George--your post seems to reflect my marriage pretty well. I am all about what belief makes me feel like. I like it that way and see no need to try to go back to the 'must renew your mind' stuff.
My hubby is the same guy I married, but instead of fellowships, teachings etc he spends his time on wood working, gardening and cooking. Religion or beliefs are not a big interest for him. He'd rather be playing with the scroll saw or fiddling in his garden. I can't see any difference in his temperament through the years.
I can't see that I'm a whole lot different either, in temperament or habits. Well, I'm happier than I was back in our last TWI years, but I tend to run on the sunny side.
I think some of your posts are what Mark O' was referring to as 'apostate'. You know you really don't need to 'go looking' in other 'written works' for excuses to deny Jesus Christ. Isn't it easier to just get honest with yourself and Him and say "no thanks, I'm gonna live my life the way I want to"?!
A lady I know who recently 'got back' to the things of God (in her late 50's) started attending church again really enjoying it.
Her husband was o.k. with it at first but then began to get quite nasty about it ,("oh, so you're off to fellowshi* again are you") etc..
She warned him a cupla times, then just said "see you around", packed her bags and left. !!
I bumped into her a few months back and she is really enjoying herself and her (in her words) sweet uninhibited fellowship with God.
A lady I know who recently 'got back' to the things of God (in her late 50's) started attending church again really enjoying it.
Her husband was o.k. with it at first but then began to get quite nasty about it ,("oh, so you're off to fellowshi* again are you") etc..
She warned him a cupla times, then just said "see you around", packed her bags and left. !!
I bumped into her a few months back and she is really enjoying herself and her (in her words) sweet uninhibited fellowship with God.
It is certainly off base for a husband to be saying things like you related Allan, but is that grounds for divorce? And what was the wife saying to the husband? Surely nothing along the lines of condemning his choices, or questioning where he'd end up in the "afterlife" either, I'm sure.
Doesn't your bible say: "If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him." ?
Yeah..I don't think he was happy to dwell with her. They lived in a place with no electricity and he told her that if she wanted a hot bath in winter to go get a better paying job...o.k... so maybe it wasn't JUST the church thingy !!
As Paul Harvey says, that's "the rest of the story", Allan. You made it sound like the husband made a few stupid remarks about her church and she left. I guess it doesn't make so good a "stow-ry" when you have all the facts.
"If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him."
I am confident we will find the peace we desire to completely restore our happy household.
So sorry for choosing the wrong place for advice and counsel. I apologize for those I have offended. I was truly looking for help, not an avenue to air dirty laundry, as I thought our differences were already known from other posts. You all know my husband and what a wonderful man he is, and I was not trying to demean him in any way. Again, so sorry for my error.
...I was truly looking for help, not an avenue to air dirty laundry, ...
(((((((sudossuda)))))))
Just reading through here, and I can't imagine what you're going through, not at all.
You sound like a strong, tender woman, and I'll be praying for you and yours to somehow get a closeness that allows for peace to reign in your home and life.
I don't know your husband, maybe this is a way for him to deal with all the garbage from TWI & religion... there can be pressures from churches too...
I don't see a need for you to apologize Sudossuda~
Thanks for the input. My heart focuses on I am confident we will find the peace we desire to completely restore our happy household.
So sorry for choosing the wrong place for advice and counsel. I apologize for those I have offended. I was truly looking for help, not an avenue to air dirty laundry, as I thought our differences were already known from other posts. You all know my husband and what a wonderful man he is, and I was not trying to demean him in any way. Again, so sorry for my error.
Suda, I'm getting to know you from your recent posts just as I've gotten to know your husband from his... you seem like good folks... both of you. But I do have to say that I'm kind of uncomfortable reading about this here... and I really have gotten 'uncomfortable' reading the replies of "those who think they have all of the answers"... I appreciate what you two are trying to figure out and what I perceive you're trying to get to... I just don't like it being thrown out here for the wolves to pounce on since you both "visit" here often...
Like I said... my perception is that you're both fine folks with good hearts... that's a good combination.
No sweat, Suda! Just like my favorite Strange Guy said, I've gotten to know you both from your posts, and I think I'd like you both, for different reasons. And so of course, I'd like to see two decent people like you two enjoy your marriage.
You came on here looking to understand the changes that ex-Wayers go through, so you could better understand yourself and Sudo, and your relationship. I hope you got some insight, and I hope you stay and continue to contribute, you have such a thoughtful way of looking at things. I hope I wasn't overdoing the Ann Landers thing, but you asked some questions and said some things that helped me better understand what I want out of people, and out of life. So I thank you for putting yourself out like that, it helped me.
Responses here seem to reflect Mars and Venus, the differences between men and women. Anyone else notice that, or is it just me? May be something I need to consider a bit more deeply.
Both sides are extremely helpful. I appreciate the input.
Tom Strange, I am sorry I have created a situation that has made you uncomfortable. I apologize to you and anyone else I have made to feel ill at ease. It was not my intent, and I will try to avoid doing so in the future.
For me I was just itching to find a way to deny Jesus Christ as my saviour, just itching. Sure enough I found one.
Ok, not really, but ah the days when I used to think I knew everyone's true motives! Those were the days.
I won't list all the reasons or give a break down of my process step by step, but it was a process that led me to admit to the fact that I just dont know. It was about being honest to myself first, and then to others. Funny a lot of people don't care about your personal honesty or respect it much. That is what it boiled down to though.
Now I try not to belittle people for their beliefs. Although, if someone brings it up, I will discuss it in very frank and honest terms. I think for many people a theology does them a lot of good. That's great. I can't say I fully understand why but it does and that is fine. Just do the same for me is all I ask. "Do unto others as they would do unto you" makes a lot of sense to me.
Not a big fan of war zones of any kind, but hopefully peace will come from it. Although, as with most war zones peace was possible another way.
As far as Weirwille goes, for me too many things point in a bad direction for him. Obviously, the ultimate answer is we don't REAALY know, but with an educated guess it looks to me like perhaps he mixed something that would make him the "man he knew to be" with the man he wanted to be, and it seems that way from the start. Of course for me, it doesn't really have a bearing on my personal standing or state as a human being.
Responses here seem to reflect Mars and Venus, the differences between men and women. Anyone else notice that, or is it just me? May be something I need to consider a bit more deeply.
I don't know about anyone else here, but I'm from Pluto. ... Go figure that one out.
I have no idea how the topic wandered so far afield, but since this is GSC after all, I'm not at all surprised.
Suda: I certainly wouldn't presume to give you marital advice, but there is one thing I thought I'd pass along that might help put things in a different light. At its core, atheism is no different from any other religion. Let me repeat that--atheism is NO different from any other religion. Once you realize that, then dealing with them becomes no different than any other interfaith exchange. Instead of Jehovah, Buddha, or Allah, their chosen concept is named Nogod. (The trick is that while most religions require their deities' names to be capitalized, atheists insist theirs must only be capitalized at the beginning of a sentence, and with a space inserted into it after the second letter, always.)
The parallels to other evangelical zealots become quite obvious then:
--Always ready to profess their profound, unshakeable belief in Nogod.
--Easily provoked to argument should someone challenge the belief in Nogod.
--According to them, the world's problems would be greatly alleviated if everyone started believing in Nogod and behaving accordingly.
--Resist all forms of public religious display or discussion, unless it furthers the belief in Nogod.
--Unless it explicitly states or clearly implies the existence of Nogod, it may not be taught to their children.
--While claiming to be logical and rational, any incompleteness to a scientific theory is minimized or ignored, since acknowledging there is still work to do might undermine belief in Nogod. Therefore, all interpretations that support Nogod are dogmatically taken as unassailable "fact", while all else is ironically claimed to be "bad science", usually in as smug and condescending a way as possible.
--Parents who believe in Nogod are usually just as upset as any other highly-religious ones when their children decide to believe in something other than Nogod.
--Historical prophets abound, although usually misquoted or misrepresented to support the adherent's current beliefs. (cf. Jesus, Mohammed, Charles Darwin)
--Unless it gets you off of work with pay, all other faiths' holidays are ignored.
There's tons of other religious parallels (what happens to you after you die, how should you be judged while you're alive, the treatment of male infants' foreskins, et cetera ad nauseam) but you get the idea.
Me? I just refuse to believe in Nogod, but I don't care if others do, as long as they aren't trying to spend my tax dollars to get it taught in our schools, or trying to obnoxiously convert me.
I only have one response to the following that you posted:
At its core, atheism is no different from any other religion. Let me repeat that--atheism is NO different from any other religion. Once you realize that, then dealing with them becomes no different than any other interfaith exchange. Instead of Jehovah, Buddha, or Allah, their chosen concept is named Nogod. (The trick is that while most religions require their deities' names to be capitalized, atheists insist theirs must only be capitalized at the beginning of a sentence, and with a space inserted into it after the second letter, always.)
And that is this: Atheism is a religion like baldness is a hair color.
Apparently all religions also use all sorts of canned phraseology and flat-out mistruths to deflect and misdirect...
Examples:
"TWI isn't a 'cult' (or a 'church'), it's a Biblical Research, Teaching, and Fellowship Ministry™!" (yeah, right. 'Tax dodge' doesn't sound as classy...)
"Islam is a religion of peace." (yeah, right. Draw a picture of Mohammed saying that, and see what happens...)
"Atheism is a religion like baldness is a hair color." (yeah, right. Non sequitur has as much value as a counter-argument as "Liar, liar, pants on fire!"...)
Did ya see my line beneath that phrase I used? "Think about it" is what it said. And I actually thought that you, with your grasp on logical thinking skills, wouldn't need to have me explain it to you.
Apparently I was wrong ((sigh)) :unsure:
Atheism is to religion like baldness is to hair color. Ie., because there is no hair, there IS no 'hair color' to speak of. Because there is no god in atheism, saying it is a religion is the real non sequitur here. Ie., they have no god(s) to believe in. And with the exception of the out-and-out strong atheistic claim of "There is no god" (which not all atheists share btw; as a matter of fact, only a minority of atheists go that far in their unbelief, something that arguably requires a kind of faith, since a god cannot be proven nor disproven), atheism itself is simply the non-belief in a god. A non-belief in/of something (in this case, God) requires no proof, as the person is simply saying that they do not accept the claim made. The believer is the one making the claim. The claim (in this case: a God) that is extraordinary in its nature. The non-believer asks for proof of said being that is accordingly extra-ordinary; proof enough to accept as fact. When told by the believer that all they have is scriptures, and that the belief is (largely at least) based upon faith, and the unbeliever says "I do not accept your premise of god" it is not the same thing as accepting something extra-ordinary because of/based on faith. The basis for deciding 'yes' (believer) or 'no' (unbeliever) to the belief in God is based on two different things. Why, the bible even covers this distinction.
The skeptic says that it is the believer that makes the claim of something to believe in, and that based upon faith. Therefore the burden of proof/requirement to believe is upon them, NOT the atheist.
Ergo the flawed comparison equivocating the atheist and the believer.
No misdirection or deflection here guy. Must be that mirror you're looking at. <_<
Don't take this so personally, guy. If you have your faith, and it works for you, nothing I can say can destroy it. ... This is why I never could grasp the mentality of the 'Defender of the Faith' variety. Perhaps if they can realize this little focused on fact, they'd quit getting their holy underwear in a wad when those of us *evil ones* dare to speak about our unbelief.
Anywho, I don't want to derail this thread anymore than it has already. Do what you will with this response.
Spoken like a true believer... As I intimated earlier, every religious belief has intricate defenses prepared for the challenges...even the belief that claims it is "no belief". Christianity, Islam, TWI, atheism, it's all the same thing at the meta-level. I could debate this at length, but it's late. The very short counter-argument to your proposition is that zero is still a number, and cannot be excluded from mathematics simply because it has some unique degenerate properties. Atheism is the zero of religion.
And I didn't take it personally at all, Garth. (Tell Grif & Donut that siblings Scooter and Cleo are just fine, as are their younger relatives Stormy & Smudge.)
atheism does not claim that it is the "belief that has no beliefs", but the belief that there is no God, or the opinion that the evidence does not support belief in God.
Edited by Oakspear
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George--your post seems to reflect my marriage pretty well. I am all about what belief makes me feel like. I like it that way and see no need to try to go back to the 'must renew your mind' stuff.
My hubby is the same guy I married, but instead of fellowships, teachings etc he spends his time on wood working, gardening and cooking. Religion or beliefs are not a big interest for him. He'd rather be playing with the scroll saw or fiddling in his garden. I can't see any difference in his temperament through the years.
I can't see that I'm a whole lot different either, in temperament or habits. Well, I'm happier than I was back in our last TWI years, but I tend to run on the sunny side.
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ex10
Wordwolf
FWIW. I think your last post was pretty insightful. Thanks for that.
You too Satori.
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allan w.
I think some of your posts are what Mark O' was referring to as 'apostate'. You know you really don't need to 'go looking' in other 'written works' for excuses to deny Jesus Christ. Isn't it easier to just get honest with yourself and Him and say "no thanks, I'm gonna live my life the way I want to"?!
A lady I know who recently 'got back' to the things of God (in her late 50's) started attending church again really enjoying it.
Her husband was o.k. with it at first but then began to get quite nasty about it ,("oh, so you're off to fellowshi* again are you") etc..
She warned him a cupla times, then just said "see you around", packed her bags and left. !!
I bumped into her a few months back and she is really enjoying herself and her (in her words) sweet uninhibited fellowship with God.
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Oakspear
Suda:
check your private messages please
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Oakspear
Doesn't your bible say: "If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him." ?
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excathedra
good stuff geo and bramble
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allan w.
Yeah..I don't think he was happy to dwell with her. They lived in a place with no electricity and he told her that if she wanted a hot bath in winter to go get a better paying job...o.k... so maybe it wasn't JUST the church thingy !!
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Oakspear
As Paul Harvey says, that's "the rest of the story", Allan. You made it sound like the husband made a few stupid remarks about her church and she left. I guess it doesn't make so good a "stow-ry" when you have all the facts.
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Suda
Thanks for the input. My heart focuses on
I am confident we will find the peace we desire to completely restore our happy household.So sorry for choosing the wrong place for advice and counsel. I apologize for those I have offended. I was truly looking for help, not an avenue to air dirty laundry, as I thought our differences were already known from other posts. You all know my husband and what a wonderful man he is, and I was not trying to demean him in any way. Again, so sorry for my error.
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SafariVista
(((((((sudossuda)))))))
Just reading through here, and I can't imagine what you're going through, not at all.
You sound like a strong, tender woman, and I'll be praying for you and yours to somehow get a closeness that allows for peace to reign in your home and life.
I don't know your husband, maybe this is a way for him to deal with all the garbage from TWI & religion... there can be pressures from churches too...
I don't see a need for you to apologize Sudossuda~
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Tom Strange
Suda, I'm getting to know you from your recent posts just as I've gotten to know your husband from his... you seem like good folks... both of you. But I do have to say that I'm kind of uncomfortable reading about this here... and I really have gotten 'uncomfortable' reading the replies of "those who think they have all of the answers"... I appreciate what you two are trying to figure out and what I perceive you're trying to get to... I just don't like it being thrown out here for the wolves to pounce on since you both "visit" here often...
Like I said... my perception is that you're both fine folks with good hearts... that's a good combination.
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GarthP2000
Sudossuda, is Sudo your husband?
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shazdancer
No sweat, Suda! Just like my favorite Strange Guy said, I've gotten to know you both from your posts, and I think I'd like you both, for different reasons. And so of course, I'd like to see two decent people like you two enjoy your marriage.
You came on here looking to understand the changes that ex-Wayers go through, so you could better understand yourself and Sudo, and your relationship. I hope you got some insight, and I hope you stay and continue to contribute, you have such a thoughtful way of looking at things. I hope I wasn't overdoing the Ann Landers thing, but you asked some questions and said some things that helped me better understand what I want out of people, and out of life. So I thank you for putting yourself out like that, it helped me.
Take care,
Shaz
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Suda
Responses here seem to reflect Mars and Venus, the differences between men and women. Anyone else notice that, or is it just me? May be something I need to consider a bit more deeply.
Both sides are extremely helpful. I appreciate the input.
Tom Strange, I am sorry I have created a situation that has made you uncomfortable. I apologize to you and anyone else I have made to feel ill at ease. It was not my intent, and I will try to avoid doing so in the future.
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Tom Strange
oh... no apology necessary for me (but thanks anyway)... stuff happens, I was just thinking of you two...
fuhgeddaboutit...
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lindyhopper
For me I was just itching to find a way to deny Jesus Christ as my saviour, just itching. Sure enough I found one.
Ok, not really, but ah the days when I used to think I knew everyone's true motives! Those were the days.
I won't list all the reasons or give a break down of my process step by step, but it was a process that led me to admit to the fact that I just dont know. It was about being honest to myself first, and then to others. Funny a lot of people don't care about your personal honesty or respect it much. That is what it boiled down to though.
Now I try not to belittle people for their beliefs. Although, if someone brings it up, I will discuss it in very frank and honest terms. I think for many people a theology does them a lot of good. That's great. I can't say I fully understand why but it does and that is fine. Just do the same for me is all I ask. "Do unto others as they would do unto you" makes a lot of sense to me.
Not a big fan of war zones of any kind, but hopefully peace will come from it. Although, as with most war zones peace was possible another way.
As far as Weirwille goes, for me too many things point in a bad direction for him. Obviously, the ultimate answer is we don't REAALY know, but with an educated guess it looks to me like perhaps he mixed something that would make him the "man he knew to be" with the man he wanted to be, and it seems that way from the start. Of course for me, it doesn't really have a bearing on my personal standing or state as a human being.
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GarthP2000
I don't know about anyone else here, but I'm from Pluto. ... Go figure that one out.
:ph34r:
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Zixar
I have no idea how the topic wandered so far afield, but since this is GSC after all, I'm not at all surprised.
Suda: I certainly wouldn't presume to give you marital advice, but there is one thing I thought I'd pass along that might help put things in a different light. At its core, atheism is no different from any other religion. Let me repeat that--atheism is NO different from any other religion. Once you realize that, then dealing with them becomes no different than any other interfaith exchange. Instead of Jehovah, Buddha, or Allah, their chosen concept is named Nogod. (The trick is that while most religions require their deities' names to be capitalized, atheists insist theirs must only be capitalized at the beginning of a sentence, and with a space inserted into it after the second letter, always.)
The parallels to other evangelical zealots become quite obvious then:
--Always ready to profess their profound, unshakeable belief in Nogod.
--Easily provoked to argument should someone challenge the belief in Nogod.
--According to them, the world's problems would be greatly alleviated if everyone started believing in Nogod and behaving accordingly.
--Resist all forms of public religious display or discussion, unless it furthers the belief in Nogod.
--Unless it explicitly states or clearly implies the existence of Nogod, it may not be taught to their children.
--While claiming to be logical and rational, any incompleteness to a scientific theory is minimized or ignored, since acknowledging there is still work to do might undermine belief in Nogod. Therefore, all interpretations that support Nogod are dogmatically taken as unassailable "fact", while all else is ironically claimed to be "bad science", usually in as smug and condescending a way as possible.
--Parents who believe in Nogod are usually just as upset as any other highly-religious ones when their children decide to believe in something other than Nogod.
--Historical prophets abound, although usually misquoted or misrepresented to support the adherent's current beliefs. (cf. Jesus, Mohammed, Charles Darwin)
--Unless it gets you off of work with pay, all other faiths' holidays are ignored.
There's tons of other religious parallels (what happens to you after you die, how should you be judged while you're alive, the treatment of male infants' foreskins, et cetera ad nauseam) but you get the idea.
Me? I just refuse to believe in Nogod, but I don't care if others do, as long as they aren't trying to spend my tax dollars to get it taught in our schools, or trying to obnoxiously convert me.
Happy Wednesday,
Zixar
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GarthP2000
Zix,
I only have one response to the following that you posted:
And that is this: Atheism is a religion like baldness is a hair color.
Think about it.
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Zixar
Apparently all religions also use all sorts of canned phraseology and flat-out mistruths to deflect and misdirect...
Examples:
"TWI isn't a 'cult' (or a 'church'), it's a Biblical Research, Teaching, and Fellowship Ministry™!" (yeah, right. 'Tax dodge' doesn't sound as classy...)
"Islam is a religion of peace." (yeah, right. Draw a picture of Mohammed saying that, and see what happens...)
"Atheism is a religion like baldness is a hair color." (yeah, right. Non sequitur has as much value as a counter-argument as "Liar, liar, pants on fire!"...)
Zealots abound...
:)
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GarthP2000
Zix,
Did ya see my line beneath that phrase I used? "Think about it" is what it said. And I actually thought that you, with your grasp on logical thinking skills, wouldn't need to have me explain it to you.
Apparently I was wrong ((sigh)) :unsure:
Atheism is to religion like baldness is to hair color. Ie., because there is no hair, there IS no 'hair color' to speak of. Because there is no god in atheism, saying it is a religion is the real non sequitur here. Ie., they have no god(s) to believe in. And with the exception of the out-and-out strong atheistic claim of "There is no god" (which not all atheists share btw; as a matter of fact, only a minority of atheists go that far in their unbelief, something that arguably requires a kind of faith, since a god cannot be proven nor disproven), atheism itself is simply the non-belief in a god. A non-belief in/of something (in this case, God) requires no proof, as the person is simply saying that they do not accept the claim made. The believer is the one making the claim. The claim (in this case: a God) that is extraordinary in its nature. The non-believer asks for proof of said being that is accordingly extra-ordinary; proof enough to accept as fact. When told by the believer that all they have is scriptures, and that the belief is (largely at least) based upon faith, and the unbeliever says "I do not accept your premise of god" it is not the same thing as accepting something extra-ordinary because of/based on faith. The basis for deciding 'yes' (believer) or 'no' (unbeliever) to the belief in God is based on two different things. Why, the bible even covers this distinction.
The skeptic says that it is the believer that makes the claim of something to believe in, and that based upon faith. Therefore the burden of proof/requirement to believe is upon them, NOT the atheist.
Ergo the flawed comparison equivocating the atheist and the believer.
No misdirection or deflection here guy. Must be that mirror you're looking at. <_<
Don't take this so personally, guy.
If you have your faith, and it works for you, nothing I can say can destroy it. ... This is why I never could grasp the mentality of the 'Defender of the Faith' variety. Perhaps if they can realize this little focused on fact, they'd quit getting their holy underwear in a wad when those of us *evil ones* 
dare to speak about our unbelief.
Anywho, I don't want to derail this thread anymore than it has already. Do what you will with this response.
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Zixar
Spoken like a true believer...
As I intimated earlier, every religious belief has intricate defenses prepared for the challenges...even the belief that claims it is "no belief". Christianity, Islam, TWI, atheism, it's all the same thing at the meta-level. I could debate this at length, but it's late. The very short counter-argument to your proposition is that zero is still a number, and cannot be excluded from mathematics simply because it has some unique degenerate properties. Atheism is the zero of religion.
And I didn't take it personally at all, Garth. (Tell Grif & Donut that siblings Scooter and Cleo are just fine, as are their younger relatives Stormy & Smudge.)
God bless!
Zix
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Oakspear
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Zixar
And again, all religions have their nitpicks and rationalizations...
QED. :)
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