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Yeah, see. That kinda leaves us between a rock and a hard place. We were either following the teachings of a man with devil spirits or he was wrong about what he taught. That means he could have been wrong about...well ... anything.

no worries raf...

I consider myself humanist as well. Since there is no hierarchy in humanism, no one really gets to define it. This website gathers various definitions that permit us to ascertain some kind of consensus. For me, it boils down to the following: * No gods (or devils) or spirits, etc. * Morality is derived from human experience and based on both empathy and the greater good. * Humankind is responsible for its future and well-being. There's much more to it, of course.

Rest is a very good thing for a person and her (or his) mind to do. Best wishes.

Thank you for making this happen. Now, people looking for updates on a 17-year old topic won't think there was news when there was not, and the new guy who had something to say has the appropriate venue in which to say it. Naturally, now that this is the case, we've probably heard the last of him.

Thanks Rocky. I'm giving it all a rest. I'll check in for topics of interest though and perhaps post about those.

Here’s what I know. My life is healthier since walking away from Christianity. It's healthier mentally and emotionally which is inspiring me to work on being healthier physically. It has freed up my time since there is no longer a need/desire to work on a 24/7 relationship with a god that supposedly wanted one with me. I’m now going to let go of the need/desire to learn more about why the bible was not inspired by any kind of God. Simply put, I want to be able to stop thinking about god to the extent that only the rare thought will pop into my head and then quickly dissipate. Thanks everyone for your input – it was much appreciated!

Not at all, unless you consider sorcery a good thing. But some call it a record, to your point.

Folks are certainly entitled to those beliefs, but as Christopher Hitchens once said, "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." The new heavens and new earth are an assertion. Accusing people of being blind to them is a convenient way of sidestepping the fact that there is no evidence in favor of the assertion. Perhaps we are blind to the new heavens and the new earth for the same reason we are blind to pixie dust and the Loch Ness Monster: They are figments of the imagination of human beings. There is an end to our world here in the physical. But that doesn't make the spiritual more important unless the spiritual can be established to exist. I remember writing in another thread (and in a comPLETEly different context) that if you step back far enough in time, you can dismiss and minimize just about any atrocity, especially those committed in the name of a god. So God tells you to kill a baby, and you do it, figuring the baby gets eternal life in heaven/paradise, so from the eternal perspective, how much harm did you REALLY do? Yeah, that's a problem there. And it's not academic. Don't make me look up the verses where God commands Israel to kill heathen babies, or the honest-to-evilness exposition by the contemptuous William Lane Craig who argued with a straight face that the real victims of that episode were the Hebrew soldiers who had to carry it out. [Yes, he really said that. No, it's not out of context. Yes, he was serious]. Anyway, it's a LITTLE unfair to cman to make this point in response to what he posted, as I am SURE his meaning was much more benign. Nonetheless, I am compelled to respond with my reasons for rejecting the words of that post. [I re-read this post and I seem a little harder on cman than I intended. I hope I can convey that while I disagree with what was written, I do so respectfully, and my heart is to explain why. Things got a little hairy between us a couple of weeks ago and I am not intending to resume any hostility that I previously exhibited].

nothing wrong with dumping or keeping religious beliefs-doesn't matter that much anyway get in touch with yourself, whatever that means to you, grow a garden or get a dog, spend some time with nature, release yourself from everything to get connected to everything in newness of your spirit

It's horrible that you had that placed on your shoulders at such a young age. I have listened to other adults share about their lives as kids and living with a deep fear of Satan, not knowing for sure if they're saved or not, being left behind when the rapture occurs, of going to hell. If whatever a parent teaches their child about God causes them to live with such fear, it is a form of child abuse. I think this is an interesting quote from the book "The Argument Against God:" It would, though, be far better if religious doctrines and systems were not taught to people until they had attained maturity. If this were the case, how many would subscribe to a religion? Without being given a predisposition through childhood indoctrination to think there might be something in one of the many and conflicting religious beliefs on offer, the likely answer would surely be: not very many."

Hebrews 11:6 NIV 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. I underlined the words which I believe shows that God expects believers to have absolute certainty in him and in the "word" he has given them. It doesn't matter whether we agree on what this verse is saying. The point of my post was to show the dilemma that bible-believing Christians find themselves in when it comes to God. Unless there is a verse that proves differently, there is no room for uncertainty when it comes to him. Being between a rock and a hard place happens because even when a Christian is certain that God exists and therefore earnestly seeks this all-powerful and all-loving God in a time of need, it is never certain that he will show up and reward you for the trust you placed in him. (Apparently there are legal loopholes attached to his promises.) In other words, God expects certainty from believers when all the while, he is an uncertain God. It's one of the main reason why I think this concept of god as shown in the bible was thought up by men for whatever reason. Here's to peace (an alternative for beer in my case)

In the foundational class, you're told you have unlimited power to do whatever you can imagine. By the time you get to the advanced class, you're walking on eggshells, looking over your shoulder, making sure the adversary doesn't creep up on you and snuff you out for moving the word. Power for abundant living indeed. Don't leave, though, unless you want to end up a greasespot in the road by midnight.

Glad you found medical answers and have enjoyed a rich interaction with your grandson. The JWs are real bad about the medical stuff and superstition with how they refuse any blood transfusions due to some strange scripture interpretation. I blame the Adv Class for all the stuff about devil spirits. It was like Harry Potter crossed with conspiracy theory with some OT reading to lull the hearers to sleep. It is interesting to see the end result of all of that is driving people away from faith.

Yes. Let it be split. Keep it in About the Way and title new thread "LCDIAZ WC 17."

Early blood testing showed my grandson was born with a rare gene deletion which caused him to require life-saving surgery when he was a day old and two subsequent major surgeries to completely correct a physical abnormality. We were told that as he grew older, autism may also be a possibility because of this deletion. Fundamentalist beliefs can cause people to refuse medical intervention for themselves or their children because it meant doubting god's ability to heal. I knew the physical reasons for my grandson's health issues but still fell a few times for the doctrine that certain illnesses can be caused by devil spirits. Not anymore now.

socks I really enjoyed reading your post and logic and reasoning. I love the conclusion arriving at serendipity as a common goal. Polar opposites to force feeding a new Plaffy down the worlds throat with a trademark.

Hi Rocky, I've been thinking a lot about this line you wrote. At first, it seemed as if you misinterpreted what I had said because I've always had great compassion for my grandson's health challenges. But apart from this assumption about you, there was still something really bothering me, and so I googled "is there fear in compassion" and the website below came up. In it, compassion was defined as having two parts: "Sensitivity to the causes of suffering in one’s self and others” (Part A), combined with the “commitment to try to alleviate and prevent it” (Part B)." It also said: "However, when there are FBRs (Fears, Blocks & Resistances) regarding giving Compassion to Others, this is often due to fears such as: “I will lose something” / “Others will take advantage of me” / “I cannot tolerate others’ distress”. And this was exactly the thing that was bothering me. During those times when I thought my grandson might have had a devil spirit, it was very frightening because I didn't "belieeeve" I could cast one out and in that sense, I could not tolerate (handle, help with) his distress. And that's when, I realize now, that although I was with him physically, mentally I was on some fricking Luciferian planet far removed from the earthly reality that a sudden electric surge had disrupted neurons in his brain causing him to have a seizure. With that kind of delusional mindset, I wasn't as effective with the second part of being compassionate as I could have been. It is very distressing to admit this, but it's important because it's one way that the bible, which teaches there are devil spirits, is harmful. I'm learning that there are many other biblical teachings that cause harm mentally and emotionally. It isn't just the way twi taught "the word," it was parts of the bible itself. I'm reading a good book right now titled "The God argument : the case against religion and for humanism" by A.C. Grayling. One last thing, I want to share about the joy that my grandson has brought to my life. His way of being is unique to him and I have come to value every part of him - his way of finding pleasure in certain things, his desire to interact with us, his growth and development, how he loves to have his long hair brushed when he used to hate it. There is so much more I could share, but most of all, I love his smiles. The other day he was laughing with his mouth closed which I think was a new experience for him by the look on his face. You could tell he was enjoying doing it and the longer he did it, the more my husband and I began to laugh out loud with him. He actually had us in stitches before he was finished. https://mi-psych.com.au/fears-of-compassion/

Ok, this past Thursday, SEVENTEEN YEARS after this thread had DIED DOWN, the new post began, majorly hijacking the thread. (Page two.) People keep checking in, thinking there's some news about the thread topic, and are disappointed to find out this thread now has nothing to do with this thread. Am I the only one who thinks this thread should be split in two, with the old thread intact and a new thread with the new...whatever this is... hosting this completely unrelated discussion?

A not-so-great thought just came to me. The above reference I made about dancing and the manifestation of the spirit had absolutely nothing to do with a certain former twi production. I was thinking purely of the power of music and dance that I felt while watching these two clips.

I used to disregard your posts about there being myths in the Bible as simply "inconceivable." But then, one crack led to another crack and .... then, there was a letting go. Thank you for your reply.

nice write-up socks, on those 2 verses with considerations of other perspectives I don't think some literal interpretation can satisfy the very human need to know, or even a curiosity to see things more clearly. Time to God is not a thing to put into the text I would think, so to us it's a tough concept to see it without a framework of assumed reality.

And Greek, Roman, Norse and any other mythologies. Myth noun A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society. Genesis contains the Judeo-Christian creation myth. It's all about stories. Stories around which, for X number of years (sometimes fractions, sometimes whole years) many of us based our values and morals and that which formed the bases of how we made decisions and around which we guided the direction of our lives. Clearly, there are MANY stories that have formed bases of how societies (and cults) organized individual lives and groups. I rejoice with you (if you're rejoicing) for the new found freedom that enables or enabled you to view your grandson with more compassion and reality. I'm also glad there's a place called the Greasespot Cafe allowing you to write and process what you're going through on your path to freedom of mind and heart.

There were a few times when I actually thought my non-verbal, autistic grandson may have had a devil spirit(s) because of how physically agitated he would become sometimes and then, especially, when he began to have seizures. The seizures had become myoclonic in nature where his head would jerk severely downwards and forcibly hit whatever was in front of him. He had regular black eyes, bruises, cuts and bumps on his forehead and face. I've let go of those thoughts since deconverting. Doing so was like coming out of a freakish h..llhole where I feared not being able to cast out a devil spirit from my own grandson and entering a bright and sane place where such thoughts mean nothing because devil spirits are not real - they don't exist! (Since then, my grandson's neurologist changed his meds, and he no longer has those extreme jerks.) During this time, a friend wanted to encourage me to trust God again and shared how their teenage son prayed for God to remove demons from someone appearing to have a heart attack and the person instantly was delivered of their symptoms. I had no way of knowing if the healing was real or not, but I did know how off-putting the story was to me. It only reinforced my determination to never go back to that "world" again.

Interesting topic, my response is to what the meaning of Genesis 1:1 and 2 is and considering the Way's teaching on it, going back to VPW and PFAL. VPW seemed to have accepted the interpretation of Genesis 1: 1 and 2 from Bullinger's work, who held that the Hebrew word "hayeha" translated and meant became, rather than was (the root is "to be"). So with the words tohu va boho he read it "became without form, and void"....as if to say - the earth was created one way in verse 1 - and then it became without form and was void". “form and void” - I seem to recall that phrase isn't actually 2 things but was a kind of hebrew homophone....I may not have that exactly right, but the best I understand it's meaning is that it isn't two different things - not form, and void as the english reads in KJV - but it describes a formless state and basically means no form, formless or empty - which adds a very interesting context to the record then, not that it's literal but rather simply the idea of an emptiness, formless(ness), a state of not being filled or put into order....and so on. So verses 1 and 2 could read something like "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was without form". Two things are covered - the heavens (whatever that is) and the earth (whatever this is) and the earth is, at that time, without form. The bibles books cover a history of the earth and mankind and their creator, God. That's the perspective of the narrative, God and His creation, specifically the earth and mankind. A lot of other things are covered too but it would seem clear the vast detail, such as there is, deals with those things, not the whole of everything else that was or is. VPW seemed to take the Bullinger translation as a way to explain how the earth could have millions of years of history - a first heaven and earth in which God created…whatever it was He created and then between verses 1 and 2, the earth became messed up, formless, in a degraded, destroyed state. Or - 1 and 2 are a continuous thought - in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth and the earth was without form and darkness was upon the face of the deep and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Some research notes a use of the figure of speech polysyndeton in the greek text and used throughout Genesis 1. Forms of anaphora are commonly used in any language to add impact, as a rhetorical tool. It’s still used today, a lot. So again, to me Genesis reads as more or a continuous set of statements that go through the creation record, rather than what amounts to a Grand Canyon size hole between verse 1 and 2. And of course, there’s no real detail of any kind about what that verse 1 earth would have been like, other than to offer a biblical explanation for fossils we find today from millions of years ago that seemingly contradict the record in Genesis. So it is a huge assumption that aside from a few verses that refer to what are interpreted as related events (Lucifer’s fall from “heaven”, etc) there is never any reference in the Bible at all to what that first creation would have been like. Even the idea that Adam and Eve were told to “replenish” the earth I understand to mean it to “fill” the earth, not re fill it, again. Granted, the biblical authors weren’t scientists or archaeologists but from their perspective in the human history it could seem to make more sense that there’d be reference to what would have been if there was ANY knowledge of it, passed down over time. But there isn’t, really. So while Adam and Eve wouldn’t have necessarily known what had come before, the author would have had to, to some extent if the “became void” was the correct translation…..sot to me anyway, there’s mostly a void of that making any sense after I read the rest of the bible. As a researcher VPW struggled with his linear literalist thinking. On the one hand he wanted the Bible to be taken literally where it could be, while at the same time informing any textual translation with huge amounts of figurative and historical information (“orientalisms”, figures of speech and context considerations that spanned generations, etc etc) Die hard Weirwille-ites want to make that out to be a strength but over the years it seems obvious he used it all to support his earliest convictions, not add to them or certainly not to change them. But to be perfectly honest, I don’t know for sure about Genesis 1:1 and 2 - there’s a lot of translation work that supports a bunch of conclusions. I know all of the other references that try to fit some history into the space between verses 1 and 2 aaaaaaand, I'm not so sure. Today I will say I tend towards it being a continuous creation record and 1 and 2 that moves right into 3 and forward. "YMMV". Hope this adds to the discussion.

Thanks for the replies. Growing up in this cult really did a number on me. I was afraid to ask questions and instead of thinkign that was not OK, I thought I was being decieved by Satan and it was him who was putting the questions in my mind. Think about being 9 years old and thinkign Satan himself is weaponizing your thoughts as a way to attack the Way. It's soul crushing. I just wanted the devil to leave me alone. In reality the devil had no interest in me at all. ugh