Ask a social worker or psychologist and they will tell you, even children who are horribly abused still love their parents. Of course you don't want those you loved and trusted locked up, regardless of what they did.
In Michigan, if a woman is abused by her spouse and reports it to the police, charges are pressed against the spouse by "the people" not the woman. In other words, the spouse is charged regardless of whether or not the woman presses charges. Why? Because she loves her husband and is not likely to press charges. She will often stay until he kills her or comes close to it. She can't leave, because he will track her down and beat her. She can't prosecute, because she loves him.
Far worse is the crime perpetrated by a loved one, than the crime perpetrated by a stranger. It is also the more common. Although access to chat rooms may change that.
I think there are warning signs and symptoms. Perhaps not always, but often. The trouble is, we are trained not just by TWI, but by society, not to think evil. Innocent until proven guilty. And often the signs are very subtle. A creepy feeling, an intuition, a hunch. Be we aren't taught to trust those subtle things.
Don't misunderstand me, in the legal system I fully believe in innocent until proven guilty. But in my personal life, I have learned to trust my gut. I would much rather wrongfully offend an uncle, cousin, brother, in an attempt to protect my child than, to allow my child to be hurt because I was distrustful of my instincts or worried about someone else's feelings.
The chat rooms were mentioned... these do seem to make it easier for the perpetrators... since this is really the only one I've ever been to, don't they post in BIG BOLD LETTERS that regardless of your screen name, they know who you are (or at least the account information from your ISP) and that they are keeping a record of it? If they don't, why wouldn't they? I don't know if these measures would've stopped...
In the middle of typing this I started thinking about how Doyle (in particular) didn't seem to care that his info was known... and then I remembered that on that website I posted about, the guys were upfront about their ages and didn't seem to care... And they'd really have to be seriously dumb not to know that there are people out there posing as young boys and girls just for the express purpose of catching them...
So I don't know... I'm trying to think how to take away the chat room vehicle from them... but it's the internet... couldn't there be some sort of software, one of those spider things, that could check for chats between older ages and younger ages?
Just trying to think of some way to close the chat room door since it seems to be so wide open.
This popular doctrine that rape is not about sex is eventually going to be recognized as feminist nonsense. Radical feminists believe that ALL sex is rape. Therefore all sex is about control and violence, to hear them tell it.
Rape is sex. Of course it isn't "healthy," or "normal." Nobody is saying it is. But it IS sexually violent aggression, and the rapist is looking for sexual gratification, along with the accompanying desire to possess and wound his victims. To say all rape begins with one single motive is to objectify rapists, which is to misunderstand them.
Now Garth persists in claiming that any such understanding represents conciliation, compromise, accommodation of these criminals. But he hasn't understood a thing I've said yet, though he is as persistent as a gnat. He takes a statement here, a statement there, always out of context, and pretends to be a part of the debate.
It's true, I believe none of us are fully responsible for our actions all the time, and that we are sometimes compelled by forces (addictive behaviors) which overwhelm us, sometimes for just moments, other times for much longer. Some of those compulsions are harmless, others are tragic in cruelty and consequences.
There are times when we ALL do have control, and times when we don't, when it's too late. The drunk has control BEFORE he takes the first drink. One taste and it's all over. A blur of drinking follows and he's in the car, half-conscious, on his way to killing a family of five in the oncoming minivan. I think even (potential) rapists and pedophiles can "lead themselves not into temptation but deliver themselves from evil." They need some kind of support, from a society which loathes to give it.
It wouldn't take much. They are told, Turn away now, or face dire and certain consequences later. Turn away now and there will be help. Fail to turn away and we know it will consume you, and be assured the blood will be on your hands alone.
And we learn as much as we can. And we make that help available. And we make those consequences real.
This popular doctrine that rape is not about sex is eventually going to be recognized as feminist nonsense. Radical feminists believe that ALL sex is rape. Therefore all sex is about control and violence, to hear them tell it.
Now I'm not arguing here... and I have to admit that I haven't really hung out with any radical feminists... but "ALL sex is rape"??? So they (the radical feminists) don't have ANY sex at all? I don't know man... sounds a little far fetched to me...
Well... I'm sure that there are some groups out there that believe/propound just about any viewpoint... but IMO that doesn't necessarily lend any validity to their point(s)...
This popular doctrine that rape is not about sex is eventually going to be recognized as feminist nonsense.
The understanding that rape is not about sex is neither popular nor a doctrine. Most people think like you do...which is exactly why the problem gets worse instead of better.
Radical feminists believe that ALL sex is rape.
Document this...prove what you're saying. Otherwise you're writing this to manipulate. Go figure.
Therefore all sex is about control and violence, to hear them tell it.
You are the one who said that all sex is about control and violence. You said it right here in this thread. I can go find the exact quote for you...unless you've now edited it out...
Rape is sex.
:wacko: If a person uses a gun to murder is it 'hunting' in your mind? Or if a person uses a knife to murder is it 'cooking' in your mind?
Of course it isn't "healthy," or "normal." Nobody is saying it is. But it IS sexually violent aggression, and the rapist is looking for sexual gratification, along with the accompanying desire to possess and wound his victims. To say all rape begins with one single motive is to objectify rapists, which is to misunderstand them.
Are you a qualified, licensed mental health professional working with rapists? You put forth a whole lot of 'knowledge' about the motives and 'understanding' of rapists...which is why I ask what qualifies this 'knowledge' and 'understanding' of yours.
I think even (potential) rapists and pedophiles can "lead themselves not into temptation but deliver themselves from evil." They need some kind of support, from a society which loathes to give it.
Here's another reason why I question your 'knowledge' and 'understanding'. All throughout this thread (and others) it's been discussed, rehashed and pointed out that there has been little, if any, success with any attempt to provide help and support. Even you have admitted this. Yet you blather on about how mean society is to these poor wittle horny toads.
It wouldn't take much. They are told, Turn away now, or face dire and certain consequences later. Turn away now and there will be help. Fail to turn away and we know it will consume you, and be assured the blood will be on your hands alone.
Again, your 'knowledge' and 'understanding' shows great lack.
It's been said over and over and over again...on this thread and all of the other threads on this board concerning this topic...that these perpetrators get chance after chance after chance before they're ever sentenced to any jail time.
"Violence is about control. Control is about domination. Domination is about mating and procreation. Procreation is about sex.
No matter how tepid and tame it may be portrayed to be in the American middle-class experience, sex is at the root of most controlling and violent behavior in the world, and that includes the animal kingdom as well as the human. "
and
"This popular doctrine that rape is not about sex is eventually going to be recognized as feminist nonsense. Radical feminists believe that ALL sex is rape. Therefore all sex is about control and violence, to hear them tell it."
I for one have no idea what "radical feminists" believe, nor do I see the relevence of it to this topic. Most people who fall into a "radical" category have little credibility anyway.
However, I wanted to go back to your prior statement about sex being the root of most controlling and violent behavior. As I said earlier, I disagree. I believe the root of most violent and controlling behavior is a feeling of a lack of control in ones own life. In other words, one seeks to control those around them when one feels out of control within themself.
Rape is about control and violence, but it is sexual control and it is sexual violence. It is so blatantly obvious that people who prefer this modern myth must go to great lengths to ignore the sexual component.
As for the "all sex is rape" idea, it's out there Tom. No lie. I only introduced it here to point out that there is a contingent of feminists who'd like nothing better than to define all male-female sex as assault and battery. It's probably a lesbian faction, and only a small but (vocal) group within the lesbian population. I know that not all lesbians believe that, but some do. I've met one or two. They were friends of mine, actually, but they held that view and nothing could sway them. Their arguments were never about their personal preferences. They always appealed to some misappropriated higher principle, such as claiming that a female's physical sanctity was violated by the very act. They were great women though, and we had many enjoyable debates. I miss their company. There were a lotta laughs, when the topic was less serious.
Also, if you do a Google on the term, "all sex is rape" you'll find a lot more.
Yeah, it's pretty twisted, but it's out there. It's not Satori's imagination - this has been around at least since the 60's.
I would assume, however, that when Satori says, "rape is sex," he would probably more likely mean that it is "intercourse" - it is the physical act. I believe in our culture that when one talks about "sex" it's more with the meaning of something romantic, sexy, etc. - not the physical act of penetration defined as intercourse, or the violent, unwanted act of penetration called rape. Not to be straining at gnats here - this is just how I think our society has defined the terms and how it may better communicate...
I've things to say but no time to do it and if I hurry I'll not make sense. But just a couple things then I must leave again.
It is when it stops raping our minds excath that we can begin to rest from it all. I can't know what you feel, I can guess based on your words and actions at times, but I can't know what you feel. Even with all we've had in common.
It was a crime against us excath but my goal is not to allow it to continue to be. And I've gained considerable ground in the past two years or so.
My prayer is that all of us who have these memories can be relieved of them more and more each day.
Chas...that site...well...it reads like the fragmented thoughts of the drunken, the stoned or the demented...or all of the above...or something that's just not right.
:wacko:
I did a Yahoo! search (I've never really acclimated to Google) for "all sex is rape"...in quotes just like I'm writing it here...and came up with "about 1400" results. Didn't go much past the first couple of sites on page 2. Most of what I saw on page 1 was arguments over what was really meant when people have said "all sex is rape".
*********************
Having been raped in nearly every way, over and over for years on end...and having had several accumulated years (meaning all of the instances I can remember added together) of loving sexual relationships...well, I'm pretty darned sure what rape is and is not.
At least for me.
Which may be the 'sticking point' in this discussion.
Defining sexuality for me and defining rape for me seems to be generally acceptable in this discussion.
However, when I or anyone else begins to define sexuality and/or rape in general in this discussion, a clamor (albeit a small one...maybe) seems to go up.
From my experiences, my learning and my understanding, when rape happens, it can and often does happen in every aspect of being.
Forced sexual intercourse is but one part of the definition of rape...even according to dictionaries.
What twi has done and still does to so many people is rape of mind, spirit and personality. For far too many, this resulted in the rape of body. TWI's rape of mind, spirit and personality was and is the first act of rape.
Likewise, what a pedophile does as his/her first act of rape is to rape the mind, spirit and personality of his/her victim(s).
In either instance, the act of rape of the body is not always the result.
In either instance, the first act of rape is the damaging act...the act that scars for life...the act that is irrevocable...the act that perpetuates itself regardless of the presence of an actual rapist.
IMO...based upon my experiences, my learning and my understanding.
Which is why I say that rape is not about sex, but about control and violence.
This is from doctrinal and I've not even read the thread but just clicked on the last post because I saw the title and thought hmmm, that just may be related. ***Moderators I beseech thee this is a perfect example of how having this forum closer to the top would benefit the ones reading from the outside who don't have favorite places to hang out and such. Thank you kindly for your consideration again. :)
One thing I'd keep in mind, Danny, is that much of what is set up here in this physical plane of existence is a figure, a shadow of what is to come for God's people.
We can see that the marriage relationship is but a shadow of our relationship to God. Have you pondered the relationship in light of St. Paul's exposition in Eph 5:21ff, particularly in light of Rev 19? And then meld in the Song of Songs. The deuterocanoncial book "Wisdom of Solomon" is also tremendously rich in this regard.
Looking at this in the light of sexuality, the intense physical pleasure received from sex is the "reward" feeling from the total 'giving' of one's self to his partner. The result of the complete physical and spiritual union between the two.
There is an inseparable connection between the physical and the spiritual in this light.
Actions taken to manifest this physical 'reward' feeling without the corresponding spiritual connection become a dangerous counterfeit. Rather than a "giving," it becomes a "taking."
That is the reason why adultery is considered such a grievous sin in scripture. Seeking after 'taking' rather than 'giving' -- I am not getting what I want, so I'll go elsewhere to get it.
(And, believe it or not, this is not OFF TOPIC, that is why I am so opposed to the Word-Faith theology, including that which is taught by twi...)
Why was it perfect? Because it speaks of what sexual pleasure is intended to be as. It relates to this thread PERFECTLY and thus that is why I brought it. And thank you Mark for your post of which I assumed I was free to quote anywhere I chose within the walls of this place we hang in. However I'm not in love with your pic you posted in CK's thread. It yucked out my stomach to see the body, as that is for me still a difficult thing to imagine and your pic doesn't even come close to what it probably looked like for real.
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excathedra
awwwww this isn't goodbye forever, is it ?
love you hugs hugs hugs
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ChattyKathy
you're precious excath
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excathedra
thank you. YOU are precious. i'll see you around the cult.
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Abigail
Ask a social worker or psychologist and they will tell you, even children who are horribly abused still love their parents. Of course you don't want those you loved and trusted locked up, regardless of what they did.
In Michigan, if a woman is abused by her spouse and reports it to the police, charges are pressed against the spouse by "the people" not the woman. In other words, the spouse is charged regardless of whether or not the woman presses charges. Why? Because she loves her husband and is not likely to press charges. She will often stay until he kills her or comes close to it. She can't leave, because he will track her down and beat her. She can't prosecute, because she loves him.
Far worse is the crime perpetrated by a loved one, than the crime perpetrated by a stranger. It is also the more common. Although access to chat rooms may change that.
I think there are warning signs and symptoms. Perhaps not always, but often. The trouble is, we are trained not just by TWI, but by society, not to think evil. Innocent until proven guilty. And often the signs are very subtle. A creepy feeling, an intuition, a hunch. Be we aren't taught to trust those subtle things.
Don't misunderstand me, in the legal system I fully believe in innocent until proven guilty. But in my personal life, I have learned to trust my gut. I would much rather wrongfully offend an uncle, cousin, brother, in an attempt to protect my child than, to allow my child to be hurt because I was distrustful of my instincts or worried about someone else's feelings.
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ChattyKathy
Abi, I was just leaving for the evening and caught you post. Excellent! And you nailed a critical point in your closing. Thank you!
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Tom Strange
The chat rooms were mentioned... these do seem to make it easier for the perpetrators... since this is really the only one I've ever been to, don't they post in BIG BOLD LETTERS that regardless of your screen name, they know who you are (or at least the account information from your ISP) and that they are keeping a record of it? If they don't, why wouldn't they? I don't know if these measures would've stopped...
In the middle of typing this I started thinking about how Doyle (in particular) didn't seem to care that his info was known... and then I remembered that on that website I posted about, the guys were upfront about their ages and didn't seem to care... And they'd really have to be seriously dumb not to know that there are people out there posing as young boys and girls just for the express purpose of catching them...
So I don't know... I'm trying to think how to take away the chat room vehicle from them... but it's the internet... couldn't there be some sort of software, one of those spider things, that could check for chats between older ages and younger ages?
Just trying to think of some way to close the chat room door since it seems to be so wide open.
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excathedra
quite a number of years ago i had a gut feeling about "father" butler and my two youngest brothers.
i confronted and threatened him. he made me feel like the scum of the earth.
about 3 to 5 years ago they finally caught up with him. you know how those catholics move them around from parish to parish
one of my brothers came forward. the other one couldn't handle it
i had the letter i wrote to butler in the early 70's and his response letter written from his mom's home (not the rectory) saying how DARE i.....
it did no good
he was like 78 or 81 when they finally called his bluff
i won't even tell you about the damage to my little brothers
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Tom Strange
good question... how are we defining "good"? (I'm just trying to think this through)
I know I've heard of cases where folks who were "pillars of the community" were caught perpetrating.
Perhaps they're "good" but not completely sane... at least not in that area of their lives.
I guess then we have to get into a definition of "sane"... and then what is "sane" for this culture...
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satori001
This popular doctrine that rape is not about sex is eventually going to be recognized as feminist nonsense. Radical feminists believe that ALL sex is rape. Therefore all sex is about control and violence, to hear them tell it.
Rape is sex. Of course it isn't "healthy," or "normal." Nobody is saying it is. But it IS sexually violent aggression, and the rapist is looking for sexual gratification, along with the accompanying desire to possess and wound his victims. To say all rape begins with one single motive is to objectify rapists, which is to misunderstand them.
Now Garth persists in claiming that any such understanding represents conciliation, compromise, accommodation of these criminals. But he hasn't understood a thing I've said yet, though he is as persistent as a gnat. He takes a statement here, a statement there, always out of context, and pretends to be a part of the debate.
It's true, I believe none of us are fully responsible for our actions all the time, and that we are sometimes compelled by forces (addictive behaviors) which overwhelm us, sometimes for just moments, other times for much longer. Some of those compulsions are harmless, others are tragic in cruelty and consequences.
There are times when we ALL do have control, and times when we don't, when it's too late. The drunk has control BEFORE he takes the first drink. One taste and it's all over. A blur of drinking follows and he's in the car, half-conscious, on his way to killing a family of five in the oncoming minivan. I think even (potential) rapists and pedophiles can "lead themselves not into temptation but deliver themselves from evil." They need some kind of support, from a society which loathes to give it.
It wouldn't take much. They are told, Turn away now, or face dire and certain consequences later. Turn away now and there will be help. Fail to turn away and we know it will consume you, and be assured the blood will be on your hands alone.
And we learn as much as we can. And we make that help available. And we make those consequences real.
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Tom Strange
Now I'm not arguing here... and I have to admit that I haven't really hung out with any radical feminists... but "ALL sex is rape"??? So they (the radical feminists) don't have ANY sex at all? I don't know man... sounds a little far fetched to me...
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sirguessalot
mr strange...yes...there are some radically extreme feminist movements romping about in this world
and quite a variety of them, too
and giving some of the more balanced feminists a bad rap, of course
same could be said of just about any valid -ism though, it seems
the world has gone quite mad, it seems
and the madnesses themselves also seem to evolve
fasten your seat belts, i guess
:blink:
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Tom Strange
Well... I'm sure that there are some groups out there that believe/propound just about any viewpoint... but IMO that doesn't necessarily lend any validity to their point(s)...
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CoolWaters
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Abigail
"Violence is about control. Control is about domination. Domination is about mating and procreation. Procreation is about sex.
No matter how tepid and tame it may be portrayed to be in the American middle-class experience, sex is at the root of most controlling and violent behavior in the world, and that includes the animal kingdom as well as the human. "
and
"This popular doctrine that rape is not about sex is eventually going to be recognized as feminist nonsense. Radical feminists believe that ALL sex is rape. Therefore all sex is about control and violence, to hear them tell it."
I for one have no idea what "radical feminists" believe, nor do I see the relevence of it to this topic. Most people who fall into a "radical" category have little credibility anyway.
However, I wanted to go back to your prior statement about sex being the root of most controlling and violent behavior. As I said earlier, I disagree. I believe the root of most violent and controlling behavior is a feeling of a lack of control in ones own life. In other words, one seeks to control those around them when one feels out of control within themself.
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Tom Strange
A very salient point Abigail.
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satori001
I don't think the explanation for controlling behavior is quite that simple.
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satori001
Rape is about control and violence, but it is sexual control and it is sexual violence. It is so blatantly obvious that people who prefer this modern myth must go to great lengths to ignore the sexual component.
As for the "all sex is rape" idea, it's out there Tom. No lie. I only introduced it here to point out that there is a contingent of feminists who'd like nothing better than to define all male-female sex as assault and battery. It's probably a lesbian faction, and only a small but (vocal) group within the lesbian population. I know that not all lesbians believe that, but some do. I've met one or two. They were friends of mine, actually, but they held that view and nothing could sway them. Their arguments were never about their personal preferences. They always appealed to some misappropriated higher principle, such as claiming that a female's physical sanctity was violated by the very act. They were great women though, and we had many enjoyable debates. I miss their company. There were a lotta laughs, when the topic was less serious.
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ChasUFarley
Here's a link to one group that buys in to the "all sex is rape" theory:
http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/faq/allsexisrape.html
Also, if you do a Google on the term, "all sex is rape" you'll find a lot more.
Yeah, it's pretty twisted, but it's out there. It's not Satori's imagination - this has been around at least since the 60's.
I would assume, however, that when Satori says, "rape is sex," he would probably more likely mean that it is "intercourse" - it is the physical act. I believe in our culture that when one talks about "sex" it's more with the meaning of something romantic, sexy, etc. - not the physical act of penetration defined as intercourse, or the violent, unwanted act of penetration called rape. Not to be straining at gnats here - this is just how I think our society has defined the terms and how it may better communicate...
Peace.
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excathedra
do we agree that rape is an act of violence ?
i think we do agree. and i think it's a crime
hang on
when someone drugs someone or incapactates them in some way.... it might not be violent but it's definitely control
i don't think a "normal" person would want someone to have sex with them against their will, you know ?
and children ohmygod it's very very very horrible beyond words
no consent how utterly heartbreaking
rape can appear (to the victim) to be a loving caring act
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ChattyKathy
I've things to say but no time to do it and if I hurry I'll not make sense. But just a couple things then I must leave again.
It is when it stops raping our minds excath that we can begin to rest from it all. I can't know what you feel, I can guess based on your words and actions at times, but I can't know what you feel. Even with all we've had in common.
It was a crime against us excath but my goal is not to allow it to continue to be. And I've gained considerable ground in the past two years or so.
My prayer is that all of us who have these memories can be relieved of them more and more each day.
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CoolWaters
Chas...that site...well...it reads like the fragmented thoughts of the drunken, the stoned or the demented...or all of the above...or something that's just not right.
:wacko:
I did a Yahoo! search (I've never really acclimated to Google) for "all sex is rape"...in quotes just like I'm writing it here...and came up with "about 1400" results. Didn't go much past the first couple of sites on page 2. Most of what I saw on page 1 was arguments over what was really meant when people have said "all sex is rape".
*********************
Having been raped in nearly every way, over and over for years on end...and having had several accumulated years (meaning all of the instances I can remember added together) of loving sexual relationships...well, I'm pretty darned sure what rape is and is not.
At least for me.
Which may be the 'sticking point' in this discussion.
Defining sexuality for me and defining rape for me seems to be generally acceptable in this discussion.
However, when I or anyone else begins to define sexuality and/or rape in general in this discussion, a clamor (albeit a small one...maybe) seems to go up.
From my experiences, my learning and my understanding, when rape happens, it can and often does happen in every aspect of being.
Forced sexual intercourse is but one part of the definition of rape...even according to dictionaries.
What twi has done and still does to so many people is rape of mind, spirit and personality. For far too many, this resulted in the rape of body. TWI's rape of mind, spirit and personality was and is the first act of rape.
Likewise, what a pedophile does as his/her first act of rape is to rape the mind, spirit and personality of his/her victim(s).
In either instance, the act of rape of the body is not always the result.
In either instance, the first act of rape is the damaging act...the act that scars for life...the act that is irrevocable...the act that perpetuates itself regardless of the presence of an actual rapist.
IMO...based upon my experiences, my learning and my understanding.
Which is why I say that rape is not about sex, but about control and violence.
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ChattyKathy
This is from doctrinal and I've not even read the thread but just clicked on the last post because I saw the title and thought hmmm, that just may be related. ***Moderators I beseech thee this is a perfect example of how having this forum closer to the top would benefit the ones reading from the outside who don't have favorite places to hang out and such. Thank you kindly for your consideration again. :)
Why was it perfect? Because it speaks of what sexual pleasure is intended to be as. It relates to this thread PERFECTLY and thus that is why I brought it. And thank you Mark for your post of which I assumed I was free to quote anywhere I chose within the walls of this place we hang in. However I'm not in love with your pic you posted in CK's thread. It yucked out my stomach to see the body, as that is for me still a difficult thing to imagine and your pic doesn't even come close to what it probably looked like for real.
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Shellon
Seems this guy has a bad habit of this kind of behavior.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/04/07/homeland.arrest/index.html
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dmiller
Previous *bad habits*, and he ends up in Homeland Security. <_<
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