I feel I should qualify my last post. I knew about much of the docrinal error of PFAL fairly soon after leaving TWI in 87ish. (Thanks mainly to friends that are smarter than I.)
Doctrinal error played a large part in hastening my exit.
But I didn't know about the plagerism and the depth of it, or the moral failure of VP personally. I knew about many others who were "top leadership," but I only had suspicians about VP. He was innocent until proven guilty in my eyes.
My opinion is that most people who hold to PFAL, or retain a high percentage of Wierwille-taught doctrine don't critically examine what he taught.
This opinion is based only on what I see printed here, and from the few people who believe that way that I know personally. Since I don't physically interact with most of youse guys, that's all I have to go on.
What I mean by critically examine, is to start from scratch. This doesn't necessarily mean to throw everything out, but it does mean to look at everything with a fresh set of eyes. To me, this means to not just re-read the verse, check the Young's concordance and say "Yup, makes sense to me,VP was right", but to question ALL of his assumptions, his definitions, his methods.
Is your view of a section of scripture based upon a definition of a Greek word that you have only seen in Wierwille's works? Are all the "keys" to interpreting the bible actually true? Can you spot all the doctrinal strawmen that Wierwille throws out in his effort to discredit opposing ideas? Have you looked at the opposing doctrinal positions that make sense?
None of this has anything to do with Wierwille's character or originality. As Raf said, Wierwille's works stand or fall on their own merits.
BUT...
...someone whose moral character is reprehensible, who lies and plagiarizes, etc, etc, etc...
...is not someone who we should take at their word.
Well said Oak, I wholeheartedly agree!
sudossuda, welcome to the cafe.
Like ex10, I knew of some of the erroneous doctrines taught by VPW/TWI and some of the adultry etc. but I didn't know the volume of wrong doctrines, plagerism, sex etc. until reading waydale/greasepostcafe and doing some of my own investigation for a few years. I now believe quite a lot of what we were taught and practiced in TWI was wrong, and I believe a lot started with Mr. Wierwille.
Yes, the Self's are in my fellowship. A neat couple that are now grandparents to a one-year baby boy, born around Christmas time 2004 to their son and daughter-in-law in the Memphis area. Another son and wife in Baton Rouge, and the oldest and his wife out of the military and now living in Kentucky, I think in the Louisville area. Both are doing quite well.
They were m&a about 2 years ago for associating with the people in our fellowship, and have been a part of our group ever since. I only met one couple and their kids in their twi fellowship, and can't remember their names, but think the wife was related to Mal and Jan George. Just met them briefly at a reception our fellowship hosted for their oldest son when he was in town visiting. Seemed like nice people to me from our brief encounter.
I can follow and appreciate your reasoning for your feelings and opinions about VPW. They are very similar to those of my husband, and we have had innumerable discussions about it.
Call me naive, shallow, whatever, but at this point in my life I do not care to delve deeper into the garbage in someone elses past, as I have spent too much time shoveling the garbage out of my own life. I'm tired of garbage. I want to move on to bigger and better things while keeping the many positive things from all aspects my past.
I agree all teachings from any source must be carefully considered and researched on your own, not just taken at face value. I have never been one to just accept what someone else said, nor have I ever shied away from questioning anything I had a conflict with. I do not accept all that Dr. Wierwille taught as "the God's honest truth" but he gives good backround and thought as a starting place to begin researching a topic on my own. I don't put anyone on a pedestal and deem them like a pope - one who speaks for God and everything they say is to be taken as divinely inspired. Only Jesus Christ was capable of that, and he has no close competition of which I am aware.
From my earlier post, you can see examples of things I vehemently disagree with Wierwille/twi on. And there were many others. I never had any respect for people who just accepted his teachings on blind faith. Seemed they had no real interest in learning, just filling themselves up with information they could regurgitate on cue.
I agree, it would be wonderful to hear Oakspear teach the Bible.
sudossuda, your husband has been bragging about you for so many years, I'm glad I finally have a chance to "meet" you at our little cyber-cafe. There's plenty of room for you here in the diner.
Set a spell. Take your shoes off. (Was that Jed Clampett who said that? I hear he bears a striking resemblance to Sudo. Or is that just a rumor? I hope so, otherwise, how do you live with the guy?)
Sudo and Jed Clampett . . . both love overalls and have a country demeanour, but thankfully no longer share the facial hair. Sudo had the beard and moustache thing going for a while, but I couldn't stand to kiss him (too scratchy on my tender face), so he shaved it off.
Sudo does loves to hamm up the Tennessee Hillbilly image - the kids just cringe (and so do I sometimes!). Don't think he can tap dance the way Jed did, either, but here he's a real hoot when it comes to hugging close to trees at the weenie roasts.
You mean he can't even tap dance? Good grief. You'd think if he was going to associate himself with Jed, at the very least he'd have his talent, and not just his twang. I've never actually witnessed the pole dance, having never attended a wienie roast, but his performance is lengendary.
Aw, suda, I would never call you naive or shallow.
Last year when I saw you, at my nephew's funeral, it was a terrible time in my life. You'll never know how much comfort you, Mr. Sudo, and the rest of your fellowship brought to my family. It made all the difference in my life, and I know I can speak for Mom and everybody else as well.
I chose the words naive and shallow as thought they were apropos to my lack of interest at this time of digging any deeper into someone elses garbage. I thought some might feel that unless I took the time to diligently read all about it myself, I would not be armed with sufficient information to have/make an informed opinion/decision. I visited Waydale in the past, and have perused GSC over the years, and have heard accounts from various sources. At present, I have read and heard as much I care to. I am aware of the major accusations being made, and feel they are based on solid reasoning, and that's all I need to know at this point.
I appreciate the graciousness welcome everyone has extended to me here at GSC. I have not felt offended in any way. Many have been thought provoking, and I appreciate that.
BTW, I spoke with some Wierwillites about your not believing the Bible.
...You're going to hell...
From the experts...
Eagle
Do you have to believe in hell to go there?
(Oh, and a belated welcome to sudossuda...I roomed with Sudo for 2 weenie roasts...how do you restrain yourself from killing him when he's that f---in' happy in the morning?)
Welcome to the Cafe Mrs. Sudo!!! I am sure you are aware of the saying behind every good King is a wonderful Queen. You are definately a testimony to the truth of that statement. And I do apologize for mistaking you for the infamous tree dancer....dentist extraordinare. If'n ya'll ever up Louaville way c'mon by. I'll let ya taste tha par juice that Mr Sudo thinks is mouthwash.
Happy Valentine's Day to all of you. Thanks for your sweet greetings.
Ex-10, glad we could be with your family at your nephew's funeral. I hated the circumstances, but it was wonderful having so many of your clan back in Memphis. I never see V & D, even though they live here, and they're such a hoot to be around. You're whole family is!
Oakspear, sounds like you are more of a night owl like me, rather than a morning person like Sudo. When he realized that sudden death was imminent for disturbing my peaceful slumber in the morning, he quickly learned a valuable lesson: Sometimes he wakes up grouchy, but usually he lets her sleep. (Maybe another trick would be to get him to gargle with Littlehawk's pear mouthwash in the morning - that would be a jolt to his morning!).
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Eagle
Oakspear,
YOU should be teaching Bible. THAT IS how we learn about it. I felt your post was fantastic.
Eagle
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dmiller
Heh heh heh!!! I agree! ;)
I've learned more by considering Oak's posts than I have from ---
Oh -- nemmermind. Let's just say he knows his stuff! :)
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ex10
I feel I should qualify my last post. I knew about much of the docrinal error of PFAL fairly soon after leaving TWI in 87ish. (Thanks mainly to friends that are smarter than I.)
Doctrinal error played a large part in hastening my exit.
But I didn't know about the plagerism and the depth of it, or the moral failure of VP personally. I knew about many others who were "top leadership," but I only had suspicians about VP. He was innocent until proven guilty in my eyes.
I now know about his personal, moral failures.
Just wanted to clear that up.
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Outin88.
Well said Oak, I wholeheartedly agree!
sudossuda, welcome to the cafe.
Like ex10, I knew of some of the erroneous doctrines taught by VPW/TWI and some of the adultry etc. but I didn't know the volume of wrong doctrines, plagerism, sex etc. until reading waydale/greasepostcafe and doing some of my own investigation for a few years. I now believe quite a lot of what we were taught and practiced in TWI was wrong, and I believe a lot started with Mr. Wierwille.
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Suda
act2,
Yes, the Self's are in my fellowship. A neat couple that are now grandparents to a one-year baby boy, born around Christmas time 2004 to their son and daughter-in-law in the Memphis area. Another son and wife in Baton Rouge, and the oldest and his wife out of the military and now living in Kentucky, I think in the Louisville area. Both are doing quite well.
They were m&a about 2 years ago for associating with the people in our fellowship, and have been a part of our group ever since. I only met one couple and their kids in their twi fellowship, and can't remember their names, but think the wife was related to Mal and Jan George. Just met them briefly at a reception our fellowship hosted for their oldest son when he was in town visiting. Seemed like nice people to me from our brief encounter.
Thanks for asking.
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Oakspear
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Suda
ex10, Raf, Oakspear, outin88,
I can follow and appreciate your reasoning for your feelings and opinions about VPW. They are very similar to those of my husband, and we have had innumerable discussions about it.
Call me naive, shallow, whatever, but at this point in my life I do not care to delve deeper into the garbage in someone elses past, as I have spent too much time shoveling the garbage out of my own life. I'm tired of garbage. I want to move on to bigger and better things while keeping the many positive things from all aspects my past.
I agree all teachings from any source must be carefully considered and researched on your own, not just taken at face value. I have never been one to just accept what someone else said, nor have I ever shied away from questioning anything I had a conflict with. I do not accept all that Dr. Wierwille taught as "the God's honest truth" but he gives good backround and thought as a starting place to begin researching a topic on my own. I don't put anyone on a pedestal and deem them like a pope - one who speaks for God and everything they say is to be taken as divinely inspired. Only Jesus Christ was capable of that, and he has no close competition of which I am aware.
From my earlier post, you can see examples of things I vehemently disagree with Wierwille/twi on. And there were many others. I never had any respect for people who just accepted his teachings on blind faith. Seemed they had no real interest in learning, just filling themselves up with information they could regurgitate on cue.
I agree, it would be wonderful to hear Oakspear teach the Bible.
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Oakspear
Well, I would have to start actually believing it first
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laleo
sudossuda, your husband has been bragging about you for so many years, I'm glad I finally have a chance to "meet" you at our little cyber-cafe. There's plenty of room for you here in the diner.
Set a spell. Take your shoes off. (Was that Jed Clampett who said that? I hear he bears a striking resemblance to Sudo. Or is that just a rumor? I hope so, otherwise, how do you live with the guy?)
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dmiller
Oak --- IMO, agnostics like you (forgive me if I'm calling you something you aren't),
seem to know more about the bible, than those of us who profess to believe it. ;)
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Suda
laleo,
Sudo and Jed Clampett . . . both love overalls and have a country demeanour, but thankfully no longer share the facial hair. Sudo had the beard and moustache thing going for a while, but I couldn't stand to kiss him (too scratchy on my tender face), so he shaved it off.
Sudo does loves to hamm up the Tennessee Hillbilly image - the kids just cringe (and so do I sometimes!). Don't think he can tap dance the way Jed did, either, but here he's a real hoot when it comes to hugging close to trees at the weenie roasts.
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laleo
You mean he can't even tap dance? Good grief. You'd think if he was going to associate himself with Jed, at the very least he'd have his talent, and not just his twang. I've never actually witnessed the pole dance, having never attended a wienie roast, but his performance is lengendary.
Again, welcome.
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dmiller
No -- it was Lester Flatt (of Flatt and Scruggs fame) who said that in
*The Ballad of Jed Clampett*, which became the theme song for
The Beverly Hillbillies.
Earl Scrugg's tune *Foggy Mountain Breakdown*
was used as the theme song for Bonnie and Clyde.
(Just an fyi -- in the interest of Bluegrass preservation). ;)
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laleo
dmiller, I stand corrected.
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ex10
Aw, suda, I would never call you naive or shallow.
Last year when I saw you, at my nephew's funeral, it was a terrible time in my life. You'll never know how much comfort you, Mr. Sudo, and the rest of your fellowship brought to my family. It made all the difference in my life, and I know I can speak for Mom and everybody else as well.
Your kindness is very much appreciated.
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rascal
Suda, Your spouse`s dancing ability IS legendary.....lol.....as is his sense of humor and gentle kindness.
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Eagle
Oakspear,
You're right, believing the subject you're teachng is a prerequisite to teaching it. You must BELIEVE IT.
BTW, I spoke with some Wierwillites about your not believing the Bible.
...You're going to hell...
From the experts...
Eagle
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Suda
ex10,
I chose the words naive and shallow as thought they were apropos to my lack of interest at this time of digging any deeper into someone elses garbage. I thought some might feel that unless I took the time to diligently read all about it myself, I would not be armed with sufficient information to have/make an informed opinion/decision. I visited Waydale in the past, and have perused GSC over the years, and have heard accounts from various sources. At present, I have read and heard as much I care to. I am aware of the major accusations being made, and feel they are based on solid reasoning, and that's all I need to know at this point.
I appreciate the graciousness welcome everyone has extended to me here at GSC. I have not felt offended in any way. Many have been thought provoking, and I appreciate that.
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excathedra
dera sudossuda, i'm so very very sorry and heartbroken about what happened to you in college many hugs
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Oakspear
Do you have to believe in hell to go there?
(Oh, and a belated welcome to sudossuda...I roomed with Sudo for 2 weenie roasts...how do you restrain yourself from killing him when he's that f---in' happy in the morning?)
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Littlehawk
Welcome to the Cafe Mrs. Sudo!!! I am sure you are aware of the saying behind every good King is a wonderful Queen. You are definately a testimony to the truth of that statement. And I do apologize for mistaking you for the infamous tree dancer....dentist extraordinare. If'n ya'll ever up Louaville way c'mon by. I'll let ya taste tha par juice that Mr Sudo thinks is mouthwash.
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Suda
Ex10, Oakspear, and Little Hawk,
Happy Valentine's Day to all of you. Thanks for your sweet greetings.
Ex-10, glad we could be with your family at your nephew's funeral. I hated the circumstances, but it was wonderful having so many of your clan back in Memphis. I never see V & D, even though they live here, and they're such a hoot to be around. You're whole family is!
Oakspear, sounds like you are more of a night owl like me, rather than a morning person like Sudo. When he realized that sudden death was imminent for disturbing my peaceful slumber in the morning, he quickly learned a valuable lesson: Sometimes he wakes up grouchy, but usually he lets her sleep. (Maybe another trick would be to get him to gargle with Littlehawk's pear mouthwash in the morning - that would be a jolt to his morning!).
Suda
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Eagle
Oakspear:
You DON'T believe in hell? You can't go there, then.
We just can't take you anywhere...
Eagle!
:)
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