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I can kind of understand that for awhile but then I'd be moving on. As a ministry I can better understand it, giving others the opportunity to talk over their issues. But, that would be ministry. Service. Once I've talked something out I'm looking for fresh. About that, I think I've learned there's only one thing in the world that never gets old and that's the Holy Spirit. That's true. Songs get old, the presence of God never gets old.

And as the sun set slowly in the west and the cows mosied toward the safety of the barn... EDIT: Oops. I forgot the part about the smiling driver, waving gleefully as he sped past and continued down the road.

It's too early for me to share the personal and painful details of my life. I can tell you that with the support of God , my family, a psychiatrist, and a psychologist, I've been able to move forward. Although I don't resent TWI, I wouldn't recommend anyone attend TWI unless it's ONLY to receive information about Romans 10:9 and then leave in peace. Where do I start? Lies about the ministry's origin, lies about the content they teach, plagiarism, abuse. Leaders believe they are chosen by God because of VPW's misuse of Romans 13, and those leaders believe that since they are called by God, they can do whatever they please. If you are with the ministry, they will be with you; if you walk away from the ministry, all those friends.. will stop talking to you. They use people, they don't love them. They "research" the WORD OF God only to the extent that it doesn't contradict VPW. (CULT-RED FLAG) They have abused thousands of people around the world, and now that Martindale and Rivenbark are gone... they go around telling people to "forgive" and move forward with the "Love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation." It's not an honest organization that publicly and openly acknowledges mistakes; they only do so privately (at some point the will do) TIME TO COME HOME uhh? They don't teach people not to harm; They don't teach people not to harm; they demand that victims forgive abusers, and they keep the abusers in power. If you want details, send me a PM. God Bless U, PD: Vern seems like a good man, with good intentions. But he doesn't have the strength to weed out TWI's sectarian practices. (I met him 3 times)

To shine LIGHT on the darkness we've seen. Why would that be a bad thing?

And, thank you, Joe. Somehow I imagined us all as seniors, I think it's fascinating to hear from someone recently with The Way. I'd love to hear your story, too. Just got my call from the "Limb Coordinator", if that's what we're still saying. Wonderful, fascinating conversation. He's 65 and he's been around his whole life...I mean, he's telling me about VPW's tangential real life relationship with the people in the recent movie, Jesus Revolution. Yep, both of us, doing a comparison of Lonnie Frisbee and VPW. Along those lines, Ted Haggard, ever heard of him? I had the opportunity to speak to him after church once. I'm pretty much full. Gotta process. Gotta 'hear' from God. Still hope to hit the Rock and maybe now a "limb" meeting. If you spill your story out here, Joe, I'll be listening.

Thank you, Nathan

Raf can answer for himself, obviously, but I read his post as just showing you around - what's available, how to get it, and what to do with it once you've got it. Different forums for different topics. Discuss whatever you want. Only politics is out of bounds. Avoid politics and you're good.

For those of you asking. The Way is no longer supporting "tithing", in their STS they talk about "GIVE" and in the last fellowship I participated I was encourage to give freely. So they are not longer asking for 15% even for graduates of the advanced class ( I was) The Way has changed in the recent years? For sure, ¿ real changes? Not at all. TWI is bringing back the "good old years", uploading VPW teachings on their Youtube Channel, offering basically the same content. And hiding some of their core teachings in order to look more appealing to a younger crowd. Good people in TWI? For sure, you can find good people everywhere. You'll receive a lot of love in the beginning (Love-bombing uhh) ; as long as you don't commit to the ministry, they won't ask much of you. When you become deeply involved with TWI, the hell and abuse begin. And even though LCM's abusive tactics are no longer as prevalent, the emotional and psychological manipulation persists. I left TWI a little over two years ago. If you have any question about current TWI, just ask. Have a good day!

See, Vineyard librarian. Now, that's the kind of thing I find interesting. I'd love to hear this story. That's not specifically about The Way, however. Out of bounds?

Modcat5, It makes me wonder how tightly the lines are drawn. I think this is the only currently active thread and and I haven't posted to any others. This is the third time the boundaries have been laid out for me (second by a mod). Are you saying the forum is not about people who have been involved with the Way? Just, the Way itself. I find it very useful learning about the spiritual life of the person I'm talking to. Everyone has had their experiences with the Way and this one came away and became a Catholic. Another came away and sometimes listens to LCM- just, imagine that!? Somebody has been deeply traumatized by his experiences. And, atheists. Of course I have shared a lot about my Journey, my faith and ministries I've been associated with. Are you saying Im pushing some kind of limit? As far as I know I'm the only one interested in reaching out to them and the truth is, how much a class costs isn't something I've even thought about. I'm not into rocking boats. I just don't know how strict you are about confining the subject matter. Comparing the lives of VPW and Lonnie Frisbee, for instance, to me that's very interesting. OTOH, you could say that's not about the Way. I just don't know because this freewheeling exchange has been therapeutic for me. I'm not really in need of anything, however. There's Charity, now. Comparing IHOPKC and The Way, is that out of bounds?

I was never personally involved with IHOPKC. I learned of Bickle when a couple of his books were part of a Vineyard church library I was overseeing. If you type "bickle" in the search box above, you will see my posts about them. If you want to follow up on any of them, you can do it through those threads.

Fairly certain I am the only moderator whose identity is known and who visits all the time. When I am not modcat5, I am Raf. You can feel free to contact me on either profile. I give $15 a month to GSC and I take nothing. Pawtucket runs the place. I don't think his ID is secret but I also don't think he publicizes it, so not posting it here. The other mods are Modgellan and ModSerling, each of whom has chosen to remain anonymous. Lots of people here are Christians. Lots of people are not. Oldiesman, WordWolf, Allan are believers, though they probably disagree with each other on an issue or two. Chasity, StayedTooLong and I (Raf) are atheist. We try (and often fail) to confine our skepticism to the Atheism subforum in Matters of Faith. So here's the deal: THIS forum is ABOUT THE WAY. So I was hoping we could get some clarity here: If you would like to talk about what's going on at TWI TODAY, what they're teaching, how they are conducting themselves, how they are coming to terms with their past and recruiting for the future, awesome. As long as you're standing by what you "report" back to the group. If you would like to discuss the MERITS of their doctrines, we have a whole "Matters of Faith" section for that. I am very interested in seeing what TWI is up to, what they're charging for their classes, what The Rock is like, etc. Anyway, you do not have to GIVE to participate in GSC, but I'm not gonna lie: we appreciate every dime.

“The Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word.” -vpw Nothing. But. The Word. NOTHING. So, what is the Word? It’s whatever victor paul wierwille says it is. I was “taught” victor did all the “research” so I wouldn’t have to - oh, how he toiled 18hrs/day for years. Such selfless sacrifice on his part, I was “taught.” I should be so grateful. Oldies is right. It’s like any other religion. (TWI is indeed religion, no matter what they claim.) They are dogmatic, yet call themselves a “research ministry.” This is one of many contradictions illustrating their mathematic inexactness and scientific imprecision. No doubt they are nice. Super nice, I bet. Friendly, I’m sure. Be friends. Go to their church (yes, it’s a church), fellowship with them. Whatever. If anyone in TWI came on this board wanting to talk, I suspect they would be welcome. Wierwille apologists have always been welcome and free to post inexhaustible platitudes. Some here might have questions for them. I know I do.

Oops! This is the first thing that will get you in hot water. Make that boiling water. The Word takes precedence over everything... not God, not Christ, not family, not your friends. "You have no friends when it comes to The Word." (VPW). They don't come right out and say it, but, in essence, they worship The Word. "You have to put The Word above everything else." "Having done all, you just stand on The Word and don't let anyone budge you." (VPW). Oh, I could go on and on about how they exalt The Word (at, least, their interpretation of it) above all else, but I probably shouldn't, I have to go shopping for dental floss today..

I want to be friends with them. I want to realize our brother and sisterhood. It doesn't matter to me if they have some different beliefs. That's been the story of the past 40 years. The only issue is whether they will accept me. I'm not exactly virgin clay. I'm not an empty vessel to be filled. Now, here's a crazy thought. What if, down the road, some people currently with the Way came on this board wanting to talk. What would that look like?

State Fair Kitten with a Whip The Pleasure Seekers The Cincinnati Kid The Swinger Murderers' Row C.C. and Company 52 Pick-Up Magic George

Your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to (softly) challenge them on belief(s) you hold that challenges their narrative. LOL...

I just read this. All true. All true. Except, does that reflect the Way today? If so, they don't want me there, and I wouldn't want to be there. All love. Im not on a mission to mess with anything they are doing. Just, as I said, I stopped in to remember, and to feast on the beauty of the grounds. Serendipity, I met some really friendly and happy people. I talked to an old acquaintance from decades ago who had been a very emotionally well-adjusted individual- just nice and happy at the core. I do receive them as brothers and a sister in Christ. If like to be friends. I could do without any stage performances I've seen but I think talking would be both edifying and healing.

VPW suggested that. VPW said of PFAL "try it.. if it works for you, you have an answer, if not, kick it." But like ALL other religions, TWI has and have inviolate positions and interpretations that make it difficult if not impossible to believe something contrary. Stray from the narrative and you will be out quicker than a fly on s.... They aren't open to change, LIKE ANY OTHER RELIGION. I personally experienced this in TWI through the tithing teaching when I questioned them up and down on it, they were unmovable, and ready to defend the VPW narrative to the end. I really and truly wish I can say they wanted us to read, study and interpret the bible for ourselves but my experience differs. And don't think for a minute that the Catholic Church doesn't do likewise. How long do you think I'd last there if I preach PFAL there? LOL x 2 ...

I don't know how this is going to go over but here it is. No end of the dead alive, angels, "caught up" to Heaven, visitations of the Lord etc, etc. I used to attend a small gathering in Jacksonville called All Things Restored. In one of their meetings, different ones talked about their out of body experiences. Now, the Bible is not my God, God is my God, but the Bible is the owner's manual for my life with God. Just remember most of Christendom lived their lives without even having a Bible. I'm still in the process of reconciling everything I'm hearing with the word.

This has been my experience as well, the last few years attending mass. No legalism. No compulsion. Haven't heard a peep about "tithing", "abundant sharing".... although it's always "available" when folks come around. Nobody watches you to see if you're giving. Nobody cares.

Nice words Joyful Sound :)...Me and my family prospered after LEAVING TWI...I put it down to seed sown years previously. We still hold onto much of the 'Word' and occasionally listen to some of LCM's latest teachings (have learnt even more, newer stuff from that) but do not fellowship with any particular church as almost always within the first 5 minutes they're preaching trinity, or the dead are alive or some such diatribe...Psalm 119:104 all day...!!

Way Productions...God Awful Hillsong music...inspirational, transformational...

My fellowship commander, an eternally committed Corps grad, did not "teach" me to follow Jesus Christ. Instead, he "taught" me to stand on the shoulders of victor. Jesus Christ was merely a name to be uttered - the name of a bastard Jew far away in absentia. The one who claims to speak for God is surely the one who does not. No one can jump over a barn.

Yeah, it's like I said, if I'm the only one who has experienced redeeming qualities with the Way I'll just need to be getting on my way. No offense. All love. We're just doing something different. Keep in mind, I haven't done much at all since the 1980s. I've experienced flaws. Serious Flaws. The people I talked to at HQ recently, they've experienced flaws too. For anyone traumatized, I want to give you whatever space you need.