection.
Time travel to boot! I hadn't thought of it in that light, but it's definitely something to ponder.
There are so many smart people here at the Cafe! I'm so glad that you take the time to come here, share your thoughts and humor poor ignorant souls like me. :D
Like an eagle - For what it's worth I enjoy your input so don't feel your words are lost. You know the old saying you can lead a horse to water....... Guess us birds will have to stick together......
Likaeagle, I enjoyed reading your post! I actually enjoy all your posts! You do bring up a good question and obviously that lady didn't want to be challenged. Which could mean they aren't as convinced about something they claim to believe in, don't know and don't want to admit they don't know :) , or any other number of reasons. It also seems this woman obviously had some kind of agenda. I would have wanted her gone, too! She was taking advantage of and abusing those children. I say abuse because they trusted her as a teacher and person in authority - they should have been able to, anyway. And kids attribute great amounts of intelligence to teachers. It's good that those children recognized her true nature.
IF what she taught was correct (and I'm not saying that it is - I truly don't know what's correct right now), then I see no problem with the tunnel and the light still being there. Death is really an instantaneous act regardless if one has been ill for a long time, gotten really old or been shot with a gun. You're breathing one minute and the next minute you're not.
I have an aunt who believes that she helped my great-uncle "pass over". She had a dream/vision/something and our cousin who died in his 20's in a car crash was standing at her bed. He told her that Uncle Pete needed help crossing over. She got up and went with him where he showed her a waiting room where Uncle Pete was sitting, looking lost, she took him by the hand and talked to him and then showed him the hallway to go down where there was a bright light at the end of it. The next morning she got a phone call from one of Uncle Pete's kids telling her that Uncle Pete had died.
Now, I don't know what to think about that. I really believe my aunt believes that that happened and that she was astral travelling. She hadn't talked to any of Uncle Pete's side of the family, nor Uncle Pete in probably six months or even longer than that. She didn't share this with anybody else because she knows they would think she was crazy. She can talk to me and know that I won't judge her for it. (FUNNY cause that's exactly how I was before TWI and it's exactly how I am now, but for eight years in the middle I was uber b1tch and not even pleasant for "normal" conversation.)
So, I'm sorry that I didn't comment directly on your post. It wasn't that I was ignoring you or didn't appreciate your input. :) I actually spent a bit of time thinking about what you posted, just neglected to tell you. I apologize.
Oh Belle- no neeed to appologize at all..I never felt neglected...I dont look for responses either..I just kind of hop in here and there with my little imputs, gramatical errors and all.:)
I know when my mom got sick, post surgery, while still in the hospital she was in so much pain, she literaly kicked the Dr.'s and nurses out of her room. she refused treatment..she would only take her meds from me.So I literaly climbed into bed with her and stayed there till she feel asleep and would leave and then my sis woud go in an call me to come back.THe dr.s coudnt find the problem, she went in for surgery but "Coded" during surgery for a biopsy. I had the same test done to me 3 wks prior, but mine was Thorastic. She fell asleep 2 days later..we were at her side 24/7. I did all the Funeral arrangements with my dear friend Rev.Joe Guorini..The only thing that kept my family some what peaceful was the word of God..
I missed her so much and still do..But I know where to put my thoughts when it comes to death..
The spirit that which makes you you and comes from GOD is alive after the physical body dies. At the ressurection that spirit will be reunited with a perfect physical body
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
8
7
9
6
Popular Days
Jan 21
15
Jan 22
9
Jan 24
7
Jan 25
7
Top Posters In This Topic
Belle 8 posts
likeaneagle 7 posts
WhiteDove 9 posts
markomalley 6 posts
Popular Days
Jan 21 2006
15 posts
Jan 22 2006
9 posts
Jan 24 2006
7 posts
Jan 25 2006
7 posts
likeaneagle
In the bible it talks about death as being final.
no thought life
no emotions
no brain waves
no pulse
Its final
I think there people who claim to be connectors with the dead cause they so yearn for something and have no clue what they are tampering with, also, it seems there are spirit substances that do connect with some but I thinks it is to cause confusion to say the least....
I also thinks it a part of the mind detiorating..I know from working in healthcare that drugs are stimulators of nervouse system, respitatory, renal, thorastic, etc..not regulated corrected..one can experiance alot of out of body stuff..or out of mind..
Edited by likeaneagleLink to comment
Share on other sites
rhino
People with alzheimer's may get confused and think they are talking to some long dead friend or relative. My Mom, on drugs after surgery, was sure I was some relative that died like 30 years ago. It is interesting how the mind holds these things vividly somewhere in memory.
If the dead are alive, and they sometimes talk to us, why don't they talk to us all the time? It should be like in "Beetlejuice" ... they could hang out with us, be a regular part of the family. But I don't know where life came from, so how can I say where life goes? :P
What I'm wondering though is ...how do you derail a thread? ... do threads run on rails?
The doctors told me I had dame bramage ... but none of my friends know what that sheet is!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
bliss
Are we discussing what the word "dead" means, or where we go AFTER death?
Seems the two can be different.
Edited by blissLink to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
n.
1.
1. The vital principle or animating force within living beings.
2. Incorporeal consciousness.
2. The soul, considered as departing from the body of a person at death.
4. A supernatural being, as:
1. An angel or a demon.
2. A being inhabiting or embodying a particular place, object, or natural phenomenon.
3. A fairy or sprite.
5.
1. The part of a human associated with the mind, will, and feelings: Though unable to join us today, they are with us in spirit.
2. The essential nature of a person or group.
spirit
(Heb. ruah; Gr. pneuma), properly wind or breath. In 2 Thess. 2:8 it means
"breath," and in Eccl. 8:8 the vital principle in man. It also denotes the
rational, immortal soul by which man is distinguished (Acts 7:59; 1 Cor. 5:5;
6:20; 7:34), and the soul in its separate state (Heb. 12:23), and hence also an
apparition (Job 4:15; Luke 24:37, 39), an angel (Heb. 1:14), and a demon (Luke
4:36; 10:20). This word is used also metaphorically as denoting a tendency
(Zech. 12:10; Luke 13:11). In Rom. 1:4, 1 Tim. 3:16, 2 Cor. 3:17, 1 Pet. 3:18,
it designates the divine nature.
1 Cor 5:3
For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, [concerning] him that hath so done this deed.
So??? He was astral traveling???
Edited by BelleLink to comment
Share on other sites
WhiteDove
Belle I think maybe you derailed your own thread, but that's ok. You introduced the subject I was following your lead. I thought that the thread was taking a new turn like cabana boys and slaves. I thought this was your question, it looked like one
You are correct in saying it is easy to say that YOU are living God's will according to the Bible. People say lots of things that does not make them true. The point where you can tell which camp is speaking truthfully is in lining it up with scripture. Leaving aside the Bible for a moment it is evident that from the definitions that you are either one or another. Once established that you can't be dead and alive in the physical sense we can see that people in the Bible follow the same pattern. The definitions were to establish that pattern.If people are dead in the Bible then that would mean that they are not alive. So someone seeing them would have several options why much the same as today. Already mentioned medical conditions, mental conditions, spiritual conditions, could be a vision or dream. One thing for sure it is not a dead person .
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
What about these?
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Mar 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
Act 16:9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
Astral traveling, again? Is Paul a Shaman? How come people these days believe that God doesn’t send angels or have to tell people things now since it’s all recorded in the Bible? I realize this isn’t talking about a dead person, but it is a vision that if someone who subscribed to TWIt doctrine had, they would totally freak out and think they were possessed instead of accepting and recognize as a true vision because of how we were taught.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rhino
I don't get your point ... it seems this is just about ... like when I watch the Illini lose on TV ... I'm absent in body, but present in spirit, and feel the pain as though I were present ... and I have judged already they should be ranked 20, not 6.
Maybe I missed something ... Belle, are you arguing the dead are alive now? Fine with me if you are ... maybe they are ... I'm not sure the dead will ever be alive, but haven't ruled anything out ... just not clear on what you are saying ... I guess you are referring to stuff like NT guys getting rev or visions from OT guys ...
and who brought up that thing about "it seems there are spirit substances that do connect
with some but I thinks it is to cause confusion to say the least...." ? Yes, I wish those substances would shut the heck up. (if you see a smiley face waving in that last sentence, that is my great-grandmother saying hi, just ignore her)
Oh, OK Belle, I just caught up with your last post ... I should refresh more often :)
Edited by rhinoLink to comment
Share on other sites
WhiteDove
I Corinthians 5:3,4
For though absent in body I am present in spirit, and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment 4 in the name of the Lord Jesus on the man who has done such a thing. When you are assembled, and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, (Revised Standard Ver.)
Maybe a little clearer in the RSV
Vs 3 ....in spirit{pneuma] is a dative construction and ought to be translated as ....by way of the spirit [used refering to spirit in manifestation]
vs 4 .... Paul though actually absent in body,speaks of himself as being present on account of his judgement given in verse 3 ,and associated with metonymy of cause - where the word spirit is put for the work of the holy spirit within man.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WhiteDove
What about these?
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Mar 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
Act 16:9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
Without a lengthy explanation I think your answer is in the verses - a vision
I don't know Belle we were in different ways I suppose. I do not remember being taught to discount that fact. I would agreee with you I think angels and Jesus himself appear at times. I suppose we are shocked or surprised because it is not the norm. But it is certainly in the realm of possibility.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
likeaneagle
Thank you WhiteDove-
Very good in seperating..it can be confusing, even when I read the word..I need to chew on things still..over and over..
I do believe God sends Angels.....probaly on very special missions:) someone once told me an angel kept a glass of pop that spilled from dripping on her dress....wwelllll
RHino- I have been around elderly who thought I was thier neice or relative...In thier eyes and countenant they just wore a huge smile when I would go into that unit..I always had to stop and just hold thier hand for a few minutes..very sad...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Galen
I pretty much agree with TWI doctrine that the dead are dead.
there are spirits, who for whatever reasons, will try to trick us into different doctrines. they can masquerade as dead people, we should not find our doctrine from them.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
templelady
The spirit that which makes you you and comes from GOD is alvie after the physical body dies. At the ressurection that spirit will be reunited with a perfect physical body
Link to comment
Share on other sites
markomalley
Belle,
Here are a few passages to consider. The only thing I ask is that you consider these passages on their own merit and don't apply pre-existing private interpretation that was inculcated into all of us at one point in time:
Luk 16:19 "There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day.
Luk 16:20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz'arus, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried;
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz'arus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz'arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.'
Luk 23:42 And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
Luk 23:43 And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."
2Cr 5:8 We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
(note: the word "be away" in the above verse is derived from the Greek word ekdemeo, which means "to go abroad, depart". "At home" in the above is derived from the Greek endemeo, which means to be among one's own people. Both words are derived from the word demos: "the people, the population, a group assembled in a place" -- note the interesting usage and the similarities between the two words discussed here)
Phl 1:23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.
Phl 1:24 But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account.
Hbr 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us,
(btw, in each other use of the word 'martus', the usage is in the literal sense...there is no reason to believe that this one is a figurative use)
Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne;
Rev 6:10 they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?"
Rev 6:11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Rev 7:9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
Rev 7:10 and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb!"
Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round the throne and round the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
Rev 7:12 saying, "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God for ever and ever! Amen."
Rev 7:13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, and whence have they come?"
Rev 7:14 I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night within his temple; and he who sits upon the throne will shelter them with his presence.
Rev 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat.
Rev 7:17 For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water; and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."
Just something to consider...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
lindyhopper
I would ask what is it that makes you- you? Is it the spirit? Were you not you before you recieved spirit? Is the soul the spirit? What exactly does that make your soul? Does your soul have anything to do with your brain?
Being somewhat interested in science, it seems to me that most things that make you- you have everything to do with your DNA and your brain. Which is mind boggling in and of itself. It is just tissue with a bunch of electrical charges flying around and chemicals passing through and some how it all comes out making sense to you and I in the real world. Thinking, loving, obsessing, raging, healing, hurting, laughing, crying all can be triggered by chemicals and electrical impulses. The same way one goes through withdraw after coming off a drug- one goes through withdraw after losing love. And that is just the tip of the iceberg, so to speak.
So what is it that goes back to God in the way of spirit? Is it a real thing (being) or is it just a connector? Or is it a figure of speech communicating the connection?
If you die and what makes you- you is your body and soul, then when you get a new body it would seem part of you was missing. If it is just your soul that makes up you then that would defy all science knows about the brain.
And is it really you then when you get a new body? I mean can anyone here really think that your soul is completely seperate from your body and there is no necessary connection between the two? So when you get your new perfect body can it still really be you (the YOU that YOU are) by mearly transplanting your soul? So how would this new you start? As a newborn? Would that still really be YOU or would it be more like reincarnation?
Since we are looking at definitions- "incarnate" comes from Latin basically meaning "in the flesh"
or " invested with bodily and especially human nature and form b : made manifest or comprehensible "
So if you get a new body isn't that what is happening...reincarnation?
That leads us down a whole other road.
Edited by lindyhopperLink to comment
Share on other sites
likeaneagle
Reincarnation-Life after death
I worked with a PHD. in the Pubic Educational System, who worked with children which had behavioral and emotional problems. She in her younger days decided to go to India and converted to Hinduism. She was the Chief Editor of a Hindi magazine while she was there.She changed her american name to Indian.
One day during our free break time we starting talking about a book(on the top of the charts) that she had read. It was about life after death..for a half hour she explained in great glorious detail how during passing there is a beautiful glow within the mind and tunnel where the spirit passes thru into the other world..also, within this wall are hands reaching and pulling one into the next world. she propheticaly made mention of others helping to pull this spirit thru into a great light. I said to her, so if someone dies instantly, does one experiance this as well...Like someone who legs are severed off or where the systems shut instantly..Just a simple question..she was so appauled that I questioned her thinking after the delivery of artistic and spiritual expression...I also,told her about the book,"Are The Dead Alive Now" that I had just read.. their is no conscious among these types...there is no limit to thier boundaries..Death is not a good thing and it hurts the living..it is final..as I know it..I can only go as far as I have been taught...welllll
Off topic
..6 months later I reported her to the Superintendant for the writing on the backboard " do not be afraid of Homosexuals"......I felt that was extreme....she in her artistic expression was telling children at the age of 10-14, emotionaly and behavioraly messed up.....how to deal with gay people..isnt that the parents place?? The kids did not trust her. I had many come to me and confide with things that were troubing them, yes, even death...some were thinking of suicide, etc.I resigned and she moved to California 2 yrs. to embelish and thrive within her own...this is another story..The Principal who was a Christian thanked me..
Edited by likeaneagleLink to comment
Share on other sites
Galen
I see no contradiction either when we assume God's timelessness.
If God is outside of the flow of the time-line: If from God's perspective He can see all of time as if laid out before Him, then he can see you at your birth, at your nearest to Him, at your death, and risen living in Heaven.
Man often defines The Resurrection as that future time when it will all happen. What if it is not confined to time either. It is a God thing. I am sure that it will happen at some time, there will be a finite time when Christ Jesus will return to the Earth to rescue us.
Holy men of God on occasion were drawn so close to God that they received visions of future or past events, momentarily their enjoyed a brief glimpse of God's viewpoint. Such that they were able to share their Revelations with us via the Scripture. We see examples even in Jesus' ministry when he was called to meet Moses and Elijah.
If a believer's next waking moment after death is in the Resurrection; who is to say that that believer's spirit was not drawn closer to God and immediately 'forward' to The Resurrection.
Death is death and in it is no thought, no glory, no victory, no joy.
But we know that we will not stay there. We know that we have Resurrection on our side and that our next waking moment will be in The Resurrection. I see no evidence that during this time, that dead spirits are hanging around anywhere. And we know that dead spirits have no thoughts no memories. And since time itself is a construct within which we operate, then why can't we simply be drawn toward God in our death and immediately be risen in that 'future' Resurrection?
:)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
These are AWESOME responses!! Thank you all!
Rhino, I don't know what I'm asking. ;) I just know that these are some of the teachings, phrases and scriptures that I've been reconsidering in light of no long seeing things through TWIt colored glasses. I don't really have a viewpoint or a reason for asking except to share what kinds of things I've been thinking about and to get other ideas on the subjects.
Mark, that's EXACTLY the kind of thing I was talking about! How can someone reconcile those with TWIt doctrine? :) Thank you!
It seems the more I read on spirit and afterlife and other beliefs that the Bible seems to have a lot more references to the energy and essence of the metaphysical (not sure of the term). Like the woman who touched the hem of JC's tunic and he "felt energy leave him". Is it the same sort of thing as the hands on healing, reiki, or something along those lines? Do chakras and other body energy philosophies come into play in the Bible?
Lindy, good thoughts! Is it the "soul" that makes us who we are or is it "spirit"? If it's just the spirit that goes to God, then are we going to be a totally different person when we get our new heavenly body? My ex used to say that there would be no marriage in heaven because we wouldn't need it. It made me sad, at the time, to think that we would spend our lives together here on earth, but not in heaven for eternity. I married him because I wanted us to be together forever - including in heaven.
Reincarnation. :) Very true and good points you make. A new body would be reincarnation. When does it happen? Does it happen more than once?
I've been learning about the Unified Field Theory that we're all connected somehow through energy and that's why we all affect each other so profoundly at times. Energy, chemical reactions and such affect our bodies, our minds and our personalities. Don't others strongly affect us in different ways? How does that tie in to everything?
Galen, very, very interesting perspective!
Time travel to boot! I hadn't thought of it in that light, but it's definitely something to ponder.
There are so many smart people here at the Cafe! I'm so glad that you take the time to come here, share your thoughts and humor poor ignorant souls like me. :D
Link to comment
Share on other sites
likeaneagle
Sorry Belle- my post didnt speak to your needs...I am coming from a Christian like point of view.
Its good to discover life outside the Way isnt it:)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WhiteDove
Like an eagle - For what it's worth I enjoy your input so don't feel your words are lost. You know the old saying you can lead a horse to water....... Guess us birds will have to stick together......
Link to comment
Share on other sites
likeaneagle
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
Likaeagle, I enjoyed reading your post! I actually enjoy all your posts! You do bring up a good question and obviously that lady didn't want to be challenged. Which could mean they aren't as convinced about something they claim to believe in, don't know and don't want to admit they don't know :) , or any other number of reasons. It also seems this woman obviously had some kind of agenda. I would have wanted her gone, too! She was taking advantage of and abusing those children. I say abuse because they trusted her as a teacher and person in authority - they should have been able to, anyway. And kids attribute great amounts of intelligence to teachers. It's good that those children recognized her true nature.
IF what she taught was correct (and I'm not saying that it is - I truly don't know what's correct right now), then I see no problem with the tunnel and the light still being there. Death is really an instantaneous act regardless if one has been ill for a long time, gotten really old or been shot with a gun. You're breathing one minute and the next minute you're not.
I have an aunt who believes that she helped my great-uncle "pass over". She had a dream/vision/something and our cousin who died in his 20's in a car crash was standing at her bed. He told her that Uncle Pete needed help crossing over. She got up and went with him where he showed her a waiting room where Uncle Pete was sitting, looking lost, she took him by the hand and talked to him and then showed him the hallway to go down where there was a bright light at the end of it. The next morning she got a phone call from one of Uncle Pete's kids telling her that Uncle Pete had died.
Now, I don't know what to think about that. I really believe my aunt believes that that happened and that she was astral travelling. She hadn't talked to any of Uncle Pete's side of the family, nor Uncle Pete in probably six months or even longer than that. She didn't share this with anybody else because she knows they would think she was crazy. She can talk to me and know that I won't judge her for it. (FUNNY cause that's exactly how I was before TWI and it's exactly how I am now, but for eight years in the middle I was uber b1tch and not even pleasant for "normal" conversation.)
So, I'm sorry that I didn't comment directly on your post. It wasn't that I was ignoring you or didn't appreciate your input. :) I actually spent a bit of time thinking about what you posted, just neglected to tell you. I apologize.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
likeaneagle
Oh Belle- no neeed to appologize at all..I never felt neglected...I dont look for responses either..I just kind of hop in here and there with my little imputs, gramatical errors and all.:)
I know when my mom got sick, post surgery, while still in the hospital she was in so much pain, she literaly kicked the Dr.'s and nurses out of her room. she refused treatment..she would only take her meds from me.So I literaly climbed into bed with her and stayed there till she feel asleep and would leave and then my sis woud go in an call me to come back.THe dr.s coudnt find the problem, she went in for surgery but "Coded" during surgery for a biopsy. I had the same test done to me 3 wks prior, but mine was Thorastic. She fell asleep 2 days later..we were at her side 24/7. I did all the Funeral arrangements with my dear friend Rev.Joe Guorini..The only thing that kept my family some what peaceful was the word of God..
I missed her so much and still do..But I know where to put my thoughts when it comes to death..
Thank you for letting me share.
Edited by likeaneagleLink to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
Hmmmm. Jesus said it slept.
Who am I to believe?? You, or Him??
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
David, how do you handle the scriptures Mark posted in light of the seeming contradiction? Asking sincerely and not to be a sh1t. :)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.