I wonder how many other pedophiles and other assorted perverts have been appointed to positions of power by the Bush administration? After all, this kind of stuff was common with the Nazis, as well, you know.
/sarc                         Â
(sorry, I don't mean to invoke Godwin's law, but I'm surprised nobody had gone there yet)
Seriously, folks, what do you do to identify these people beforehand? This guy, by giving out his real world information, obviously has some kind of sickness in the head. Nobody could be that stupid...
A genetic test? (prevent reproduction by those with the correct gene)
Psychological screening? (find the warning signs beforehand as part of the screening process for employment or security clearances)
I've no time to give this although will be tempted to do so today and must remain focused at work. But....
Satori had no choice but to broaden his understanding and we may not like all he says and you shouldn't be surprised that he himself on occasion does not like all he says but....
It is possible for a person to have such intensity as to cause you to have to take action of some sort or you cannot function properly no matter the task. If you added to that a few things like 1) not being taken care of in the normal way we all should be that are sexually active so as to not cause seeking elsewhere 2) acknowledging that we expand what is acceptable behind closed doors every generation due to what is publicly accepted and this does impact 3) being broken in other areas of your life that causes something YOU can control to be more important than it should be and we don't even have to equate self worth to this
There is more but those are a few and you knew I felt that way prior if you knew me of late. Still I repeat myself which seems allowed around this hang out of ours.
If this man gave his personal information then he has a problem and I'm thankful he was found to have. His life will never be the same but you know what his life was never the same to begin with.
Satori may pi$$ us off at times but allowed room in your thinking he has some personal knowledge from which he speaks from, you might want to consider that if you would please.
And Abi I believe I may have in the past said rude things of support, I never meant to include people who had a need. That is what the system was designed for. I hope I was never rude to you.
Seriously, folks, what do you do to identify these people beforehand? This guy, by giving out his real world information, obviously has some kind of sickness in the head. Nobody could be that stupid...
These are the issues that need to be addressed.
First, the more power and authority one wields, the more likely one is to get exactly what one wants.
He told this real world information to intimidate and control.
If the person this man was chatting with had actually been a 14yo girl, who the ph**ck was she going to tell...who the ph**ck would have believed her? No 14yo girl would have even thought to tell. She would have been too intimidated.
One needs to understand that he didn't just 'give out' his real world information...he used his real world information. And he used it knowing that it would be so intimidating that no child would ever have the courage to go against him and actually tell on him.
It never crossed his mind that he would be caught.
Those with the power and authority this man had do not have to think about getting caught.
Catching this man was pure accident...pure luck of the chat room surveillance draw.
Second, it is not as difficult as one would think to spot these perpetrators.
It takes knowing and recognizing the tell-tale signs.
Really. It is that simple.
What I think needs to happen is to have a think tank of recovering victims. I guarandamntee you that every victim recognizes every perpetrator.
Get us all together and get us talking about the things that tell us who these perps are...talking about how we protect ourselves.
And believe us.
I have never known a recovering victim to be wrong in his/her instincts.
I do, however, know how all too often our instincts get pushed down due to fear of being ostracized, mockery, ridicule, further attacks...
never in a zillion years would i think satori is showing empathy for pedophiles
i don't know enough to say what's what, but i wanted to mention that my uncle was a wonderful smart caring funny human being. i mean it. i have no idea why he would molest a child, his own adoring niece, no less. i don't know if he knew why. he's dead so it's too late to ask him. but he was a good soul in so many ways.
i don't have a problem with wanting to help someone with perverted urges.... anything that would prevent harm to little boys and girls.... this stuff can ruin entire lives and create more perverts
so much of his is coming out these days. do you think it's the internet that's exposing more of this stuff?
i was listening to a shrink on the radio about this particular case. for what it's worth, he said this guy's compulsions were greater than his rational thinking. you know, he was risking it all pretty much, and still couldn't stop himself
Ok, so if there are some of us here that are trying to 'broaden our perspectives' as regards the child porn/molestation situation, why is it that the laws that strengthen penalties (as discussed on other threads here) aren't challenged as well. I mean, if this is basically a sickness, why shouldn't the laws take that into consideration?
There are too many trials where the perps use either the insanity/mental defect defense, or the "what I'm doing is an illness" defense, and moral/ethical accountability is the first thing that gets thrown out by the defense. And because sexually based crimes are especially heinous, these kinds of defenses should be even more strictly limited, not 'broadened'.
Satori, even if I'm wrong about everything else you posted here (altho' I have some serious doubts about that), I *know* I'm not wrong for mocking/challenging this you posted:
I'll concede that rape is about "violence and control" if the rest of you will concede that "violence and control" is about sex.
How many ways is sexuality expressed? One? Two? Let's see... "first comes love, then comes marriage, then comes Junior in the baby carriage." Is that all?
Sex, you people, is not what you've seen on TV. Violence is about control. Control is about domination. Domination is about mating and procreation. Procreation is about sex. (emphasis mine)
No matter how tepid and tame it may be portrayed to be in the American middle-class experience, sex is at the root of most controlling and violent behavior in the world, and that includes the animal kingdom as well as the human. (I can't speak for vegetation, but maybe Garth could share a bit.) NOT the other way around.
This kind of 'reasoning' is what civilized societies are answer to, to get beyond the exclusively primal, animalistic instincts that are indeed a part of us. And especially to deal with the perverted sexual abuse of children. Why else is it that societies that still allow for the sexual dealings with children are regarded as *less* civilized? (Like the fanatic Muslim societies for example. Aren't they the same ones who are so abusive and backwards in many other areas? Aren't they the same ones who hate our freedoms? But I digress)
Ok, so if you weren't making excuses for Doyle and child molesters in general, what would you call statements like
"It should be obvious to anyone that the evil he was committing was compulsive. It blinded him.",
"If he didn't see the potential harm he could do himself, did he see the real harm he might do to a child? I don't think he did.",
"The point is, the sex drive compels human beings to behave irrationally."
ie., how could expressions like that not be seen as excuse making? And I'm serious about this question too. (And if all you can do is come back with your typical ad hominem crap like "the more I reply to your mistakes, the longer your posts become.", I'm not interested, as it is an unprincipled dodge, and your posts are just as long.)
From what I can see, even taking into account the power of the sex drive and/or the perversion of it towards kids, the desire for swift and harsh punishment of the perps (what you mistake as 'lynch mob mentality') is needed. It is that kind of desire that has been largely ignored/downplayed for many a year until about 20-30 years ago when it started being really looked at from a psychological/sociological health point of view.
Does it need to be done smarter? Yes, but not with this mentality of "Well, he can't really help himself, as his perverted sex drive is so powerful".
You said "The obsession does not fear death or consequences." Maybe not, but the obsessor sure does. This is clearly evidenced when they see a loaded gun pointed straight at them by an enraged parent of their target. ... Talk about your quick cures!
Let's ride with this idea that pedophilia is about 'sex drive'.
First, let's remove the stigma. Let's no longer use terms such as 'pedophilia', 'sex drive', 'evil', 'perv', 'compulsion', etc. Let's just talk about this in non-inflammatory, non-derogatory terms.
Second, let's take several deep breaths and get beyond our revulsions at talking about minors in a sexual way.
3) we have a "culture shock problem" here in Alaska.
Outside of the major population areas most people live in villages, and those villagers are mostly Alaska Native Americans. Bush Alaska has no roads. Many villages, if they have electricity at all, only have it in say the school and the general store, it's just cost prohibitive to have it in private housing. Many villages have no septic or sewer systems, Food as we think of food has to barged in on the rivers or brought in by small plane $6-$8 for a regular can of corn is the going rate with other supplies commensurate.
Why I am tell you all this is
These people, for the most part, live just as their Ancestors did, Subsistence based.
Sons are hunting by age 6 often bringing home their first kill at 7, and I mean A moose or caribou, not a bunny rabbit. Girls at the same age, are cooking, cleaning and caring for babies. Many families live in one room cabins. It is not unusual for an 8-10 year old to be left weeks at a time; while parents are out hunting and fishing or otherwise engaged; caring for the house and siblings -- that means cutting, wood, hauling water, cooking, etc etc etc. Needless to say there are no Secrets when it comes to sex, or babies or anything else.
In this culture a girl is a women when she hits 12 ditto a boy.
And here lies the problem, at 13 she is a woman both in what she knows and her ability to make decisions, act on them, and fill her place in her society. these "girls" are far more mature than their city bred contemporaries. So in that culture for a 20 year old to have relations with a 13-14 year old ranks about on the same par as a 23 and a 30 year old in "our world"
Enter the Indian Child Protection Act--enacted to protect children in the lower 48's, But lower 48 natives aren't living in the culture of 1840, so there it works
but in Alaska you have the dichotomy of a women who is a "adult" in every sense of the word as we understand it being called a "child" by a social worker, who could care less about reality as long as the figures on the paper say they are "fighting sexual abuse of minors among the native population"
I, who hate child molesters with all my being , have a real problem with this violation of the "spirit of the law". And this violation, IMO, vastly inflates the numbers for Alaska
Do you get what she is saying here?
She is saying that when child-protective laws are enforced upon a culture whose children are vastly more mature, more prepared, more likely to marry, breed, etc. at quite young ages, to enforce such laws regardless of the culture is violating the 'spirit of the law'...and inflating the numbers of 'abused' children in Native Alaskan populations.
This is a superb point.
It is a 'modern' idea that those under 18 are somehow asexual...or at least should be.
History clearly shows that sexuality in the pre-teen and teen years was expected and accepted for the vast majority of history.
Even us bible-thumpers don't have much of a leg to stand on when it comes to the asexuality of teens...for wasn't Mary, the mother of Jesus, a young teenager?
And there are still cultures today, as Mo has pointed out, where children are prepared to expect and accept their own sexuality.
So, could this possibly be where the problem lies? Could it be possible that it is normal for children to be seen as sexual beings?
On the surface of the question it's almost a "Duh!" answer, isn't it? I mean, seriously, children 'play doctor' as early as 3yo and they are known to begin masturbating at about the same age. 'Playing house' with a mommy and a daddy and a baby or two is common play among elementary school children. These things are expected and accepted even in the most up-tight cultures.
One could argue, "Yeah, but that's between children, not between adults and children."
Well, history also shows that marriages between vastly older men and young, often pre-teen, girls was expected and accepted for the vast majority of history.
Even today in mainstream America it is accepted under the law. Many 'age of consent' laws allow that a 12yo girl has arrived at the 'age of consent'. (Kansas changed that age to 16 just a couple or so years ago.)
Rape laws concerning minors follow the 'age of consent' laws pretty closely.
In fact, society in general expects and accepts the sexuality of children from puberty on.
And doesn't society in general really accept that children, regardless of age, are sexual beings?
Of course.
Why else would gender identity be such an issue? Why else do we dress our baby girls in pink and ribbons and our baby boys in blue and baseball caps?
We want our children from birth to be 'real boys' or 'real girls'.
There's only one honest reason to so exaggeratedly define gender identity: procreation.
And procreation is about sexuality. Plain and simple.
I don't think that anybody would argue otherwise.
I certainly don't.
So now comes the hard question...
What is wrong with Grandpa or Uncle or Grandma or Auntie or the good friend of the family..or even the kind neighbor or school teacher...being sexual with our children?
Before I answer this question I am going to share two personal experiences of mine.
WARNING! What follows could be triggering and/or 'disgusting/offensive'.
When I was growing up our back fence was on the property line between my folk's property and a neighbor's property. The two back yards were separated by the fence.
Well, that neighbor was a nudist.
It was common for him to run around his back yard completely naked.
Of course, his back yard was presumably very private. His back fence was a 6' tall wooden privacy fence. Our back fence line and his other neighbor's side fence line were made private with very thick, very tall (about 5') hedge bushes.
But don't we all know about kids? Put up something to keep them out, they're gonna find a way in. Tell them not to look...they're gonna look for sure.
And me, my brother and my sister, ages just turned 5, almost 3 and almost 2 the first time...we scrambled our way under those hedge bushes and we looked.
This went on for years.
We were not scared or offended. We did not feel abused or in any other way damaged.
In fact, we giggled a whole lot and really enjoyed it when he came over and talked to us. We really liked this guy. He was funny, did magic tricks, talked to us honestly and openly about the human body whenever we asked questions, even let us poke fun at him when he was doing yard work and got into some very funny looking positions.
:o
Yep. I said all that.
And here's another story from when I was growing up...
My grandpa (may he rest in peace) has always been my most favorite person in the whole wide world.
He understood me. He was a good, kind, gentle man. He turned my severe dyslexia into a gift by teaching me that I had 'magic eyes' and that I saw things the way they really were...everybody else was wrong. This was long before the word 'dyslexia' came into common vocabulary. He had no boys of his own, my brother was too young and too crippled as a child to do typical boy stuff, and I was a difficult tomboy. It fell on Grandpa's shoulders to 'handle' me because Grandpa was the only person in the world I was willing to behave for. He taught me how to work on cars, how to throw a baseball and a football, how to build things, how to comprehend mathematics and science, and all very wonderful things that I would have missed out on if I had behaved myself. One of the first books I remember reading besides the 'Dick and Jane' books was Grandpa's Handbook of Chemistry and Physics. I was in the 3rd grade.
As you can see, me and Grandpa were buddies like no other buddies in the whole wide world.
One other thing Grandpa introduced me to was sexual love.
There was never any penetration, never any force, never any shame, never any blame, never any threats.
In fact, Grandpa didn't even say anything like, "This is our secret," or "You have to keep this secret". There was never any conversation at all...before, during or after these times.
It was just one other thing me and Grandpa did together.
And I loved him just as much, if not more.
:o
Yep. I said all that.
So, back to the question...
What is wrong with Grandpa or Uncle or Grandma or Auntie or the good friend of the family..or even the kind neighbor or school teacher...being sexual with our children?
I'm not going to answer this question because, 1)It is not for me to determine, and 2)It is fallacious to the topic of this thread.
Because the topic of this thread is not about human sexuality.
The topic of this thread is about a person who exerted violence and control not for sexual gratification, but for the thrill of exerting violence and control.
If anyone doesn't get this, if anyone cannot differentiate between human sexuality and violence and control...
Well...there's a tell-tale sign...of something...if I ever saw one...
Thank you for your well-thought out (and non-insulting) response. You took the time to really (if you'll pardon the oft used term here ) 'broaden our perspectives' by means of a detailed POV that has us think.
I must admit that I would have reservations about a few of the things that some of the folks you describe did, but that's just me. Maybe its the 'ewww' factor, maybe something else. And perhaps its a result of what/how a lot of our society treats sex and sexuality. The homosexuality issue is a classic example of this.
But I do see that any form of sexuality, when coupled with unwanted force and control or when the recipient isn't ready for it, abuses invariably follow, as you have shown.
If anyone looks back through my posts concerning such things, one can see a 'waffling' of my thoughts, my feelings concerning such things that I experienced. In fact, it wasn't too very long ago...weeks only...when I posted that I didn't know if I was ever going to be anything but broken and screwed up concerning sexuality.
Threads like this one and the others that handle the topics found in this thread have helped me look at my own reality...have helped me separate out what I think and feel from what I've been told I should think and feel...have helped me realize that I do know the difference between my sexuality and the violence and control perpetrated against me...have helped me to see that I do not live in a fairy tale mentality.
Even though it's always hard, always infuriating, always a slap in the face to involve myself in such threads, it's also been quite purging, certainly ennobling, and always good for my soul.
My purpose for participating in such threads has been to help others find these things for their lives.
1) I have no disagreement with the concept that it is a sickness, be it via compulsion/control/whatever. Likewise, I would say serial killers committ their crimes due to a sickness as well. So do we feel sorry for the serial killers? Do we unleash them upon society to kill again? Most drug dealers (even the small time ones) get longer sentences than many pedophiles!
In any case, our society - our psychiatrists and psychologists - have no idea how to cure this sickness, if it can be cured. Statistics bear that out. So, the only way to protect our chidren is to educate them and to lock these sick people up and throw away the key.
2) Having been the "victim" of one of these sick people, I do not believe for one minute it is about sex drive at all. It is about power and control.
"Violence is about control. Control is about domination. Domination is about mating and procreation. Procreation is about sex"
Yes, I think violence is often about control and control about domination. However, I don't buy into domination being about mating and procreation, and ultimately sex. Having been in a healthy sexual relationship with a healthy man, without all the control issues that existed in my previous relationship - there is a world of difference. And that difference is manifested in EVERY aspect of the relationship.
3) "We need to recognize that the sexual drive is cyclical, and that the predator might be reached at it's low end. We need to make use of our knowledge, to exploit what we know"
I likewise don't buy that it is cyclical. Again, because I have been on the receiving end and there was no cycle to it - at least not one that was obvious - and believe me I learned early on to watch for patterns and cycles in order to try and avoid other abusive behaviors. But for the sexual ones - there was no pattern, no warning signs, and no discernable cycle. Perhaps, because as I stated above, this isn't about sex drive - it is about control.
3) My statement regarding empathy was in response to the following:
"Brian Doyle's life is over. His humiliation is probably worse than death (to him). He is a leper, a pariah, a piece of filth in the eyes of everyone he ever cared about. His career is finished. His future is prison, possibly resulting in his own murder, and a life of abject shame. Look what it's cost him. You think he didn't know it could happen?"
Given our judicial system's sentencing history, it is very possible - particularly for someone who can afford a good attorney - that this guy will be unleashed upon us again in the not too distant future. No, I have no pity for him - I'm sorry but I can't bring myself to feel that for him. If that somehow makes me less intelligent and more prone to "mob mentality" so be it.
there was a government person in our area (i went to high school with him, my sister dated him) and he was caught in an internet sting operation. he went to meet a lady and her 10 year old daughter for something called "fam fun" or something like that, meaning family sex.
when he got there with all his fun paraphernalia, he was met by the cops
i don't know even know what to say, words fail me, that he would do this, and think that a mom would come and bring her little girl
anyway, i don't even know if he's doing "time." last i heard, in the paper, he got some kind of counseling and his young adult children are supporting him. his wife might even be. i know his mom put up his bail money.
oh god help me - well him really, not me
**
anyway, there might be something deeply wrong with me that i loved and love my uncle. i just don't know what to say
for some reason, i can tell you how bad and wrong wierwille was
why in god's name do i think it would have been very sad for my uncle to have been put to death or locked up? i think i really loved him
anyway, this is just me thinking out loud. please allow me. but i am learning from this thread an others
control over children...... what a sick sad thing..... especially when done with kindness
i can't think of much worse
thank you all for your thoughts
i agree about crimes being sickness in reference to serial killers. why don't we try to fix them? because they are not fixable. so have i answered my own difficult question?
crapola
for me it's a tough discussion
i think i would die before taking advantage of an innocent child. so maybe......
i did talk to him at his coffin and just begged him to tell me why he would destroy me
he didn't answer
and as far as beautiful lovemaking which abi kind of mentioned. that sounds great and right
Excath, I'd like to talk to you but first I need to address something to others as well.
I'm not saying unnatural drives turn us into people that would cause media attention like this. I'm saying it can be the catalyst and if you have deficiency in other areas of your life it can set a firm foundation on which to build no good.
When I spoke of Satori I did because I understand what he is saying. He too wants them out of the way of our children and is trying to find a way to fix the problem at the stem rather than just terminate the person that has given over. To what I can't know for myself, and yet I could be one who would be terminated if I ever chose. You would be saying oh yes don't you remember that chatty one and her history and look were she ended. She must have been worse than we thought at moments (I'll give ya a few ) to have become insane and destructive. Too bad someone couldn't have helped her see her way out. Some of you have let me know it's obvious I'm working my way out and have gone quite a stretch since first I came to hang with you here. I haven't found my way out alone though.
Nor would I have ever hurt a child. I just can't comprehend it because my mind seems to have an aversion to it and stops any such horrible considerations. How could I or excath or the others who have come forward with their stories ever hurt another child when we know what it did to us! It is not sound thinking is it?
I didn't always have to do it alone. I've had someone that I've screamed and cried at and thought I even hated at times because of the intensity in which we chose to help me. You can't do it alone. That is what I understand as part of what Satori is saying. Find a way to help fix them.
Excath, I'll let this sit a moment and address you in a shorter post dear one.
anyway, there might be something deeply wrong with me that i loved and love my uncle. i just don't know what to say
for some reason, i can tell you how bad and wrong wierwille was
why in god's name do i think it would have been very sad for my uncle to have been put to death or locked up? i think i really loved him
It has been unsettling at times to realize how you and I can understand certain things experientially. We loved them because they showed us a form of love. We didn't know the difference and had we been giving the proper balance of it wouldn't have been lacking thus ready to receive. Would we have been?
Have you ever thought that our relatives were the worse ones of all? Because they set us up. They helped screw up the normal growth period for us didn't they? We weren't like the other little girls were we? The ones you and I want to still love somehow are the ones that screwed us over the worse perhaps.
anyway, this is just me thinking out loud. please allow me. but i am learning from this thread an others
control over children...... what a sick sad thing..... especially when done with kindness
i can't think of much worse
See that's what I mean. How could you bring on that world of pain to them? These folks are not well!
trying to clarify..... when you need to be rescued and someone does it..... then introduces you to..... well you understand.... it's a rescue in kindness (so it seems) but it's not kind at all, is it ?
i don't know if i like this place as much as you do :) but i'm an addict obviously
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markomalley
I wonder how many other pedophiles and other assorted perverts have been appointed to positions of power by the Bush administration? After all, this kind of stuff was common with the Nazis, as well, you know.
/sarc                         Â
(sorry, I don't mean to invoke Godwin's law, but I'm surprised nobody had gone there yet)
Seriously, folks, what do you do to identify these people beforehand? This guy, by giving out his real world information, obviously has some kind of sickness in the head. Nobody could be that stupid...
A genetic test? (prevent reproduction by those with the correct gene)
Psychological screening? (find the warning signs beforehand as part of the screening process for employment or security clearances)
I don't know...
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ChattyKathy
This stuff just doesn't go away does it. :(
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ChattyKathy
I've no time to give this although will be tempted to do so today and must remain focused at work. But....
Satori had no choice but to broaden his understanding and we may not like all he says and you shouldn't be surprised that he himself on occasion does not like all he says but....
It is possible for a person to have such intensity as to cause you to have to take action of some sort or you cannot function properly no matter the task. If you added to that a few things like 1) not being taken care of in the normal way we all should be that are sexually active so as to not cause seeking elsewhere 2) acknowledging that we expand what is acceptable behind closed doors every generation due to what is publicly accepted and this does impact 3) being broken in other areas of your life that causes something YOU can control to be more important than it should be and we don't even have to equate self worth to this
There is more but those are a few and you knew I felt that way prior if you knew me of late. Still I repeat myself which seems allowed around this hang out of ours.
If this man gave his personal information then he has a problem and I'm thankful he was found to have. His life will never be the same but you know what his life was never the same to begin with.
Satori may pi$$ us off at times but allowed room in your thinking he has some personal knowledge from which he speaks from, you might want to consider that if you would please.
And Abi I believe I may have in the past said rude things of support, I never meant to include people who had a need. That is what the system was designed for. I hope I was never rude to you.
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CoolWaters
These are the issues that need to be addressed.
First, the more power and authority one wields, the more likely one is to get exactly what one wants.
He told this real world information to intimidate and control.
If the person this man was chatting with had actually been a 14yo girl, who the ph**ck was she going to tell...who the ph**ck would have believed her? No 14yo girl would have even thought to tell. She would have been too intimidated.
One needs to understand that he didn't just 'give out' his real world information...he used his real world information. And he used it knowing that it would be so intimidating that no child would ever have the courage to go against him and actually tell on him.
It never crossed his mind that he would be caught.
Those with the power and authority this man had do not have to think about getting caught.
Catching this man was pure accident...pure luck of the chat room surveillance draw.
Second, it is not as difficult as one would think to spot these perpetrators.
It takes knowing and recognizing the tell-tale signs.
Really. It is that simple.
What I think needs to happen is to have a think tank of recovering victims. I guarandamntee you that every victim recognizes every perpetrator.
Get us all together and get us talking about the things that tell us who these perps are...talking about how we protect ourselves.
And believe us.
I have never known a recovering victim to be wrong in his/her instincts.
I do, however, know how all too often our instincts get pushed down due to fear of being ostracized, mockery, ridicule, further attacks...
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excathedra
never in a zillion years would i think satori is showing empathy for pedophiles
i don't know enough to say what's what, but i wanted to mention that my uncle was a wonderful smart caring funny human being. i mean it. i have no idea why he would molest a child, his own adoring niece, no less. i don't know if he knew why. he's dead so it's too late to ask him. but he was a good soul in so many ways.
i don't have a problem with wanting to help someone with perverted urges.... anything that would prevent harm to little boys and girls.... this stuff can ruin entire lives and create more perverts
so much of his is coming out these days. do you think it's the internet that's exposing more of this stuff?
i was listening to a shrink on the radio about this particular case. for what it's worth, he said this guy's compulsions were greater than his rational thinking. you know, he was risking it all pretty much, and still couldn't stop himself
peace out
(to quote a nice 6th grader i know)
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ChattyKathy
You nailed my thoughts on a couple of things dear girl.
Peace to all today! I must stay away from here. I've way too much on my desk. :unsure:
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GarthP2000
Ok, so if there are some of us here that are trying to 'broaden our perspectives' as regards the child porn/molestation situation, why is it that the laws that strengthen penalties (as discussed on other threads here) aren't challenged as well. I mean, if this is basically a sickness, why shouldn't the laws take that into consideration?
There are too many trials where the perps use either the insanity/mental defect defense, or the "what I'm doing is an illness" defense, and moral/ethical accountability is the first thing that gets thrown out by the defense. And because sexually based crimes are especially heinous, these kinds of defenses should be even more strictly limited, not 'broadened'.
Satori, even if I'm wrong about everything else you posted here (altho' I have some serious doubts about that), I *know* I'm not wrong for mocking/challenging this you posted:
This kind of 'reasoning' is what civilized societies are answer to, to get beyond the exclusively primal, animalistic instincts that are indeed a part of us. And especially to deal with the perverted sexual abuse of children. Why else is it that societies that still allow for the sexual dealings with children are regarded as *less* civilized? (Like the fanatic Muslim societies for example. Aren't they the same ones who are so abusive and backwards in many other areas? Aren't they the same ones who hate our freedoms? But I digress)
Ok, so if you weren't making excuses for Doyle and child molesters in general, what would you call statements like
"It should be obvious to anyone that the evil he was committing was compulsive. It blinded him.",
"If he didn't see the potential harm he could do himself, did he see the real harm he might do to a child? I don't think he did.",
"The point is, the sex drive compels human beings to behave irrationally."
ie., how could expressions like that not be seen as excuse making? And I'm serious about this question too. (And if all you can do is come back with your typical ad hominem crap like "the more I reply to your mistakes, the longer your posts become.", I'm not interested, as it is an unprincipled dodge, and your posts are just as long.)
From what I can see, even taking into account the power of the sex drive and/or the perversion of it towards kids, the desire for swift and harsh punishment of the perps (what you mistake as 'lynch mob mentality') is needed. It is that kind of desire that has been largely ignored/downplayed for many a year until about 20-30 years ago when it started being really looked at from a psychological/sociological health point of view.
Does it need to be done smarter? Yes, but not with this mentality of "Well, he can't really help himself, as his perverted sex drive is so powerful".
You said "The obsession does not fear death or consequences." Maybe not, but the obsessor sure does. This is clearly evidenced when they see a loaded gun pointed straight at them by an enraged parent of their target. ... Talk about your quick cures!
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CoolWaters
Let's ride with this idea that pedophilia is about 'sex drive'.
First, let's remove the stigma. Let's no longer use terms such as 'pedophilia', 'sex drive', 'evil', 'perv', 'compulsion', etc. Let's just talk about this in non-inflammatory, non-derogatory terms.
Second, let's take several deep breaths and get beyond our revulsions at talking about minors in a sexual way.
Inhale deeply, exhale slowly. 10 times, folks.
Ready? OK...
On the " new bill in Alaska Legislature on sex offenders" thread Mo, in response to "Alaska ranks high among the states in sex crimes--
wonder why that is" says in her point #3:
Do you get what she is saying here?
She is saying that when child-protective laws are enforced upon a culture whose children are vastly more mature, more prepared, more likely to marry, breed, etc. at quite young ages, to enforce such laws regardless of the culture is violating the 'spirit of the law'...and inflating the numbers of 'abused' children in Native Alaskan populations.
This is a superb point.
It is a 'modern' idea that those under 18 are somehow asexual...or at least should be.
History clearly shows that sexuality in the pre-teen and teen years was expected and accepted for the vast majority of history.
Even us bible-thumpers don't have much of a leg to stand on when it comes to the asexuality of teens...for wasn't Mary, the mother of Jesus, a young teenager?
And there are still cultures today, as Mo has pointed out, where children are prepared to expect and accept their own sexuality.
So, could this possibly be where the problem lies? Could it be possible that it is normal for children to be seen as sexual beings?
On the surface of the question it's almost a "Duh!" answer, isn't it? I mean, seriously, children 'play doctor' as early as 3yo and they are known to begin masturbating at about the same age. 'Playing house' with a mommy and a daddy and a baby or two is common play among elementary school children. These things are expected and accepted even in the most up-tight cultures.
One could argue, "Yeah, but that's between children, not between adults and children."
Well, history also shows that marriages between vastly older men and young, often pre-teen, girls was expected and accepted for the vast majority of history.
Even today in mainstream America it is accepted under the law. Many 'age of consent' laws allow that a 12yo girl has arrived at the 'age of consent'. (Kansas changed that age to 16 just a couple or so years ago.)
Rape laws concerning minors follow the 'age of consent' laws pretty closely.
In fact, society in general expects and accepts the sexuality of children from puberty on.
And doesn't society in general really accept that children, regardless of age, are sexual beings?
Of course.
Why else would gender identity be such an issue? Why else do we dress our baby girls in pink and ribbons and our baby boys in blue and baseball caps?
We want our children from birth to be 'real boys' or 'real girls'.
There's only one honest reason to so exaggeratedly define gender identity: procreation.
And procreation is about sexuality. Plain and simple.
I don't think that anybody would argue otherwise.
I certainly don't.
So now comes the hard question...
What is wrong with Grandpa or Uncle or Grandma or Auntie or the good friend of the family..or even the kind neighbor or school teacher...being sexual with our children?
Before I answer this question I am going to share two personal experiences of mine.
WARNING! What follows could be triggering and/or 'disgusting/offensive'.
When I was growing up our back fence was on the property line between my folk's property and a neighbor's property. The two back yards were separated by the fence.
Well, that neighbor was a nudist.
It was common for him to run around his back yard completely naked.
Of course, his back yard was presumably very private. His back fence was a 6' tall wooden privacy fence. Our back fence line and his other neighbor's side fence line were made private with very thick, very tall (about 5') hedge bushes.
But don't we all know about kids? Put up something to keep them out, they're gonna find a way in. Tell them not to look...they're gonna look for sure.
And me, my brother and my sister, ages just turned 5, almost 3 and almost 2 the first time...we scrambled our way under those hedge bushes and we looked.
This went on for years.
We were not scared or offended. We did not feel abused or in any other way damaged.
In fact, we giggled a whole lot and really enjoyed it when he came over and talked to us. We really liked this guy. He was funny, did magic tricks, talked to us honestly and openly about the human body whenever we asked questions, even let us poke fun at him when he was doing yard work and got into some very funny looking positions.
:o
Yep. I said all that.
And here's another story from when I was growing up...
My grandpa (may he rest in peace) has always been my most favorite person in the whole wide world.
He understood me. He was a good, kind, gentle man. He turned my severe dyslexia into a gift by teaching me that I had 'magic eyes' and that I saw things the way they really were...everybody else was wrong. This was long before the word 'dyslexia' came into common vocabulary. He had no boys of his own, my brother was too young and too crippled as a child to do typical boy stuff, and I was a difficult tomboy. It fell on Grandpa's shoulders to 'handle' me because Grandpa was the only person in the world I was willing to behave for. He taught me how to work on cars, how to throw a baseball and a football, how to build things, how to comprehend mathematics and science, and all very wonderful things that I would have missed out on if I had behaved myself. One of the first books I remember reading besides the 'Dick and Jane' books was Grandpa's Handbook of Chemistry and Physics. I was in the 3rd grade.
As you can see, me and Grandpa were buddies like no other buddies in the whole wide world.
One other thing Grandpa introduced me to was sexual love.
There was never any penetration, never any force, never any shame, never any blame, never any threats.
In fact, Grandpa didn't even say anything like, "This is our secret," or "You have to keep this secret". There was never any conversation at all...before, during or after these times.
It was just one other thing me and Grandpa did together.
And I loved him just as much, if not more.
:o
Yep. I said all that.
So, back to the question...
What is wrong with Grandpa or Uncle or Grandma or Auntie or the good friend of the family..or even the kind neighbor or school teacher...being sexual with our children?
I'm not going to answer this question because, 1)It is not for me to determine, and 2)It is fallacious to the topic of this thread.
Because the topic of this thread is not about human sexuality.
The topic of this thread is about a person who exerted violence and control not for sexual gratification, but for the thrill of exerting violence and control.
If anyone doesn't get this, if anyone cannot differentiate between human sexuality and violence and control...
Well...there's a tell-tale sign...of something...if I ever saw one...
IMO.
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GarthP2000
Coolwaters,
Thank you for your well-thought out (and non-insulting) response. You took the time to really (if you'll pardon the oft used term here
) 'broaden our perspectives' by means of a detailed POV that has us think.
I must admit that I would have reservations about a few of the things that some of the folks you describe did, but that's just me. Maybe its the 'ewww' factor, maybe something else. And perhaps its a result of what/how a lot of our society treats sex and sexuality. The homosexuality issue is a classic example of this.
But I do see that any form of sexuality, when coupled with unwanted force and control or when the recipient isn't ready for it, abuses invariably follow, as you have shown.
Thanks again for an enlightening post. :)
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CoolWaters
Garth...thank you.
It took me 4 hours to write that post.
If anyone looks back through my posts concerning such things, one can see a 'waffling' of my thoughts, my feelings concerning such things that I experienced. In fact, it wasn't too very long ago...weeks only...when I posted that I didn't know if I was ever going to be anything but broken and screwed up concerning sexuality.
Threads like this one and the others that handle the topics found in this thread have helped me look at my own reality...have helped me separate out what I think and feel from what I've been told I should think and feel...have helped me realize that I do know the difference between my sexuality and the violence and control perpetrated against me...have helped me to see that I do not live in a fairy tale mentality.
Even though it's always hard, always infuriating, always a slap in the face to involve myself in such threads, it's also been quite purging, certainly ennobling, and always good for my soul.
My purpose for participating in such threads has been to help others find these things for their lives.
Little did I know it was going to help me.
:)
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Abigail
1) I have no disagreement with the concept that it is a sickness, be it via compulsion/control/whatever. Likewise, I would say serial killers committ their crimes due to a sickness as well. So do we feel sorry for the serial killers? Do we unleash them upon society to kill again? Most drug dealers (even the small time ones) get longer sentences than many pedophiles!
In any case, our society - our psychiatrists and psychologists - have no idea how to cure this sickness, if it can be cured. Statistics bear that out. So, the only way to protect our chidren is to educate them and to lock these sick people up and throw away the key.
2) Having been the "victim" of one of these sick people, I do not believe for one minute it is about sex drive at all. It is about power and control.
"Violence is about control. Control is about domination. Domination is about mating and procreation. Procreation is about sex"
Yes, I think violence is often about control and control about domination. However, I don't buy into domination being about mating and procreation, and ultimately sex. Having been in a healthy sexual relationship with a healthy man, without all the control issues that existed in my previous relationship - there is a world of difference. And that difference is manifested in EVERY aspect of the relationship.
3) "We need to recognize that the sexual drive is cyclical, and that the predator might be reached at it's low end. We need to make use of our knowledge, to exploit what we know"
I likewise don't buy that it is cyclical. Again, because I have been on the receiving end and there was no cycle to it - at least not one that was obvious - and believe me I learned early on to watch for patterns and cycles in order to try and avoid other abusive behaviors. But for the sexual ones - there was no pattern, no warning signs, and no discernable cycle. Perhaps, because as I stated above, this isn't about sex drive - it is about control.
3) My statement regarding empathy was in response to the following:
"Brian Doyle's life is over. His humiliation is probably worse than death (to him). He is a leper, a pariah, a piece of filth in the eyes of everyone he ever cared about. His career is finished. His future is prison, possibly resulting in his own murder, and a life of abject shame. Look what it's cost him. You think he didn't know it could happen?"
Given our judicial system's sentencing history, it is very possible - particularly for someone who can afford a good attorney - that this guy will be unleashed upon us again in the not too distant future. No, I have no pity for him - I'm sorry but I can't bring myself to feel that for him. If that somehow makes me less intelligent and more prone to "mob mentality" so be it.
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excathedra
i have no pity whatsoever
there was a government person in our area (i went to high school with him, my sister dated him) and he was caught in an internet sting operation. he went to meet a lady and her 10 year old daughter for something called "fam fun" or something like that, meaning family sex.
when he got there with all his fun paraphernalia, he was met by the cops
i don't know even know what to say, words fail me, that he would do this, and think that a mom would come and bring her little girl
anyway, i don't even know if he's doing "time." last i heard, in the paper, he got some kind of counseling and his young adult children are supporting him. his wife might even be. i know his mom put up his bail money.
oh god help me - well him really, not me
**
anyway, there might be something deeply wrong with me that i loved and love my uncle. i just don't know what to say
for some reason, i can tell you how bad and wrong wierwille was
why in god's name do i think it would have been very sad for my uncle to have been put to death or locked up? i think i really loved him
anyway, this is just me thinking out loud. please allow me. but i am learning from this thread an others
control over children...... what a sick sad thing..... especially when done with kindness
i can't think of much worse
thank you all for your thoughts
i agree about crimes being sickness in reference to serial killers. why don't we try to fix them? because they are not fixable. so have i answered my own difficult question?
crapola
for me it's a tough discussion
i think i would die before taking advantage of an innocent child. so maybe......
i did talk to him at his coffin and just begged him to tell me why he would destroy me
he didn't answer
and as far as beautiful lovemaking which abi kind of mentioned. that sounds great and right
Edited by excathedraLink to comment
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excathedra
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excathedra
reading this article, i think i understand more what you are pointing out, dear cw
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ChattyKathy
Excath, I'd like to talk to you but first I need to address something to others as well.
I'm not saying unnatural drives turn us into people that would cause media attention like this. I'm saying it can be the catalyst and if you have deficiency in other areas of your life it can set a firm foundation on which to build no good.
When I spoke of Satori I did because I understand what he is saying. He too wants them out of the way of our children and is trying to find a way to fix the problem at the stem rather than just terminate the person that has given over. To what I can't know for myself, and yet I could be one who would be terminated if I ever chose. You would be saying oh yes don't you remember that chatty one and her history and look were she ended. She must have been worse than we thought at moments (I'll give ya a few
) to have become insane and destructive. Too bad someone couldn't have helped her see her way out. Some of you have let me know it's obvious I'm working my way out and have gone quite a stretch since first I came to hang with you here. I haven't found my way out alone though.
Nor would I have ever hurt a child. I just can't comprehend it because my mind seems to have an aversion to it and stops any such horrible considerations. How could I or excath or the others who have come forward with their stories ever hurt another child when we know what it did to us! It is not sound thinking is it?
I didn't always have to do it alone. I've had someone that I've screamed and cried at and thought I even hated at times because of the intensity in which we chose to help me. You can't do it alone. That is what I understand as part of what Satori is saying. Find a way to help fix them.
Excath, I'll let this sit a moment and address you in a shorter post dear one.
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excathedra
do good people molest ?
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ChattyKathy
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excathedra
my dad was VIOLENT, my uncle was kind
veepee tried the same sheet
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ChattyKathy
My dad was absent while with me. My grandpa was kind.
Um, well anyway...
This is freaky :blink:
I'd prefer another game of common, how about you?
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excathedra
i think what is tough is how difficult it is to hate a savior
i might wrap this up. i really don't like exposing this much to this cult ;)
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ChattyKathy
We have some difference there in regards to the savior, but then I have difficulty thinking of hate from you.
Yeah, we do have our own cool cult around here don't we?
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excathedra
i was not referring to jesus christ
i was referring to a savior from my childhood
who then hurt me
and then once again veepee
trying to clarify..... when you need to be rescued and someone does it..... then introduces you to..... well you understand.... it's a rescue in kindness (so it seems) but it's not kind at all, is it ?
i don't know if i like this place as much as you do :) but i'm an addict obviously
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ChattyKathy
Thank you, that makes more sence or maybe I just wanted it to be that way also. :)
See that's the thing excath, its when our trust was so destroyed when we wanted to trust. Sick people destroy other people. Not mentally healthy ones.
I've found such answers because I came here so I'm bound. I've tried to leave before. :unsure:
I always find my way back. :)
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excathedra
oh i'm just a sh it because pawtucket didn't honor the votes on how long you could edit your posts :);):);)
---
i have so much to say but don't feel like it
when you look up to people, it can be very very damaging, if they are not trustworthy
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