He should address the fact he will probably live but the cancer will waste the function .
I think that is what really is bothering him . I think that is what he should write about. <_<
cancer is not a gift from God, I do not believe that but I do know lingering long standing illness happened to Gods people and many were not "healed" imediately even with the apostles praying for them night and day.
God can and will save us...either from our infirmities or through our infirmities.
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: -- Col 1:24
To me it sounds like very typical religious nonsense.
The Bible makes all sorts of promises. Prosperity, health, joy, peace, - all of that sort of stuff - but (to me anyway) is quite often found wanting in the "follow though" department - i.e. The miracles DON'T happen.
So what's a good Christian to do? Well, they could toss the whole theology as mindless superstition (somebody I know has done just that), or they could do like the good reverend here, and cook up a whole lot of spin doctored theology to explain away the obvious contraditions.
I don't find it that remarkable that someone so dedicated to an idea is willing to go to ridiculous lengths to keep from admitting the obvious, I see it everyday right here at GS, or at any church I've ever wandered into...
Folks, it sounds to me like a poor fellow struggeling with a life threatening situation and trying desperatly to place it within the parameters of that which he can understand and be at peace with.
It sounds like he is trying to glorify God and speak praise ... address the questions, fears and doubts of his parisioners that care for him.
Does it REALLY sound any more outrageous than what we were taught ?....ie cancer is a devil spirit that posesses our body....that you have left a door open somewhere spiritually to be attacked. You must simply *believe* and it will go away and all will be made well.
When our friends succumbed....did we blame the disease? Oh heck no we blamed the poor sufferer because they just couldn`t quite muster the believing necessary to defeat satan......it was always the sick persons fault.
Come on, fighting cancer is a scarey place to be....the guy seems to simply be trying to reconcile all of the suffering a pain with a God that he obviously loves and wants to trust....not offend people with vile herecies :(
Well, since this is not the 'doctrinal' forum, I'll hold most of what I'd say, but it comes pretty close to what Rascal says.
Christ, throughout the gospel accounts, repeatedly stated "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me."
The apostle Paul repeatedly spoke about enduring the sufferings of the flesh for the sake of the church. For example, he said in 2 Cor, For as we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too. If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; and if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which you experience when you patiently endure the same sufferings that we suffer." Again, in Colossians, Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
It becomes clear that his sufferings were made profitable by God for the good of the church. It is obvious that this pastor recognizes this. It is also evident that he recognizes the temporal nature of the flesh. Again, as Paul stated in 2 Cor, For this slight momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison...
And so his response (or at least the response he is trying to make) is one of thankfulness. For it is all for your sake, so that as grace extends to more and more people it may increase thanksgiving, to the glory of God. And, always and for everything giving thanks in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God the Father.
As George said, To me it sounds like very typical religious nonsense.
And, it is. Unless and until you look at things with some slightly different eyes than what are normally used.
BTW, I do have a parent who has endured years of pain and who, somehow, has managed to keep cheer, even as he knows that his only relief from the constant pain will be death. I have also had friends who have suffered with cancer and have managed to keep grace and peace, even when all efforts have failed and they have the "opportunity" to go through their purgatory on earth. So, yeah, I've seen it myself.
I always enjoy hearing your opinion about various things. I can really relate to how you feel and what you say about God and religious topics.
Rascal,
Of course the guy is scared. I understand that. I'm not without empathy or compassion. I just think the ideas he is espousing are offensive. I have read other articles of his and highly disagree with his theology. He believes in Calvinism and one of Calvinism' main tenets is that God chooses some to go to heaven and others to go to hell. It seems the non-elect are going to hell and they don't have any choice in the matter. What's the good news of the gospel to them?
Piper, in one of his articles about the tsunami that struck Southeast Asia stated that every great tragedy is an opportunity to repent. Repent of what? Piper seems to believe that God sends tragedy our way so we will turn back to Him (God). Just to flesh out this line of thinking: God causes something bad to happen in your life so you will turn to Him for help in getting through the very thing that He sent in the first place. Piper makes it sound like God has Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome. Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome is where someone, usually a parent causes a child to get sick and then the parent gets some kind of weird satisfaction out of taking care of the child and making them better. Doesn't anyone else think that kind of thinking is simply insane?
Piper has a large following and is revered by many. As a minister many think that what he says comes straight from the mouth of God and never question him. I just think that kind of blind allegiance is dangerous.
I don't dislike Piper. I don't know him. I do dislike and disagree with his theology.
I vehemenently disagree that God gives us diseases and sicknesses to teach us a lesson, or to bring us closer to Him.
In fact, I think that's sick.
Would you give your children, loved ones, pets, etc. ... dreadful painful diseases to bring them closer to you?
I believe if you closely read the article, you'll find out that the author does not disagree with you.
It will not do to say that God only uses our cancer but does not design it. What God permits, he permits for a reason. And that reason is his design.
If God foresees molecular developments becoming cancer, he can stop it or not. If he does not, he has a purpose. Since he is infinitely wise, it is right to call this purpose a design.
Satan is real and causes many pleasures and pains. But he is not ultimate.
There is a difference between "giving us" something and "allowing" something.
Searcher, I understand you feeling offended, really.....however I do not find his perspective any more offensive or wrong than twi`s understanding and doctrine on cancer.......
I repeat...what I personally see here is a man struggeling to praise God under the most trying of circumstances.
I see him struggeling to place his pain and suffering right or wrong into a context of that which he can understand and accept spiritually and achieve a measure of peace during the scariest time in his life.
Further more, if God is the loving heavenly father that we believe that he is....I imagine that it probably isn`t doctrinal issues he is critiquing at the moment ....but possibly the heart and trust of a man whom has tried desperatly to walk and glorify him during the most trying time in his life....
sorry man... lost my pop to metasticised (sp) PC back in 94, couldn't make it past the first "point"... may be my loss, but I've got no interest in this...
In find it offensive and in many ways IMO doctrinally unsound (it rains on the just and unjust alike)
But
What I see in the big picture is a man whose methodology for coping with his disease is to decide it is a "gift" from God rather than deal with the fact that even though he has led a Christian life, he still is just as sick as the sinner on the street
You know, I've had a nice, long post set up. And I just erased it.
Why? Why not?
I have heard a lot of people say "this is sick" -- "this is disgusting" etc.
I have seen literally none of you refute what the man has actually said. And when I mean refute, I mean to show where he has misinterpreted scripture and what the correct rendering of those scriptures are.
This thread has been moved down to the doctrine basement, so it's now OK to cite chapter and verse. I don't fully agree with the man and I've done so already.
The rest of you are in pile-on mode though. I feel this way. I feel that way. He's wrong. He's sick. Throw a kick, throw a jab, but you don't, in fact, show what is right instead.
If he's so sick and so wrong, break it down. Sentence by sentence...What did the man say that is wrong. How is it wrong. Prove that it's wrong. And show what's right.
(and the miraculous part about all this is that I, as a dyed in the wool Catholic, am defending a Baptist...whom I don't even 100% agree with...but you all are being plain wrong-headed about this stuff)
Oldies, I am glad you posted that link, but that study doesn't totally impact what the man is talking about. It appears to me that you're trying to bottle him up in a PFAL lesson, when that's not even what he's talking about.
Oh, well. Some lessons in Christianity are too tough to learn, I guess...
If he's so sick and so wrong, break it down. Sentence by sentence...What did the man say that is wrong. How is it wrong. Prove that it's wrong. And show what's right.
Mark, that's not my style in most cases ... you want Wordwolf. :)
The PFAL/STFI lesson is what I believe, at present; and it contradicts a key element of what this man apparently believes... i.e. God's sovereignty.
Therefore, I thought that citing the teaching from STFI is best to show what I believe.
They teach the topic better than me.
If you feel strongly that God allows sickness and pain and it is a gift from Him, go ahead and make your arguments.
It seems to me that what the man is saying is essentially that people with cancer can use it to "higher" purposes and if they don't, they waste it. I'm not religious and I don't agree with him on the specifics, but it is true that many people have suffered afflictions and found fulfilment and purpose through greater service to their God and their fellow humans than they might otherwise have found, had it not been for their afflictions.
Mark, that's not my style in most cases ... you want Wordwolf. :)
The PFAL/STFI lesson is what I believe, at present; and it contradicts a key element of what this man apparently believes... i.e. God's sovereignty.
Therefore, I thought that citing the teaching from STFI is best to show what I believe.
They teach the topic better than me.
If you feel strongly that God allows sickness and pain and it is a gift from Him, go ahead and make your arguments.
I already stated my position in this post, earlier in the thread.
I do not 100% agree with Piper, the author of the article. However, I do believe that he comes close to recognizing the truth (even though he doesn't fully capture it). I see him as skirting around the issue.
On the other hand, what I am stipulating is that Christ called all of us to take up our cross and follow him. Whatever that cross consists of. And, according to the scriptures I cited above, your endurance has merit, regardless of what it is that you are enduring. What that particular cross is.
IMHO, he's trying to find the merit. I will agree that he is going around it the wrong way. But he is trying to resolve those very difficult verses in the Pauline epistles with his life.
BTW, (and this is a SEPARATE -- related but separate -- issue) what do you think about Hebrews 12:1-13? (If you'd like to read, click on the link) -- please don't given the ultradispensationalist brush-off to those verses, either.
I am sort-of curious. The subject of suffering (of whatever variety) and endurance, along with their clearly Biblically indicated merits is something that I believe TWI, along with several, but not all, parts of Protestantism miss altogether.
Mark, I'm sure you're not referring to my post... but can't people just have an opinion?
Tom, I'm not at all. I also don't have issue with what George said. I just hate seeing people condemn something out of rote -- without honestly examining the issue. I think this issue is one of the most insiduous ones that folks get from the theology of TWI.
As far as my personal thought processes go... IF anything I'm doing or encounter sounds remotely like "the theology of TWI" I immediately question it... and more often than not, discard it...
As far as my personal thought processes go... IF anything I'm doing or encounter sounds remotely like "the theology of TWI" I immediately question it... and more often than not, discard it...
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pond
I didnt read it all just bits and pieces.
I didnt like the sound of it.
He should address the fact he will probably live but the cancer will waste the function .
I think that is what really is bothering him . I think that is what he should write about. <_<
cancer is not a gift from God, I do not believe that but I do know lingering long standing illness happened to Gods people and many were not "healed" imediately even with the apostles praying for them night and day.
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markomalley
God can and will save us...either from our infirmities or through our infirmities.
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: -- Col 1:24
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1searcher
Mark,
Would you please expand on your reply?
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dmiller
What a buncha ************ (sorry -- I got carried away there).
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George Aar
To me it sounds like very typical religious nonsense.
The Bible makes all sorts of promises. Prosperity, health, joy, peace, - all of that sort of stuff - but (to me anyway) is quite often found wanting in the "follow though" department - i.e. The miracles DON'T happen.
So what's a good Christian to do? Well, they could toss the whole theology as mindless superstition (somebody I know has done just that), or they could do like the good reverend here, and cook up a whole lot of spin doctored theology to explain away the obvious contraditions.
I don't find it that remarkable that someone so dedicated to an idea is willing to go to ridiculous lengths to keep from admitting the obvious, I see it everyday right here at GS, or at any church I've ever wandered into...
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rascal
Folks, it sounds to me like a poor fellow struggeling with a life threatening situation and trying desperatly to place it within the parameters of that which he can understand and be at peace with.
It sounds like he is trying to glorify God and speak praise ... address the questions, fears and doubts of his parisioners that care for him.
Does it REALLY sound any more outrageous than what we were taught ?....ie cancer is a devil spirit that posesses our body....that you have left a door open somewhere spiritually to be attacked. You must simply *believe* and it will go away and all will be made well.
When our friends succumbed....did we blame the disease? Oh heck no we blamed the poor sufferer because they just couldn`t quite muster the believing necessary to defeat satan......it was always the sick persons fault.
Come on, fighting cancer is a scarey place to be....the guy seems to simply be trying to reconcile all of the suffering a pain with a God that he obviously loves and wants to trust....not offend people with vile herecies :(
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ex70sHouston
Dod gonit Rasal you took the works right out of my mouth.
It does sound like he is scared and trying to put a good responce to it.
My wife came out of cancer praising God and uses it as motivation for others.
Me I remember the fear, pain, costs, and waiting.
If you or a family member goes thru cancer you know about waiting.
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markomalley
Well, since this is not the 'doctrinal' forum, I'll hold most of what I'd say, but it comes pretty close to what Rascal says.
Christ, throughout the gospel accounts, repeatedly stated "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me."
The apostle Paul repeatedly spoke about enduring the sufferings of the flesh for the sake of the church. For example, he said in 2 Cor, For as we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too. If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; and if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which you experience when you patiently endure the same sufferings that we suffer." Again, in Colossians, Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
It becomes clear that his sufferings were made profitable by God for the good of the church. It is obvious that this pastor recognizes this. It is also evident that he recognizes the temporal nature of the flesh. Again, as Paul stated in 2 Cor, For this slight momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison...
And so his response (or at least the response he is trying to make) is one of thankfulness. For it is all for your sake, so that as grace extends to more and more people it may increase thanksgiving, to the glory of God. And, always and for everything giving thanks in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God the Father.
As George said, To me it sounds like very typical religious nonsense.
And, it is. Unless and until you look at things with some slightly different eyes than what are normally used.
BTW, I do have a parent who has endured years of pain and who, somehow, has managed to keep cheer, even as he knows that his only relief from the constant pain will be death. I have also had friends who have suffered with cancer and have managed to keep grace and peace, even when all efforts have failed and they have the "opportunity" to go through their purgatory on earth. So, yeah, I've seen it myself.
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1searcher
George,
I always enjoy hearing your opinion about various things. I can really relate to how you feel and what you say about God and religious topics.
Rascal,
Of course the guy is scared. I understand that. I'm not without empathy or compassion. I just think the ideas he is espousing are offensive. I have read other articles of his and highly disagree with his theology. He believes in Calvinism and one of Calvinism' main tenets is that God chooses some to go to heaven and others to go to hell. It seems the non-elect are going to hell and they don't have any choice in the matter. What's the good news of the gospel to them?
Piper, in one of his articles about the tsunami that struck Southeast Asia stated that every great tragedy is an opportunity to repent. Repent of what? Piper seems to believe that God sends tragedy our way so we will turn back to Him (God). Just to flesh out this line of thinking: God causes something bad to happen in your life so you will turn to Him for help in getting through the very thing that He sent in the first place. Piper makes it sound like God has Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome. Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome is where someone, usually a parent causes a child to get sick and then the parent gets some kind of weird satisfaction out of taking care of the child and making them better. Doesn't anyone else think that kind of thinking is simply insane?
Piper has a large following and is revered by many. As a minister many think that what he says comes straight from the mouth of God and never question him. I just think that kind of blind allegiance is dangerous.
I don't dislike Piper. I don't know him. I do dislike and disagree with his theology.
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oldiesman
I vehemenently disagree that God gives us diseases and sicknesses to teach us a lesson, or to bring us closer to Him.
In fact, I think that's sick.
Would you give your children, loved ones, pets, etc. ... dreadful painful diseases to bring them closer to you?
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markomalley
I believe if you closely read the article, you'll find out that the author does not disagree with you.
There is a difference between "giving us" something and "allowing" something.
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rascal
Searcher, I understand you feeling offended, really.....however I do not find his perspective any more offensive or wrong than twi`s understanding and doctrine on cancer.......
I repeat...what I personally see here is a man struggeling to praise God under the most trying of circumstances.
I see him struggeling to place his pain and suffering right or wrong into a context of that which he can understand and accept spiritually and achieve a measure of peace during the scariest time in his life.
Further more, if God is the loving heavenly father that we believe that he is....I imagine that it probably isn`t doctrinal issues he is critiquing at the moment ....but possibly the heart and trust of a man whom has tried desperatly to walk and glorify him during the most trying time in his life....
Just my pov is all.
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oldiesman
Does God permit evil?
Here's an article from STFI which is the best article I've read on the net, on this topic.
Does God Permit Evil?
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Tom Strange
sorry man... lost my pop to metasticised (sp) PC back in 94, couldn't make it past the first "point"... may be my loss, but I've got no interest in this...
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templelady
In find it offensive and in many ways IMO doctrinally unsound (it rains on the just and unjust alike)
But
What I see in the big picture is a man whose methodology for coping with his disease is to decide it is a "gift" from God rather than deal with the fact that even though he has led a Christian life, he still is just as sick as the sinner on the street
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oldiesman
That's one reason why his viewpoint is so sick.
Would you bestow upon a loved one, child, your pet ... a crippling and painful disease?
IF I were God ... that believe would make me weep.
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markomalley
You know, I've had a nice, long post set up. And I just erased it.
Why? Why not?
I have heard a lot of people say "this is sick" -- "this is disgusting" etc.
I have seen literally none of you refute what the man has actually said. And when I mean refute, I mean to show where he has misinterpreted scripture and what the correct rendering of those scriptures are.
This thread has been moved down to the doctrine basement, so it's now OK to cite chapter and verse. I don't fully agree with the man and I've done so already.
The rest of you are in pile-on mode though. I feel this way. I feel that way. He's wrong. He's sick. Throw a kick, throw a jab, but you don't, in fact, show what is right instead.
If he's so sick and so wrong, break it down. Sentence by sentence...What did the man say that is wrong. How is it wrong. Prove that it's wrong. And show what's right.
(and the miraculous part about all this is that I, as a dyed in the wool Catholic, am defending a Baptist...whom I don't even 100% agree with...but you all are being plain wrong-headed about this stuff)
Oldies, I am glad you posted that link, but that study doesn't totally impact what the man is talking about. It appears to me that you're trying to bottle him up in a PFAL lesson, when that's not even what he's talking about.
Oh, well. Some lessons in Christianity are too tough to learn, I guess...
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oldiesman
Mark, that's not my style in most cases ... you want Wordwolf. :)
The PFAL/STFI lesson is what I believe, at present; and it contradicts a key element of what this man apparently believes... i.e. God's sovereignty.
Therefore, I thought that citing the teaching from STFI is best to show what I believe.
They teach the topic better than me.
If you feel strongly that God allows sickness and pain and it is a gift from Him, go ahead and make your arguments.
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LG
It seems to me that what the man is saying is essentially that people with cancer can use it to "higher" purposes and if they don't, they waste it. I'm not religious and I don't agree with him on the specifics, but it is true that many people have suffered afflictions and found fulfilment and purpose through greater service to their God and their fellow humans than they might otherwise have found, had it not been for their afflictions.
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oldiesman
"It's the stones in the brooke that make it sing"
Golly, where have I heard that before?
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Tom Strange
Mark, I'm sure you're not referring to my post... but can't people just have an opinion?
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markomalley
I already stated my position in this post, earlier in the thread.
I do not 100% agree with Piper, the author of the article. However, I do believe that he comes close to recognizing the truth (even though he doesn't fully capture it). I see him as skirting around the issue.
On the other hand, what I am stipulating is that Christ called all of us to take up our cross and follow him. Whatever that cross consists of. And, according to the scriptures I cited above, your endurance has merit, regardless of what it is that you are enduring. What that particular cross is.
IMHO, he's trying to find the merit. I will agree that he is going around it the wrong way. But he is trying to resolve those very difficult verses in the Pauline epistles with his life.
BTW, (and this is a SEPARATE -- related but separate -- issue) what do you think about Hebrews 12:1-13? (If you'd like to read, click on the link) -- please don't given the ultradispensationalist brush-off to those verses, either.
I am sort-of curious. The subject of suffering (of whatever variety) and endurance, along with their clearly Biblically indicated merits is something that I believe TWI, along with several, but not all, parts of Protestantism miss altogether.
Tom, I'm not at all. I also don't have issue with what George said. I just hate seeing people condemn something out of rote -- without honestly examining the issue. I think this issue is one of the most insiduous ones that folks get from the theology of TWI.
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Tom Strange
As far as my personal thought processes go... IF anything I'm doing or encounter sounds remotely like "the theology of TWI" I immediately question it... and more often than not, discard it...
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markomalley
Nowadays, me too!
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