Well, I can't speak for anybody else, but I feel perfectly free to speak my un-PC views on both theology and politics around here. I know I p!ss a few people off, but they'll get over it (or they can just hit the ignore button on me, they're choice).
Having said that, most people, although they don't agree with my POV, are pretty tolerant. Either questions are asked, POVs ignored, or whatever. Of course there are "the usual suspects" who love to chime in with a slam here or a slash there, but it honestly isn't too bad. I also post over on FR and the evangelicals there make careers out of Catholic-bashing (a couple even -- seriously -- highly approve of Jack Chick tracts). So this place isn't too bad, all in all.
It was pointed out on another thread that Sometimes I as the "token LDS" poster don't get a level playing field either.
So I had to consider what constitutes a level playing field here at the cafe
Its not the mounds of opinion that make the playing field uneven, you just walk around those--its the withdrawing of posting different opinions that leaves the field uneven with the resulting potholes, caused by their absence, waiting to break the legs of the unwary
It was pointed out on another thread that Sometimes I as the "token LDS" poster don't get a level playing field either.
But in TWI there were no "tokens", everybody had to "speak the same thing". Your Mormonism, which is outside the GS "mainstream", is sometimes the object of attack, but there is absolutely nothing that stoips you from posting.
In TWI, there was no debate, there was no meaningful discussion, if you didn't believe what the top dogs said to believe: see ya!
Just a note of clarification, My point was /is this: Yes absolutely people post here for the most part freely, unedited. I have no complaint with Grease Spot Board at all. As you said everyone gets a fair shot at posting, it's after that, the majority /minority equation comes into play. This being a place that is generally not supportive of things TWI related . One would expect to be in a minority if you held an opinion that was pro TWI . I would however not expect the volume of negativity in response to a fact that is documentable.
For instance A post such as this "The grounds at the Way were well maintained." is a pretty well known fact it does not speak pro or con about the ways doctrine or leadership activities it is generally neutral. One would think generally the response would be yes they were, one might even expect that some would interject that they were nice because of slave labor that kept them that way especially if they were the ones that doing the work . However one would not expect a response unrelated like yeah they were but what about the rape and pillage what about the false prophet. Why a neutral fact has to be turned into a "gang up" as you put it is a mystery to me. Why can't it stand that the grounds were well maintained without having to have some unrelated subject on twi evil attached to it.
That said contrary to popular belief what people think of the way and all things related does not bother me one bit. Im not a part of their organization nor do I feel a need to endorse it. I examine things from an is it true or is it not perspective. Who or where it came from is not of importance to me. While the unbalanced majority /minority opinion on the way at times is frustrating to deal with in terms of posts to answer. It is expected and often justly earned. That there is a majority bias is not a issue for me. What is...... is when someone tries to tell me it is non existent .
However one would not expect a response unrelated like yeah they were but what about the rape and pillage what about the false prophet. Why a neutral fact has to be turned into a "gang up" as you put it is a mystery to me. Why can't it stand that the grounds were well maintained without having to have some unrelated subject on twi evil attached to it.
My northern friend (see, you're both northern and southern at the same time)... it's because people are people... and at different levels of awareness/withdrawal in their lives... some can't seperate one from the other yet... but you knew that, doesn't mean you can't be bothered by it though, but you know it's gonna probably be there... me? It doesn't really bother me too much unless it's personal between two posters... that's when I'd prefer they take it 'outside'...
Just as we have freedom of expression, we have the freedom to work out our differences as well. If we care to, or not.
Heck, just because I have a different opinion, belief system, movie preference, color of drapes, doesn't mean I can't enjoy the conversation, and appreciate what others have to say.
And sometimes I just plain enjoy being disagreeable.
Grease Spot is a messy, sometimes rude and uncouth forum that sometimes seems like a bar room brawl in progress or maybe a grade school playground spat.
I'll take it any day over the enforced "likemindedness" of TWI.
Fine, but you are comparing apples with oranges.
TWI was/is a group that holds forth the accuracy of God's Word (for the most part ). That is the basic belief. If you don't like it, or couldn't agree with that, you were/are free to leave.
The Greasespot Cafe forum is a place for freedom of expression. If you don't like that or don't agree with that, leave.
Just a note of clarification, My point was /is this: Yes absolutely people post here for the most part freely, unedited. I have no complaint with Grease Spot Board at all.
[if that were true, there would BE no bitching and moaning.
*reads down the post*
Actually, seems your issue IS with how the GSC is managed.]
As you said everyone gets a fair shot at posting, it's after that, the majority /minority equation comes into play.
[Welcome to the internet!
New in town?]
This being a place that is generally not supportive of things TWI related.
[it's in the "mission statement." You should have read that before you
started posting here.]
One would expect to be in a minority if you held an opinion that was pro TWI.
Actually, people are welcome to HOLD any opinion they wish.
The minority factor becomes an issue when POSTING any opinion.]
I would however not expect the volume of negativity in response to a fact that is documentable.
[if that's what you're getting, then, people disagree on either
-the phrasing
-the "documentability"
-whether the statement is FACTUAL or not]
For instance A post such as this "The grounds at the Way were well maintained." is a pretty well known fact it does not speak pro or con about the ways doctrine or leadership activities it is generally neutral. One would think generally the response would be yes they were, one might even expect that some would interject that they were nice because of slave labor that kept them that way especially if they were the ones that doing the work.
[Few, if any, would disagree with you on that. (I'd say "all", but I allow
for not speaking for EVERYONE.]
However one would not expect a response unrelated like yeah they were but what about the rape and pillage what about the false prophet.
[That would be an unusual response.
It also lacks an example, being a hypothetical-that is, make-believe-"example."
It is useful for illustrating an opinion or position, but that in no way
makes it representative of the truth.
Now, if you have a link to a post where THIS VERY THING happened
(without having to contort events to change them to resemble this),
that would be worth discussing.]
Why a neutral fact has to be turned into a "gang up" as you put it is a mystery to me. Why can't it stand that the grounds were well maintained without having to have some unrelated subject on twi evil attached to it.
[Please cite where this ACTUALLY HAPPENED,
as opposed to "I say this is similar to what happened.
This is called "supporting your claims."
Thank you.]
That said contrary to popular belief what people think of the way and all things related does not bother me one bit.
[*reviews his posts*
I wouldn't go with that story if I were you, but, hey, feel free to make
whatever claims you wish.]
Im not a part of their organization nor do I feel a need to endorse it. I examine things from an is it true or is it not perspective. Who or where it came from is not of importance to me.
[unless it "came" from vpw-then it must be fought for fiercely.
It strikes me as odd that you're reluctant to admit this.
Frankly, I'd respect you more if you could avoid artifice in this,
and just say "this is my position, period. All my posts will reflect this."
Despite claims otherwise, do you really think most posters would
agree with your appraisal of your own posts, or do you think
they'd consider it non-representative of them?]
While the unbalanced majority /minority opinion
[All things where the population is not 50/50 are "unbalanced".
To make a point of saying it makes it look like you're trying to
pass judgement on the majority. To do that is not to post in a
friendly/civil manner. Up to you, but I prefer not to post that way,
even when I'm outnumbered incredibly.]
on the way at times is frustrating to deal with in terms of posts to answer.
[if I felt it was my responsibility to answer a lot of posts,
I'd feel frustration, too. Unless I was promulgating a doctrine
(like a new pfal or something), I would have little need for that, and could
survive with people disagreeing with me.]
It is expected and often justly earned. That there is a majority bias is not a issue for me. What is...... is when someone tries to tell me it is non existent .
[That there is a stated purpose to the GSC is in the public domain.
That there is a majority on the GSC concerning vpw, twi and pfal is
obvious to all but the thickest posters.
That posters are free to express their opinions-even though they are
minorities- is obvious as well, complaints to the contrary.
The exceptions are for blatant flames, advertisements/spam,
and violations of privacy.
Running the risk of posting an unpopular opinion is a risk every poster
takes on every messageboard all over the internet.
Even if you were the sole proprietor of a board, you would run that risk.
And if someone doesn't understand something along those lines,
it is not your responsibility to correct them by throwing a tantrum or
Grease Spot is a messy, sometimes rude and uncouth forum that sometimes seems like a bar room
brawl in progress or maybe a grade school playground spat.
I'll take it any day over the enforced "likemindedness" of TWI.
Oldiesman replied
Fine, but you are comparing apples with oranges.
TWI was/is a group that holds forth the accuracy of God's Word (for the most part ). That is the basic belief. If you don't like it, or couldn't agree with that, you were/are free to leave.
The Greasespot Cafe forum is a place for freedom of expression. If you don't like that or don't agree with that, leave.
And YOU'RE forgetting the things ALL groups should have in common.
twi was supposedly a group that held for the accuracy of God's Word.
(This was the stated goal, and most of us agree it was hardly the main
purpose as the Powers-That-Be saw it.)
IF there is a supposed search for excellence and truth,
there is SUPPOSED to be a dialogue process, as all people
(or most) are involved in an exchange of ideas as people seek to
make what was good, better.
(Many of us hit a brick wall when we tried to dialogue on those processes,
MANY OF US.)
Many people HOLDING THE STATED BELIEF OF TWI were MUZZLED in
discussion. They were not ALLOWED to attempt to make improvements.
So, it wasn't a matter of "if you don't beliefe the core tenet, leave".
It was a matter of "if you don't accept EVERYTHING without question,
leave-
but know that if you do, your family is under a death sentence because
God will turn His back on you and the devil will send his hit-squads to
wipe them out, starting with your children."
No, it's not an exaggeration, some were asked OUTRIGHT
"Which of your children do you want to die because you're leaving?"
So, you're misrepresenting life in twi at the moment.
How bizarre.
====
Further,
you're misrepresenting the GSC.
This is a board that allows considerable latitude for freedom of
expression,
whose stated purpose-it HAS a stated purpose-
is to present the OTHER SIDE of the story-
the information twi ruthlessly suppressed and continues to attempt.
I think it would be pretty hilarious if I walked in, asserted one of the pro-Catholic positions I've taken with scriptural backup (see especially the doctrinal forum), and see how long I lasted before being given the bum's rush.
Col 1:24 anybody?
Any bets on how long it'd be until I was thrown out on my fat a$$?
But in TWI there were no "tokens", everybody had to "speak the same thing". Your Mormonism, which is outside the GS "mainstream", is sometimes the object of attack, but there is absolutely nothing that stops you from posting.
My point exactly :)
That there is a majority bias is not a issue for me. What is...... is when someone tries to tell me it is non existent .
WD no one has ever said that there wasn't a majority bias here that is anti TWI. The issue was that because of that bias , you, and others who in some measure or other support TWI, were being deliberately targeted in some sort of "flame war", for lack of a better phrase. Realistically, if you post pro sentiments on a site that is basically anti , on whatever subject or site, you can not justifiably, IMO, claim surprise or indignation when the antis respond with vehemence
Im not a part of their organization nor do I feel a need to endorse it. I examine things from an is it true or is it not perspective. Who or where it came from is not of importance to me.
[unless it "came" from vpw-then it must be fought for fiercely.
It strikes me as odd that you're reluctant to admit this.
Frankly, I'd respect you more if you could avoid artifice in this,
and just say "this is my position, period. All my posts will reflect this."
Despite claims otherwise, do you really think most posters would
agree with your appraisal of your own posts, or do you think
they'd consider it non-representative of them?]
You are confused again WW I said unless it is truth then it must be fought for. Big difference!
It strikes me as odd that you are too thick to read what I have written a gazillion times and that you insist on telling me what I believe. You know this how? Most people are reluctant to admit things that are not true. And frankly I am not missing any sleep over whether you respect me or not.
WD no one has ever said that there wasn't a majority bias here that is anti TWI. The issue was that because of that bias , you, and others who in some measure or other support TWI, were being deliberately targeted in some sort of "flame war", for lack of a better phrase. Realistically, if you post pro sentiments on a site that is basically anti , on whatever subject or site, you can not justifiably, IMO, claim surprise or indignation when the antis respond with vehemence
Never said I was surprised I said several times I expected it. The issue was that some seem to think this bias will just go away and your sentiments will be accepted if you just smile and post nice somehow the field just levels out. That's like saying Ted Kennedy will agree with George Bush if he just smiles and speaks nicely.. That is just BS..
Not to minimize anybody's feeling or opinions or whatever.......
But as an elder poster here, I feel like I can say something.
I've had many "stupid attacks" since posting here. (Just ask anybody who's been around since WD.)
My experience has been that people here are pretty quick to forgive each other's foibles, and just move on.
Most times, we just misunderstand each other, cause it's the nature of the beast. We have to write our thoughts and feelings, and some of us are not as expressive in words, as others.
I know the times I've felt "persecuted" (not saying that you do, I'm talking myself only) it's really easy to say I'm sorry for being such a numb butt. I misunderstood you, you don't get me, so let's just get over ourselves, shall we?
And it just about always works. Conflict is what makes the world go round. It's just when we let it escalate that the problems ensue.
Seeing as how most of us are refugees from a cult, maybe we should cut each other a little slack.
I so apologize for being preachy. I can't stand the "why can't we just all get along crowd," but you know, there is a way to appreciate each other here, foibles, stupid attacks, warts, and all.
Don't get stuck in stuff that don't matter. Shoot me, please and shut me up. :unsure:
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markomalley
Oak, what a concept! Freedom of speech.
Well, I can't speak for anybody else, but I feel perfectly free to speak my un-PC views on both theology and politics around here. I know I p!ss a few people off, but they'll get over it (or they can just hit the ignore button on me, they're choice).
Having said that, most people, although they don't agree with my POV, are pretty tolerant. Either questions are asked, POVs ignored, or whatever. Of course there are "the usual suspects" who love to chime in with a slam here or a slash there, but it honestly isn't too bad. I also post over on FR and the evangelicals there make careers out of Catholic-bashing (a couple even -- seriously -- highly approve of Jack Chick tracts). So this place isn't too bad, all in all.
So what comes next? Freedom of thought?
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templelady
It was pointed out on another thread that Sometimes I as the "token LDS" poster don't get a level playing field either.
So I had to consider what constitutes a level playing field here at the cafe
Its not the mounds of opinion that make the playing field uneven, you just walk around those--its the withdrawing of posting different opinions that leaves the field uneven with the resulting potholes, caused by their absence, waiting to break the legs of the unwary
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Patriot
Freedom of expression.......now, ladies & gentlemen, that is truly
PATRIOTIC!
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Oakspear
In TWI, there was no debate, there was no meaningful discussion, if you didn't believe what the top dogs said to believe: see ya!
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WordWolf
I'd also like to point out that this is a private messageboard.
Nobody has a Constitutional right to the GSC.
Nobody has a Constitutional right to POST on the GSC.
Nobody has a Constitutional right to be ACCEPTED on the GSC.
Don't like your treatment on the GSC?
LEAVE!
The internet is a huge, huge place.
You can find a board you like,
or you can make your OWN board.
In fact, I'd bet Paw would let you advertise it on a thread here
so those who WANT your board can find it.
Of course, you can't MAKE people post on your board,
either....
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WhiteDove
Hey Northern Neighbor
Just a note of clarification, My point was /is this: Yes absolutely people post here for the most part freely, unedited. I have no complaint with Grease Spot Board at all. As you said everyone gets a fair shot at posting, it's after that, the majority /minority equation comes into play. This being a place that is generally not supportive of things TWI related . One would expect to be in a minority if you held an opinion that was pro TWI . I would however not expect the volume of negativity in response to a fact that is documentable.
For instance A post such as this "The grounds at the Way were well maintained." is a pretty well known fact it does not speak pro or con about the ways doctrine or leadership activities it is generally neutral. One would think generally the response would be yes they were, one might even expect that some would interject that they were nice because of slave labor that kept them that way especially if they were the ones that doing the work . However one would not expect a response unrelated like yeah they were but what about the rape and pillage what about the false prophet. Why a neutral fact has to be turned into a "gang up" as you put it is a mystery to me. Why can't it stand that the grounds were well maintained without having to have some unrelated subject on twi evil attached to it.
That said contrary to popular belief what people think of the way and all things related does not bother me one bit. Im not a part of their organization nor do I feel a need to endorse it. I examine things from an is it true or is it not perspective. Who or where it came from is not of importance to me. While the unbalanced majority /minority opinion on the way at times is frustrating to deal with in terms of posts to answer. It is expected and often justly earned. That there is a majority bias is not a issue for me. What is...... is when someone tries to tell me it is non existent .
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Tom Strange
My northern friend (see, you're both northern and southern at the same time)... it's because people are people... and at different levels of awareness/withdrawal in their lives... some can't seperate one from the other yet... but you knew that, doesn't mean you can't be bothered by it though, but you know it's gonna probably be there... me? It doesn't really bother me too much unless it's personal between two posters... that's when I'd prefer they take it 'outside'...
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ex10
Just as we have freedom of expression, we have the freedom to work out our differences as well. If we care to, or not.
Heck, just because I have a different opinion, belief system, movie preference, color of drapes, doesn't mean I can't enjoy the conversation, and appreciate what others have to say.
And sometimes I just plain enjoy being disagreeable.
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oldiesman
Fine, but you are comparing apples with oranges.
TWI was/is a group that holds forth the accuracy of God's Word (for the most part
). That is the basic belief. If you don't like it, or couldn't agree with that, you were/are free to leave.
The Greasespot Cafe forum is a place for freedom of expression. If you don't like that or don't agree with that, leave.
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WordWolf
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WordWolf
Oakspear said
Oldiesman repliedAnd YOU'RE forgetting the things ALL groups should have in common.
twi was supposedly a group that held for the accuracy of God's Word.
(This was the stated goal, and most of us agree it was hardly the main
purpose as the Powers-That-Be saw it.)
IF there is a supposed search for excellence and truth,
there is SUPPOSED to be a dialogue process, as all people
(or most) are involved in an exchange of ideas as people seek to
make what was good, better.
(Many of us hit a brick wall when we tried to dialogue on those processes,
MANY OF US.)
Many people HOLDING THE STATED BELIEF OF TWI were MUZZLED in
discussion. They were not ALLOWED to attempt to make improvements.
So, it wasn't a matter of "if you don't beliefe the core tenet, leave".
It was a matter of "if you don't accept EVERYTHING without question,
leave-
but know that if you do, your family is under a death sentence because
God will turn His back on you and the devil will send his hit-squads to
wipe them out, starting with your children."
No, it's not an exaggeration, some were asked OUTRIGHT
"Which of your children do you want to die because you're leaving?"
So, you're misrepresenting life in twi at the moment.
How bizarre.
====
Further,
you're misrepresenting the GSC.
This is a board that allows considerable latitude for freedom of
expression,
whose stated purpose-it HAS a stated purpose-
is to present the OTHER SIDE of the story-
the information twi ruthlessly suppressed and continues to attempt.
It's not a "free-speech" forum.
You can find those online if you want.
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markomalley
WW
I think it would be pretty hilarious if I walked in, asserted one of the pro-Catholic positions I've taken with scriptural backup (see especially the doctrinal forum), and see how long I lasted before being given the bum's rush.
Col 1:24 anybody?
Any bets on how long it'd be until I was thrown out on my fat a$$?
Integrity of the Word...my heinie!
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oldiesman
The Greasespot Cafe forum is a freedom of speech, freedom of expression forum.
There are forums that do not allow contrary opinions to the stated purpose of the website.
Greasespot Cafe is not one of those.
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WordWolf
So, then, I ask you plainly:
Do you believe posters with contrary opinions are allowed to post
at the GSC?
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oldiesman
Of course.
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WordWolf
I agree with you.
Seems we meant 2 different things by "freedom of speech" forum.
BTW,
if that's what you think,
what are you doing on this thread? :)
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oldiesman
Posting my opinions.
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WordWolf
It wasn't a serious question. The ":)" was because I was being cheeky.
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ex10
Gosh what a great word! "Cheeky."
Glad I looked it up, WW. I thought maybe you were getting fresh with oldies. :blink:
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templelady
WD no one has ever said that there wasn't a majority bias here that is anti TWI. The issue was that because of that bias , you, and others who in some measure or other support TWI, were being deliberately targeted in some sort of "flame war", for lack of a better phrase. Realistically, if you post pro sentiments on a site that is basically anti , on whatever subject or site, you can not justifiably, IMO, claim surprise or indignation when the antis respond with vehemence
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Oakspear
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WhiteDove
Im not a part of their organization nor do I feel a need to endorse it. I examine things from an is it true or is it not perspective. Who or where it came from is not of importance to me.
[unless it "came" from vpw-then it must be fought for fiercely.
It strikes me as odd that you're reluctant to admit this.
Frankly, I'd respect you more if you could avoid artifice in this,
and just say "this is my position, period. All my posts will reflect this."
Despite claims otherwise, do you really think most posters would
agree with your appraisal of your own posts, or do you think
they'd consider it non-representative of them?]
You are confused again WW I said unless it is truth then it must be fought for. Big difference!
It strikes me as odd that you are too thick to read what I have written a gazillion times and that you insist on telling me what I believe. You know this how? Most people are reluctant to admit things that are not true. And frankly I am not missing any sleep over whether you respect me or not.
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WhiteDove
WD no one has ever said that there wasn't a majority bias here that is anti TWI. The issue was that because of that bias , you, and others who in some measure or other support TWI, were being deliberately targeted in some sort of "flame war", for lack of a better phrase. Realistically, if you post pro sentiments on a site that is basically anti , on whatever subject or site, you can not justifiably, IMO, claim surprise or indignation when the antis respond with vehemence
Never said I was surprised I said several times I expected it. The issue was that some seem to think this bias will just go away and your sentiments will be accepted if you just smile and post nice somehow the field just levels out. That's like saying Ted Kennedy will agree with George Bush if he just smiles and speaks nicely.. That is just BS..
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ex10
aw geeze.
Not to minimize anybody's feeling or opinions or whatever.......
But as an elder poster here, I feel like I can say something.
I've had many "stupid attacks" since posting here. (Just ask anybody who's been around since WD.)
My experience has been that people here are pretty quick to forgive each other's foibles, and just move on.
Most times, we just misunderstand each other, cause it's the nature of the beast. We have to write our thoughts and feelings, and some of us are not as expressive in words, as others.
I know the times I've felt "persecuted" (not saying that you do, I'm talking myself only) it's really easy to say I'm sorry for being such a numb butt. I misunderstood you, you don't get me, so let's just get over ourselves, shall we?
And it just about always works. Conflict is what makes the world go round. It's just when we let it escalate that the problems ensue.
Seeing as how most of us are refugees from a cult, maybe we should cut each other a little slack.
I so apologize for being preachy. I can't stand the "why can't we just all get along crowd," but you know, there is a way to appreciate each other here, foibles, stupid attacks, warts, and all.
Don't get stuck in stuff that don't matter. Shoot me, please and shut me up. :unsure:
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