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Everything posted by socks

  1. Revival and Restoration

    Thanks for the information, Rocky. Interesting reading and listening. I haven't been on GS for quite awhile. Peace, homies! I was surprised my dancing Calvin dude is gone. I must have missed an upgrade. Not to worry, Calvin is always *here*. Got a heads up to this topic sent to me by a friend-o. This has been a developing story for several months, first heard about some of this movement a year or so ago. But if they don't land in front of my face I don't hear about this kind of stuff. DWBH! Yes, indeed. I see Ed and Jackie Horney there. Knew them back in Miami, they were both coming to our fellowship way back when, when they were dating. I love them, although I haven't really seen them for many years and have only friended Ed on farcebake recently. I'm glad they've separated themselves from the Way, any degree of separation will benefit them. They, as all of us, deserve a lot better than what's being funneled out of The Way Nash these days. But true - all of these people were active in the past 30 - 40, 50 years (dang, we're getting old aren't we???). I find it amazing they can suddenly be so critical the last few months, or years, of policies and actions that have been so for decades and that they themselves embraced and participated in. Y'know? Watzupwiddat? That business about the Way employee who was scheduled to teach a SNS and was pulled the last minute.....oh, the horror, it wasn't even announced, a new teacher took the podium, no explanation and worst of all, everyone from his domain area that had dialed in didn't know what was going on! Oh, the confusion they must have felt! As if that's a new scenario in the Way......? That kind of thing has happened and most assuredly continues to happen ALL THE TIME. the Way's byline should be "No, We Don't Answer Questions".....they never tell anyone anything about what they're doing and they're constant press-release communications amount to "You're ALWAYS welcome at the Way!", which is an english translation of a greek phrase that originally meant "Fu ck You". So, agreed, they're apparently nuts, damaged goods, dented cans, smiling icons of a lost race of people once thought to dwell in central Ohio. Museum artifacts. We be pretty far from any concerns as to what they're "revive and restore" business will be about but I'm sure it will be taking donations soon enough. Take care, my friends! Jesus is the way, the truth and the life! He was dead and lives again and God forgives and saves to the uttermost any and all who come to Him through Christ. Reckon yourself dead to sin and alive in Christ and enjoy that "new life" smell all the time!! You deserve it! Peace!! Well, that's about it. This is my bi-centennial post. And speaking of donations, I know you're probably wondering how to show your gratitude for this enlightening presentation. I get it and rather than complicate things, I've set up a number of ways for you to give back, and all for your convenience. 1. Use the "socks paypal" account to contribute to this important work. It's easy - go to paypal, find the "MoneyIsLikeLoveButCrisper" account and choose an amount. Think big. God doesn't like little thinkers. 2. Kickstart donations - yep, you can fund my next Big Idea. And I've got some great ones! Get involved! It's not going to fund itself! 3. Send those love dollars directly to me, socks. Use my email account: TakeMyMoneyPleaseSocks@ReviveAndRestoreMySockDrawer.com Peace out!!
  2. Hierarchy of Servants

    Excellent insight Twinky. Innerstin' reading and thought. I think Jesus made it abundantly clear what He expects His followers to do. I don't think the current religious systems can be fixed. I say that with the caveat that effort towards doing that could certainly improve them but on a large scale effort it's just too much baggage to go through in my opinion. The only purpose i see for an "organization" is to facilitate the members of the "body of Christ" to work with each other and towards their collective common goals. Something like the Way Nash-anon never got it, we never took it to the next level of growth and VPW never promoted a true Acts-like functionality in the Way. Good bad or indifferent, the Way just didn't do that, I mean it as less a criticism and more a statement of fact. Running a business to hold classes and seminars isn't the same as caring for the weak and needy in the church and making sure everyone is being taken care of. Even the example in Acts of the disciples trying to split up the work assumes that there's a desire to do some useful work to help others. The image I get of the early guys and gals is that they were doing exactly that, doing whatever needed to be done for the growing following. They were, after all the followers of Christ who had known Him, lived with Him, knew Him face to face. If anyone was going to carry the message of service-first-know-us-by-our-love it would have had to be them. Being human I supppose they did the best they could as long as they could. Today, for me, there's been too much water under the bridge. It's not just the Roman Catholic church although they're about as bloated as you can get. The church/pastor model works fine if it's done using a community/cooperative model...at whatever level the members wish to participate use a share and share alike approach.
  3. Jesus was invented by the Romans

    What a waste of time. Discussing the discussion, that's pretty much what happens and then of course disagreement = VPW has you hypnotized! Oh well. This is the last time for me. S'yall!
  4. "Are the Dead Alive Now" was plagiarized.

    Oh now WordWolf that's just crazy talk! :biglaugh:/> Reincarnation has never "quite" added up for me. Reincarnation fits with the Conservaton of Energy law I think but I'm not sure that law is fully accommodated by it in return. Where all of the consciousness is coming from is a sticky issue for me. "Life" isn't an entirely unique thing, as it actually occurs. It's a "miracle" I would agree but once the requirements are met it's up and running - and there's a lot of miracles running around. And those miracles can be 'accidents' and unintentional, even out right cursed by the progenitors, later. So the higher purpose of life, if there is one, isn't required to be served in order to produce a life. The process of producing an instance of life is also very repeatable from existing materials - buuuuut - The consciousness not so much. Consciousness and specifically the accumulation of memories is individual and only occurs in an individual instance, or "container" as it were. Without memories there's not a lot of usable life. That's where I get stuck - Life is produced from existing materials but can't actually become a person that would learn or do anything without extreme change - "aging" by our word. So there's "Life" the idea and there's "Life" the actual person, which is all that really counts. So ------- it isn't really repeatable in the way that reincarnation suggests I think.
  5. Jesus was invented by the Romans

    Growing up in the 50's and 60's, raised and educated Roman Catholic, converted to Christianity and now something of a Reformed Christian I've probably been exposed to many of the same things as the rest of you. If I didn't want to believe the history and tradition of Christianity there are many different alternates, interpretations and options. Pick one and go with it. So far I haven't seen anything that provides a factual alternate. Christianity is often criticized as being short on facts, long on faith. Fine, just don't ask me to switch to another view where there are in fact, no facts to outweigh the Christian view .That just seems silly. But believe as you will, it's a free country. Either way, Rome came and went and the names of the Romans who supposedly cooked this up are gone and their names aren't exactly household words. Today I saw a bumper sticker that said "Jesus Loves You"....haven't seen a lot of "The Emperor Titus Flavius Loves You" stickers. Lately.
  6. Jesus was invented by the Romans

    Another thing to consider about the evidence/history of Jesus - this is juat a point of my own but in response to the topic - Jews by commandment were forbidden to make idols, "graven imags", statues, etc. to worship or pray to. Jehovah didn't want a sculpted rendering of "Himself" that mankind would go to, look at and say "this represents God", or "this is God". Jesus - the "son of God" - would not have been treated differently by the Jews that followed Him, I would think....the Temple wasn't God or where God "was" or lived, and the N.T. speaks to that in the book of Acts. So there was no ongoing traditon of elevating iconic images of God or any of the Prophets. Roman scupture and art was very developed at that time however - no lack of it, quite the opposite. I might conjecture if I was going to - that a Roman Jesus would have been served very well by some later statues, paintings, engravings, turning up.....just a thought. Now - of course Roman Catholicism comes to mind - which became very involved in imagery and the desire to represent God and Jesus and all of the assorted characters of history, but these are all after the fact and make no claim to be anything other than at best, inspired efforts but with no declared claim to be accurate depictions. Today many denominations are flooded with it - shoot, we got Jesus's in America that look like Greg Allman after a good night's sleep, hot shower and hearty breakfast. No lack of it today but nothnig that comes from that era. So rather than assuming the faux Jesus stuff is Roman developed it makes more - or at least equal sense - to take the stance that the lack of historical images and renderings is completely in context with what the Jews that converted would have done. And not done. In other words, the absence of paintings, statues, icons and representations of Jesus would be typical and characteristic of His era and the abundance that evolved later would indicate the influence of external influences and a misguided effort to basically market Christianity.
  7. Jesus was invented by the Romans

    I wanted more but after reading everything I found, shy of buying the book - I don't see the Romans, a Roman, saying "We invented Jesus Christ, and we're proud of it" - ever. There's no historical facts - just a projection. Christians take a lot of heat but - after this guy started selling his book, the Pope didn't put out an order to execute the guy. Religious faithful aren't storming the streets and burning the guy's book and beating people that try to buy it. We're not crying on TV interviews and wailing to the sky about how insulting and degrading it is that this guy would demean Mohammed - er- I mean, Jesus. Christians get crazy about a lot of stuff - but it's largely small slices of the larger demographic and as far as that goes, there's nothing inhuman about being passionate and drive towards what one believes is true. Rather, it's natural. I swear though - I'm sick to the gut of guys like this who publish day dreams and wanna - be's and act like their scholarly credentials aren't tarnished in the process, $elling books up the ying yang, and all the while smugly attacking something they have no real chance of changing. Enough with the butter knives guys, if you want to cut Jesus Christ down to size you're going to need a bigger knife! :evilshades:/>Just say - you don't want to believe it, the bible, the stuff, and move on and stop selling books and making money off the wonderful effort you make to try and free the stupid and heal the dumb. :evilshades:/>
  8. Jesus was invented by the Romans

    You read my mind, Steve! (note to self: investigate possible get-into-socks-brain pattern of certain posting here....more to come) I guess I need to read more of what Atwell is selling to comment but dammed if I'm putting more money into anyone's pocket in the name of Jesus. I read "Zealot" couple months ago - a fact checker's nightmare. The author, a Muslim, invented and embellished facts as he wrote. It should be sub titled "Based on Events Some Believe May Have Happened This Way". I got tired after the first couple chapters and just skimmed the rest to the end - it was interesting but not really a scholarly effort, given that the author is a self described "scholar". If it was as Atwill describes, the Roman psyche strategy did indeed fail. Or backfired - and what about Constantine? That didn't fire up until the 3rd century. Slow burn syndrome? The premise - invent a peaceful Christ for Jews to follow that will reduce the risk to the Roman empire... In the End Run Game, Jesus isn't widely considered to be a peaceful Messiah, for one thing - let me qualify that - Practically speaking the entire message requires a fundamental, all-family-business-is-settled reckoning between - call them the Good guys and the Bad guys. The names and faces change regularly but even the most peaceful "age of Grace" Christians believe that at any time - BAM! He's coming back and this time...it's personal. /> Whether that be in the sky or through human transformation or anything inbetween. Thus my "Chafing at the Bit" theory - some of us just aren't going to wait. Acts 15 - if that's part of the early history the church in Jerusalem had accepted Gentiles as Christians into the church and determined to not burden them with observing Jewish tradition - that entire growing base would reflect a different demographic in the world at that time - so the Experimental Roman Jesus exploded in a way the Romans didn't plan for - which seems either really ironic or just plain bad luck! The records of the gospels carry the Jerusalem/Samaritan comparison, for "loving your neighbor"....that message in fact draws all Jews together if they follow it, towards a "Jerusalme of the Spirit" as it were - if that message were followed it would serve to reduce the divisiveness at that time between them - so it's interesting - the so-called-Roman-Jesus promotes a coming together of Judean and Samaritan Jews? which would potentially strengthen them not weaken them. I'm curious how Atwell accounts for the fact that - IF - this was a Roman concoction - why there is not more Roman historical material available then - if would have been completely in their interest of succeeding to have presented more material to actually document His existence at that time - yet, we're still left with so little that the very existence AT ALL is still questioned by many. Again and as always - the primary records are then by those who participated or spoke to those who did - seems like an odd way to build a Religion if you're actually building it, versus it just "happening".
  9. speaking in tongues

    Most of the theological dogma - call it doctrine for want of a better word - defines the nine things listed in 1. Cor. 12 as "nine gifts of the spirit" that are given individually by God, issued "severally" as He wills. I note the "severally" because it highlights the translation and contextual nuances that are involved - today, the average person reading that word would assume it means more than one, several this or that - as used in the Bible it has the meaning of "separately" and even "individually". The ESV renders it so: All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. Me, I don't fault anyone's efforts and give high marks for showing and trying but I don't think much has come out of the ex-Way community on this particular topic that's much different than what's already out and about despite the fact that the cost to learn their ex-Way versions of it has gone up quite a bit and consistently so, over the years. One Gift/Nine Manifestations isn't a widespread interpretation, so most of what you read on the topic of 1 Cor. 12 is going to be counter to that. A good middle ground is EW Bullinger, which will certainly show you ground zero of the textual work.
  10. speaking in tongues

    Requirement? No. Family, friends I trust, I might. Sometimes it's a burden to the other person to know a lot of details. But no, there's no biblical requirement which is why Romans 8:26 and 27 say what they do. People are curious animals though, always sniffing around. It's in the blood I guess. "No harm in asking" in either case. Could be harm in answering though. So someone says "well what's wrong honey? Yes, I'll pray for you How can I help? Is there anything I can do?"......that's fine. There's no imperative from the "Word of God" however to reveal specifics when prayer is requested. I do pray "in the spirit", and often. Speak in tongues. Don't make it a Jesus or the wall kind of thing. I have made an effort to separate the basic foundational things of "faith and practice" in my life from the people and the sources from which they come. It doesn't matter who or how I learned it from - some things I've learned from seeing what's WRONG as much as what's right. I give recognition to everything and everyone past, present and future that have come through my life however, even the dimwads and darfishes that I'd just as soon throw tomato sauce on and might given time and oppportunity. Yeh, I'm a tweeze. I'm fine with that. Some I could have done without but in a way those two verses in Romans also speak to that part of life - where I would pick and choose this way and that, perhaps God would see it differently. Can't change it now, either way that's for sure. So pray, in the spirit, speak in tongues, think well and positively, send the best mental and emotional messages you have into the ether. Cant' hurt. There's no imperative from the "Word of God" however to reveal specifics when prayer is requested.
  11. Song of the moment

    Who left the gate open...again.... <br> <iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/95E6ON8s8-0?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
  12. e-cigarettes, know anything about them?

    Congrats BikerBabe. That's great news and insight. I remember the first batch of "regular" liquid nicotine e-cig I tried, the full strength stuff. I got dizzy. At the time I had smoked ultra light generic brands for years, so that direct hit of strong nicotine was too much, almost made me sick. That's educational in and of itself, right there. It's very possible to use e-cig's to roll off the nicotine strength to 0. The liquid blend of 50/50 pg and vg with a flavoring is all you "vape" then, there's no nicotine at all. What they label "6 mg" is the x-light level for most blends. By the time you hit that you're not getting a lot of nicotine and of course, none of the chemicals that go into tobacco processing. A list - interesting reading. The e-cig industry is wise to move forward carefully but firmly. There's no reason that an alternative delivery system for nicotine that uses the same method as cigarettes to deliver it (inhalation) should be viewed differently than cigarettes. There's always the side effect too that with an e-cig you'll never set your bed on fire or accidentally burn a hole in your favorite shirt, sure. But it CAN be a method to quit smoking cigarettes, if that's your goal and every success story supports that. It can also be a method to quit inhaling nicotine completely, if that's your goal. After that whatever risk the e-cig "vaping" products contain are unrelated to the traditional and known risks of smoking tobacco. All the anecdotal data supports that the e-cig used for inhaling flavored vapor with or without the nicotine or chemicals provides a method for the pathological behaviors that a cigarette user has after quitting nicotine. Basically the "habit" part - you can have something in your hand that you put in your mouth and inhale and receive the same sense of ingestion you got smoking. It's like a pacifier for adult infant behaviors. /> And that will, in fact, allow a person to "quit" if they want to. I don't smoke, haven't for over a year. I stopped several years ago then started. Now, that's over and won't restart again. You get to a point after awhile where the smell and the smoke itself is just so stanky and horrible - well, I can't take it anymore, speaking for myself. I understand those who still do though. Now the distance between the effect and what I did to achieve it is like, far. Too far to get there from here anymore. /> Congrats!!! You won!!!! Savor the victory, you went a long way to achieve it.
  13. Song of the moment

    ...dandruff of the gods... <br> <iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/eGxQQIgEmgk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
  14. Song of the moment

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/nVyvJ_Jj6QI?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
  15. It is a higly polished presentation.

    Interesting! the physical aspects of man that resemble or are the "same" as other animals makes sense krys. Not that it proves anything that it makes sense but it does. I have several basic fundamentals that form the tenets of my beliefs and one is that the physical world of life on this planet is all very much alike, very similar and that there is great diversity in how those similarities exist and are in execution. Like, movement. Movement, defined as a form of change. All movement happens in a very restrictive context. A thing changes position, it's x y z coordinates. That change is perceived in relation to something else that holds positions. That change is understood by additional x y z coordinates, time. I could add coordinates for both subjective and objective measurement. It's all very interesting (to me) and incredibly diverse in execution but movement-change happens pretty much the same for everything that moves. So I wonder why that way and and not others? Why is movement-change limited to a thing being "here" and then being "there" through effort or influence....? That's really buggy to me and seems very unlikely in a reality plane that would be without ordered design....There may be other ways we don't know about but that isn't measurable. So the answer "because that's the way it is" or that's the way it evolved doesn't sound much different to me than "that's the way God designed it" because we can't know of an evolution that included a totally unique and different means of movement that got us to where we are now if we can't know of it, that it existed and there are no artifacts of it's existence.... For things to be the way they are, regardless of how they got that way, doesn't refute or deny that additional aspect of influence, in fact the physical world of movement-change thrives on influence. Another is the quality of consciousness, which is universally singular. There is a "oneness" to all conscious awareness. Another is the fact that reality only exists as it's understood by it's differences - no two things are the same. If things were in fact the same they wouldn't be two things they'd be one. So nothing is really ever "the same" as anything else, and definitely not anything that is self aware because that awareness of self is actually an awareness of not being something else as much as it is in being aware of it's own self. While the universe may contain unknown vastness, the universe we do know is one that is the way it is, not the way it's not. There's a border around diversity. And evolution for all it's possibility is really just a theory of probabilities, IMO. Designer and design can't be removed from the realm of reality without applying extreme prejudice and arrogance IMO. Not that that's what the video guy did, at all. But it's most important to not get tripped up on snakes and talking donkeys in the Bible, because in fact diabolical snakes and talking burros would be the least unusual things possible, IMO if I really remove the border around life and start to think about all the "what if's". Existence could be very different than it is for us, now. But it's not. Tomorrow's another working day though and I will have to get some rest, regardless. So it's alright, it's alright..../> .
  16. World wisdom is bad

    There's a lot of sections of the Bible that speak to "wisdom" - Gods', man's, one versus the other, being wise, getting wisdom, what it is, etc. etc. Generally speaking but not specifically to the original query of this thread something like a word study would help getting a fix on what it means in the Bible byfrom examining the various contexts in which it's used and attempting to understand the intent of its' usage. Along those lines a key verse to the topic of the thread is 1 Cor. 3:19 - For this world's wisdom is foolishness (absurdity and stupidity) with God, for it is written, He lays hold of the wise in their craftiness; And wisdom there, "sophia" or reasonings. Pretty simple. Gods' reasoning is of a higher status than mans' is the idea, I think. 1 Cor 3 covers the difficulty of people exhalting one person over another as a teacher or leader in that church. Apollos over Paul, that kind of thing. I think it's probably pretty simple to say that if 1. a person believes in God, Jehovah specifically, Father of Jesus Christ and they believe that 2. Jesus Christ is the Son of God and has a specific purpose as being sent forth from God to man - then there's been some level of reasoning and thought that's already occurred..... and while the Paul we read about in the N.T. seems to have done a great deal of work in understanding Christ in light of scripture and philosophy he also wrote that he wasn't presenting a message of "reasonings" but rather one of "power" - and I think that's a basic idea that's consistent with the overall message of the N.T. about Jesus Christ - that while there's thought and consideration that goes into understanding and accepting Jesus Christ as Son of God the reality of Christ is not one that comes from intellectual effort to conceptualize a "Jesus" as being what they/Paul believed He was - rather that Jesus Christ was revealed to be the Son of God by the will and intent of God - the "power" of God, not man's and they understood it by that revealing that God did. Again, a theme that runs through the N.T. - not by man's effort or will or works but God's through Christ. The wisdom of man produces hierarchies and tiers of authority, preferences towards thought and logic like what seems to be referred to in 1 Cor. 3 ( and just one example of the usages of "sophia" ) Paul seems to be saying there that the foundations, the platform and all of the underpinnings of the Christian message he and the other apostles taught were not based on that and not to be confused with other material that might support or even refute that, rather that their teaching, the message, the stuff they said they believed to be true, was the fundamental stuff. When I think of foolishness in wisdom and the conflict of "worldly" and "godly" I think of it in relation to the N.T. doctrine of Jesus Christ. There is an element of "faith" that underscores Christianity but Christianity could not be said to be based solely on faith, in it's origins. It's really what a group of people said happened, what they said they heard and saw and what they understood - believed - it to mean based on what happened and what they were told by Jesus Christ. There was a faith that they invested in what they'd experienced. One kind of reasoning could say "Jesus couldn't have healed a blind man and it could not have been a sign from God or a testament to who Jesus Christ was"........I'd assume their response would have been something like "I know - it's' nuts! But that's what happened and Jesus Himself spoke to us about it and much more. If you think that's crazy listen to this...."
  17. Eve had sex with Satan?

    Craig made half baked look well done. Smack the stupid out of that boy somebody, he's lighting his toe nails on fire again. Now Stayin' Alive - that's a different story. It only makes sense that John Travolta's horrendous dancing would be used by the Satanic kingdom to document and illustrate it's structure and goals. Yae.
  18. Who's left here...anybody?

    "We're all gone now."
  19. Eve had sex with Satan?

    One of perhaps many....just search for eve, craig and wap http://www.greasespo...__1#entry495119
  20. Uncle Harry and his DEBTS

    Innterestin'...........and The bible teaches in Romans, pay what's owed - taxes, honor, give all their due and in fact "owe" nothing by paying "everything", that is to "Love", which will thereby do all that's required. So while Craig may not have liked the tax codes and cost to do business - join the club, but there is a cost of doing business and the Way was a business. He just didn't like running it according to the requirements and direction that's given in the very book he publicly "taught" from. Uncle Harry-san knew how to juggle finances and debt. He did it very well. He was a "sharp" business man in his day. I remember when we lived there, and about 1975, we went to a local auction that we'd heard he and some others from the Way were going to. It was all locals, a few Wayfers, and it seemed business as usual, 40 -50 people looking over the estate stuff and what was being sold. We were looking around for furniture and stuff. Then HEW got there and it ran through the crowd, we could hear it .........."Harry's here, he's looking to buy...."....."I saw him, not sure what he's looking for, he's here though"..........there was a buzz around his presence and of course his check book. Action, H.E.'s here... I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, rather that's the result of his years of doing business in the area and being successful. If he'd arrived and owed everyone money or been a rube no one would have cared. My biggest lesson learned, looking back to how the Way built itself that first decade after PFAL was in the can, is that it grew too fast. Money was a problem - there was money, sure but by extending itself out to buy Emporia and then the Rome City campus it took on too much responsibility too fast and ran them with inexperienced people - "us". It was cute to say everyone had to "rise up" but hey - if it ain't working it ain't working. And given the number of times VPW canned and fired everyone every month and then rehired them all the next morning - it wasn't working. Unless you call a car that shuts down every mile and needs a jump, a car that "runs". Trusting in God to provide means that you do just that - you work within His guidance do just that - trust. That can mean waiting, for any number of reasons including taking the time to become the "faithful steward". Water under the bridge now but an interesting topic.
  21. Uncle Harry and his DEBTS

    The Way Nash leveraged financing through bank loans regularly to do it's business. Always did. VPW would act like a mouse had eaten his cat when he talked about it, how uptight he was about having to mortgage property or assets. But HEW did, with his business. Floated money to support the Way. He always made it sound like "back in the early years" as if it was a learning curve for him that he'd grown out of. Buuuuuuut, that was in the 70's.....no early years there. That was during the growth bubble of the Way. No one wants to be in debt over their means, have bills they can't pay, spending habits that don't reflect good money management and common sense. The Way would never have gotten off the ground and to any state of self sufficiency without 1. loans and 2. other people's contributions. PFAL made $ from the donation/fee but it wasn't enough to finance properties, growth, salaries, all of that. Now Martindale, something of a different story there. He apparently felt that the Way had enough $$$$ flowing to put all the Way Corps membership on 'salary', basically make them all paid employees of the Way. It was this period and the subsequent years that I'd assume put him on the rabid "no debt" policy track - he didn't want the Way to bear the debts of others and then when that plan tanked he wanted to feel better about having screwed so many people over so he lowered the bar of what others should expect and do. No money, no job, no real resume' to speak of - you're going to need to get your tail working unless like Craig you have other people's money paying your way and/or family to hit on that will pay your way. I only heard about it all second hand, I'd left the Way by then but - Honestly - he and Howard must have never done the math. When I heard about it after it had failed I was shocked. He was nuts, to be kind. I can't imagine how he thought it was going to work - probably some boosted juiced formula of ROI. Man, talk about naive. No heavy revvie there - what he did was like jumping off a bridge and expecting to land on your feet unharmed. If "God tells you" to do that, go for it. But you better have it in writing or you're going to be real sore real soon. As was he. And his view of what was "good financial planning" was illustrated by the fact that - reportedly - the Way almost went bankrupt because Craig didn't wake up to what was going on until Howard Allen told him they were running out of money and had only another couple months of resources to pay out. That's just - ka razee too. Beware all ye who enter - outside of a few well worn euphemisms and boy-howdies you can get from anywhere else, the Way gives terrible financial advice. Again - the "good" advice they give is available from 1,000's of other sources, including what your momma and daddy probably told you. They ain't pushing rocket science. Work, save, share what you can, collaborate as much as possible, spend wisely, partner considerately, borrow frugally, pay back timely. Repeat. Again. Doink.
  22. I would summarize thusly: The environment of POP, the platform for the events as they occured, was VPW's ill health and death. My opinion. He had been ill, very sick and it was a battle for at least 4 years (that I was aware of, perhaps more). He was sick, he was seeing Doctors, he tried a nutritional approach, then he had the surgery on his eye, and more time after that fighting his illnesses. He blamed his inability to both heal and die in a timely way (for Chissakes!) on the "unbelieving" of everyone else, mostly those closest to him like Don, Craig, Howard, and a few others. (Jaysus, he blamed so many people that worked right under his nose, so it's funny that all those years he himself was unable to keep mid level managers like Bob W and Tom whatsisnamewiththereadhair under control) He got sick, very ill, he had surgery, his health continued to go up and down and ultimately his health failed. The negative aspects of that are things many of us have or will deal with whether ourselves or others. Way theology redefined "health" in such as way as to mean that "perfect" health was always available but not always "received" due to lack of believing, be it our own or even the believing of others around us. Supportive believing feeds deliverance, negative feeds defeat is the basic flow of thought there. Biblically we all know the same verses on all sides - I believe what VPW taught on this, to clarify this one point - that deliverance is a product of the deliverance of God. God asks that we trust Him, rely on Him. Our trust provides the perpective through which we have our relationship with God but whether we do or not has little to do with what God does or doesn't "do", rather our destinies are governed by God's grace, in the big picture.... Regardless how you slice it all though, all of us are going to die at some point, barring alternative intervention. I think VPW acted like many people of his age and health at that time in their lives. He lashed out, blamed others, denied reality - he didn't like his condition - who would? Instead of chilling out and taking constructive measures to fix what he thought was wrong, he gave up - again, tired of the 'fight" with others. Given his lifetime of teaching all of us to "stand baby, no matter what anyone else does, you STAND, fight for the truth and the ministry that taught it to you babeee!"...... that's a little disappointing. It just is. He gave up and whined it out to Geer. In the end he was not that much different than anyone else, despite all the Word of God HE KNEW and was able to act upon. And at the same time he had his three closest bud's ready to kick him to the curb so they could get on with the Ministry Business as they wanted to conduct it. Talk about a flash of cold reality!
  23. In the Way we took years to do things others would have needed months to do. Or weeks. The "fixing" of the Way wasn't difficult. If the purpose was to get us all "back on the Word" - that's not a relative value. It's specific. And it's not a process, it's a state of mind. "Believing" - the Way had taught that point for years. Instant clarity. Once the Trustees "said" they accepted Geer's direction, that was really all you needed.... If that's all there was to it. Geer had no interest in anything related to "adultery" other than he wanted it kept a non issue. If the Trustees had trusted him and the others they'd been screwing around with, they'd have had no problem, they'd have been perfectly happy to keep on with what they were doing. They apparently were muttering on about how to manage the failed ministry that was failing because they would not do a few simple things and instead try to debate their positions with Geer. Who gave a crap? Not any of us. It would have been very simple for them to - in a word - suck it up and come open, clean and honest with everyone and literally, start over. Over the years I've come to know the looks on their faces and their manner of behavior - it's simply fear. Deathly fear. Under attack their character flaws provided the gaps for the fear of failure - which we'd dealt with so much bluster over the years and hours of teaching and blathering about conquering fear..... To tear them down and apart. What were they afraid of? Everything they'd been doing that they knew was wrong - the money, the affairs, the nods and passes they'd given to people over the years and the condemnations they'd given to others for the very same offenses... The unfairness, the greed, the pride. Building the campuses and staffing them for what - ? I believe they'd talked themselves through all their bureaucratic crap for so many years until they finally realized - we're screwed. We're getting whacked by the very guy we 1. got everything from and then 2. pushed aside. Like dominoes, it all fell - The "Passing of the Patriarch" reads like a Manual for Crafting Failure" - I'm sure Geer and others who live in that life stream still don't see that. But it's so clear reading it today, clearer than it was even then, hearing it for the first time - no matter how well intended or what excuses Geer made or would make today - it's a chronicle of the failure of the leadership of the ministry. Geer does point out quite clearly that the point of the "root" was to "feed" the tree - despite the fact that the use of the tree as a means of understanding the Way's ministry so clearly pointed out but ignored the true life of a growing tree - it's fruit. They insisted that the rotten "root" was tainting the entire "tree" - that's nothing more than being blinded to the vast strength that did exist in the ministry regardless of what these a-holes did or didn't do - the many people of the Way. All the focus on Tom this and Bob that and Craig and Don and Howard - guess what guys, there were 1,000's of people who God loved, cared for and was working in reGARDless of what they did and who in both truth and fact could have been a source of strength and inspiration if even the slightest bit of concern had been shown for them. Instead, they sat eating popcorn, sipping coffee and enjoying the transcontinental travel while they flushed their own futures down the toilet. And they KNEW, the Bustees knew dammed well Geer wasn't going away quietly or quickly. Corps were taking sides, sending him money, buying into his tapes, mailings and anything else they could get. The Big ShootOut at the OK Korral was fought with water guns.
  24. True, out. Nothing WAS ever specific. Geer's entire premise for "what was wrong" was based on one thing - that Dr. Weirwille had told him he believed the Way BOT, Directors, Corps Directors, WOW staff, all of the Way leaders, Corps members and anyone else with a phone or mail box that he'd ever taught the Bible too had 1. forsaken him 2. sold out to the adversary in one way or another and 3. didn't care or want to listen to him. That's not an exaggeration. That's the exact truth, as told to the Corps by Chris Geer. It only took about a minute to say, at several points in his public speech to the corps that year at Corps Week, and then there was the endless drubbing of the POP reading itself. But that was the sum and substance of the only things he said 'were wrong" - specifically. That Dr. Weirwille had been forsaken. Everyone therefore needed to "come back to the Word" which meant to come back to some - Very unclear Form of acceptance and activity that would show us all to be back in the Saddle again. It was bull - shi t. There was a lot of talk about "Prayer" - prayer's always a good thing but that became the recourse for everyone's confusion. Pray because no one has any idea what else to do. Desparation, for many of the pray-ers. Lots of talk about "believing" too - which didn't mean much to anyone who was already doing that to the best of their ability. It was, by any bibilical standards, or just those old dirty regular run of the mill human standards - a completely stanky mess. Bottom line though - it was a catalyst for change and that was a good thing - and could have been managed better and easier if anyone HAD REALLY WANTED to see change and progress at the Way. But none of them did once they got POP stuck up their butts, they were deathly afraid about what to do next. Funny - after all those years of pumping up their "believing" they caved at the first real challenge, which came from within their own ranks. Which in fact was something that VPW himself had identified while he was alive, would happen after he died...........so IMO the stew was brewing for a few years there, dissatisfaction, pride, envy, jealousy, greed - all the good ones were at work in that leadership group including Dr. Weirwille. Pride is the only real explanation for how a person of his history and investment would act in such a distorted way. I've always said though - Craig wasn't exactly a chicken shi t, in his day back then - so Geer was carrying some SERIOUS HOODOO to scare him into submission so quickly, SERIOUS cha cha in his bag.
  25. Geer Update

    I guess - by rights - I only mentioned because he does, and this is another opinion of mine aligned with the others - He does deserve to have his butt kicked from here to there and back, several times. He does. Not because he was a lowly sinner as were we all before we accepted Jay-zuz. But because he accepted Jesus and turned the trust others infused in him into a mean, spiteful and vigorously evil lifestyle. He did it with a group of people who - we said at that time - deserved to be treated with the utmost respect and love. He's also a pompously ostentatious blow hard whose very existence is an insult to people of morals and integrity everywhere, for the record. Last I heard he was franchising a teaching series, based on PFAL, and selling it for money. He built an evergreen cash stream out of the selling of God's Word. For that alone - he's scum. To me. In my book - scum. He had a chance to change and instead ramped up the product line so as to make a living off of it. People who do the work deserve the pay for it - that's why God says that He will reward us for our faithfulness and respond to our love for each other. God rewards. Geer wants you to pay. He wants his gold now. Fine, he's a weasel. Anyone that wants to tolerate that flea bag at this point, fine. Do it. Have at it. Talk to him, sure, if he falls into my lap one day when I don't have any Monk reruns to watch and the laundry's folded, sure. He needs help and guidance. Offer him a dime or give an inch to his obsequious pandering of the Devil's attentions - no. He can pay his own way. I don't need to say it. I just do anyway. I know - I'm as bad as he is, for being this way about it. Fine. I can live with that. There's room in this cootie platoon, move over. Nobody's perfect hey? Kind of gives us all a little room to breathe.