Folks feel what they feel. Your voice is welcomed - at least by me. When I get too over the top, you offer another side of the story and you make me say, "Hmmmmmmmm........."
Now, that's a good thing!
Please don't stop speaking up. just remember that old military addage,
"You knew the job was dangerous when you took it."
Aw Johnny, just because somebody disagrees with you on some points, doesn't mean your voice isn't appreciated here. :wub: I love what you contribute, if it makes any difference. I mean that.
Goey, I think an interesting point to consider is: What if VPW was "called to the ministry?" I haven't yet decided if I think that or not, the jury is still out for me. But it sure is an interesting point to consider.....Sorta changes the perspective some. I have no problem, personally, with the idea that the Lord Jesus would "call" somebody who is a pretty bad sinner. Seems it's been done a time or two before.
I don't have a problem with a sinner being called either. God can call whoever he wants. Paul is probably our best example. However, after his calling Paul did not continue his ways that were contrary to God - He repented and led a decent life as it is expected of those who would minister to the Church.
Best I can tell tell though we have no examples in the Bible of men that were "called" of God and continued in their sin or "waxed worse" and still retained their minstry/calling with God's blessing. Yet we do have examples of men like Saul and Eli to draw from. How did God deal with them?
So If I consider that VPW was called (which I have) , then I would have to conclude that he was "retired" of his calling pretty early - when he first used his calling and position of trust to sexually exploit a precious child of God.
I would also have to wonder why God would call a man, knowing he would abuse that calling do the things that VPW did repeatedly and unrepentantly *after* he was called. I see no examples of that in the Bible either. I know that is an argument from silence, but I do think it is worthy of consideration.
I would also have to wonder why God would call a man, knowing he would abuse that calling do the things that VPW did repeatedly and unrepentantly *after* he was called. I see no examples of that in the Bible either. I know that is an argument from silence, but I do think it is worthy of consideration.
"Class -- sometimes ya gotta read what the Word doesn't say."
And I think Garths' point about "a thief giving directions to the airport, is still a thief.." is pretty lame as well.
If I want and NEED directions to the airport and no-one else is around to give me directions, I'll gladly take the advice.
In fact I believe that if it was a need to really know the right directions to the 'airport', God would work within the whole situation to bring me to that thief !!
Cause all I want are the 'directions', I don't want the thiefs' lifestyle nor his baggage, just the directions !!
Hey GS'ers, w/o the Allans, Oldies, JohnIams, Ex10's, White Doves, Sudosuda's, Johnny Lingos and yes, even the Mikes, you'd all end up bitter old prunes by midnight, so gives us a break WILL YA. !!
Well, at the risk of getting thrown in the doctrinal dungeon......
What about all those wicked kings of Israel? who led Israel into idolatry? and caused them to sin in the worst way possible? Judas? Surely God knew that they would end up pretty badly, too? Just thinking out loud....
I don't think that God needs to do evil, before good can happen. But......how to explain it? Free will? Choice? Men choose evil over good all the time. And innocent people pay for it. I don't think that's God's intention, yet it happens.
Oh geeze, Allan. I don't feel like I need a "break." Most folks here are quite kind and considerate, and don't mind the occasional stupid attack. My experience here is that most folks are quick to forgive. I just don't believe in insulting and belittling posters for their feelings and opinions. Argue, yes, sometimes. Get into heated discussions? Most definitely. Truth be told, in the years I've been hanging around the joint, I have felt insulted, unappreciated, belittled at times. But I guess I just decided to get over myself, and realize that MY OPINION is not more RIGHT than anybody elses. Sorry if I sound preachy. I don't mean to lecture you in partcular. I just have a big mouth sometimes.
And I think Garths' point about "a thief giving directions to the airport, is still a thief.." is pretty lame as well. If I want and NEED directions to the airport and no-one else is around to give me directions, I'll gladly take the advice. In fact I believe that if it was a need to really know the right directions to the 'airport', God would work within the whole situation to bring me to that thief !! Cause all I want are the 'directions', I don't want the thiefs' lifestyle nor his baggage, just the directions !!
... and then you get to the airport and find out that your wallet has been 'borrowed', ie., stolen by the thief. For a lot of us, that is indeed what happened, and many of us didn't even 'make it to the airport'.
Face it, pal. If you're looking for those to 'look the other way' when it comes to VeePee, (of course under the guise of "forgiveness"), we know better than to buy that *scam*. Ie., No Sale!
... I would also have to wonder why God would call a man, knowing he would abuse that calling do the things that VPW did repeatedly and unrepentantly *after* he was called. ...
As I see it, because Wierwille also did good things with the knowledge he learned, and folks needed and needing to hear the Word of God as set forth by Dr. Wierwille. Can't think of a reason other than that... not because of Wierwille's goodness, but has to be God's grace, and VP answering the call.
I believe folks need to hear these things still even today ... as long as false doctrine is still being taught and folks are still walking in darkness. Let it be taught and let folks decide if they agree with it, just like we did.
Why didn't God find somebody else who walked circumspectly or more circumspectly? He did. As we know, lots of the stuff VP taught was not original, so God found folks already, but I didn't hear the Word from those folks, I heard it through Dr.'s ministry and others affiliated with twi. So I am loathe to kick him or them in the teeth and slap God in the face because of the sins of Wierwille and others. God will deal with the judgment of those sins.
I came from a background where the Word was virtually non existent, hacked to pieces to have any real meaning for me. The religion of my youth. I wore a scapula so Mary would pray for me to help me be blessed, maybe. I can't tell you how thankful I am to be rescued from that moronic garbage.
But God says his Word will accomplish that which He pleases and shall prosper in the thing whereto He sent it.
Hey GS'ers, w/o the Allans, Oldies, JohnIams, Ex10's, White Doves, Sudosuda's, Johnny Lingos and yes, even the Mikes, you'd all end up bitter old prunes by midnight, so gives us a break WILL YA. !!
Has everyone forgotten that vee pee's evil deeds started way before PFAL? He was a liar from the beginning and the reason he started his own shindig was because he was caught screwing a woman in the church where he was BEFORE starting TWI?
:unsure:
The guy got married and lied about it. The guy was a troublemaker as a kid if sources from NK are to be believed....WordWolf clearly documented all this stuff in his historical threads.....
vee pee's evil and deception didn't start with TWI - TWI just gave him more power to do so and less accountability for it.
We've gone over this ground so many times before that you'd think it would finally sink in, to mix a metaphor.
To boil it down to the fundament:
1) PFAL may have been the conduit for many people's lives to be changed for the better, but that in no way mitigates Wierwille's abuses.
2) VPW's sexual sins should not automatically invalidate PFAL, but a book is only as credible as the integrity of the author. Demonstrable plagiarism destroys his credibility as a teacher/researcher/author. The material may or may not be true, but Wierwille cannot be considered an ethical authority on the material. Therefore, unless it can be independently verified, PFAL remains suspect. It is by no means God-breathed--it fails its own criteria for that.
Johnny Lingo, does it make a difference that the gentlemen that you compaired vpw to were old testiment natural men? That they didn`t have the benefit of in spirit action to guide them?
Why is it that you had the strength and integrety to turn the offers of sex down?
What is the difference between you and vpw?
I think that you are a fine man of character and integrety....I think that it is the spirit of God that rules within you....I think that you are defending a man who thought that his research skills and knowldege would get him there.....His course...his beliefs...instead made it ok that his personal satisfaction and sating of his lusts were of greater importance than the destruction of our sisters and brothers lives.
Does THIS sound like the actions of a man of the spirit? A genuine minister?
I think that you are too fine a man to be defending this filth.
rascal, you said to Johnny: "I think that you are too fine a man to be defending this filth."
Excuse me for butting in, but I just don't see where Johnny is "defending" VP. He doesn't have the "I don't care what VP did wrong, he still taught me the word," attitude at all. As far as I can see, he has been very upfront with what he thinks and what his experiences have been.
ex 10 ...excuse me, but JL appears to be the one furious with folks who refuse to give vpw respect.
I am curious ...questioning him as to the point he tried to make....I am trying to understand the because old testiment natural men sinned and were still worthey of praise....how that can figure with a man supposedly born again and of the spirit is held to the same standard....
People now have to choices...to live as a person of flesh...or a person of spirit.....
Johnny wants us to believe that vpw was a spiritual man ...though by every measuring stick given in the scripture....vpw`s actions brand him as of th eflesh....
.
I think that it is a very important point in understanding WHY vpw was able to teach the scriptures one miniute and visciously destroy at will any whom mildly displeased him the next .......shoot the bible says that it is easy even for the evil folks to be nice to people they like....
Why is it that OTHER Christians at the new birth are instantly delivered from alcoholism, from rage, from lying, from lust???
Why is it that at the new birth some people are affected in s deep life impacting way that makes actyions of the flesh abhorrant to them and not vpw?
I personally believe that EVEN with his vast knowledge....he didn`t *get it*
VPW, his actions, his cold calloused betrayal which I peronally find to be completely repulsive and contemptible.....and as such unworthey of respect in any form due to the havock he wreaked in my beloved brothers and sisters.... pure and simple....
JL, as an upstanding christian man of integrety of decency, of morality and of good character (no I am not being fascitious, I really mean this) wants to defend vp in the fact that he desires us to give him credit which is niether earned or due vpw as a false prophet and ravening wolf.
I LIKE Johnny L, I RESPECT Johnny L, I believe Johnny L to be a a decent man .... but simply see him as honoring filth with his respect and that he appears to be angry with us for not sharing his pov....shrug.
This is a discussion as to why I feel that vpw is unworthey of respect in any shape or form...Johnny L wants to list why he believes he is....I have no problem with that....but it is Johnny who seems to be mad here.
JohnnyL, I guess that if I want to endeavor to be a decent Christian person myself... That even if right, if in trying to make my point, I have offended you who are brother, I am in truth wrong.
This isn`t about arguing or slandering or attacking who is right or wrong for me.....but about trying to makes sense and reconcile the God that I want to know and understand verses the pain and devistaion experienced at his supposed ministers hands.
Sometimes in wrestling with my own understanding, I inadvertantly offend others...my apologies.
I'm on the fence here. I see Jonny's point. I see rascal's point. I just don't see why a man that had stirred so much angst durng his life is still able to do so from beyond the grave.
Jonny L is a decent guy! Rascal - you're a decent gal. The two of you (along with a host of others) disagree about VPW.
Yea....and.....
The problem is not the divergence of opinions. As I see it, it is how we treat each other as we talk of out our differing points of view.
If you believe that VPW was of the devil - well then why give him a moment of your thought. Isn't that allowing him some place in your life that shouldn't belong to him?
If you believe that VPW was a good man gone bad. Then you still are stuck with the notion that his bad actions hurt many. That isn't easy to deal with on anyone's part. Still, make sure that you in turn don't hurt others by defending your opinion.
Jonny and rascal - I am not singling you out. You're just the two last names in disagreement in this thread. (Actually I'm thinking of others here more than you two.)
The problem is universal here at GSC. I wish we could all get along and agree to disagree sometimes.....
This isn't my best post - I can't seem to find the words that I know should be said...
Dooj, please don`t worry....it isn`t so much about arguing about who is right or wrong, it is about questioning, exploring, understanding where/how/why things went wrong....it is about understanding and reconciling the past in order to avoid being vulnerable in the future.
It is about growth and learning, about moving on ...
Some times some of us (I am speaking of myself here) need conflicting perspectives to re evaluate our ideas to begin to climb out of those well worn ruts.....sometimes it is of greater imprtance than simply being nice and getting along to the individual.
Please don`t be distressed....it isn`t personal.
I LIKE Johnny ...else I wouldn`t value his imputs or thoughts...I would just put him on ignore :)
Try not to see it as arguing or fighting....but a quest to understand....at least on my part.
Edited to add....thank you btw for the compliment :)
Listen Rascal, I want to thank you for the compliments. And believe me, that incident I just shared was way hard to deal with. But, I made it thank God. But I want you to know that I am not defending VPW's actions. I am simply stating that I believe that he went from having a good motive initially to having a bad motive and horrible actions as his ministry progressed. I simply believe that he started out trying to help people, but ended up being tempted into destructive sin as he gained momentum. On this we disagree. Simple
I believe, and this is documentable, that a person can be born again, have holy spirit, but still walk according to the flesh. This is why we are to be "spiritually minded", for; "To be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is Life and Peace." This, by logical deduction tells me that, I, as a spirit filled Christian, can be "carnally minded" which has it's accompanying negative consequences. For, why would we be told to be spiritually minded if it were not possible for us to not be spiritually minded? It also means that if I am carnally minded, and am under the tuteledge of one who is carnally minded (VPW in this case), that I too will have negative consequences, if I stop being spiritually minded enough to see what is really going on. We were all in the same boat and we all rowed toward the rapids and toward the falls. Some bailed out in the rapids and swam ashore, battered and wounded, yet some stayed on (in my opinion) and went over the falls while paddling furiously, but now, really battered and half drowned, have finally made it to shore and are getting that much needed oxygen.
But I digress. I just think he went from good to bad, not from bad to bad, and that when he was still good, he put some teachings down that helped alot of people and that those teachings were not designed originally to take advantage of people, that's all. Hope that covers it.
I guess the problem is, if I state this opinion here which runs at cross purposes with those who think otherwise, it sort of throws a monkey wrench into the efforts of those who want to make sure that all comers like Mr. McKeon see it the other way. But I guess this is the problem with an open forum where all points of view are welcome, yet not always agreed upon. Once again, hope that covers it. :)
And sorry if acted frustrated in that one post. I was. But, no call for that. Love you Rascal, and I hope that spring break up brings you some good bass fishing! :)
OK Jonny, I apologise for frustrating you....That certainly isn`t my intention ......Maybe you simply have a bigger picture than I do of greasespot and it`s impact on people.
I would like to continue this discussion ....if possible without anger because I am genuinely interested in a honest view of what happened to us.
If you do not want to...please....just ignore the rest of my post .... I love you too Jonny, and mean no disrespect to you personally in my struggle to come to grips with what twi was all about :)
I do not understand what good it does ck or anybody else to pretend that vpw was a *nice* guy...
I`d like to ask you though...at what point do you think vpw was *good*? I mean was it before pfal when he took credit for bg leanards class and ran it as his own? Was it before when he was a pastor that got fired for sexual impropriety with his church secretary? Was it before he snuck off to get married and kept it secret from their family for a year?....Was it before he was acting like the town show off and bully in high school???
I mean to me....it appears that he was always hurting somebody some way in order to achieve what he wanted.....
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doojable
Jonny,
Folks feel what they feel. Your voice is welcomed - at least by me. When I get too over the top, you offer another side of the story and you make me say, "Hmmmmmmmm........."
Now, that's a good thing!
Please don't stop speaking up. just remember that old military addage,
"You knew the job was dangerous when you took it."
You're one of the good ones! Mwah!
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Goey
I don't have a problem with a sinner being called either. God can call whoever he wants. Paul is probably our best example. However, after his calling Paul did not continue his ways that were contrary to God - He repented and led a decent life as it is expected of those who would minister to the Church.
Best I can tell tell though we have no examples in the Bible of men that were "called" of God and continued in their sin or "waxed worse" and still retained their minstry/calling with God's blessing. Yet we do have examples of men like Saul and Eli to draw from. How did God deal with them?
So If I consider that VPW was called (which I have) , then I would have to conclude that he was "retired" of his calling pretty early - when he first used his calling and position of trust to sexually exploit a precious child of God.
I would also have to wonder why God would call a man, knowing he would abuse that calling do the things that VPW did repeatedly and unrepentantly *after* he was called. I see no examples of that in the Bible either. I know that is an argument from silence, but I do think it is worthy of consideration.
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dmiller
"Class -- sometimes ya gotta read what the Word doesn't say."
Sound familiar?? ;)
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allan w.
And I think Garths' point about "a thief giving directions to the airport, is still a thief.." is pretty lame as well.
If I want and NEED directions to the airport and no-one else is around to give me directions, I'll gladly take the advice.
In fact I believe that if it was a need to really know the right directions to the 'airport', God would work within the whole situation to bring me to that thief !!
Cause all I want are the 'directions', I don't want the thiefs' lifestyle nor his baggage, just the directions !!
Hey GS'ers, w/o the Allans, Oldies, JohnIams, Ex10's, White Doves, Sudosuda's, Johnny Lingos and yes, even the Mikes, you'd all end up bitter old prunes by midnight, so gives us a break WILL YA. !!
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ex10
Well, at the risk of getting thrown in the doctrinal dungeon......
What about all those wicked kings of Israel? who led Israel into idolatry? and caused them to sin in the worst way possible? Judas? Surely God knew that they would end up pretty badly, too? Just thinking out loud....
I don't think that God needs to do evil, before good can happen. But......how to explain it? Free will? Choice? Men choose evil over good all the time. And innocent people pay for it. I don't think that's God's intention, yet it happens.
Oh geeze, Allan. I don't feel like I need a "break." Most folks here are quite kind and considerate, and don't mind the occasional stupid attack. My experience here is that most folks are quick to forgive. I just don't believe in insulting and belittling posters for their feelings and opinions. Argue, yes, sometimes. Get into heated discussions? Most definitely. Truth be told, in the years I've been hanging around the joint, I have felt insulted, unappreciated, belittled at times. But I guess I just decided to get over myself, and realize that MY OPINION is not more RIGHT than anybody elses. Sorry if I sound preachy. I don't mean to lecture you in partcular. I just have a big mouth sometimes.
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GarthP2000
... and then you get to the airport and find out that your wallet has been 'borrowed', ie., stolen by the thief. For a lot of us, that is indeed what happened, and many of us didn't even 'make it to the airport'.
Face it, pal. If you're looking for those to 'look the other way' when it comes to VeePee, (of course under the guise of "forgiveness"), we know better than to buy that *scam*. Ie., No Sale!
Deal with it!
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oldiesman
As I see it, because Wierwille also did good things with the knowledge he learned, and folks needed and needing to hear the Word of God as set forth by Dr. Wierwille. Can't think of a reason other than that... not because of Wierwille's goodness, but has to be God's grace, and VP answering the call.
I believe folks need to hear these things still even today ... as long as false doctrine is still being taught and folks are still walking in darkness. Let it be taught and let folks decide if they agree with it, just like we did.
Why didn't God find somebody else who walked circumspectly or more circumspectly? He did. As we know, lots of the stuff VP taught was not original, so God found folks already, but I didn't hear the Word from those folks, I heard it through Dr.'s ministry and others affiliated with twi. So I am loathe to kick him or them in the teeth and slap God in the face because of the sins of Wierwille and others. God will deal with the judgment of those sins.
I came from a background where the Word was virtually non existent, hacked to pieces to have any real meaning for me. The religion of my youth. I wore a scapula so Mary would pray for me to help me be blessed, maybe. I can't tell you how thankful I am to be rescued from that moronic garbage.
But God says his Word will accomplish that which He pleases and shall prosper in the thing whereto He sent it.
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Oakspear
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justloafing
Did God call him?
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Belle
Has everyone forgotten that vee pee's evil deeds started way before PFAL? He was a liar from the beginning and the reason he started his own shindig was because he was caught screwing a woman in the church where he was BEFORE starting TWI?
:unsure:
The guy got married and lied about it. The guy was a troublemaker as a kid if sources from NK are to be believed....WordWolf clearly documented all this stuff in his historical threads.....
vee pee's evil and deception didn't start with TWI - TWI just gave him more power to do so and less accountability for it.
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rascal
BINGO!
I don`t think folks WANT to remember .... It means coming to grips with being wrong about something that we were so passionatly sure of at one time.
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Zixar
We've gone over this ground so many times before that you'd think it would finally sink in, to mix a metaphor.
To boil it down to the fundament:
1) PFAL may have been the conduit for many people's lives to be changed for the better, but that in no way mitigates Wierwille's abuses.
2) VPW's sexual sins should not automatically invalidate PFAL, but a book is only as credible as the integrity of the author. Demonstrable plagiarism destroys his credibility as a teacher/researcher/author. The material may or may not be true, but Wierwille cannot be considered an ethical authority on the material. Therefore, unless it can be independently verified, PFAL remains suspect. It is by no means God-breathed--it fails its own criteria for that.
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rascal
Johnny Lingo, does it make a difference that the gentlemen that you compaired vpw to were old testiment natural men? That they didn`t have the benefit of in spirit action to guide them?
Why is it that you had the strength and integrety to turn the offers of sex down?
What is the difference between you and vpw?
I think that you are a fine man of character and integrety....I think that it is the spirit of God that rules within you....I think that you are defending a man who thought that his research skills and knowldege would get him there.....His course...his beliefs...instead made it ok that his personal satisfaction and sating of his lusts were of greater importance than the destruction of our sisters and brothers lives.
Does THIS sound like the actions of a man of the spirit? A genuine minister?
I think that you are too fine a man to be defending this filth.
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ex10
rascal, you said to Johnny: "I think that you are too fine a man to be defending this filth."
Excuse me for butting in, but I just don't see where Johnny is "defending" VP. He doesn't have the "I don't care what VP did wrong, he still taught me the word," attitude at all. As far as I can see, he has been very upfront with what he thinks and what his experiences have been.
What's up?
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Tom Strange
Is that a quote from Mike?
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rascal
ex 10 ...excuse me, but JL appears to be the one furious with folks who refuse to give vpw respect.
I am curious ...questioning him as to the point he tried to make....I am trying to understand the because old testiment natural men sinned and were still worthey of praise....how that can figure with a man supposedly born again and of the spirit is held to the same standard....
People now have to choices...to live as a person of flesh...or a person of spirit.....
Johnny wants us to believe that vpw was a spiritual man ...though by every measuring stick given in the scripture....vpw`s actions brand him as of th eflesh....
.
I think that it is a very important point in understanding WHY vpw was able to teach the scriptures one miniute and visciously destroy at will any whom mildly displeased him the next .......shoot the bible says that it is easy even for the evil folks to be nice to people they like....
Why is it that OTHER Christians at the new birth are instantly delivered from alcoholism, from rage, from lying, from lust???
Why is it that at the new birth some people are affected in s deep life impacting way that makes actyions of the flesh abhorrant to them and not vpw?
I personally believe that EVEN with his vast knowledge....he didn`t *get it*
VPW, his actions, his cold calloused betrayal which I peronally find to be completely repulsive and contemptible.....and as such unworthey of respect in any form due to the havock he wreaked in my beloved brothers and sisters.... pure and simple....
JL, as an upstanding christian man of integrety of decency, of morality and of good character (no I am not being fascitious, I really mean this) wants to defend vp in the fact that he desires us to give him credit which is niether earned or due vpw as a false prophet and ravening wolf.
I LIKE Johnny L, I RESPECT Johnny L, I believe Johnny L to be a a decent man .... but simply see him as honoring filth with his respect and that he appears to be angry with us for not sharing his pov....shrug.
This is a discussion as to why I feel that vpw is unworthey of respect in any shape or form...Johnny L wants to list why he believes he is....I have no problem with that....but it is Johnny who seems to be mad here.
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rascal
JohnnyL, I guess that if I want to endeavor to be a decent Christian person myself... That even if right, if in trying to make my point, I have offended you who are brother, I am in truth wrong.
This isn`t about arguing or slandering or attacking who is right or wrong for me.....but about trying to makes sense and reconcile the God that I want to know and understand verses the pain and devistaion experienced at his supposed ministers hands.
Sometimes in wrestling with my own understanding, I inadvertantly offend others...my apologies.
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doojable
Ya' know....
I'm on the fence here. I see Jonny's point. I see rascal's point. I just don't see why a man that had stirred so much angst durng his life is still able to do so from beyond the grave.
Jonny L is a decent guy! Rascal - you're a decent gal. The two of you (along with a host of others) disagree about VPW.
Yea....and.....
The problem is not the divergence of opinions. As I see it, it is how we treat each other as we talk of out our differing points of view.
If you believe that VPW was of the devil - well then why give him a moment of your thought. Isn't that allowing him some place in your life that shouldn't belong to him?
If you believe that VPW was a good man gone bad. Then you still are stuck with the notion that his bad actions hurt many. That isn't easy to deal with on anyone's part. Still, make sure that you in turn don't hurt others by defending your opinion.
Jonny and rascal - I am not singling you out. You're just the two last names in disagreement in this thread. (Actually I'm thinking of others here more than you two.)
The problem is universal here at GSC. I wish we could all get along and agree to disagree sometimes.....
This isn't my best post - I can't seem to find the words that I know should be said...
sigh..... :unsure:
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rascal
Dooj, please don`t worry....it isn`t so much about arguing about who is right or wrong, it is about questioning, exploring, understanding where/how/why things went wrong....it is about understanding and reconciling the past in order to avoid being vulnerable in the future.
It is about growth and learning, about moving on ...
Some times some of us (I am speaking of myself here) need conflicting perspectives to re evaluate our ideas to begin to climb out of those well worn ruts.....sometimes it is of greater imprtance than simply being nice and getting along to the individual.
Please don`t be distressed....it isn`t personal.
I LIKE Johnny ...else I wouldn`t value his imputs or thoughts...I would just put him on ignore :)
Try not to see it as arguing or fighting....but a quest to understand....at least on my part.
Edited to add....thank you btw for the compliment :)
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J0nny Ling0
Listen Rascal, I want to thank you for the compliments. And believe me, that incident I just shared was way hard to deal with. But, I made it thank God. But I want you to know that I am not defending VPW's actions. I am simply stating that I believe that he went from having a good motive initially to having a bad motive and horrible actions as his ministry progressed. I simply believe that he started out trying to help people, but ended up being tempted into destructive sin as he gained momentum. On this we disagree. Simple
I believe, and this is documentable, that a person can be born again, have holy spirit, but still walk according to the flesh. This is why we are to be "spiritually minded", for; "To be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is Life and Peace." This, by logical deduction tells me that, I, as a spirit filled Christian, can be "carnally minded" which has it's accompanying negative consequences. For, why would we be told to be spiritually minded if it were not possible for us to not be spiritually minded? It also means that if I am carnally minded, and am under the tuteledge of one who is carnally minded (VPW in this case), that I too will have negative consequences, if I stop being spiritually minded enough to see what is really going on. We were all in the same boat and we all rowed toward the rapids and toward the falls. Some bailed out in the rapids and swam ashore, battered and wounded, yet some stayed on (in my opinion) and went over the falls while paddling furiously, but now, really battered and half drowned, have finally made it to shore and are getting that much needed oxygen.
But I digress. I just think he went from good to bad, not from bad to bad, and that when he was still good, he put some teachings down that helped alot of people and that those teachings were not designed originally to take advantage of people, that's all. Hope that covers it.
I guess the problem is, if I state this opinion here which runs at cross purposes with those who think otherwise, it sort of throws a monkey wrench into the efforts of those who want to make sure that all comers like Mr. McKeon see it the other way. But I guess this is the problem with an open forum where all points of view are welcome, yet not always agreed upon. Once again, hope that covers it. :)
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J0nny Ling0
And sorry if acted frustrated in that one post. I was. But, no call for that. Love you Rascal, and I hope that spring break up brings you some good bass fishing! :)
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doojable
That's it! Now kiss and make up...
(((((((rascal)))))))
((((((((Jonny Lingo)))))))
And the rest of you - get in line! LOL
dooj
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J0nny Ling0
Oh geez, I knew the group hug thing was comin...
:)
But same to ya!
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rascal
OK Jonny, I apologise for frustrating you....That certainly isn`t my intention ......Maybe you simply have a bigger picture than I do of greasespot and it`s impact on people.
I would like to continue this discussion ....if possible without anger because I am genuinely interested in a honest view of what happened to us.
If you do not want to...please....just ignore the rest of my post .... I love you too Jonny, and mean no disrespect to you personally in my struggle to come to grips with what twi was all about :)
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I do not understand what good it does ck or anybody else to pretend that vpw was a *nice* guy...
I`d like to ask you though...at what point do you think vpw was *good*? I mean was it before pfal when he took credit for bg leanards class and ran it as his own? Was it before when he was a pastor that got fired for sexual impropriety with his church secretary? Was it before he snuck off to get married and kept it secret from their family for a year?....Was it before he was acting like the town show off and bully in high school???
I mean to me....it appears that he was always hurting somebody some way in order to achieve what he wanted.....
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