See CK? You chose not to discuss Goey's post. You have yet to thank anyone for offering you advice about researching the Word - even though many here have suggested that you go to your own father to get this info.
What is your motivation? What are you trying to accomplish? What are you trying to provoke? Anger? Love? Rage? Tolerance?
It is very hard to take you seriously. I have even wondered if you are who you say you are. You can't prove that on a thread - but if you want to discuss something you should respond to the issues instead of looking to pick a fight.
See CK? You chose not to discuss Goey's post. You have yet to thank anyone for offering you advice about researching the Word - even though many here have suggested that you go to your own father to get this info.
What is your motivation? What are you trying to accomplish? What are you trying to provoke? Anger? Love? Rage? Tolerance?
It is very hard to take you seriously. I have even wondered if you are who you say you are. You can't prove that on a thread - but if you want to discuss something you should respond to the issues instead of looking to pick a fight.
IMHO....
I will never discuss what Goey says and or respond to anything else that he says.
However I am not sure what you are talking about with the me thanking people. I always in chat thank people for there opinions For example dmiller and Goey. Matter fact I just thanked Goey for his opinions last night. Though he was hostile. While putting this thread together I wanted to discuss I COR 13. I don't cause the fight, but I will defend what I think is right and if a fight is needed then that is what I will do.
I will never discuss what Goey says and or respond to anything else that he says.
Well that settles that.
Paul followed the same pattern of leadership as the verses that Goey posted. He very clearly spends quite a bit of time discussing the inappropriate and unloving behavior of the Corinthians. Without pointing out what was wrong he couldn't clearly direct them to what was right.
Paul makes no bones about saying who he thinks the people in the church should be wary of either, in other places. He names names. Also tells his protege Timothy to watch out for certain kinds of people. He tells us all to beware of wolves getting into the flock, posing as good guys.
Paul knew as well as anyone what it meant to be a bad guy, by the standards of his new faith. He judged himself least worthy of all on the one hand, and on the other clearly aspired to the higher vision and standards of his new faith.
"Love thinks no evil". It begs the question "what is evil?"
"Love thinks no evil". It begs the question "what is evil?"
I believe the verse before " Love thinketh no evil" Is the verse 4 it says Love Suffereth Long. The Evil in this verse has to do with thinking evil of someone. For example the pool boy went to the neighbors house while the wife was there, they don't even have a pool and he has been there all day long. What is the first thought that comes to mind.
As for the wolves getting in the Flock. The wolf is what we would call the antichrist. The antichrist will show us all good things and we will believe (At leat most of the world will)him. Now I know the next thing you are going to say "The wolf is VPW" but that is no correct. The wolf in this statement would have to be the same as the flock. The flock would not be able to tell the difference. Therefore the wolf is someone who everyone would trust to be right. VPW does not have that kind of following. But the Roman Catholic Church does or the Trinity Belief has enough followers to have there focus blurred by the antichrist.
Well this is the last time I will respond to what Goey says unless he can have a pleasent conversation without getting emotinal. My post are of the KJV text and the last time I checked they were the only souce of knowing god's word.
We are discussing I Cor 13 and you decided to bring in Isaiah. Why go into the old testament. When we are discussing a verse or verses in the new testament. There is something that seperates the two of them. Jesus Christ. My scripture is from the bible therefore calling my scripture evil is the same as calling the bible evil.
Don't tell me you just said that abuse would run rampant and unchecked. That happens in the Roman Catholic Church everyday. Who is persecuting them?? While the church just let it happen to kids of all ages from 10 to 15.
Goey I am not sure what lemonade you are drinking but I will explain one more time I use only verses from the KJV with help and teaching from VPW. So there why don't you go ahead and persecute me for saying that VPW helped me understand the word of God.
As for the wolves getting in the Flock. The wolf is what we would call the antichrist. The antichrist will show us all good things and we will believe (At leat most of the world will)
CK - Can you support from scripture that the "wolves(plural)" are the "antichrist (singular)?"
You are making the classic mistake of plugging your particular pet peeve in to scripture. THAT young man, is private interpretation and that is not what the man you want to support and think so highly of taught. Ask your dad.
Now, the antichrist might be a wolf - but not the only wolf. VPW was most probably a wolf - but not the only wolf. Read other verses in Peter to get the full meaning.
BTW - Goey was dead on regarding what the word "thinketh" in "thinketh no evil" means. Go back and read his post. Now how do I know this? I have studied that particular word. It refers to the laying to one's account - as in a savings account. Love does not lay evil to one's account.
Now - Jesus Christ loved perfectly - yet he called the Pharisees "vipers" and he said that they were just like their father "the father of lies." He called it as it was. This is not thinking evil. This is thinking. This is being aware. This is being a watchman.
If you want to play with the big dogs you can't pee like a puppy.
(Sorry - but this line is a favorite of mine and I use it all the time.)
Well I am glad I am young so thank you I guess. But you guys (almost everyone here at GS) are looking for every wrong. VPW cannot be at fault for everything. The wolf would lay around and wait for a pounce at a moments notice. There are no records of VPW doing that. The wolf to the antichrist may be wrong but my point was to show that everyone here will go ahead and pounce on that and turn it into VPW. While if VPW was the wolf and lets say for a moment the wolf was the antichrist then why is he (VPW) not here to be here during the return of Christ. I believe the text shows us that false prophets are going to grow more and more. So then why would VPW be wrong and everyone else be right because VPW was right and the false prophets are amoung us now.
The wolf to the antichrist may be wrong but my point was to show that everyone here will go ahead and pounce on that and turn it into VPW. While if VPW was the wolf and lets say for a moment the wolf was the antichrist then why is he (VPW) not here to be here during the return of Christ. I believe the text shows us that false prophets are going to grow more and more. So then why would VPW be wrong and everyone else be right because VPW was right and the false prophets are amoung us now.
First - there isn't one wolf.
Second - no one here says that VPW is the antichrist. I said he just Might be a wolf (one of many) And no one knows when the antichrist will come - because no one knows when Jesus Christ will come. You really don't understand the Return and the various stages of the "end times" do you? You're blending too many things that aren't meant to be blended.
Third - False prophets will increase - that's what that means - but it doesn't mean that they will live forever until the Apocalypse.
Fourth - VPW wasn't right (about a lot of things - but not wrong about everything)- the WORD of GOD is right.
BTW - false prophets have been around since the old testament. Jesus said that there would be false prophets and then so did Paul and Peter. VPW only read the scripture. You (or I or the unbeliever down the street) can repeat that same scripture and because the scripture is right, you'll sound right.
The wolf would lay around and wait for a pounce at a moments notice. There are no records of VPW doing that.
Oh but there are records of this very thing. First hand testamonials. What do you call it when a guy(VPW) calls a gal into his motorcoach for a pedicure and greets her in nothing but a towel?
The when she's done with the feet, he stands up and puts his you know what you know where and tells her to, "Finish the job!"
This isn't pouncing? This isn't abuse of power? This is the Love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation? I'll tell you - this is NOT GODLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There is a lot more to the Word of God than what you get in PFAL. And since he is dead - just how do you know what he taught? I'm sad to say that you really don't even have a firm grasp on what was taught, much less have an ability to apply what you were supposed to learn to get the Bible to open up for you.
The whole point of the matter is that you are supposed to be able to go to the Word and understand it for yourself. Not that you are to repeat everything you hear like a puppet. (And you really don't repeat it all that well.)
Well speaking of wolves, I wasn't referring specifically to VPW or anyone in particular CK. Here's the section in Acts I was thinking of. Following it, my scintillating comments:
27 For I have not shunned to declare to you all the counsel of God.
28 Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost has made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he has purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
32 And now, brothers, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
33 I have coveted no man’s silver, or gold, or apparel.
34 Yes, you yourselves know, that these hands have ministered to my necessities, and to them that were with me.
35 I have showed you all things, how that so laboring you ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
36 ¶ And when he had thus spoken, he kneeled down, and prayed with them all.
37 And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul’s neck, and kissed him,
38 Sorrowing most of all for the words which he spoke, that they should see his face no more. And they accompanied him to the ship.
Step into that record for a second and listen to what Paul's saying.
Now, gently, so I don't give Sirguessalot the impression we're getting weird here...I'm not interested in hammering on VPW or anyone in particular when I mention "wolves". What I meant was, it's an important function of the church, and what you'd probably consider the quality of "leadership", to watch out for, help and warn others in the church when you believe it's going to help. Paul did that. It's a good example of being honest with people here, in a caring way. Paul was living the love he taught about. He could have just said hey folks, it's been a blast. Thanks! I'll be passing the hat around, so if you've been blessed don't be stingy! But he didn't. He really cared about these people and so he left them with the best he had to offer them.
He reminds them of how honest he's been with them in other things too. He worked for a living, supported himself and others, and did so that he wouldn't be grifting off of them to do what he believed he was called to do. And so that he'd have to help others himself. Paul did what he says Jesus taught.
Not that many ministers do that, VPW included. Many feel they're called to do "the Lord's Work" and want everyone else to pay their way to do it. That's not honoring the God who made the call, IMO. I haven't always felt that way, but that's the way I feel today.
That's just one point, not to be harping on it, but it's a point worth considering when we talk about "wolves". Most of the religious world is in the business of building successful Christian businesses, AKA "churches". It's a personal peeve of mine. Has nothing to do with VPW, the Way, the Roman Catholic church, or anyone specifically. I feel the basic message of the LIFE of a minister is often lost in the pursuit of a ministerial career.
Big whoopdee doo. But - as an example - it's one of the things I do post on this board from time to time, if possibly to remind, "warn" people looking into churches like the Way, that we've got some simple clear examples of honest pastoriing and ministering in the bible to look at - certainly Jesus Christ Himself. Paul, many others. To me, that's a part of being loving. Doesn't mean you or anyone else has to or needs to go along with it. I put it out here, as I do in other ways and places, for consideration.
Though I speak with the tounges of men and of angels and have not (charity) [the love of god in the renewed mind]. I am become as a sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal.
The only way to get people to god is with a renewed mind and the love of god. At one point LCM had this love and I have hope he can find his way back. Without the love of god in the renewed mind you are as sharp as a razor when you talk about God. Dr Wierwille said "Without the love of god you are just a noice in a band" You will never make harmony with winning people to God. What I am saying is to win people to God not to the TWI, right now the TWI is corrupt. So what I have done is start a fellowship with the doctrines of VPW and the PFAL class. The plan is to read each verse day by day and give the meaning to the best of my ability
Yes LCM may of had this Love and he may have it today. I heard him speak many times but I never talk one on one to the man. And has for VPW I just hope he was not all show and no love because we all sin and make miss takes for I only talk to him for a few seconds just hi both ways at a rock.
But lets move to the word and forget LCM or VPW because they both are out of our control
I Cor 13:13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
Yes without a deep love for God and all others in a spiritual form we are just flesh which just is dust
I COR 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
And though I can speak or write word of prophecy which God telling me what to say word by word and even that God reveals things to me by word of knowledge and word of wisdom and I have build my believing to the point I could say to a mountain move to the sea and it would with a spiritual fruit know as love of God I am nothing
I COR 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
And though I give all my fleshly riches to feed the poor, even if I give my life as a stand for truth without charity it was a wasted of time
I COR 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
Though I walk the love of God with longsuffering, goodness, gentleness, temperance, Meekness, joy, peace, and faith,
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
I COR 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
The Love of God all ways works but receiving from above by way of the seed of Christ in us will stop in due time
I COR 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
We know in part for now
1 COR 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
For when Christ comes back for us that which is part will be whole
1 COR 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
When I was young in spirit I spoke as a child I understood as a child, I thought as a child but when I became to walk as a man spiritually I put away childish things (like doctrines of man and walk and learned by the spirit of Christ in me)
1 Cor 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
For now we see like looking at our self in a cloudily pond but soon we will see each other clear in true color and we will know as God knows us
1 COR 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
And now we have faith, hope, and charity all three a complete set but the best is the love of God
I could go on but this tread is only about this chapter
Now I am sorry if I wrote the same as a another have not read them all but love the love of God and wanted to join in
Well this is the last time I will respond to what Goey says unless he can have a pleasent conversation without getting emotinal. My post are of the KJV text and the last time I checked they were the only souce of knowing god's word.
I submit that VPW NEVER taught that the KJV was the ONLY source of knowing God's word. I don't where you checked, but it was never in anything VPW wrote or taught In fact that is the opposite of what VPW taught.
We are discussing I Cor 13 and you decided to bring in Isaiah. Why go into the old testament. When we are discussing a verse or verses in the new testament. There is something that seperates the two of them. Jesus Christ. My scripture is from the bible therefore calling my scripture evil is the same as calling the bible evil.
VPW himself went many times to the OT in order to add light to the NT. VPW did this extensively in PFAL and his other oher teachings. If you studied VPW's teachings then you should know that.
But, for the record, I did not call your "scripture" evil. I certainly did not call the Bible evil. These are absurd misrepresentation. I called your "doctrine" evil and that's a huge difference. Anyone can quote a scripture and then apply a meaning to it. The meaning you applied to 1 Cor 13, is not the meaning that Paul intended. Your interpretation is spurious and clearly contrary to what Paul teaches elsewhere. It is also contray to many, many other teachings in the Bible. Your doctrine of 1 Cor promotes ignorance and abuse. It is therefore "evil" as far as I am concerned.
Don't tell me you just said that abuse would run rampant and unchecked. That happens in the Roman Catholic Church everyday. Who is persecuting them?? While the church just let it happen to kids of all ages from 10 to 15.
Ok, I won't tell you that, becasue I did indeed say a lot more. However, the rest of this is what is known as a strawman argument or a maybe "red herring"( but not every good ones). This actually helps to show what happens when folks close their eyes to evil. But, to answer the question, many Catholics themselves have demanded that the abusers be removed from positions of leadership - and that the abusers be brought to justiice. Many abusers have been arrested and tried in court.
Your doctrine teaches that these folks should have close their eyes, and thus let the abuse(evil) continue. So your argument here here is inconsistant with your doctrine and makes no sense unless you are proposing, that like you, the Catholic people and and the RCC leaders should close their eyes and ignore the misdeeds. It was the closing of eyes, same as proposed in your doctrine, that allowed much it in the first place. So, which is it? -- Should they have close their eyes or not. Was the Church right when they closed their eyes, covering up the "evil" of the abusers. Or should they have taken action against it when they became aware of it? Were the families and victims wrong when they exposed the evil? Your doctrine says that it was.
Goey I am not sure what lemonade you are drinking but I will explain one more time I use only verses from the KJV with help and teaching from VPW. So there why don't you go ahead and persecute me for saying that VPW helped me understand the word of God.
It does not matter to me what version of the Bible someone quotes from. Anyone can quote from the Bible (King James or any other) and then foist an erroneous meaning upon it. This was something that VPW taught very clearly in PFAL. He called it "private interpretation". I thought you learned from VPW? It does not seem so. I am not persecuting you for saying that VPW helped you understand the word of God, he help me in that area too. Instead, I am challenging your interpretation of a section of scripture.
CK, the more I read your answers, the more I doubt that you learned much of anything from VPW or PFAL. You contradict the very teachings of VPW, the man you say you learned from - and the man you seem to want to be a martyr for. You don't seem to know anything about him - neither the good, nor the bad - nada.
While it is true that I don't believe that everything that VPW taught was correct, I do believe he did a pretty good job with his basic "keys to research". But you do not apply these keys at all. You don't even seem to know them. If you really learned from VPW it seems that you would at least know the basics of what VPW actually taught. You don't. Instead, It seems to me that you may never have opened a PFAL book.
In any case, you have offered little to support you interpretation of 1 Cor , except mispresentations of what I and others have said, errors concerning what VPW taught, and cries of fowl and persecution.
Todd, I suggest that your implication that we may be somehow "driving driving him deeper into whatever he is into", is misapplied/misdirected. IMO, he is already in about as deep as he can get.
No But I am quoting him to Dooj's statement about VPW.
CK
Would you care to elaborate?
Which statement are you refering to? I've made many.
What is your point?
CK - you may think that I want to mock you - I assure you, I do not. I really and truly want to see you get you thoughts on paper and see you make that leap to deep thought. So please explain yourself -I'll be patient.
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Raf
And no one said "what" was a slam.
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oldiesman
I like that.
In order to establish judgment and perspective, I believe both are necessary.
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doojable
See CK? You chose not to discuss Goey's post. You have yet to thank anyone for offering you advice about researching the Word - even though many here have suggested that you go to your own father to get this info.
What is your motivation? What are you trying to accomplish? What are you trying to provoke? Anger? Love? Rage? Tolerance?
It is very hard to take you seriously. I have even wondered if you are who you say you are. You can't prove that on a thread - but if you want to discuss something you should respond to the issues instead of looking to pick a fight.
IMHO....
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ckmkeon
I will never discuss what Goey says and or respond to anything else that he says.
However I am not sure what you are talking about with the me thanking people. I always in chat thank people for there opinions For example dmiller and Goey. Matter fact I just thanked Goey for his opinions last night. Though he was hostile. While putting this thread together I wanted to discuss I COR 13. I don't cause the fight, but I will defend what I think is right and if a fight is needed then that is what I will do.
CK
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socks
Well that settles that.
Paul followed the same pattern of leadership as the verses that Goey posted. He very clearly spends quite a bit of time discussing the inappropriate and unloving behavior of the Corinthians. Without pointing out what was wrong he couldn't clearly direct them to what was right.
Paul makes no bones about saying who he thinks the people in the church should be wary of either, in other places. He names names. Also tells his protege Timothy to watch out for certain kinds of people. He tells us all to beware of wolves getting into the flock, posing as good guys.
Paul knew as well as anyone what it meant to be a bad guy, by the standards of his new faith. He judged himself least worthy of all on the one hand, and on the other clearly aspired to the higher vision and standards of his new faith.
"Love thinks no evil". It begs the question "what is evil?"
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sirguessalot
nevermind...
not as easy to say as i thought, without coming across like a jerk
i just hope you guys can find better ways to dialogue with ck without just driving him deeper into whatever he is into
or losing your own peace by trying too hard to fix something about him
good luck
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ckmkeon
I believe the verse before " Love thinketh no evil" Is the verse 4 it says Love Suffereth Long. The Evil in this verse has to do with thinking evil of someone. For example the pool boy went to the neighbors house while the wife was there, they don't even have a pool and he has been there all day long. What is the first thought that comes to mind.
As for the wolves getting in the Flock. The wolf is what we would call the antichrist. The antichrist will show us all good things and we will believe (At leat most of the world will)him. Now I know the next thing you are going to say "The wolf is VPW" but that is no correct. The wolf in this statement would have to be the same as the flock. The flock would not be able to tell the difference. Therefore the wolf is someone who everyone would trust to be right. VPW does not have that kind of following. But the Roman Catholic Church does or the Trinity Belief has enough followers to have there focus blurred by the antichrist.
CK
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ckmkeon
Well this is the last time I will respond to what Goey says unless he can have a pleasent conversation without getting emotinal. My post are of the KJV text and the last time I checked they were the only souce of knowing god's word.
We are discussing I Cor 13 and you decided to bring in Isaiah. Why go into the old testament. When we are discussing a verse or verses in the new testament. There is something that seperates the two of them. Jesus Christ. My scripture is from the bible therefore calling my scripture evil is the same as calling the bible evil.
Don't tell me you just said that abuse would run rampant and unchecked. That happens in the Roman Catholic Church everyday. Who is persecuting them?? While the church just let it happen to kids of all ages from 10 to 15.
Goey I am not sure what lemonade you are drinking but I will explain one more time I use only verses from the KJV with help and teaching from VPW. So there why don't you go ahead and persecute me for saying that VPW helped me understand the word of God.
CK
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doojable
CK - Can you support from scripture that the "wolves(plural)" are the "antichrist (singular)?"
You are making the classic mistake of plugging your particular pet peeve in to scripture. THAT young man, is private interpretation and that is not what the man you want to support and think so highly of taught. Ask your dad.
Now, the antichrist might be a wolf - but not the only wolf. VPW was most probably a wolf - but not the only wolf. Read other verses in Peter to get the full meaning.
BTW - Goey was dead on regarding what the word "thinketh" in "thinketh no evil" means. Go back and read his post. Now how do I know this? I have studied that particular word. It refers to the laying to one's account - as in a savings account. Love does not lay evil to one's account.
Now - Jesus Christ loved perfectly - yet he called the Pharisees "vipers" and he said that they were just like their father "the father of lies." He called it as it was. This is not thinking evil. This is thinking. This is being aware. This is being a watchman.
If you want to play with the big dogs you can't pee like a puppy.
(Sorry - but this line is a favorite of mine and I use it all the time.)
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ckmkeon
Well I am glad I am young so thank you I guess. But you guys (almost everyone here at GS) are looking for every wrong. VPW cannot be at fault for everything. The wolf would lay around and wait for a pounce at a moments notice. There are no records of VPW doing that. The wolf to the antichrist may be wrong but my point was to show that everyone here will go ahead and pounce on that and turn it into VPW. While if VPW was the wolf and lets say for a moment the wolf was the antichrist then why is he (VPW) not here to be here during the return of Christ. I believe the text shows us that false prophets are going to grow more and more. So then why would VPW be wrong and everyone else be right because VPW was right and the false prophets are amoung us now.
CK
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doojable
Second - no one here says that VPW is the antichrist. I said he just Might be a wolf (one of many) And no one knows when the antichrist will come - because no one knows when Jesus Christ will come. You really don't understand the Return and the various stages of the "end times" do you? You're blending too many things that aren't meant to be blended.
Third - False prophets will increase - that's what that means - but it doesn't mean that they will live forever until the Apocalypse.
Fourth - VPW wasn't right (about a lot of things - but not wrong about everything)- the WORD of GOD is right.
BTW - false prophets have been around since the old testament. Jesus said that there would be false prophets and then so did Paul and Peter. VPW only read the scripture. You (or I or the unbeliever down the street) can repeat that same scripture and because the scripture is right, you'll sound right.
Oh but there are records of this very thing. First hand testamonials. What do you call it when a guy(VPW) calls a gal into his motorcoach for a pedicure and greets her in nothing but a towel?
The when she's done with the feet, he stands up and puts his you know what you know where and tells her to, "Finish the job!"
This isn't pouncing? This isn't abuse of power? This is the Love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation? I'll tell you - this is NOT GODLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There is a lot more to the Word of God than what you get in PFAL. And since he is dead - just how do you know what he taught? I'm sad to say that you really don't even have a firm grasp on what was taught, much less have an ability to apply what you were supposed to learn to get the Bible to open up for you.
The whole point of the matter is that you are supposed to be able to go to the Word and understand it for yourself. Not that you are to repeat everything you hear like a puppet. (And you really don't repeat it all that well.)
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socks
Well speaking of wolves, I wasn't referring specifically to VPW or anyone in particular CK. Here's the section in Acts I was thinking of. Following it, my scintillating comments:
27 For I have not shunned to declare to you all the counsel of God.
28 Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost has made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he has purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
32 And now, brothers, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
33 I have coveted no man’s silver, or gold, or apparel.
34 Yes, you yourselves know, that these hands have ministered to my necessities, and to them that were with me.
35 I have showed you all things, how that so laboring you ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
36 ¶ And when he had thus spoken, he kneeled down, and prayed with them all.
37 And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul’s neck, and kissed him,
38 Sorrowing most of all for the words which he spoke, that they should see his face no more. And they accompanied him to the ship.
Step into that record for a second and listen to what Paul's saying.
Now, gently, so I don't give Sirguessalot the impression we're getting weird here...I'm not interested in hammering on VPW or anyone in particular when I mention "wolves". What I meant was, it's an important function of the church, and what you'd probably consider the quality of "leadership", to watch out for, help and warn others in the church when you believe it's going to help. Paul did that. It's a good example of being honest with people here, in a caring way. Paul was living the love he taught about. He could have just said hey folks, it's been a blast. Thanks! I'll be passing the hat around, so if you've been blessed don't be stingy! But he didn't. He really cared about these people and so he left them with the best he had to offer them.
He reminds them of how honest he's been with them in other things too. He worked for a living, supported himself and others, and did so that he wouldn't be grifting off of them to do what he believed he was called to do. And so that he'd have to help others himself. Paul did what he says Jesus taught.
Not that many ministers do that, VPW included. Many feel they're called to do "the Lord's Work" and want everyone else to pay their way to do it. That's not honoring the God who made the call, IMO. I haven't always felt that way, but that's the way I feel today.
That's just one point, not to be harping on it, but it's a point worth considering when we talk about "wolves". Most of the religious world is in the business of building successful Christian businesses, AKA "churches". It's a personal peeve of mine. Has nothing to do with VPW, the Way, the Roman Catholic church, or anyone specifically. I feel the basic message of the LIFE of a minister is often lost in the pursuit of a ministerial career.
Big whoopdee doo. But - as an example - it's one of the things I do post on this board from time to time, if possibly to remind, "warn" people looking into churches like the Way, that we've got some simple clear examples of honest pastoriing and ministering in the bible to look at - certainly Jesus Christ Himself. Paul, many others. To me, that's a part of being loving. Doesn't mean you or anyone else has to or needs to go along with it. I put it out here, as I do in other ways and places, for consideration.
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sirguessalot
thanks socks...i hope you dont worry about me too much, tho
i think the main difference i want to point out
is that there were not 10 elder Pauls tough loving some 19 year old all at once
i dont think Paul was talking about that
greater skillful means on the part of the elders, i think
...or we may end up with 100 pages of thread
and increased bitterness and confusion and misunderstandings
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year2027
God first
Beloved ckmkeon
God loves us all my dear friends
your beginning
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I Cor 13:1
Though I speak with the tounges of men and of angels and have not (charity) [the love of god in the renewed mind]. I am become as a sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal.
The only way to get people to god is with a renewed mind and the love of god. At one point LCM had this love and I have hope he can find his way back. Without the love of god in the renewed mind you are as sharp as a razor when you talk about God. Dr Wierwille said "Without the love of god you are just a noice in a band" You will never make harmony with winning people to God. What I am saying is to win people to God not to the TWI, right now the TWI is corrupt. So what I have done is start a fellowship with the doctrines of VPW and the PFAL class. The plan is to read each verse day by day and give the meaning to the best of my ability
God bless,
CK
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Yes LCM may of had this Love and he may have it today. I heard him speak many times but I never talk one on one to the man. And has for VPW I just hope he was not all show and no love because we all sin and make miss takes for I only talk to him for a few seconds just hi both ways at a rock.
But lets move to the word and forget LCM or VPW because they both are out of our control
I Cor 13:13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
Yes without a deep love for God and all others in a spiritual form we are just flesh which just is dust
I COR 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
And though I can speak or write word of prophecy which God telling me what to say word by word and even that God reveals things to me by word of knowledge and word of wisdom and I have build my believing to the point I could say to a mountain move to the sea and it would with a spiritual fruit know as love of God I am nothing
I COR 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
And though I give all my fleshly riches to feed the poor, even if I give my life as a stand for truth without charity it was a wasted of time
I COR 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
Though I walk the love of God with longsuffering, goodness, gentleness, temperance, Meekness, joy, peace, and faith,
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
I COR 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
The Love of God all ways works but receiving from above by way of the seed of Christ in us will stop in due time
I COR 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
We know in part for now
1 COR 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
For when Christ comes back for us that which is part will be whole
1 COR 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
When I was young in spirit I spoke as a child I understood as a child, I thought as a child but when I became to walk as a man spiritually I put away childish things (like doctrines of man and walk and learned by the spirit of Christ in me)
1 Cor 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
For now we see like looking at our self in a cloudily pond but soon we will see each other clear in true color and we will know as God knows us
1 COR 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
And now we have faith, hope, and charity all three a complete set but the best is the love of God
I could go on but this tread is only about this chapter
Now I am sorry if I wrote the same as a another have not read them all but love the love of God and wanted to join in
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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doojable
Sir G,
I see your point. I also want to make the point that its not only important to be knowlegdeable -
You have to know what you don't know. In order to learn anything it takes being able to step
and ask questions even if you think you know the answer.
Paul burst on to the scene as a murderer. He had to earn trust and he had to LEARN -
so he went and got out of the way for 14 years.
I'll venture to say that Paul just might have been an arrogant 19 year old when he was slashing
Christians - Then Jesus told him he was moving in the wrong direction - BY BLINDING HIM.
Funny, Paul had to be shown that he couldn't see the truth by having his sight taken.
So we can be more gentle with ck - which I have tried. Ck can listen as well.
CK we might ask what seems to be hard questions - they are not to tear you down but to get you
to get beyond your limited vista of answers.
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Goey
VPW himself went many times to the OT in order to add light to the NT. VPW did this extensively in PFAL and his other oher teachings. If you studied VPW's teachings then you should know that.
But, for the record, I did not call your "scripture" evil. I certainly did not call the Bible evil. These are absurd misrepresentation. I called your "doctrine" evil and that's a huge difference. Anyone can quote a scripture and then apply a meaning to it. The meaning you applied to 1 Cor 13, is not the meaning that Paul intended. Your interpretation is spurious and clearly contrary to what Paul teaches elsewhere. It is also contray to many, many other teachings in the Bible. Your doctrine of 1 Cor promotes ignorance and abuse. It is therefore "evil" as far as I am concerned.
Ok, I won't tell you that, becasue I did indeed say a lot more. However, the rest of this is what is known as a strawman argument or a maybe "red herring"( but not every good ones). This actually helps to show what happens when folks close their eyes to evil. But, to answer the question, many Catholics themselves have demanded that the abusers be removed from positions of leadership - and that the abusers be brought to justiice. Many abusers have been arrested and tried in court.Your doctrine teaches that these folks should have close their eyes, and thus let the abuse(evil) continue. So your argument here here is inconsistant with your doctrine and makes no sense unless you are proposing, that like you, the Catholic people and and the RCC leaders should close their eyes and ignore the misdeeds. It was the closing of eyes, same as proposed in your doctrine, that allowed much it in the first place. So, which is it? -- Should they have close their eyes or not. Was the Church right when they closed their eyes, covering up the "evil" of the abusers. Or should they have taken action against it when they became aware of it? Were the families and victims wrong when they exposed the evil? Your doctrine says that it was.
It does not matter to me what version of the Bible someone quotes from. Anyone can quote from the Bible (King James or any other) and then foist an erroneous meaning upon it. This was something that VPW taught very clearly in PFAL. He called it "private interpretation". I thought you learned from VPW? It does not seem so. I am not persecuting you for saying that VPW helped you understand the word of God, he help me in that area too. Instead, I am challenging your interpretation of a section of scripture.CK, the more I read your answers, the more I doubt that you learned much of anything from VPW or PFAL. You contradict the very teachings of VPW, the man you say you learned from - and the man you seem to want to be a martyr for. You don't seem to know anything about him - neither the good, nor the bad - nada.
While it is true that I don't believe that everything that VPW taught was correct, I do believe he did a pretty good job with his basic "keys to research". But you do not apply these keys at all. You don't even seem to know them. If you really learned from VPW it seems that you would at least know the basics of what VPW actually taught. You don't. Instead, It seems to me that you may never have opened a PFAL book.
In any case, you have offered little to support you interpretation of 1 Cor , except mispresentations of what I and others have said, errors concerning what VPW taught, and cries of fowl and persecution.
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Todd, I suggest that your implication that we may be somehow "driving driving him deeper into whatever he is into", is misapplied/misdirected. IMO, he is already in about as deep as he can get.
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ckmkeon
Dooj
Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest. Paul Simon
CK
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Goey
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ckmkeon
No But I am quoting him to Dooj's statement about VPW.
CK
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doojable
Would you care to elaborate?
Which statement are you refering to? I've made many.
What is your point?
CK - you may think that I want to mock you - I assure you, I do not. I really and truly want to see you get you thoughts on paper and see you make that leap to deep thought. So please explain yourself -I'll be patient.
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ckmkeon
Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest
CK
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Goey
Ck,
Ok then, aren't you the one who has said that you will close your eyes concerning VPW, LCM, Geer...?
How is that different from Paul Simon's song lyrics that say "still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest"?
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ckmkeon
There is no difference just another way to say it
CK
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