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Machismo


Dot Matrix
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I do not mean to harm or inflame anyone in this thread but I bet it will happen. May I be the first to say that the folks of Latin decent are some of my favorite people at Greasespot so it is in NO WAY directed at them. Just like a thread that might read “Why do the Irish have drinking problems?” Would not be directed AT me but I would instantly feel compelled to reply “Not all Irish drink – I DO NOT.”

So, this is not about fighting for the individuals and turning this into – so and so is a great person… This is about the majority, a generalization, which I do not mean to be prejudice, but I am trying to understand what is happening where I live. How to survive what is happening at my place of employment and to ask how can I side step all of this to have harmony?

Machismo

IS it different than American masculinity? Is it just extreme masculinity? What does an American woman do when she is faced with it at the work place?

Briefly, I work with a woman from El Savador who is one of my favorite people. She is marvelous, helpful, funny, kind and a pleasure with which to work. We are team mates.

She got her childhood friend, Raul, a job at our place of employment.

I welcomed him as I do all new people, and especially as I like her SOOOO much.

His first day he was about 10 to 20 minutes late. He parked right behind my car making it impossible for me to leave (our parking lot is archaic). I said, “Good morning, listen do you mind moving your car you have blocked me in?”

His response, “You can get out, I am not moving it.”

It has been like this since. The Doctor told me to train him on the computer, I said “You will be with me today, I am to train you on our system.”

His response, “I know all of that, I don’t need you to show me anything.”

(So, when he was left alone he screws everything up because he DID NOT know the program. He has made endless mistakes, then when anyone points out the mistake and the correction he argues about it. He wasn't wrong, the phone rang as he hit a button -- it distracted me so I entered the payment in as $100.00 instead of $10.00, etc, etc.)

He immediately began to “brown nose” the Doctors and treat the rest of us, his peers, like we had aids or something.

IT has manifested in EVERY thing he touches ALL day long. For instance, a client abandoned a dog with us. ( about two weeks after Raul started, so he was still the new guy) The Doctor told me to find it a home, I asked if anyone were interested. All said “No.” I found a person to take it, then Raul stepped forward and said he wanted it. When the Doctor asked why I did not give the dog to the clients who wanted it I told him Raul caused such a ruckus as he wanted it I bowed out. The Doctor told me to tell him the clients are FIRST not him. I begged the Doctor to tell him himself as Raul seemed to have a problem with women. Doc told me to tell him, I did and Raul BLEW up at me slamming the drawer and complaining of me to all that could hear him. It seemed like he wanted to “save face” IT was horrible.

He continued from day one to boss everyone around him and when I told him he was not my boss, he spoke in his language to my dear latin woman friend and the two of them spoke about me in front of me, then neither he nor she would acknowledge me for weeks.

The Doctors want to keep him as “he knows Spanish” and the city I am in, is now about 80% Latino. When they finally saw the problem, they are afraid to let him go due to a possible racial lawsuit. It is a mess.

He has taken lunches that were an hour to an hour and a half longer than we are alloted. He will call and say I am a few minutes late and return at 4:00 pm. The Docs spoke to him, and he just did it again and again and again. Nobody is going to tell him what to do.

The Latino woman and I are now speaking again, and on the side she told me she wishes she never got him the job. But she fears him and lets him push her around.

I lived in California for a period and experienced this Machismo stuff out there. When I would not let a Latino male push me around, he began to blow his nose in my food. I was told he will win at all costs, by another Latino male I was giving “rides” to as he had no car.

I ran into it in Texas while I waitressed and ran twigs. The Latino waiter would go into my assigned section and take my tables. When I confronted him, he would not BACK down. The backing down to him seemed worse than who was right and who was wrong.

I cannot handle this.

What is Machismo, how is it different from American males? How does a woman deal with this in the work place as when I am suppose to direct him, he sees it as a threat to his manhood and he makes me suffer?

Even George Lopez the comedian recognizes this "machismo" and puts it into his act. He says, "Yeah, I have not spoken to my Dad in 15 years."

"Where does he live?"

"On the couch."

(Neither one will back down)

IT is about never backing down, even at the price of what is the right thing to do, as it is seen as wimpy -- or so I have been reading.

Edited by Dot Matrix
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There are jerks and arseholes everywhere.

It's not limited to 'race' or 'sex'.

You need to report these things to the HR person.

(whoever has the HR role)

Get the documentation process started.

If it's been less than 90 days, he can be let go for no other reason than "it's not working out".

If you fear retaliation, make sure the HR person knows that as well.

Be adamant about everything, but do not get sucked into his game.

Do not fear being "the bad guy".

Document and hand over. Document and hand over. (keep copies)

This is harassment plain and simple.

There are laws that protect you if your employer won't.

But I wouldn't put it off on his race.

The culture is different (believe me, I married into a Mexican family), but jerks are jerks.

There is a machismo but it doesn't have to do with being an arsehole.

Being an arsehole has to do with being an arsehole.

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Wow, Dot. It's been rough for you, hasn't it? Wow. I'm sorry! {{{{{Dot}}}}}

What blows me away is that I've had the exact opposite experience with Latino men. Oh, sure, there were a couple of them who acted the way you've described...but that doesn't fly long with me...from ANY man. Hehehe.

We lived on the CA coast for 12 years. Most of the time the jobs I had were waitressing either in restaurants or bars/dance clubs or working in fish processing plants. Either way I was surrounded by Latino men and women. As I said above, my experience has been the exact opposite of yours.

What I experienced was deep kindness and caring for one another and for the community at large. Children were seen as priceless gifts...mine included. Family was all important. Any 'machismo' was expressed by who could give the most.

Our son's first language was Spanish...and at the age of 9 months he was made into a 'pepper belly'...to this day he LOVES 'real' Spanish rice. LOL His sitter was a Mexican woman and her children. They loved our son! She took him wherever she went...showed him off to all her friends as if he were her own child.

Right now my next-door neighbors are Mexican cousins (both young men). They work for a tree service and are trying to get their own business going. They have done over $5,000.00 worth of work on our trees...for free. Every time they see me they say, "Missus do you need anything? Can we help you with anything? You just call us if you ever need anything." They love to work on cars with my husband and they love to share food with us and love it when I send over some 'real American food'. We're even planning to have several block bar-b-que parties (the block consists of us and them...the other houses all around us have been torn down and the streets have been blocked off permanently...so it's very private down here) with lots of family and friends and dancing and singing...and hopefully even have Mariachi sometime.

Our most favorite thing to do on an evening out is go around to the Latino clubs and bars and 'graze' on the foods offered by the street vendors. Most often there are Mariachi playing out in the parking lots and we have a good time listening and sometimes even dancing. They all get a real kick out of seeing the 'gringos' eating hot food. LOL

As for what you're experiencing...

Jerks like that come in all colors, races, ethnic backgrounds, etc. How would you deal with it if it were a white man or woman? Any differently? (I'm not trying to insult you...just trying to understand you.)

I guess all I can say concerning 'machismo' is that I don't think what you've experienced is the 'norm'...imo.

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Pull a ScarFace on his a$$..... Well no you can't do that even though you might want to. I don't know what his problem is - this isn't machismo this is idiocy and insecurity all wrapped up in one package. You mention that your employers don't want to let him go for fear of a lawsuit ? well explain to them that this hombre is "Creating a hostile work environment" and document all his behavior in a log ,diary style,from now on. Its acceptable to log in previous behavior but you should make sure that its noted as such. Have a sit down with your boss, and describe these problems and incidents and more importantly, the impact it has on your ability to work. You don't have to make threats, you don't have to make charges, you just let them know whats up in a matter-of-fact style. If they are even halfway with it and experienced with labor law they will pull this muchacho aside and speak with him. This doesn't mean it will go away but it *does* mean that if things get uglier then they know you have registered your concerns so they MUST take the situation seriously. If they are idiots then they are ripe for a lawsuit from anyone who has to endure the wrath of this guy.

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You also need to document ALL of the times you've brought up his behavior to the Doctors.

AND let them know you're documenting it (in a nice way).

THEY (the Doctors) need a wake up call and a kick in the A$$.

Again, if it's still within the first 90 days of employment they don't need a reason to fire him (Georgia is an "at will" employment state, right?)

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Toms right Dot Document Document Document

Not that you would want to decend to his level but these were kinda funny.......

Why don't you try practicing random acts of intelligence and senseless acts of self-control?

Aw, did I step on your poor little itty bitty _________?

A hard-on doesn't count as personal growth.

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Its not a cultural thing its a person thing.

I just got back from a week in Mexico. I am actually thinking of moving there. Thats right they are trying to come here and I want to move there.

I will say that I like the Mexicans in Mexico more than the latino's here.

I have lived in Texas my whole life and have been the minority rather than the majority.

People are people and you met one who push's his ethnicity as a means to get ahead. Fire him and don't worry. The fact that the doctors hire and retain other lationo's will stop any law suit in its tracks. Besides his pride will prevent him from fileing a suit.

If it was Texas it would be better. This is an :"AT WILL" state. I can fire an employee for any reason at any time. Sex and age are some exceptions but thats hard to prove.

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This is an "at will" state as well.

As is in all stories, each person brings their own baggage.

The Doctors are two wonderful Jewish guys who do not like/want to fire anyone. They are just so trusting and have a hard time believing peole can be that horrible.

I have been documenting things.

There is no human resource person but the Doctors do all the hire/fire stuff.

You almost have to kill someone to get fired. At their other hospital a guy was selling drugs in the parking lot every chance he got. The employees told the Doctors and they let it go.

The emplyees themselves had to make it VERY difficult for the person to stay. Finally, he quit.

There is a blend of circumstances. The other American girl could not deal with this guy and has turned in her notice.

There are arseholes everywhere. I know some great Latin people, my neice is marrying a Mexican.

But there are some cultural extremes and it seems he fits this -- but then so does LCM fit this (laugh)

Machismo in Latin America

In the popular press, in reference materials and in academic literature, the term machismo has been used in many different, quite often contradictory, ways. Even if no one can say for sure where the term came from or what it means, it appears to be a central concept in discussions of the roles, status, rights, responsibilities, influences and moral positions of men and women. The most oft-cited definition seems to have come from Evelyn Stevens, who described machismo as a "cult of virility" whose chief characteristics are "exaggerated aggressiveness and intransigence in male-to-male interpersonal relationships and arrogance and sexual aggression in male-to-female relationships." As such, this definition is a non-specific generality.

The Dictionary of Mexican Cultural Code Words reports "... machismo meant the repudiation of all "feminine" virtues such as unselfishness, kindness, frankness and truthfulness. It meant being willing to lie without compunction, to be suspicious, envious, jealous, malicious, vindictive, brutal and finally, to be willing to fight and kill without hesitation to protect one's manly image. Machismo meant that a man could not let anything detract from his image of himself as a man's man, regardless of the suffering it brought on himself and the women around him. ... The proof of every man's manliness was his ability to completely dominate his wife and children, to have sexual relations with any woman he wanted, to never let anyone question, deprecate or attempt to thwart his manhood, and never to reveal his true feelings to anyone lest they somehow take advantage of him." Now this becomes a multidimensional concept covering multiple personality traits and behaviors. As such, it becomes difficult to classify someone as 'macho' or not without administering a full battery of reliable and valid personality tests. Absent an objective operational definition, the term becomes an irresponsible way of associating negative character traits with an entire continent of Latin American men.

http://www.zonalatina.com/Zldata77.htm

There are cultures that allow a husband to kill his wife and the police look the other way. So I believe this is a confluence of Raul being an extremist in the masculinity thing, he is about 4'11", I believe he cannot read English so he deverts to yelling at people to hide his short falls - etc.

We have a black woman vet from the Bahamas who is one of the kindest most intelligent people around. She is so womanly, she never swears, she is like being around a princess.

She went to the male Docs in charge and said Raul will not listen or take direction from a woman including her. He argues all the time and is NEVER wrong -- She told them today.

We will see what happens.

Yes, there are problems in all cultures, perhaps the latinos just have a word for some of the problems between men and woman or something

http://www.hrw.org/about/projects/womrep/General-187.htm

The continued application of the honor defense, which has no basis in law,26 is inherently biased, and is almost exclusively applied to wife-murder. The emphasis on "provocation" by the victim even in pre-meditated wife-murder crimes; the near total failure to prosecute battery and rape in the home; and the prejudicial treatment of rape victims both in law and in fact, represents a pattern of discriminatory treatment by the criminal justice system of female victims of domestic violence. This pattern demonstrates that Brazil does not meet its international obligations to guarantee to its female citizens the equal enjoyment of their civil and political rights and the equal protection of the law.

Brazil has taken limited steps toward meeting these obligations. In 1991 Brazil's highest court rejected the defense of honor for the crime of wife-murder in its Lopes decision.27 The 1988 constitution reflects a concern for familial violence and specifically calls for states to establish mechanism to impede domestic violence. And, the creation of the women's police stations also indicates Brazil's recognition both of the wide-scale problem of violence against women and its obligations to take positive steps toward eradicating such abuse.

And here in a different country:

Many cultures condone or at least tolerate a certain amount of violence against women. In parts of South Asia, Western Asia and Africa, for instance...

http://www.afrol.com/Categories/Women/wom0...lence_unfpa.htm

I truly think this guy is into this kind of thinking....

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My comments in BOLD:

The Doctors are two wonderful Jewish guys who do not like/want to fire anyone. They are just so trusting and have a hard time believing peole can be that horrible.

I have been documenting things.

There is no human resource person but the Doctors do all the hire/fire stuff.

I'm glad you have nice bosses to work for BUT if they don't do something they're leaving themselves open to a lawsuit (from you and the other employees), maybe they'll understand that. I cannot believe that in this day and age they don't understand the workplace definition of "harassment".

It's good that you've been documenting, that will come in handy. Make a copy of it and take it to the Doctors. YOU MUST GET "ON RECORD".

You almost have to kill someone to get fired. At their other hospital a guy was selling drugs in the parking lot every chance he got. The employees told the Doctors and they let it go.

The emplyees themselves had to make it VERY difficult for the person to stay. Finally, he quit.

I'm beginning to change my opinion of the Doctors you work for. They are not "nice guys" if they allowed that, and this, to go on at the expense of other employees.

But there are some cultural extremes and it seems he fits this -- but then so does LCM fit this (laugh)

Again, IMO this is not a 'cultural extreme'... this is a BEHAVIOR extreme. HUMAN BEHAVIOR

Machismo in Latin America

In the popular press, in reference materials and in academic literature, the term machismo has been used in many different, quite often contradictory, ways. Even if no one can say for sure where the term came from or what it means, it appears to be a central concept in discussions of the roles, status, rights, responsibilities, influences and moral positions of men and women. The most oft-cited definition seems to have come from Evelyn Stevens, who described machismo as a "cult of virility" whose chief characteristics are "exaggerated aggressiveness and intransigence in male-to-male interpersonal relationships and arrogance and sexual aggression in male-to-female relationships." As such, this definition is a non-specific generality.

The Dictionary of Mexican Cultural Code Words reports "... machismo meant the repudiation of all "feminine" virtues such as unselfishness, kindness, frankness and truthfulness. It meant being willing to lie without compunction, to be suspicious, envious, jealous, malicious, vindictive, brutal and finally, to be willing to fight and kill without hesitation to protect one's manly image. Machismo meant that a man could not let anything detract from his image of himself as a man's man, regardless of the suffering it brought on himself and the women around him. ... The proof of every man's manliness was his ability to completely dominate his wife and children, to have sexual relations with any woman he wanted, to never let anyone question, deprecate or attempt to thwart his manhood, and never to reveal his true feelings to anyone lest they somehow take advantage of him." Now this becomes a multidimensional concept covering multiple personality traits and behaviors. As such, it becomes difficult to classify someone as 'macho' or not without administering a full battery of reliable and valid personality tests. Absent an objective operational definition, the term becomes an irresponsible way of associating negative character traits with an entire continent of Latin American men.

http://www.zonalatina.com/Zldata77.htm

These seem to me to be 'extremist'. Nevertheless, this behavior is found in all cultures. Why do you think they call tank top tee shirts "wife beaters"? But that doesn't mean that everyone (or most) who wears a white tank top is abusive to their wife.

There are cultures that allow a husband to kill his wife and the police look the other way. So I believe this is a confluence of Raul being an extremist in the masculinity thing, he is about 4'11", I believe he cannot read English so he deverts to yelling at people to hide his short falls - etc.

We have a black woman vet from the Bahamas who is one of the kindest most intelligent people around. She is so womanly, she never swears, she is like being around a princess.

She went to the male Docs in charge and said Raul will not listen or take direction from a woman including her. He argues all the time and is NEVER wrong -- She told them today.

She needs to document and get 'on record' as well.

We will see what happens.

If you take that attitude, without taking the other steps, you're only setting yourself up for more of the same.

Yes, there are problems in all cultures, perhaps the latinos just have a word for some of the problems between men and woman or something

(snip)

I truly think this guy is into this kind of thinking....

well... yeah... he's truly a jerk... and will not stop if you, your co-workers and the doctors continue to allow it.

Dot, there's nothing else anyone can say that we haven't already said but I would still urge you not to lay this on one particular ethnic group. If things are really as bad as you say they are this is fairly 'cut and dried'. The good folks there can stop it now or let it go on hoping it will work itself out. It won't... of that I can be fairly certain.

AND ex70's is right. He can be fired for any or no reason at all other than gender and age. Even "it's just not working out for us"... ESPECIALLY if you folks go on record with them.

I just got back from a week in Mexico. I am actually thinking of moving there. Thats right they are trying to come here and I want to move there.

We're seriously thinking of that as well... (of course it's easier for us, my wife is Mexican)... we're thinking somewhere in the mountains off of the Pacific Coast...

Edited by Tom Strange
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Dot,

You mentioned that "they" might be worried about a lawsuit if they let him go...

Perhaps, they should be more worried about a sexual harrassment lawsuit for failing to put a stop to a hostile work enviroment.

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Z-Shot said:

Dot,

You mentioned that "they" might be worried about a lawsuit if they let him go...

Perhaps, they should be more worried about a sexual harrassment lawsuit for failing to put a stop to a hostile work enviroment.

Totally! Paper trail, paper trail, paper trail! Get all of your fellow disgruntled workers on board with this. At the very least, you can get the little miscreant out of your hair! And even if you believe it is a "machismo" latino trait, make sure you leave that sentiment out of it completely. For if you don't it will backfire in your face, it'll get twisted around and you will be the one guilty of racism, which we all know you are not... :wave:

Edited by Jonny Lingo
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Monster board is often helpful at times like this - I had a toxic boss (still have her, in fact) but learned how to deal with her so I didn't "catch the disease" if you know what I mean...

This link is for the Bully at the Workplace forum:

http://community.monster.com/Forums/ShowFo...aspx?ForumID=95

There's been some good advice here, too.

It stinks when the people who you have to spend the majority of your waking hours with during the day are just complete @$$holes...

By the way - ever ask this dude why he left his last job? hmmmm?

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So, the way to deal with Raul is actually to document his behavior and show the bosses.

And it is not a thing called Machismo -- that he was taught in his culture, but a real problem with Raul himself -- he is merely a jerk of f

I have been to the bosses a few times. One of the times, the one Doctor in a paletable way, pretty much said to mind my own business.

So, when it got to the point I could not do my job and the other girl turned in her notice -- I went back to them.

You think I should wear a wire?

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I was wondering that, I recently bought alittle digital recorder at Radio Shack that is smaller than a cell phone for about $80. You can hold it in the palm of your hand , turn it on with a tiny movement, and it records about umpteen billion hours.....I didnt mention it because I dont know the laws on that---but I sure would

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So, the way to deal with Raul is actually to document his behavior and show the bosses.

And it is not a thing called Machismo -- that he was taught in his culture, but a real problem with Raul himself -- he is merely a jerk of f

I have been to the bosses a few times. One of the times, the one Doctor in a paletable way, pretty much said to mind my own business.

So, when it got to the point I could not do my job and the other girl turned in her notice -- I went back to them.

You think I should wear a wire?

You could do that if you want to... then it wouldn't have any chance of being a "he said she said"... but I don't think it would be that anyway if the others have complained as well. Do you know the times and dates that you complained to them? Any of the specifics? I think your next step also might be to complain IN WRITING to them (while noting in the complaint that it's the third time). Like Mstar said, you can get little pen recorders, etc at Radio Shack pretty cheap.

And while this guy may also display the Latino machismo... that's not what this is... this is just an arsehole who needs to be gone... HIS friends in HIS culture probably don't like him any more than you do... what I'm wondering is why on earth this "friend" of yours brought him to work there? ...I kind of doubt that he got that way overnight...

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So, the way to deal with Raul is actually to document his behavior and show the bosses.

And it is not a thing called Machismo -- that he was taught in his culture, but a real problem with Raul himself -- he is merely a jerk of f

I have been to the bosses a few times. One of the times, the one Doctor in a paletable way, pretty much said to mind my own business.

Make sure your bosses know that you are documenting this stuff,

give them copies of the documents (keep the originals),

and if they tell you to mind your own business, document that too.

Letting them know that his *attitude* has a distinct adverse effect on the work place,

and that work productivity is down because of it, and being diligent (spoudazo') about it

is what (should) do the trick, if your bosses care at all.

That was the method we used at Noumenon House, to alleviate the problem

of the tyrannical boss we had a year ago, and it was the *spoudazo'* mostly

(along with the *paper trail*), that finally did the trick.

(We also documented the times we had gone to upper management,

(as well as the times of the incidents), and how well we were/ or were not received.)

Good luck. :)

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